As far as I know the double-bladed scimitar is not mentioned in the 2024 PHB on what it's mastery is going to be. I suppose it should be nick as the scimitar one is nick as well - that way you can make special bonus attack as part of the Attack action.
What are your thoughts or is there any information on how the weapon will work?
No information available. It would not get Nick though because it requires the weapon to be Light and the DBS it isn't a Light weapon. Based on the requirements for each property in UA8, the DBS would have to get Slow or Sap, since it isn't inherently Finesse, nor Versatile, nor Heavy, nor Light. Personally, I think Sap makes the most sense since I could easily see someone making flashy moves with it to distract or deflect an enemy's attack.
That would just make it a bad weapon tho. Sap and an extra BA attack is sooo bad compared to just dual wielding two scimitars.
It's still very powerful, it gets you a BA attack with your ability score modifier for free. Whereas polearm users need a feat and two-weapon fighters need a fighting style. But its no longer objectively better than every other weapon in the game, which is a good thing.
That would just make it a bad weapon tho. Sap and an extra BA attack is sooo bad compared to just dual wielding two scimitars.
It's still very powerful, it gets you a BA attack with your ability score modifier for free. Whereas polearm users need a feat and two-weapon fighters need a fighting style. But its no longer objectively better than every other weapon in the game, which is a good thing.
100% Frankly I don't think we'll see an official ruling on DBS unless/until they release a new Ebberon book, and even if we do, I'd not be surprised if DBS gets either forgotten or just coverted into a polearm.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
As far as I know the double-bladed scimitar is not mentioned in the 2024 PHB on what it's mastery is going to be. I suppose it should be nick as the scimitar one is nick as well - that way you can make special bonus attack as part of the Attack action.
What are your thoughts or is there any information on how the weapon will work?
If they change the stats a bit sure nick would work. Make it light, make it do 1d8 with a bonus action(without weapon mastery) "off hand" attack that does 1d6 no attribute bonus as per normal off hand attacks without weapon fighting, have it work with 2 weapon style. So its base damage is slightly better than wielding two scimitars but 2 scimitars offers a bit more versatility as you can choose not to wield one and grab a shield, throw a dagger with your off hand etc where as here you are locked into it being two handed.
You'd have to add some exception to the rule language about why two weapon fighting feat works with a two handed weapon but so be it.
But given I doubt they want to add exception t the rule language it will probably be sap or something.
It never was "objectively better than every other weapon in the game". It's a fun concept and should have been updated.
People took polearm mastery just for that bonus action 1d4 attack and the weapon gave it for free. Admittedly though this did not work with heavy weapon mastery so yeah I am not sure it was the best. We never did Eberon so I can;t say we tested it out to see.
Barbarian in my party is using it right now for just that reason. It's objectively better if you're not looking to go all in on feats.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That is a fairly big if. If someone goes all in on feats and ends up better than you not going all in but putting it into stats or whatever, then its not really objectively better.
That is a fairly big if. If someone goes all in on feats and ends up better than you not going all in but putting it into stats or whatever, then its not really objectively better.
Bajeez, it is objectively better than any other weapon until you've received 3 ASIs/Feats (i.e. level 8 fighter or level 12 anyone else) which is the majority of most D&D campaigns.
I do not care about edge cases like level 20 one shots with hyper optimized characters, though I suspect by reducing the need for ASIs/Feats one could still make a more powerful DBS wielder with some crazy multiclass than other weapons because with a half-feat one can also make it finesse so you can do some crazy Barbarian-Rogue multiclasses with it. Plus the GWF fighting style gives the DBS more of a boost than any other weapon b/c of the dice structure of its attacks. So you can eek out a lot of advantages for it over other builds but I'm already spending more time responding here than it's really worth.
Make your players as powerful as you want through any kind of HB that you want, it's your game do whatever you think is fun, but don't bother asking if it is/isn't balanced.
That is a fairly big if. If someone goes all in on feats and ends up better than you not going all in but putting it into stats or whatever, then its not really objectively better.
Bajeez, it is objectively better than any other weapon until you've received 3 ASIs/Feats (i.e. level 8 fighter or level 12 anyone else) which is the majority of most D&D campaigns.
I do not care about edge cases like level 20 one shots with hyper optimized characters, though I suspect by reducing the need for ASIs/Feats one could still make a more powerful DBS wielder with some crazy multiclass than other weapons because with a half-feat one can also make it finesse so you can do some crazy Barbarian-Rogue multiclasses with it. Plus the GWF fighting style gives the DBS more of a boost than any other weapon b/c of the dice structure of its attacks. So you can eek out a lot of advantages for it over other builds but I'm already spending more time responding here than it's really worth.
Make your players as powerful as you want through any kind of HB that you want, it's your game do whatever you think is fun, but don't bother asking if it is/isn't balanced.
