Blade pact is not hexblade only. How on earth do rogues survive with only light armor in melee? It's not a tax.
A rogue survives in melee by not staying in melee, the same way Archfey does, with mobility. A rogue has bonus action disengage built into its kit, and is a dex based class for slightly better AC anyway. Even the Swashbuckler rogue has mobility built into its kit so it doesn’t stand in melee range. It’s a tax.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
You're sort of contradicting yourself there. If other warlocks already manage just fine in melee without medium armor, then giving it to hexblades wouldn't make them far and away the best at it.
No, I'm not because all the others are limited use rather than static. Medium Armor and a shield means an AC of 19 with 14 DEX; using Mage Armor with that DEX gives 15 AC. A constant 20% decrease in to hit is far and away better than the other options.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
It wouldn’t make them them the Pinnacle of PotB. Archfey is a subclass with great skirmisher playstyle. It would only make them the pinnacle at stay in melee Warlock without Multiclassing. One level in fighter gives any warlock the same armor, plus a weapon mastery and a fighting style. It actually means that this feature would make multiclassing partially redundant for Hexblade. I would much rather they not update Hexblade than update it without giving it armor or a reason to prefer melee combat.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
Above doesn’t change anything. Giving them armor doesn’t make them the best PotB user when Archfey can skirmish. A 20% decrease to hit isn’t as good as a 100% decrease to hit. Saying the other’s abilities are limited is pointless when most people are only having 1-2 combats per session.
Unlike basing a subclass on say Hunters Mark Spell and Hex Spell. Just assume the player will want to cast it instead of any of their other concentration spells.
In both cases the class or subclasses forces you to have the spell. No player can by mistake be a ranger without access to HM, no hexblade wont have hex. This is different from blade pact which many warlocks dont have.
A spellcaster with dispel magic can stop the Hexblade from accessing their features (Hex Blade only Warlock to advertise the Hex spell -- Target gets orbiting Weapon when casting Hex --Not when casting hex with this feature)
any charachter can lose access to to it features based on debuffs. paralyze, stun, sleep. And every caster loses access to some features if silenced, dispelled, antimagic etc.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
hexblade does not need medium armor to survive in melee.
first off the objective difference in potential between light and medium armor is 1 aC.
light armor = 12+ dex mod it goes up to 17
mage armor = 13+dex mod it goes up to 18
Best medium armor - 15+ up to 2 Dex mod for 17 and gives disadvantage to stealth.
rogue has light armor and the only defensive feature that may help them survive in melee is a reaction to half damage once per round. warlock and hexblade have substantially more tools for mitigation or health recovery, HP and even AC boosting.
So lets be clear here, the warlock can very much have as much AC as medium armor, they just have to actually invest in it. We arent really discussing whether warlock can specialize into more AC in combat, we are discussing how easy it should be.
what some are calling 'onerous' is less than others have to invest.
a lvl 1 warlock can take the mage armor invocation and have 16 AC with 16 dex, while still having 17 in charisma, which is actually the equivalent of medium armor.
17 ac with medium armor requires has a stealth penalty. which they can still beat by investing in dex.
to keep it 100%. warlock has spells, access to level 6-9 lvl spells, scaling mulriattack ranged damage, and melee damage with the same stat (better than dex weapons) and yall think that they cant exist without having to invest into AC. No one else has this. No one else needs this to be effective.
Monk cannot get 17 AC without investing 14 points in two stats, rogue cant get 17ac without investing 5 points in stats. Why is it warlock or hexblade's divine right to get melee effeciency, 17 AC, spell casting and mental stats with minimal investment?
you want to be a standard AC based melee martial, invest in dexterity. you already get weapon and spell scaling from chr, you have the attributes for it.
I think this is a bad argument. DEX is not going to be the #2 priority stat for most Warlocks. And the vast majority of the time they're unlikely to have something as high as 16 or 17 - let alone 18+ - to use in that stat.
CHA is for Spell to-hit and Spell DC. If that is the least important and not going to be an issue you can dump it (If not multiclassing) or set to 13 (If multiclassing)
Depending on playstyle and character concept you can then go STR or DEX for weapon Combat.
If you plan on mixing some spells with HEXBLADE Focusing on CHA is a good idea. (and True strike is worth an option)
But may need
STR 13+ Heavy Weapon (Armor if multiclassing)
DEX 13+ Heavey weapon and DC - ranged weapon to hit/damage
CON ++ Hit Points and Concentration saves for those concentration spells.
I think this is a bad argument. DEX is not going to be the #2 priority stat for most Warlocks. And the vast majority of the time they're unlikely to have something as high as 16 or 17 - let alone 18+ - to use in that stat.
its not a priority because they either didnt value it, or had no reason to take it, and that has never really been great balance.
Anything you can say about why hexblade must have AC or could use other stats applies to monk as well. Hexblade has the tools and the options to specialize in melee if they choose. a dex/chr hexblade would be comparable to a dex wis monk. The argument that warlock cant function in melee without medium armor is not actually the argument, (they can get the same ac without medium armor) the question is how easy should it be. Given that they have pact magic, invocations, level 6-9 spells 4-5 attacks per round, 3 attack actiom (great weapon attacks) multiple defensive subclass features, I find it really hard to claim they will struggle in melee or cant invest attributes to specialize (since they are SAD on martial and casting stats)
like who are you comparing this class to? paladin cant touch its ranged option, and has to invest in two stats for spell efficiency and melee efficiency. Rangers Dex based melee and ranged option doesnt compare, and they have to focus on wis to be good at spells. Cleric and druid have 1 melee attack, and need to invest on other stats to be martial. Moon druid can single stat with wildshape, but is locked out of most magic while doing it.
like it is really a reach to claim warlock must get cheap access to medium to be viable, when they have the resources to get AC while still being competitive will other classes who have less.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
hexblade does not need medium armor to survive in melee.
first off the objective difference in potential between light and medium armor is 1 aC.
light armor = 12+ dex mod it goes up to 17
mage armor = 13+dex mod it goes up to 18
Best medium armor - 15+ up to 2 Dex mod for 17 and gives disadvantage to stealth.
rogue has light armor and the only defensive feature that may help them survive in melee is a reaction to half damage once per round. warlock and hexblade have substantially more tools for mitigation or health recovery, HP and even AC boosting.
So lets be clear here, the warlock can very much have as much AC as medium armor, they just have to actually invest in it. We arent really discussing whether warlock can specialize into more AC in combat, we are discussing how easy it should be.
what some are calling 'onerous' is less than others have to invest.
a lvl 1 warlock can take the mage armor invocation and have 16 AC with 16 dex, while still having 17 in charisma, which is actually the equivalent of medium armor.
17 ac with medium armor requires has a stealth penalty. which they can still beat by investing in dex.
to keep it 100%. warlock has spells, access to level 6-9 lvl spells, scaling mulriattack ranged damage, and melee damage with the same stat (better than dex weapons) and yall think that they cant exist without having to invest into AC. No one else has this. No one else needs this to be effective.
Monk cannot get 17 AC without investing 14 points in two stats, rogue cant get 17ac without investing 5 points in stats. Why is it warlock or hexblade's divine right to get melee effeciency, 17 AC, spell casting and mental stats with minimal investment?
you want to be a standard AC based melee martial, invest in dexterity. you already get weapon and spell scaling from chr, you have the attributes for it.
Monks and rogues both have mobility and can walk out of melee range as a bonus action creating a 100% melee miss chance. Monks also have deflect attacks and bonus action Dodge if they want to stay in the frontliner play style. Rogues do not have a frontliner play style option, but they never have had one. Hexblade was the warlocks frontliner playstyle option. We are simply asking that it remains that. If I want to play a skirmisher warlock I would play archfey. Also you don’t get a weapon. You have to make an investment to get PotB and it’s not as good as other melee martials weapons. I actually want hex warrior back so you don’t have to take PotB, but you would so you can get the other invocations that require it. Hex warrior would just allow you to dual wield or bring back old PotB features that are missing in 2024.
Note I’m not like some people who want Hexblade to have weapon masteries and fighting styles. I just want them to get their hex warrior feature that includes medium armor and shield training.
Blade pact is not hexblade only. How on earth do rogues survive with only light armor in melee? It's not a tax.
A rogue survives in melee by not staying in melee, the same way Archfey does, with mobility. A rogue has bonus action disengage built into its kit, and is a dex based class for slightly better AC anyway. Even the Swashbuckler rogue has mobility built into its kit so it doesn’t stand in melee range. It’s a tax.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
You're sort of contradicting yourself there. If other warlocks already manage just fine in melee without medium armor, then giving it to hexblades wouldn't make them far and away the best at it.
No, I'm not because all the others are limited use rather than static. Medium Armor and a shield means an AC of 19 with 14 DEX; using Mage Armor with that DEX gives 15 AC. A constant 20% decrease in to hit is far and away better than the other options.
That's no an invocation tax, it's a choice. And it should be available for all warlocks.
It is an Invocation tax for a Hexblade who needs better AC to actually survive in melee range, and why should it be available for all Warlocks?
Well, for one once again there's the point that it would be a very poor design choice to specifically make Hexblade the far and away pinnacle of a Pact of the Blade build. Keep in mind that there's already a PotB Invocation that allows you to roll Hit Die to regain HP on a hit. And most subclasses also have some defensive option in their repertoire- resistances, roll modification, disadvantage, escape buttons, bonus action healing, etc. You're never going to have the staying power of a dedicated martial, but it's quite possible to keep yourself going in a typical encounter just fine without needing a massive AC boost.