You making hyperbolic claims does not make them true. I suspect a basic 1 feat heavy weapon build would keep pace with this in most cases. Maybe for like a warlock or ranger with per attack increasing spells they would edge it out. But at its core this weapon at level 1 will do 3d4+stat X 2, a human with heavy weapon mastery would do 2d6+10+stat times 75%. Those numbers will edge towards the heavy weapon guy I think. Is it better than 2 scimitars sure, better than 2 rapiers after feat investment probably with the appropriate fighting styles, but i don't think it would be blowing it out of the water either.
You aren't accounting for the chance to hit properly, in which case GWM always comes out on top. The -5 penalty to hit decreases your chance to hit from 65% to 40% which largely negates the bonus to damage on average: for that 1st level character 2d6+3 * 0.65 = 6.5 DPR, 2d6+3+10 * 0.4 = 8 DPR. Versus a double bladed scimitar: 3d4+3*2 *0.65 = 8.8.
If we add in GWF fighting style: each d6 goes from 3.5 on average to 4.17 on average, each d4 goes from 2.5 on average to 3 on average (d10 goes from 5.5 to 6.3 average damage) DBS = 9.75 GWM = 8.5
If at 4th our feat-hungry build picks of PAM, while are DBS picks up any feat/ASI that boost STR: DBS = 65% * (3d4+4*2) = 11.05 GWM = 35% * (1d10+3+1d4+3+10) = 12.4
and we finally have GWM edging ahead, but that's only if we give the GWM a species trait (extra feat) but not the DBS. Now the DBS is free to take any species they want so they could get 4d6 extra damage per encounter from Bugbear, or they could get their level extra damage per SR from Goblin, or they could get 1/day extra damage 1/turn equal to their prof-bonus from Aasimar. If we are playing the Optimization game then Bugbear is definitely out best choice.
9.1 extra damage per encounter means an encounter has to last a minimum 7 rounds for V.Human GWM to out DPR Bugbear DBS.
If we keep going, assuming both characters are Fighters and taking the same subclass (so we can ignore those bonuses in the comparison):
6th level: <- note that this is the "3 feat/ASI" threshold I mentioned we've just bumped it up to 6th level by using Fighter & VHuman. DBS + Bugbear has maxed out their STR, and increased another ability score by 1 giving them:
Meaning finally the GWM+VHuman has a reasonable chance of equalizing as it takes only 4 rounds for PAM+GWM to catch up to our Bugbear bonus, that is unless we Action Surge on our first turn....
It's objectively better than using two scimitars as well.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
You aren't accounting for the chance to hit properly, in which case GWM always comes out on top. The -5 penalty to hit decreases your chance to hit from 65% to 40% which largely negates the bonus to damage on average: for that 1st level character 2d6+3 * 0.65 = 6.5 DPR, 2d6+3+10 * 0.4 = 8 DPR. Versus a double bladed scimitar: 3d4+3*2 *0.65 = 8.8.
At level 5 with no other changes and now 2 attacks the GWM with the same accuracy is hitting 4d6+8+20x.4=16.8 double scimitar is doing 5d4+12x.65=15.9, the higher the accuracy goes the more it goes toward GWM the lower it goes the more it goes to dual scimitar. This isn't some edge case build, its pretty basic. And even without human the numbers are not that far off the heavy weapon guy would be doing 4d6+26=40x.35 or 14. The thing is while it is good for when you don't build into it, you can't really build into it if you want to. Its not a two weapons, its not a polearm, its not a heavy weapon, its not finesse, you are not using a shield. Its two handed so i guess you can take the pretty crappy two handed weapon style which with d4s is % wise a decent shift.
i am not calculating crits but that is a bit of a wash, heavy weapon has its perk from that, 2d6 crits better than 2d4 or 1d4, but more attacks are more opportunities to crit.
It's objectively better than using two scimitars as well.
Sure two weapon style kind of sucked in 2014. If you lean into it you could use rapiers and have a +1 AC so its a bit closer, and the rapiers work with sneak attack so the rogue would prefer those.
You aren't accounting for the chance to hit properly, in which case GWM always comes out on top. The -5 penalty to hit decreases your chance to hit from 65% to 40% which largely negates the bonus to damage on average: for that 1st level character 2d6+3 * 0.65 = 6.5 DPR, 2d6+3+10 * 0.4 = 8 DPR. Versus a double bladed scimitar: 3d4+3*2 *0.65 = 8.8.
At level 5 with no other changes and now 2 attacks the GWM with the same accuracy
Please see my post above I included level 6 there - if we use a species bonus for the GWM build, we should be using one for the DBS build as well and if we are going optimal choice for GWM we should be going optimal choice for DBS - that's how you do fair comparisons. You can't compare X to X+Y because obviously adding Y will make it better (ok I need to stop this line of argument now before I go on a rant about AI and their biased comparisons)... anyway...