It wouldn’t make them them the Pinnacle of PotB. Archfey is a subclass with great skirmisher playstyle. It would only make them the pinnacle at stay in melee Warlock without Multiclassing. One level in fighter gives any warlock the same armor, plus a weapon mastery and a fighting style. It actually means that this feature would make multiclassing partially redundant for Hexblade. I would much rather they not update Hexblade than update it without giving it armor or a reason to prefer melee combat.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
Above doesn’t change anything. Giving them armor doesn’t make them the best PotB user when Archfey can skirmish. A 20% decrease to hit isn’t as good as a 100% decrease to hit. Saying the other’s abilities are limited is pointless when most people are only having 1-2 combats per session.
Really solid points—with actual examples and numbers to back them up. Meanwhile, others are dismissing things as purely based on personal preference. That’s fine, but game design should be grounded in balance and mechanics, not just opinion.
There’s a reason the 2024 version had medium armor and shield, don’t you think?
warlock also has mobility, if they choose, jump invocation gives warlocks essentially 50 feet movement. They can baiscally cast it at will.
monks mobility isnt for staying away from enemies btw, its for closing the gap, monk relies on using its BA to be viable which requires them to be in melee with an enemy every turn. unless they want to do less damage than a cantrip.
hexblade can cause slow and no opportunity attacks on hit with hex.
hexblade has a better ranged option, by far than monk. (warlock is a better at being either in or out of range as they choose)
hexblade also gets a deflect attack like feature, but they also get hp return for killing hexed monsters, the have numerous defensive spells to choose from, if they give up damage, like dodge would be. except dodge gives up 3/5th of the monks damage, and not using hex only gives up 25% of your damage. blade ward is on average similar to dodge in terms of reduction, dodge is slightly better, but mirror image is superior to dodge by far.
dex chr hexblade has up to 18 ac, it recovers hp when a target dies, it can use blade ward or mirror image, it can deflect attacks a certain amount of times per day. has spells like armor of agythys, can cure itself with arcane vigor, it can have 50 movement speed at level 1.
hexblade will not struggle in melee if they want to be durable.
the truth is, pure martials actually cannot be as tanky as a caster who wants to be tanky. Which is why many people revolted in the UA when casters could get medium armor and shields as a level 1 feat. And also why hexblade was seen as a broken level dip by many.
reply to emerylopes:
"Really solid points—with actual examples and numbers to back them up. Meanwhile, others are dismissing things as purely based on personal preference. That’s fine, but game design should be grounded in balance and mechanics, not just opinion.
There’s a reason the 2024 version had medium armor and shield, don’t you think?"
i assume you mean 2014, and 2014 made some mistakes. Many people say hexblade was one of those mistakes.
as for real numbers
Hexblade is by the numbers substantially more survivable than rogue.
lets look at a level 11 rogue assassin assume con 14
max hp 80, Max hp recovery per day 11(d8+2)=71.5 mitigation: reaction to reduce damage by half 1 per round.
monk elements
max hp 80, AC 18, recovery just SR hitdice so 71.5, mitigation, deflect attacks/patient defense
hexblade
hp 80 AC 18 hp Max recovery arcane vigor, hungering hex, mitigation armor of agythys, mirror image, armor of hexes, shield.
on average it takes more than 6 attacks to get past mirror images, or more than 2 rounds, warlock has 3 casts per fight at 11,
suffice to say, when being offensive minded hexblade is similar to monk in terms of damge taken, but has great mitigation
i can tell you that warlock is extremely durable when it wants to be. in many situations more durable than monks, barbarians or fighters. each has situations where they shine, but its right there with them.
warlock also has mobility, if they choose, jump invocation gives warlocks essentially 50 feet movement. They can baiscally cast it at will.
monks mobility isnt for staying away from enemies btw, its for closing the gap, monk relies on using its BA to be viable which requires them to be in melee with an enemy every turn. unless they want to do less damage than a cantrip.
hexblade can cause slow and no opportunity attacks on hit with hex.
hexblade has a better ranged option, by far than monk. (warlock is a better at being either in or out of range as they choose)
hexblade also gets a deflect attack like feature, but they also get hp return for killing hexed monsters, the have numerous defensive spells to choose from, if they give up damage, like dodge would be. except dodge gives up 3/5th of the monks damage, and not using hex only gives up 25% of your damage. blade ward is on average similar to dodge in terms of reduction, dodge is slightly better, but mirror image is superior to dodge by far.
dex chr hexblade has up to 18 ac, it recovers hp when a target dies, it can use blade ward or mirror image, it can deflect attacks a certain amount of times per day. has spells like armor of agythys, can cure itself with arcane vigor, it can have 50 movement speed at level 1.
hexblade will not struggle in melee if they want to be durable.
the truth is, pure martials actually cannot be as tanky as a caster who wants to be tanky. Which is why many people revolted in the UA when casters could get medium armor and shields as a level 1 feat. And also why hexblade was seen as a broken level dip by many.
Jump does not equal disengage. Also taking jump means you give up mage armor, agonizing blast or a pact option. And you are still far less mobile than a rogue and monk.
You said they can hex, hopefully hit and get to walk away without an opportunity attack from one target. While a monk and rogue can hit or miss, BA disengage and walk away from everyone without triggering an opportunity attack. These two things are not the same.
At early levels Monks have equal or better option for ranged combat. A short bow. Eldritch Blast needs an invocation to be a heavy lifter. Remember we are comparing a PotB Hexblade here. Don’t lose focus and start comparing options that can’t all be taken at the same time. For most of normal play it’s 3 or 5 invocations. Some will hit 6 and some will get to 7.
You comparing a level 10 Hexblade feature to a lvl. 3 monk feature. They are not the same.
It’s about play style. Saying they can be durable if they try really hard they will just come up slightly behind the other martials while not really having access to warlock stuff either since I gave that up to be a near martial. I have one question. What does Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster give up to be casters. You can’t even say they become MAD because the best spells for them don’t require a casting stat.
No one was 1 level dipping Hexblade for medium armor and shields. It was Cha casters getting SAD. Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers almost always went 2 levels for agonizing blast. They didn’t all go hex with the multi it depended on build. Hexblade was used mostly because it fixed 2014 PotB. Now all warlocks have access to that. Even if you give Hexblade Hex warrior back sin 2024 the Archfey skirmisher still is a great option for PotB focused build. Hexblade would be a better armored stay in the frontline go toe to toe build.
If they don’t want that I would prefer they don’t I would prefer they don’t update it. If they want to move forward with this weird Hexer from the UA call it that and not Hexblade. This UA Hexer is far better just playing the normal ranged warlock.
warlock also has mobility, if they choose, jump invocation gives warlocks essentially 50 feet movement. They can baiscally cast it at will.
monks mobility isnt for staying away from enemies btw, its for closing the gap, monk relies on using its BA to be viable which requires them to be in melee with an enemy every turn. unless they want to do less damage than a cantrip.
hexblade can cause slow and no opportunity attacks on hit with hex.
hexblade has a better ranged option, by far than monk. (warlock is a better at being either in or out of range as they choose)
hexblade also gets a deflect attack like feature, but they also get hp return for killing hexed monsters, the have numerous defensive spells to choose from, if they give up damage, like dodge would be. except dodge gives up 3/5th of the monks damage, and not using hex only gives up 25% of your damage. blade ward is on average similar to dodge in terms of reduction, dodge is slightly better, but mirror image is superior to dodge by far.
dex chr hexblade has up to 18 ac, it recovers hp when a target dies, it can use blade ward or mirror image, it can deflect attacks a certain amount of times per day. has spells like armor of agythys, can cure itself with arcane vigor, it can have 50 movement speed at level 1.
hexblade will not struggle in melee if they want to be durable.
the truth is, pure martials actually cannot be as tanky as a caster who wants to be tanky. Which is why many people revolted in the UA when casters could get medium armor and shields as a level 1 feat. And also why hexblade was seen as a broken level dip by many.
Jump does not equal disengage. Also taking jump means you give up mage armor, agonizing blast or a pact option. And you are still far less mobile than a rogue and monk.
You said they can hex, hopefully hit and get to walk away without an opportunity attack from one target. While a monk and rogue can hit or miss, BA disengage and walk away from everyone without triggering an opportunity attack. These two things are not the same.
At early levels Monks have equal or better option for ranged combat. A short bow. Eldritch Blast needs an invocation to be a heavy lifter. Remember we are comparing a PotB Hexblade here. Don’t lose focus and start comparing options that can’t all be taken at the same time. For most of normal play it’s 3 or 5 invocations. Some will hit 6 and some will get to 7.
You comparing a level 10 Hexblade feature to a lvl. 3 monk feature. They are not the same.
It’s about play style. Saying they can be durable if they try really hard they will just come up slightly behind the other martials while not really having access to warlock stuff either since I gave that up to be a near martial. I have one question. What does Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster give up to be casters. You can’t even say they become MAD because the best spells for them don’t require a casting stat.
No one was 1 level dipping Hexblade for medium armor and shields. It was Cha casters getting SAD. Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers almost always went 2 levels for agonizing blast. They didn’t all go hex with the multi it depended on build. Hexblade was used mostly because it fixed 2014 PotB. Now all warlocks have access to that. Even if you give Hexblade Hex warrior back sin 2024 the Archfey skirmisher still is a great option for PotB focused build. Hexblade would be a better armored stay in the frontline go toe to toe build.
If they don’t want that I would prefer they don’t I would prefer they don’t update it. If they want to move forward with this weird Hexer from the UA call it that and not Hexblade. This UA Hexer is far better just playing the normal ranged warlock.
The level you obtain a feature doesnt tell you much about its power level, especially with scaling. Features that are powerful at any level rage, reckless attacks, flurry of blows, second wind, tatical mind, eldritch blast, action surge, lay on hands. The only thing i'll say that matters is that they dont have this until later, however they have blade ward at level one, mirror images at level 3, they have armor of agythys and arcane vigor early, monk does not.
you may not have played monk, but monk is not going to use its BA to disengage on a regular basis, There is generally no benefit to getting close to an enemy for a monk if they will have to use their BA for defense or to disengage. doing so gives up half of their damage, and usually subclass feature options tied to FOB. if you are going to do that, you may as well have used shortbow., or throw daggers. (and while you are doing this you are mininally contributing to the party, your damage is trash, you arent soaking damage and you arent controlling monsters)
most of normal play is 3 invocations? huh? most of normal play is not sub level 5. In the rough guidance of the encounter building, you will spend the majority of games at level 5+. if you average 4 moderate encounters a day, youll only be below level 5 for 6 or so adventuring days. Also, if you are going to look at monk at level 3, it only has 3 ki. And you cant use many blade invocations until certain level reqs anyway. keep in mind monk does not have 50 movement per round until level 10, (jump also includes 30 feet vertical) and doesnt have spell options like expiditious retreat.
You talk about hexblade like there is one right set of invocations andorder everyone will choose. thats not the case.
the hexblade who wants to be skirmisher, going in and out of range (like you say monk will do, but they wont usually, because monk wants to stay close as much as possible) will likely have different invocation priority than the one who wants to sit in melee. you might start of with jump pact of the blade and agonizing blast, and another skirmisher might choose pact of the blade and mage armor and eldritch boost, and yet another might not even pick up pact of the plade until later since their dex and chr could have the same mod. When thinking about warlock you have to consider what is possible, not just what you think someone will do. Mage armor invocation is one option, you could just use light armor, or pick up the spell somewhere. not all people will use the same combos. Hexblade has many possible builds, even within the i use weapons most times framework.
but really i am telling you in practice a monk is not disengaging with bonus actions in order to reduce damage any more often than warlocks cast expeditious retreat. Its an oh shit button that basically means you were forced to waste a turn. Rogue is built such that their BA doesnt contribute a huge amount, monk is built so its BA is as important or more for contributing. The fact that monk can not actually be useful if its retreating in combat is a major reason they had to redesign it. Warlock is not similar to that, it has all the tools actually play that role well if it chooses to. Various means of exiting melee, great movement, and most of its damage is tied only to its main action, BA can be used to escape, and access to things like repelling blast and eldritch smite.
eldtrich knight and arcane tricksters are 1/3rd casters. and they are giving up subclass features that some would say are better or equal to get that. Warlock can probably be considered a 3/4th casters and a full martial, even without hexblade sub. Hexblade is using smites paladin wont get access to, for more damage, at way earlier levels. Even comparing warlock's caster ability to those subs is a joke. at level 7, warlock will get access to spell teirs arcane tricksters and eldritch knight can cast one time at level 19.
they dont come up slightly behind other martials, they come up slightly behind other martials in specific circumstances, in others they come out ahead. For example, barbarian baseline is poor at mitigating magical and elemental damage, And soak a lot of damage due to lowering AC. Hexblade with mirror images, or blade ward is substantially harder to hit than a barbarian, armor of agathys works on total melee damage not just the physical portion, armor of hexes can be used to reduce any type of damage, not just attacks, like monks deflect attacks. The warlock, even without medium armor is as durable as other martials, and sometimes more.
warlocks who focus on blade pact are still warlocks, The melee invoactions are warlock features, you dont say monk is giving up monk stuff to get martial arts feature, that is a monk feature. getting to use a spell casting mod for melee weapons, using it as a spell focus and summoning weapons from thin air is a uniquely warlock feature. being able to do necrotic or psychic damage and recover hp on hit is a uniquely warlock feature, being able to make 3 attacks with your attack action is a uniquely warlock feature. You are acting like warlocks are giving up on being a weird magic user with special powers by being weapon users, when they are actually getting great magical melee features many classes would desire.
Look, its fine to say, you dont like the direction they chose for hexblade and would prefer something different, but its just not accurate at all to claim this hexblade is inoticeably nferior to other martials in survivability or damage as is.
And the thing is, the last hexblade was also better as a ranged caster. there was no incentive to actually be in melee other than smites with the last hexblade.
and in truth, its actually better to do that now, because the new hexblade can force disadvantage on the next save then smite.
As far as keeping the old hexblade, 2024 says you can use old subclasses, so there is no benefit to not updating, you can use the 2014 sub if you wish.
I think a better argument would be that they are missing an opportunity to actually make the hexblade a real melee martial focused subclass that more strongly fills the niche if a cursed weapon user, rather than it needs more access to easy sources of AC. A common use of the old hexblade was an eldritch blast turret with more defense.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
The point about not being able to take into account all possible multiclassing dips: It is a very basic consideration and they have already done it with regards to the Bladesinger in the UA material: The subclass doesn't provide Light Armor Training anymore and Bladesong now forbides wearing any armor at all - whereas before it was just limiting you to Light Armor. The reason to include that limit is mostly there because multiclassing exists. You can argue all you want that it is to account for Feats granting Armor Training but I think most can agree that Armor Prof. Feats have never really been optimal.
As for all the arguments that "Warlocks can survive just as well as other non-tank Martials ala Rogues and Monks": I believe you're arguing in bad faith.
PotB converts CHA into your weapon stat so you become slightly less MAD for a melee build. To argue that Warlocks can prioritize DEX in their build to gain similar AC as a Rogue is not really a fair argument. Rogues have DEX as their primary stat and a lot of the weaponry, features, and skills that Rogues are known for utilize DEX. After DEX most melee Rogues prioritize CON for more health. If your Warlock prioritizes CHA, and DEX, and CON you're stuck with a MAD character that doesn't really perform well in their role. The Arcane Trickster subclass for Rogue has a similar issue where they want to prioritize DEX > INT > CON. This means your HP wont be prioritized as much and there's a large incentive for you to remain at range and not get hit. However this is fully within the Rogue's arsenal.
Secondly these non-tank Martials that you compare against all have additional defenses built into their class.
Rogues with BA-mobility, Uncanny Dodge to Reaction for half-damage on an attack-roll, Cunning Strikes have a few debuffs and mobility tools that can be used defensively, Evasion to dodge DEX-targeted AoEs (so most AoEs), Slippery Mind for Prof. in WIS/CHA Saving throws, Elusive for never allowing attack rolls to have ADV against you.
Monk have Patient Defense (dodge as a BA [Monk LVL] times paired with Disengage) does a fair amount of work. Uncanny Metabolism to heal when going into a fight. Deflect Attack to trade your Reaction for 1d10 + DEX + [Monk LVL] damage reduction against most attacks until lvl 13 where its all attacks. They also have Evasion like Rogues, lvl 10 Patient Defense adds a slight amount of TempHP (2d8 at lvl 10) on top of the Dodge+Disengage, Prof. in ALL Saving throws and a reroll mechanic on fails, lvl 18's Resistance to all damage but Force damage.
To say that Warlock have similar defenses as those two just because they prioritize DEX is not at all a fair argument. Neither are the defensive options that Warlock can get through Invocations and spells anywhere near on level with those two. Another point is that neither Rogue nor Monk have Concentration checks (well two subclasses aside), so they don't lose resources other than HP when they get hit. TBF I think that's the compromise the Warlock have to make for going into melee, but I'm not thrilled that the Hexblade puts all their eggs into the Hex-basket.
The other scenarios we have with half and third-casters that tend towards a MAD spread include: Ranger, Paladin, EK-Fighter. What do they all have in common? They have Armor Training to lessen the demand on their attribute spread and make them less MAD. The third-casters usually also focus more on utility and spells that don't rely on spell DC. Paladin can just choose to Smite all their slots away but they usually want a little CHA to do some spell casting, and Ranger have the option of staying ranged, deprioritize CON and pump WIS.
As for melee Warlocks to not main CHA and instead focus DEX: You're essentially building a bad Fighter with worse hit dice, only Light Armor Training, less survival tools, and some spells that is not as reliable when using attack rolls or Spell DC because you prioritized CHA second (or perhaps even third behind CON for the HP and Concentration saves). You're also limiting yourself to finesse weaponry and thus cannot utilize Versatile weapons for the d10. This doesn't seem like a very functional alternative for a gish but may work for a dual-wielder that just looks to get the most out of Hex and sidelines the spellcasting and CHA-skill portions/half of the Warlock class.