Without Variant Human, GWM + PAM builds suffer even more from poor accuracy which means they don't actually do all that much more damage baseline. The benefit of GWM only "comes online" by stacking various features / spells that increase your accuracy or by assuming your enemy as terrible AC (this latter is a common cheat for online "optimizers").
while it is good for when you don't build into it, you can't really build into it if you want to
You can, just not with the standard ways. The Revenant Blade feat makes DBS finesse and gives a +1 AC which allows you to add on Sneak Attack and potentially build for tankiness by taking Defense fighting style (gives a total +2 AC effectively a Shield while also using a two-handed weapon), you can likewise stack on anything that buffs damage of your weapon since all your attacks are being made with the same weapon - Magic Weapon, Artificer Infusions, Divine Favour etc... these are all far more effective on DBS than GWM-builds because of their improved accuracy - note that even as simple as a Flametongue Greatsword can largely invalidate using GWM power attacks. But the vast majority of "builds" don't come online until level 8+ which is in the tail end of a campaign so you'll only get to play them for a few session during normal play.
As far as I know the double-bladed scimitar is not mentioned in the 2024 PHB on what it's mastery is going to be. I suppose it should be nick as the scimitar one is nick as well - that way you can make special bonus attack as part of the Attack action.
What are your thoughts or is there any information on how the weapon will work?
No information available. It would not get Nick though because it requires the weapon to be Light and the DBS it isn't a Light weapon. Based on the requirements for each property in UA8, the DBS would have to get Slow or Sap, since it isn't inherently Finesse, nor Versatile, nor Heavy, nor Light. Personally, I think Sap makes the most sense since I could easily see someone making flashy moves with it to distract or deflect an enemy's attack.
That would just make it a bad weapon tho. Sap and an extra BA attack is sooo bad compared to just dual wielding two scimitars.
It's still very powerful, it gets you a BA attack with your ability score modifier for free. Whereas polearm users need a feat and two-weapon fighters need a fighting style. But its no longer objectively better than every other weapon in the game, which is a good thing.
100% Frankly I don't think we'll see an official ruling on DBS unless/until they release a new Ebberon book, and even if we do, I'd not be surprised if DBS gets either forgotten or just coverted into a polearm.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It never was "objectively better than every other weapon in the game". It's a fun concept and should have been updated.
If they change the stats a bit sure nick would work. Make it light, make it do 1d8 with a bonus action(without weapon mastery) "off hand" attack that does 1d6 no attribute bonus as per normal off hand attacks without weapon fighting, have it work with 2 weapon style. So its base damage is slightly better than wielding two scimitars but 2 scimitars offers a bit more versatility as you can choose not to wield one and grab a shield, throw a dagger with your off hand etc where as here you are locked into it being two handed.
You'd have to add some exception to the rule language about why two weapon fighting feat works with a two handed weapon but so be it.
But given I doubt they want to add exception t the rule language it will probably be sap or something.
People took polearm mastery just for that bonus action 1d4 attack and the weapon gave it for free. Admittedly though this did not work with heavy weapon mastery so yeah I am not sure it was the best. We never did Eberon so I can;t say we tested it out to see.
Barbarian in my party is using it right now for just that reason. It's objectively better if you're not looking to go all in on feats.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That is a fairly big if. If someone goes all in on feats and ends up better than you not going all in but putting it into stats or whatever, then its not really objectively better.
Bajeez, it is objectively better than any other weapon until you've received 3 ASIs/Feats (i.e. level 8 fighter or level 12 anyone else) which is the majority of most D&D campaigns.
I do not care about edge cases like level 20 one shots with hyper optimized characters, though I suspect by reducing the need for ASIs/Feats one could still make a more powerful DBS wielder with some crazy multiclass than other weapons because with a half-feat one can also make it finesse so you can do some crazy Barbarian-Rogue multiclasses with it. Plus the GWF fighting style gives the DBS more of a boost than any other weapon b/c of the dice structure of its attacks. So you can eek out a lot of advantages for it over other builds but I'm already spending more time responding here than it's really worth.
Make your players as powerful as you want through any kind of HB that you want, it's your game do whatever you think is fun, but don't bother asking if it is/isn't balanced.
You making hyperbolic claims does not make them true. I suspect a basic 1 feat heavy weapon build would keep pace with this in most cases. Maybe for like a warlock or ranger with per attack increasing spells they would edge it out. But at its core this weapon at level 1 will do 3d4+stat X 2, a human with heavy weapon mastery would do 2d6+10+stat times 75%. Those numbers will edge towards the heavy weapon guy I think. Is it better than 2 scimitars sure, better than 2 rapiers after feat investment probably with the appropriate fighting styles, but i don't think it would be blowing it out of the water either.