That only specifically works against their Hex'ed target - meaning very good against singular strong opponents and quite poor against a pack of gnawers. Also this contradicts the point you try to make shortly after about defensive spells:
the have numerous defensive spells to choose from, if they give up damage, like dodge would be. except dodge gives up 3/5th of the monks damage, and not using hex only gives up 25% of your damage. blade ward is on average similar to dodge in terms of reduction, dodge is slightly better, but mirror image is superior to dodge by far.
dex chr hexblade has up to 18 ac, it recovers hp when a target dies, it can use blade ward or mirror image, it can deflect attacks a certain amount of times per day. has spells like armor of agythys, can cure itself with arcane vigor, it can have 50 movement speed at level 1.
I like me some Mirror Images but it truly hurts spending 4th+ level spell slots on it. Mirror Image basically means if you get hit on your AC there's only a ~4% chance it doesn't hit a duplicate instead of you, and then it's 11% and then down to one duplicate there's a 33% chance it hits you. It's very good against targets that hit hard, but the mileage may get cut short if there's a few smaller pests around on the battlefield or enemies with an abundance of Multi-attacks.
You can get a lot of mileage out of Armor of Agathys, especially in combination with Fiendish Vigor. But mainly in tier 1-2 play. It has to be a melee attack roll that hits to trigger the damage, and the Temp HP is trailing behind Cure Wounds. Temp Hp can be preemptively put up, which makes it very good but I believe it is getting overrated as a survival tool in combat at tier 3+.
Also just to note the Pacts are the only Invocations available at Warlock level 1. So you don't get BA 50 feet movement before Rogues and Monks get BA 60 feet movement. Besides I've never known movement to be correlated to defenses unless you're ranged, meaning kiting, or have the ability to get in and out of combat with that movement to effectively be ranged.
See above- you're asking for a far larger boost to performance than the other features provide. And the existence of Fighter dips really doesn't negate my point so much as highlight why they shouldn't have dropped the verbiage that multiclassing is at the DM's discretion; regardless, expecting them to take into account all possible dip interactions is probably a bridge too far for the dev team, so for the purposes of designing class/subclass features the only consideration is the class itself and other subclass features.
The point about not being able to take into account all possible multiclassing dips: It is a very basic consideration and they have already done it with regards to the Bladesinger in the UA material: The subclass doesn't provide Light Armor Training anymore and Bladesong now forbides wearing any armor at all - whereas before it was just limiting you to Light Armor. The reason to include that limit is mostly there because multiclassing exists. You can argue all you want that it is to account for Feats granting Armor Training but I think most can agree that Armor Prof. Feats have never really been optimal.
As for all the arguments that "Warlocks can survive just as well as other non-tank Martials ala Rogues and Monks": I believe you're arguing in bad faith.
PotB converts CHA into your weapon stat so you become slightly less MAD for a melee build. To argue that Warlocks can prioritize DEX in their build to gain similar AC as a Rogue is not really a fair argument. Rogues have DEX as their primary stat and a lot of the weaponry, features, and skills that Rogues are known for utilize DEX. After DEX most melee Rogues prioritize CON for more health. If your Warlock prioritizes CHA, and DEX, and CON you're stuck with a MAD character that doesn't really perform well in their role. The Arcane Trickster subclass for Rogue has a similar issue where they want to prioritize DEX > INT > CON. This means your HP wont be prioritized as much and there's a large incentive for you to remain at range and not get hit. However this is fully within the Rogue's arsenal.
Secondly these non-tank Martials that you compare against all have additional defenses built into their class.
Rogues with BA-mobility, Uncanny Dodge to Reaction for half-damage on an attack-roll, Cunning Strikes have a few debuffs and mobility tools that can be used defensively, Evasion to dodge DEX-targeted AoEs (so most AoEs), Slippery Mind for Prof. in WIS/CHA Saving throws, Elusive for never allowing attack rolls to have ADV against you.
Monk have Patient Defense (dodge as a BA [Monk LVL] times paired with Disengage) does a fair amount of work. Uncanny Metabolism to heal when going into a fight. Deflect Attack to trade your Reaction for 1d10 + DEX + [Monk LVL] damage reduction against most attacks until lvl 13 where its all attacks. They also have Evasion like Rogues, lvl 10 Patient Defense adds a slight amount of TempHP (2d8 at lvl 10) on top of the Dodge+Disengage, Prof. in ALL Saving throws and a reroll mechanic on fails, lvl 18's Resistance to all damage but Force damage.
To say that Warlock have similar defenses as those two just because they prioritize DEX is not at all a fair argument. Neither are the defensive options that Warlock can get through Invocations and spells anywhere near on level with those two. Another point is that neither Rogue nor Monk have Concentration checks (well two subclasses aside), so they don't lose resources other than HP when they get hit. TBF I think that's the compromise the Warlock have to make for going into melee, but I'm not thrilled that the Hexblade puts all their eggs into the Hex-basket.
The other scenarios we have with half and third-casters that tend towards a MAD spread include: Ranger, Paladin, EK-Fighter. What do they all have in common? They have Armor Training to lessen the demand on their attribute spread and make them less MAD. The third-casters usually also focus more on utility and spells that don't rely on spell DC. Paladin can just choose to Smite all their slots away but they usually want a little CHA to do some spell casting, and Ranger have the option of staying ranged, deprioritize CON and pump WIS.
As for melee Warlocks to not main CHA and instead focus DEX: You're essentially building a bad Fighter with worse hit dice, only Light Armor Training, less survival tools, and some spells that is not as reliable when using attack rolls or Spell DC because you prioritized CHA second (or perhaps even third behind CON for the HP and Concentration saves). You're also limiting yourself to finesse weaponry and thus cannot utilize Versatile weapons for the d10. This doesn't seem like a very functional alternative for a gish but may work for a dual-wielder that just looks to get the most out of Hex and sidelines the spellcasting and CHA-skill portions/half of the Warlock class.
monk has to get dex and wisdom to get warlock AC,
monk is not a non tank, monk fighter and barbarian can all survive in melee well in mellee and warlock is by the numbers similar to them. Hexblade destroys rogue in survivability. Rogue can play with mobility style.
monk can not.
many people think that monk is supposed to use its BA to leave melee range who dont play monk, it isnt.
a monk who goes into melee range and out of melee range makes 1 attack per round before level 5 and two attacks per round after level 5. monk has no damage riders, no fighting styles, no masteries and no special abilities which synergize with its attack action. a monk who doesnt use its BA is the worst martial in the game before 5, and the worst class in the game after five (you do as much or more damage with booming blade or green flame blade at 5)
monk pre level 5, going into melee and leaving with BA step of the wind = 1d6+3 dpr per round, no on hit effects, control, damage soaking, protection or anything valuable to the group
monk at level 5 would do (d8+4)*2 =17 dpr green flame blade with any weapon or effect, equals this (using a d10 or higher weapon surpasses it) booming blade is d8+4+3d8=22 max and 13 if not triggered, average is 17.5 at 11, this monk is worse than a caster using no spells.
you provide more of value by using ranged attacks and spamming dodge, because at least if they target you you have higher chance not getting hit.
erase from your mind that monks mobility is defensive. its for utility, and cutting distance. Monk will serve the party better eating damage with deflect attacks than leaving melee range.
hexblade has defensive features. arcane vigor, blade ward, mirror images, armor of agathys, bane, wrathful smite, staggering smite, shadow of moil, armor of hexes, fiendish vigor, hungering hex. Why are we pretending a warlock is like a fighter who just has its AC and second wind. or a barb who just has rage.
monk/fighter/barbarian/warlock can all last similar amount of rounds.
warlock is not MAD because it has use for constitution, everyone has use for constitution. the best way to be good at con saves to take feats, not your base constitution. And shockingly, concentration spells are designed with them failing as part of their power budget, almost any concentration spells that lasts two rounds out performs a non concentration spell. Heres the thing, i think warlocks and some other casters have had very strong advantages when specializing into martial styles so they are used to having everything they could want.
most martials dont get to be good at casting, good at martial, good at con and good at ranged at the same time.
the chr/dex warlock (its main stat is chr btw, dex is secondary, and doesnt even need to go past 16 or 18) that i am talking about
is not inferior to fighter. fighter doesnt get pact magic, it doesnt get invocations, fighter cannot frighten opponents on hit, it cant force disadvantage on saves, it cant stunlock enemies for 2 rounds, it cant cast darkness, it cant deflect attacks, it doesnt have level 6 7 8 9 spells, it cant do elemental damage, Warlock is actually objectively stronger than fighter in defense and offense until it gets to level 11+ where it becomes competitive
they dont play similar, they dont have similar capabilities. the only thing fighter has over warlock, in 2024 is resting AC, which is inferior to warlocks spell and feature based defenses
The level you obtain a feature doesnt tell you much about its power level, especially with scaling. Features that are powerful at any level rage, reckless attacks, flurry of blows, second wind, tatical mind, eldritch blast, action surge, lay on hands. The only thing i'll say that matters is that they dont have this until later, however they have blade ward at level one, mirror images at level 3, they have armor of agythys and arcane vigor early, monk does not.
you may not have played monk, but monk is not going to use its BA to disengage on a regular basis, There is generally no benefit to getting close to an enemy for a monk if they will have to use their BA for defense or to disengage. doing so gives up half of their damage, and usually subclass feature options tied to FOB. if you are going to do that, you may as well have used shortbow., or throw daggers. (and while you are doing this you are mininally contributing to the party, your damage is trash, you arent soaking damage and you arent controlling monsters)
most of normal play is 3 invocations? huh? most of normal play is not sub level 5. In the rough guidance of the encounter building, you will spend the majority of games at level 5+. if you average 4 moderate encounters a day, youll only be below level 5 for 6 or so adventuring days. Also, if you are going to look at monk at level 3, it only has 3 ki. And you cant use many blade invocations until certain level reqs anyway. keep in mind monk does not have 50 movement per round until level 10, (jump also includes 30 feet vertical) and doesnt have spell options like expiditious retreat.
You talk about hexblade like there is one right set of invocations andorder everyone will choose. thats not the case.
the hexblade who wants to be skirmisher, going in and out of range (like you say monk will do, but they wont usually, because monk wants to stay close as much as possible) will likely have different invocation priority than the one who wants to sit in melee. you might start of with jump pact of the blade and agonizing blast, and another skirmisher might choose pact of the blade and mage armor and eldritch boost, and yet another might not even pick up pact of the plade until later since their dex and chr could have the same mod. When thinking about warlock you have to consider what is possible, not just what you think someone will do. Mage armor invocation is one option, you could just use light armor, or pick up the spell somewhere. not all people will use the same combos. Hexblade has many possible builds, even within the i use weapons most times framework.
but really i am telling you in practice a monk is not disengaging with bonus actions in order to reduce damage any more often than warlocks cast expeditious retreat. Its an oh shit button that basically means you were forced to waste a turn. Rogue is built such that their BA doesnt contribute a huge amount, monk is built so its BA is as important or more for contributing. The fact that monk can not actually be useful if its retreating in combat is a major reason they had to redesign it. Warlock is not similar to that, it has all the tools actually play that role well if it chooses to. Various means of exiting melee, great movement, and most of its damage is tied only to its main action, BA can be used to escape, and access to things like repelling blast and eldritch smite.
eldtrich knight and arcane tricksters are 1/3rd casters. and they are giving up subclass features that some would say are better or equal to get that. Warlock can probably be considered a 3/4th casters and a full martial, even without hexblade sub. Hexblade is using smites paladin wont get access to, for more damage, at way earlier levels. Even comparing warlock's caster ability to those subs is a joke. at level 7, warlock will get access to spell teirs arcane tricksters and eldritch knight can cast one time at level 19.
they dont come up slightly behind other martials, they come up slightly behind other martials in specific circumstances, in others they come out ahead. For example, barbarian baseline is poor at mitigating magical and elemental damage, And soak a lot of damage due to lowering AC. Hexblade with mirror images, or blade ward is substantially harder to hit than a barbarian, armor of agathys works on total melee damage not just the physical portion, armor of hexes can be used to reduce any type of damage, not just attacks, like monks deflect attacks. The warlock, even without medium armor is as durable as other martials, and sometimes more.
warlocks who focus on blade pact are still warlocks, The melee invoactions are warlock features, you dont say monk is giving up monk stuff to get martial arts feature, that is a monk feature. getting to use a spell casting mod for melee weapons, using it as a spell focus and summoning weapons from thin air is a uniquely warlock feature. being able to do necrotic or psychic damage and recover hp on hit is a uniquely warlock feature, being able to make 3 attacks with your attack action is a uniquely warlock feature. You are acting like warlocks are giving up on being a weird magic user with special powers by being weapon users, when they are actually getting great magical melee features many classes would desire.
Look, its fine to say, you dont like the direction they chose for hexblade and would prefer something different, but its just not accurate at all to claim this hexblade is inoticeably nferior to other martials in survivability or damage as is.
And the thing is, the last hexblade was also better as a ranged caster. there was no incentive to actually be in melee other than smites with the last hexblade.
and in truth, its actually better to do that now, because the new hexblade can force disadvantage on the next save then smite.
As far as keeping the old hexblade, 2024 says you can use old subclasses, so there is no benefit to not updating, you can use the 2014 sub if you wish.
I think a better argument would be that they are missing an opportunity to actually make the hexblade a real melee martial focused subclass that more strongly fills the niche if a cursed weapon user, rather than it needs more access to easy sources of AC. A common use of the old hexblade was an eldritch blast turret with more defense.
Above is a lot of words used with very little meaning. I try to use less words.
The level you get features at mattes a lot. To argue otherwise is disingenuous.
Disengage and teleportation are the mobility I’ve been talking about. Archery is the skirmisher warlock, I want Hexblade to remain the partial tank warlock.
I have never said monk will do anything, I literally said monk can do both things. Having disengage, dodge, and deflect attacks means monks can choose their play style on the fly and still have the other option if things don’t workout.
This is pointless because you are using every possible warlock build to counter without acknowledging that no one build can do all the stuff you are saying.
Also if they update Hexblade then you can’t use old Hexblade anymore by RAI, RAW. As of now old Hexblade is allowed in all 2024 games by RAW, and RAI. If you going to say people can play however they want then it’s pointless to even talk about the game.
it would be somewhat ok with light armor, if he had shield prof. or if getting medium armor prof. still granted you the shield prof. but as it is, we have been presented with a class that needs to take 2 feats ( 1 of them for the shield & 1 for the medium armor ) to be somewhat survivalbe.
i can understand they wanted to nerf the old hexblade, but as it is presented it is the same concept they did with the paladin class, completly destroy the concept behind this subclass of a warlock that could melee and even take a hit.
As for the people saying you get the same AC with light armor as you do with medium is not a valid point imho, as the hexblade has no skirmishing abilities ( i would never use a 5th lvl spell slot for mirror image, mystic step ) they depend on going sword & board
so to have a realistic stat distr. ( chr 17, dex, 16, con 14, dump the rest ) you end up with : light armor : 12 + 3 = AC 15, that might look decent at lvl 1, but lvl 5+ its a death wish medium armor + shield = 15 + 2 ( dex ) + 2 ( shield ) thats 19, we are already talking about a 20% hit chance diff.
the only way you would not use a sword & board would be if you wanted to use a 2h weapon, for which you don't have the stats ( 13+ str also needed )
Quote from Ain_Undos>>I think a better argument would be that they are missing an opportunity to actually make the hexblade a real melee martial focused subclass that more strongly fills the niche if a cursed weapon user, rather than it needs more access to easy sources of AC. A common use of the old hexblade was an eldritch blast turret with more defense.
Above is a lot of words used with very little meaning. I try to use less words.
The level you get features at mattes a lot. To argue otherwise is disingenuous.
Disengage and teleportation are the mobility I’ve been talking about. Archery is the skirmisher warlock, I want Hexblade to remain the partial tank warlock.
I have never said monk will do anything, I literally said monk can do both things. Having disengage, dodge, and deflect attacks means monks can choose their play style on the fly and still have the other option if things don’t workout.
This is pointless because you are using every possible warlock build to counter without acknowledging that no one build can do all the stuff you are saying.
Also if they update Hexblade then you can’t use old Hexblade anymore by RAI, RAW. As of now old Hexblade is allowed in all 2024 games by RAW, and RAI. If you going to say people can play however they want then it’s pointless to even talk about t
The rai and raw of making use of the PHB and core books is that it does not replace anything but the core books.
what ever additional books you use, whether 2014 or 2024 are completely up to the DM. Wizards officially and repeatedly have said that 2024 is designed not to invalidate old books. there is nothing in the rai or raw that says you cant use 2014 content, they soecifically said you can.
.lets just compare lvl 3 potential
melee/ranged hybrid hexblade build
pact of the blade otherworldly leap fiendish vigor; magic initiate mage armor. Chr 17 dex 16 Con 14
ranged hex DPR light xbow, 1d8+3+d6. can force 1 one of 3 effects on hit, slow/op attack, take damage if attack anyone else, or disadvantage on next save. dpr 11.
melee hex DPR change as you need, longsword 12 dpr, twf when you have a BA 15-16dpr depending if you use pact weapon or not. + 4.5 if booming blade triggers.
this guy with fiendish vigor has 36max hp, 16 ac. can cast two spells per SR, and recover 1 freebie per day. with blade ward, they are close to the Ac of the dodge action, they surpass it with mirror image, while only giving up 3.5 damage (hex). they can use armor of agathys for defense and refresh it with fiendish vigor, dealing 10 damage when they take hits
monk at the same level 24 hp, 16 AC. 3 ki per short rest. refil one per day.
ranged damage = 6.5 melee damage. melee damage without ki when BA available = 13 dmg.
if monk didnt have deflect attacks this would be an obvious blow out.
fighter, same level
28 hp, 16-17 AC unless they some how got plate armor already. no active defense abilities, can equip a shield for+2 ac (less than blade ward)
ranged damage 8.5 (d10+3) melee damage with BA 13 (twf) or 9.5 if dueling with shield. 10 if 2d6 weapon.
So tell me again how low level hexblade is somehow inferior to martials without medium armor at low levels. The hexblade is the clear superior here.
better offense, survivability, movement (50 versus monks 40) can dash as a BA with expeditious if needed (=80 feet of monk dash) melee damage. can misty step tonescape if they wish. All fighter has going for it is mastery utility.
and they can change 1 invocation per level, and change out mage armor as a spell if they want when they level, so they arent married to this for level 4+ they can pick up agonizing blast when it actually is more damage, and drop fiendish vigor when its not that useful. they can also swap spells
they could also start with 13 con and 12 str if they plan to eventually get warcaster and want GWM options in combat later.