You aren't accounting for the chance to hit properly, in which case GWM always comes out on top. The -5 penalty to hit decreases your chance to hit from 65% to 40% which largely negates the bonus to damage on average: for that 1st level character 2d6+3 * 0.65 = 6.5 DPR, 2d6+3+10 * 0.4 = 8 DPR. Versus a double bladed scimitar: 3d4+3*2 *0.65 = 8.8.
If we add in GWF fighting style: each d6 goes from 3.5 on average to 4.17 on average, each d4 goes from 2.5 on average to 3 on average (d10 goes from 5.5 to 6.3 average damage)
DBS = 9.75
GWM = 8.5
If at 4th our feat-hungry build picks of PAM, while are DBS picks up any feat/ASI that boost STR:
DBS = 65% * (3d4+4*2) = 11.05
GWM = 35% * (1d10+3+1d4+3+10) = 12.4
and we finally have GWM edging ahead, but that's only if we give the GWM a species trait (extra feat) but not the DBS. Now the DBS is free to take any species they want so they could get 4d6 extra damage per encounter from Bugbear, or they could get their level extra damage per SR from Goblin, or they could get 1/day extra damage 1/turn equal to their prof-bonus from Aasimar. If we are playing the Optimization game then Bugbear is definitely out best choice.
DBS + Bugbear = 65% * (3d4+4*2) = 11.05 + 65%*(4d6) 1/encounter = 9.1
9.1 extra damage per encounter means an encounter has to last a minimum 7 rounds for V.Human GWM to out DPR Bugbear DBS.
If we keep going, assuming both characters are Fighters and taking the same subclass (so we can ignore those bonuses in the comparison):
6th level: <- note that this is the "3 feat/ASI" threshold I mentioned we've just bumped it up to 6th level by using Fighter & VHuman.
DBS + Bugbear has maxed out their STR, and increased another ability score by 1 giving them:
DBS + Bugbear = 65% * (5d4+5*3) = 19.5 + 65%*(6d6) 1/encounter = 13.65
GWM + VHuman = 40% * (2d10+1d4+4*3+30) = 23
Meaning finally the GWM+VHuman has a reasonable chance of equalizing as it takes only 4 rounds for PAM+GWM to catch up to our Bugbear bonus, that is unless we Action Surge on our first turn....
It's objectively better than using two scimitars as well.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
At level 5 with no other changes and now 2 attacks the GWM with the same accuracy is hitting 4d6+8+20x.4=16.8 double scimitar is doing 5d4+12x.65=15.9, the higher the accuracy goes the more it goes toward GWM the lower it goes the more it goes to dual scimitar. This isn't some edge case build, its pretty basic. And even without human the numbers are not that far off the heavy weapon guy would be doing 4d6+26=40x.35 or 14. The thing is while it is good for when you don't build into it, you can't really build into it if you want to. Its not a two weapons, its not a polearm, its not a heavy weapon, its not finesse, you are not using a shield. Its two handed so i guess you can take the pretty crappy two handed weapon style which with d4s is % wise a decent shift.
i am not calculating crits but that is a bit of a wash, heavy weapon has its perk from that, 2d6 crits better than 2d4 or 1d4, but more attacks are more opportunities to crit.
Sure two weapon style kind of sucked in 2014. If you lean into it you could use rapiers and have a +1 AC so its a bit closer, and the rapiers work with sneak attack so the rogue would prefer those.
Please see my post above I included level 6 there - if we use a species bonus for the GWM build, we should be using one for the DBS build as well and if we are going optimal choice for GWM we should be going optimal choice for DBS - that's how you do fair comparisons. You can't compare X to X+Y because obviously adding Y will make it better (ok I need to stop this line of argument now before I go on a rant about AI and their biased comparisons)... anyway...
Without Variant Human, GWM + PAM builds suffer even more from poor accuracy which means they don't actually do all that much more damage baseline. The benefit of GWM only "comes online" by stacking various features / spells that increase your accuracy or by assuming your enemy as terrible AC (this latter is a common cheat for online "optimizers").
You can, just not with the standard ways. The Revenant Blade feat makes DBS finesse and gives a +1 AC which allows you to add on Sneak Attack and potentially build for tankiness by taking Defense fighting style (gives a total +2 AC effectively a Shield while also using a two-handed weapon), you can likewise stack on anything that buffs damage of your weapon since all your attacks are being made with the same weapon - Magic Weapon, Artificer Infusions, Divine Favour etc... these are all far more effective on DBS than GWM-builds because of their improved accuracy - note that even as simple as a Flametongue Greatsword can largely invalidate using GWM power attacks. But the vast majority of "builds" don't come online until level 8+ which is in the tail end of a campaign so you'll only get to play them for a few session during normal play.