Hexblade is mechanically on par with other martials, superior in t1 and t2.
they dont need medium armor to be viable, they are not offensively or defensively lacking.
it would be somewhat ok with light armor, if he had shield prof. or if getting medium armor prof. still granted you the shield prof. but as it is, we have been presented with a class that needs to take 2 feats ( 1 of them for the shield & 1 for the medium armor ) to be somewhat survivalbe.
i can understand they wanted to nerf the old hexblade, but as it is presented it is the same concept they did with the paladin class, completly destroy the concept behind this subclass of a warlock that could melee and even take a hit.
As for the people saying you get the same AC with light armor as you do with medium is not a valid point imho, as the hexblade has no skirmishing abilities ( i would never use a 5th lvl spell slot for mirror image, mystic step ) they depend on going sword & board
so to have a realistic stat distr. ( chr 17, dex, 16, con 14, dump the rest ) you end up with : light armor : 12 + 3 = AC 15, that might look decent at lvl 1, but lvl 5+ its a death wish medium armor + shield = 15 + 2 ( dex ) + 2 ( shield ) thats 19, we are already talking about a 20% hit chance diff.
the only way you would not use a sword & board would be if you wanted to use a 2h weapon, for which you don't have the stats ( 13+ str also needed )
you can pick up mage armor spell or use invocation to get 16 armor.
and the fact that warlocks might cheaply use eldritch blast while using a shield is a reason its not a good idea to build it into the baseline.
outside of this, a sword and board user can only have d8 damage, and 2 attacks, unless they are a fighter, (who wont get 4 attacks until 20)
i dont think the best sword and board build should be eldritch blast.
and, warlock can actually get 5 attacks if they invest in dual wielding, so that is also an option with some merit.
( i would never use a 5th lvl spell slot for mirror image, mystic step )
Um.. obviously? You use a 5th level spell slot for Synaptic Static which debuffs enemy attack rolls giving the entire party an effective +3.5 bonus to AC. Or you use it for Shadow of Moil or Greater Invisibility which makes enemy attacks against you permanently at disadvantage giving an effective +3-+5 AC. It's very simple design: If a caster wants to keep up in melee they have to spend their spellslots to do so. No free lunches anymore, either you cast spells to do spell-things and are weaker in melee, or you spend spellslots to do melee-stuff and keep up with martials who don't get that choice.
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A rogue survives in melee by not staying in melee, the same way Archfey does, with mobility. A rogue has bonus action disengage built into its kit, and is a dex based class for slightly better AC anyway. Even the Swashbuckler rogue has mobility built into its kit so it doesn’t stand in melee range. It’s a tax.
Above doesn’t change anything. Giving them armor doesn’t make them the best PotB user when Archfey can skirmish. A 20% decrease to hit isn’t as good as a 100% decrease to hit. Saying the other’s abilities are limited is pointless when most people are only having 1-2 combats per session.
In both cases the class or subclasses forces you to have the spell. No player can by mistake be a ranger without access to HM, no hexblade wont have hex. This is different from blade pact which many warlocks dont have.
any charachter can lose access to to it features based on debuffs. paralyze, stun, sleep. And every caster loses access to some features if silenced, dispelled, antimagic etc.
hexblade does not need medium armor to survive in melee.
first off the objective difference in potential between light and medium armor is 1 aC.
light armor = 12+ dex mod it goes up to 17
mage armor = 13+dex mod it goes up to 18
Best medium armor - 15+ up to 2 Dex mod for 17 and gives disadvantage to stealth.
rogue has light armor and the only defensive feature that may help them survive in melee is a reaction to half damage once per round. warlock and hexblade have substantially more tools for mitigation or health recovery, HP and even AC boosting.
So lets be clear here, the warlock can very much have as much AC as medium armor, they just have to actually invest in it. We arent really discussing whether warlock can specialize into more AC in combat, we are discussing how easy it should be.
what some are calling 'onerous' is less than others have to invest.
a lvl 1 warlock can take the mage armor invocation and have 16 AC with 16 dex, while still having 17 in charisma, which is actually the equivalent of medium armor.
17 ac with medium armor requires has a stealth penalty. which they can still beat by investing in dex.
to keep it 100%. warlock has spells, access to level 6-9 lvl spells, scaling mulriattack ranged damage, and melee damage with the same stat (better than dex weapons) and yall think that they cant exist without having to invest into AC. No one else has this. No one else needs this to be effective.
Monk cannot get 17 AC without investing 14 points in two stats, rogue cant get 17ac without investing 5 points in stats. Why is it warlock or hexblade's divine right to get melee effeciency, 17 AC, spell casting and mental stats with minimal investment?
you want to be a standard AC based melee martial, invest in dexterity. you already get weapon and spell scaling from chr, you have the attributes for it.
I think this is a bad argument. DEX is not going to be the #2 priority stat for most Warlocks. And the vast majority of the time they're unlikely to have something as high as 16 or 17 - let alone 18+ - to use in that stat.
CHA is for Spell to-hit and Spell DC. If that is the least important and not going to be an issue you can dump it (If not multiclassing) or set to 13 (If multiclassing)
Depending on playstyle and character concept you can then go STR or DEX for weapon Combat.
If you plan on mixing some spells with HEXBLADE Focusing on CHA is a good idea. (and True strike is worth an option)
But may need
STR 13+ Heavy Weapon (Armor if multiclassing)
DEX 13+ Heavey weapon and DC - ranged weapon to hit/damage
CON ++ Hit Points and Concentration saves for those concentration spells.
My 2 coopper
its not a priority because they either didnt value it, or had no reason to take it, and that has never really been great balance.
Anything you can say about why hexblade must have AC or could use other stats applies to monk as well. Hexblade has the tools and the options to specialize in melee if they choose. a dex/chr hexblade would be comparable to a dex wis monk. The argument that warlock cant function in melee without medium armor is not actually the argument, (they can get the same ac without medium armor) the question is how easy should it be. Given that they have pact magic, invocations, level 6-9 spells 4-5 attacks per round, 3 attack actiom (great weapon attacks) multiple defensive subclass features, I find it really hard to claim they will struggle in melee or cant invest attributes to specialize (since they are SAD on martial and casting stats)
like who are you comparing this class to? paladin cant touch its ranged option, and has to invest in two stats for spell efficiency and melee efficiency. Rangers Dex based melee and ranged option doesnt compare, and they have to focus on wis to be good at spells. Cleric and druid have 1 melee attack, and need to invest on other stats to be martial. Moon druid can single stat with wildshape, but is locked out of most magic while doing it.
like it is really a reach to claim warlock must get cheap access to medium to be viable, when they have the resources to get AC while still being competitive will other classes who have less.
Monks and rogues both have mobility and can walk out of melee range as a bonus action creating a 100% melee miss chance. Monks also have deflect attacks and bonus action Dodge if they want to stay in the frontliner play style. Rogues do not have a frontliner play style option, but they never have had one. Hexblade was the warlocks frontliner playstyle option. We are simply asking that it remains that. If I want to play a skirmisher warlock I would play archfey.
Also you don’t get a weapon. You have to make an investment to get PotB and it’s not as good as other melee martials weapons. I actually want hex warrior back so you don’t have to take PotB, but you would so you can get the other invocations that require it. Hex warrior would just allow you to dual wield or bring back old PotB features that are missing in 2024.
Note I’m not like some people who want Hexblade to have weapon masteries and fighting styles. I just want them to get their hex warrior feature that includes medium armor and shield training.
Really solid points—with actual examples and numbers to back them up. Meanwhile, others are dismissing things as purely based on personal preference. That’s fine, but game design should be grounded in balance and mechanics, not just opinion.
There’s a reason the 2024 version had medium armor and shield, don’t you think?
in reply to ain undos.
warlock also has mobility, if they choose, jump invocation gives warlocks essentially 50 feet movement. They can baiscally cast it at will.
monks mobility isnt for staying away from enemies btw, its for closing the gap, monk relies on using its BA to be viable which requires them to be in melee with an enemy every turn. unless they want to do less damage than a cantrip.
hexblade can cause slow and no opportunity attacks on hit with hex.
hexblade has a better ranged option, by far than monk. (warlock is a better at being either in or out of range as they choose)
hexblade also gets a deflect attack like feature, but they also get hp return for killing hexed monsters, the have numerous defensive spells to choose from, if they give up damage, like dodge would be. except dodge gives up 3/5th of the monks damage, and not using hex only gives up 25% of your damage. blade ward is on average similar to dodge in terms of reduction, dodge is slightly better, but mirror image is superior to dodge by far.
dex chr hexblade has up to 18 ac, it recovers hp when a target dies, it can use blade ward or mirror image, it can deflect attacks a certain amount of times per day. has spells like armor of agythys, can cure itself with arcane vigor, it can have 50 movement speed at level 1.
hexblade will not struggle in melee if they want to be durable.
the truth is, pure martials actually cannot be as tanky as a caster who wants to be tanky. Which is why many people revolted in the UA when casters could get medium armor and shields as a level 1 feat. And also why hexblade was seen as a broken level dip by many.
reply to emerylopes:
"Really solid points—with actual examples and numbers to back them up. Meanwhile, others are dismissing things as purely based on personal preference. That’s fine, but game design should be grounded in balance and mechanics, not just opinion.
There’s a reason the 2024 version had medium armor and shield, don’t you think?"
i assume you mean 2014, and 2014 made some mistakes. Many people say hexblade was one of those mistakes.
as for real numbers
Hexblade is by the numbers substantially more survivable than rogue.
lets look at a level 11 rogue assassin assume con 14
max hp 80, Max hp recovery per day 11(d8+2)=71.5 mitigation: reaction to reduce damage by half 1 per round.
monk elements
max hp 80, AC 18, recovery just SR hitdice so 71.5, mitigation, deflect attacks/patient defense
hexblade
hp 80 AC 18 hp Max recovery arcane vigor, hungering hex, mitigation armor of agythys, mirror image, armor of hexes, shield.
on average it takes more than 6 attacks to get past mirror images, or more than 2 rounds, warlock has 3 casts per fight at 11,
suffice to say, when being offensive minded hexblade is similar to monk in terms of damge taken, but has great mitigation
i can tell you that warlock is extremely durable when it wants to be. in many situations more durable than monks, barbarians or fighters. each has situations where they shine, but its right there with them.
Jump does not equal disengage. Also taking jump means you give up mage armor, agonizing blast or a pact option. And you are still far less mobile than a rogue and monk.
You said they can hex, hopefully hit and get to walk away without an opportunity attack from one target. While a monk and rogue can hit or miss, BA disengage and walk away from everyone without triggering an opportunity attack. These two things are not the same.
At early levels Monks have equal or better option for ranged combat. A short bow. Eldritch Blast needs an invocation to be a heavy lifter. Remember we are comparing a PotB Hexblade here. Don’t lose focus and start comparing options that can’t all be taken at the same time. For most of normal play it’s 3 or 5 invocations. Some will hit 6 and some will get to 7.
You comparing a level 10 Hexblade feature to a lvl. 3 monk feature. They are not the same.
It’s about play style. Saying they can be durable if they try really hard they will just come up slightly behind the other martials while not really having access to warlock stuff either since I gave that up to be a near martial. I have one question. What does Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster give up to be casters. You can’t even say they become MAD because the best spells for them don’t require a casting stat.
No one was 1 level dipping Hexblade for medium armor and shields. It was Cha casters getting SAD. Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers almost always went 2 levels for agonizing blast. They didn’t all go hex with the multi it depended on build. Hexblade was used mostly because it fixed 2014 PotB. Now all warlocks have access to that. Even if you give Hexblade Hex warrior back sin 2024 the Archfey skirmisher still is a great option for PotB focused build. Hexblade would be a better armored stay in the frontline go toe to toe build.
If they don’t want that I would prefer they don’t I would prefer they don’t update it. If they want to move forward with this weird Hexer from the UA call it that and not Hexblade. This UA Hexer is far better just playing the normal ranged warlock.
The level you obtain a feature doesnt tell you much about its power level, especially with scaling. Features that are powerful at any level rage, reckless attacks, flurry of blows, second wind, tatical mind, eldritch blast, action surge, lay on hands. The only thing i'll say that matters is that they dont have this until later, however they have blade ward at level one, mirror images at level 3, they have armor of agythys and arcane vigor early, monk does not.
you may not have played monk, but monk is not going to use its BA to disengage on a regular basis, There is generally no benefit to getting close to an enemy for a monk if they will have to use their BA for defense or to disengage. doing so gives up half of their damage, and usually subclass feature options tied to FOB. if you are going to do that, you may as well have used shortbow., or throw daggers. (and while you are doing this you are mininally contributing to the party, your damage is trash, you arent soaking damage and you arent controlling monsters)
most of normal play is 3 invocations? huh? most of normal play is not sub level 5. In the rough guidance of the encounter building, you will spend the majority of games at level 5+. if you average 4 moderate encounters a day, youll only be below level 5 for 6 or so adventuring days. Also, if you are going to look at monk at level 3, it only has 3 ki. And you cant use many blade invocations until certain level reqs anyway. keep in mind monk does not have 50 movement per round until level 10, (jump also includes 30 feet vertical) and doesnt have spell options like expiditious retreat.
You talk about hexblade like there is one right set of invocations andorder everyone will choose. thats not the case.
the hexblade who wants to be skirmisher, going in and out of range (like you say monk will do, but they wont usually, because monk wants to stay close as much as possible) will likely have different invocation priority than the one who wants to sit in melee. you might start of with jump pact of the blade and agonizing blast, and another skirmisher might choose pact of the blade and mage armor and eldritch boost, and yet another might not even pick up pact of the plade until later since their dex and chr could have the same mod. When thinking about warlock you have to consider what is possible, not just what you think someone will do. Mage armor invocation is one option, you could just use light armor, or pick up the spell somewhere. not all people will use the same combos. Hexblade has many possible builds, even within the i use weapons most times framework.
but really i am telling you in practice a monk is not disengaging with bonus actions in order to reduce damage any more often than warlocks cast expeditious retreat. Its an oh shit button that basically means you were forced to waste a turn. Rogue is built such that their BA doesnt contribute a huge amount, monk is built so its BA is as important or more for contributing. The fact that monk can not actually be useful if its retreating in combat is a major reason they had to redesign it. Warlock is not similar to that, it has all the tools actually play that role well if it chooses to. Various means of exiting melee, great movement, and most of its damage is tied only to its main action, BA can be used to escape, and access to things like repelling blast and eldritch smite.
eldtrich knight and arcane tricksters are 1/3rd casters. and they are giving up subclass features that some would say are better or equal to get that. Warlock can probably be considered a 3/4th casters and a full martial, even without hexblade sub. Hexblade is using smites paladin wont get access to, for more damage, at way earlier levels. Even comparing warlock's caster ability to those subs is a joke. at level 7, warlock will get access to spell teirs arcane tricksters and eldritch knight can cast one time at level 19.
they dont come up slightly behind other martials, they come up slightly behind other martials in specific circumstances, in others they come out ahead. For example, barbarian baseline is poor at mitigating magical and elemental damage, And soak a lot of damage due to lowering AC. Hexblade with mirror images, or blade ward is substantially harder to hit than a barbarian, armor of agathys works on total melee damage not just the physical portion, armor of hexes can be used to reduce any type of damage, not just attacks, like monks deflect attacks. The warlock, even without medium armor is as durable as other martials, and sometimes more.
warlocks who focus on blade pact are still warlocks, The melee invoactions are warlock features, you dont say monk is giving up monk stuff to get martial arts feature, that is a monk feature. getting to use a spell casting mod for melee weapons, using it as a spell focus and summoning weapons from thin air is a uniquely warlock feature. being able to do necrotic or psychic damage and recover hp on hit is a uniquely warlock feature, being able to make 3 attacks with your attack action is a uniquely warlock feature. You are acting like warlocks are giving up on being a weird magic user with special powers by being weapon users, when they are actually getting great magical melee features many classes would desire.
Look, its fine to say, you dont like the direction they chose for hexblade and would prefer something different, but its just not accurate at all to claim this hexblade is inoticeably nferior to other martials in survivability or damage as is.
And the thing is, the last hexblade was also better as a ranged caster. there was no incentive to actually be in melee other than smites with the last hexblade.
and in truth, its actually better to do that now, because the new hexblade can force disadvantage on the next save then smite.
As far as keeping the old hexblade, 2024 says you can use old subclasses, so there is no benefit to not updating, you can use the 2014 sub if you wish.
I think a better argument would be that they are missing an opportunity to actually make the hexblade a real melee martial focused subclass that more strongly fills the niche if a cursed weapon user, rather than it needs more access to easy sources of AC. A common use of the old hexblade was an eldritch blast turret with more defense.
IS this thread focusing on pure HEXBLADE or Multiclass
The point about not being able to take into account all possible multiclassing dips: It is a very basic consideration and they have already done it with regards to the Bladesinger in the UA material: The subclass doesn't provide Light Armor Training anymore and Bladesong now forbides wearing any armor at all - whereas before it was just limiting you to Light Armor. The reason to include that limit is mostly there because multiclassing exists. You can argue all you want that it is to account for Feats granting Armor Training but I think most can agree that Armor Prof. Feats have never really been optimal.
As for all the arguments that "Warlocks can survive just as well as other non-tank Martials ala Rogues and Monks": I believe you're arguing in bad faith.
PotB converts CHA into your weapon stat so you become slightly less MAD for a melee build. To argue that Warlocks can prioritize DEX in their build to gain similar AC as a Rogue is not really a fair argument. Rogues have DEX as their primary stat and a lot of the weaponry, features, and skills that Rogues are known for utilize DEX. After DEX most melee Rogues prioritize CON for more health. If your Warlock prioritizes CHA, and DEX, and CON you're stuck with a MAD character that doesn't really perform well in their role. The Arcane Trickster subclass for Rogue has a similar issue where they want to prioritize DEX > INT > CON. This means your HP wont be prioritized as much and there's a large incentive for you to remain at range and not get hit. However this is fully within the Rogue's arsenal.
Secondly these non-tank Martials that you compare against all have additional defenses built into their class.
Rogues with BA-mobility, Uncanny Dodge to Reaction for half-damage on an attack-roll, Cunning Strikes have a few debuffs and mobility tools that can be used defensively, Evasion to dodge DEX-targeted AoEs (so most AoEs), Slippery Mind for Prof. in WIS/CHA Saving throws, Elusive for never allowing attack rolls to have ADV against you.
Monk have Patient Defense (dodge as a BA [Monk LVL] times paired with Disengage) does a fair amount of work. Uncanny Metabolism to heal when going into a fight. Deflect Attack to trade your Reaction for 1d10 + DEX + [Monk LVL] damage reduction against most attacks until lvl 13 where its all attacks. They also have Evasion like Rogues, lvl 10 Patient Defense adds a slight amount of TempHP (2d8 at lvl 10) on top of the Dodge+Disengage, Prof. in ALL Saving throws and a reroll mechanic on fails, lvl 18's Resistance to all damage but Force damage.
To say that Warlock have similar defenses as those two just because they prioritize DEX is not at all a fair argument. Neither are the defensive options that Warlock can get through Invocations and spells anywhere near on level with those two. Another point is that neither Rogue nor Monk have Concentration checks (well two subclasses aside), so they don't lose resources other than HP when they get hit. TBF I think that's the compromise the Warlock have to make for going into melee, but I'm not thrilled that the Hexblade puts all their eggs into the Hex-basket.
The other scenarios we have with half and third-casters that tend towards a MAD spread include: Ranger, Paladin, EK-Fighter. What do they all have in common? They have Armor Training to lessen the demand on their attribute spread and make them less MAD. The third-casters usually also focus more on utility and spells that don't rely on spell DC. Paladin can just choose to Smite all their slots away but they usually want a little CHA to do some spell casting, and Ranger have the option of staying ranged, deprioritize CON and pump WIS.
As for melee Warlocks to not main CHA and instead focus DEX: You're essentially building a bad Fighter with worse hit dice, only Light Armor Training, less survival tools, and some spells that is not as reliable when using attack rolls or Spell DC because you prioritized CHA second (or perhaps even third behind CON for the HP and Concentration saves). You're also limiting yourself to finesse weaponry and thus cannot utilize Versatile weapons for the d10. This doesn't seem like a very functional alternative for a gish but may work for a dual-wielder that just looks to get the most out of Hex and sidelines the spellcasting and CHA-skill portions/half of the Warlock class.
That only specifically works against their Hex'ed target - meaning very good against singular strong opponents and quite poor against a pack of gnawers. Also this contradicts the point you try to make shortly after about defensive spells:
I like me some Mirror Images but it truly hurts spending 4th+ level spell slots on it. Mirror Image basically means if you get hit on your AC there's only a ~4% chance it doesn't hit a duplicate instead of you, and then it's 11% and then down to one duplicate there's a 33% chance it hits you. It's very good against targets that hit hard, but the mileage may get cut short if there's a few smaller pests around on the battlefield or enemies with an abundance of Multi-attacks.
You can get a lot of mileage out of Armor of Agathys, especially in combination with Fiendish Vigor. But mainly in tier 1-2 play. It has to be a melee attack roll that hits to trigger the damage, and the Temp HP is trailing behind Cure Wounds. Temp Hp can be preemptively put up, which makes it very good but I believe it is getting overrated as a survival tool in combat at tier 3+.
Also just to note the Pacts are the only Invocations available at Warlock level 1. So you don't get BA 50 feet movement before Rogues and Monks get BA 60 feet movement. Besides I've never known movement to be correlated to defenses unless you're ranged, meaning kiting, or have the ability to get in and out of combat with that movement to effectively be ranged.
monk has to get dex and wisdom to get warlock AC,
monk is not a non tank, monk fighter and barbarian can all survive in melee well in mellee and warlock is by the numbers similar to them. Hexblade destroys rogue in survivability. Rogue can play with mobility style.
monk can not.
many people think that monk is supposed to use its BA to leave melee range who dont play monk, it isnt.
a monk who goes into melee range and out of melee range makes 1 attack per round before level 5 and two attacks per round after level 5. monk has no damage riders, no fighting styles, no masteries and no special abilities which synergize with its attack action. a monk who doesnt use its BA is the worst martial in the game before 5, and the worst class in the game after five (you do as much or more damage with booming blade or green flame blade at 5)
monk pre level 5, going into melee and leaving with BA step of the wind = 1d6+3 dpr per round, no on hit effects, control, damage soaking, protection or anything valuable to the group
monk at level 5 would do (d8+4)*2 =17 dpr green flame blade with any weapon or effect, equals this (using a d10 or higher weapon surpasses it) booming blade is d8+4+3d8=22 max and 13 if not triggered, average is 17.5 at 11, this monk is worse than a caster using no spells.
you provide more of value by using ranged attacks and spamming dodge, because at least if they target you you have higher chance not getting hit.
erase from your mind that monks mobility is defensive. its for utility, and cutting distance. Monk will serve the party better eating damage with deflect attacks than leaving melee range.
hexblade has defensive features. arcane vigor, blade ward, mirror images, armor of agathys, bane, wrathful smite, staggering smite, shadow of moil, armor of hexes, fiendish vigor, hungering hex. Why are we pretending a warlock is like a fighter who just has its AC and second wind. or a barb who just has rage.
monk/fighter/barbarian/warlock can all last similar amount of rounds.
warlock is not MAD because it has use for constitution, everyone has use for constitution. the best way to be good at con saves to take feats, not your base constitution. And shockingly, concentration spells are designed with them failing as part of their power budget, almost any concentration spells that lasts two rounds out performs a non concentration spell. Heres the thing, i think warlocks and some other casters have had very strong advantages when specializing into martial styles so they are used to having everything they could want.
most martials dont get to be good at casting, good at martial, good at con and good at ranged at the same time.
the chr/dex warlock (its main stat is chr btw, dex is secondary, and doesnt even need to go past 16 or 18) that i am talking about
is not inferior to fighter. fighter doesnt get pact magic, it doesnt get invocations, fighter cannot frighten opponents on hit, it cant force disadvantage on saves, it cant stunlock enemies for 2 rounds, it cant cast darkness, it cant deflect attacks, it doesnt have level 6 7 8 9 spells, it cant do elemental damage, Warlock is actually objectively stronger than fighter in defense and offense until it gets to level 11+ where it becomes competitive
they dont play similar, they dont have similar capabilities. the only thing fighter has over warlock, in 2024 is resting AC, which is inferior to warlocks spell and feature based defenses
Above is a lot of words used with very little meaning. I try to use less words.
The level you get features at mattes a lot. To argue otherwise is disingenuous.
Disengage and teleportation are the mobility I’ve been talking about. Archery is the skirmisher warlock, I want Hexblade to remain the partial tank warlock.
I have never said monk will do anything, I literally said monk can do both things. Having disengage, dodge, and deflect attacks means monks can choose their play style on the fly and still have the other option if things don’t workout.
This is pointless because you are using every possible warlock build to counter without acknowledging that no one build can do all the stuff you are saying.
Also if they update Hexblade then you can’t use old Hexblade anymore by RAI, RAW. As of now old Hexblade is allowed in all 2024 games by RAW, and RAI. If you going to say people can play however they want then it’s pointless to even talk about the game.
it would be somewhat ok with light armor, if he had shield prof. or if getting medium armor prof. still granted you the shield prof.
but as it is, we have been presented with a class that needs to take 2 feats ( 1 of them for the shield & 1 for the medium armor ) to be somewhat survivalbe.
i can understand they wanted to nerf the old hexblade, but as it is presented it is the same concept they did with the paladin class, completly destroy the concept behind this subclass of a warlock that could melee and even take a hit.
As for the people saying you get the same AC with light armor as you do with medium is not a valid point imho, as the hexblade has no skirmishing abilities ( i would never use a 5th lvl spell slot for mirror image, mystic step ) they depend on going sword & board
so to have a realistic stat distr. ( chr 17, dex, 16, con 14, dump the rest ) you end up with :
light armor : 12 + 3 = AC 15, that might look decent at lvl 1, but lvl 5+ its a death wish
medium armor + shield = 15 + 2 ( dex ) + 2 ( shield ) thats 19, we are already talking about a 20% hit chance diff.
the only way you would not use a sword & board would be if you wanted to use a 2h weapon, for which you don't have the stats ( 13+ str also needed )
The rai and raw of making use of the PHB and core books is that it does not replace anything but the core books.
what ever additional books you use, whether 2014 or 2024 are completely up to the DM. Wizards officially and repeatedly have said that 2024 is designed not to invalidate old books. there is nothing in the rai or raw that says you cant use 2014 content, they soecifically said you can.
.lets just compare lvl 3 potential
melee/ranged hybrid hexblade build
pact of the blade otherworldly leap fiendish vigor; magic initiate mage armor. Chr 17 dex 16 Con 14
ranged hex DPR light xbow, 1d8+3+d6. can force 1 one of 3 effects on hit, slow/op attack, take damage if attack anyone else, or disadvantage on next save. dpr 11.
melee hex DPR change as you need, longsword 12 dpr, twf when you have a BA 15-16dpr depending if you use pact weapon or not. + 4.5 if booming blade triggers.
cantrips: booming blade blade ward
spells mirror image, expeditious retreat, misty step, armor of agathys. hex arcane vigor, magic weapon.
this guy with fiendish vigor has 36max hp, 16 ac. can cast two spells per SR, and recover 1 freebie per day. with blade ward, they are close to the Ac of the dodge action, they surpass it with mirror image, while only giving up 3.5 damage (hex). they can use armor of agathys for defense and refresh it with fiendish vigor, dealing 10 damage when they take hits
monk at the same level 24 hp, 16 AC. 3 ki per short rest. refil one per day.
ranged damage = 6.5 melee damage. melee damage without ki when BA available = 13 dmg.
if monk didnt have deflect attacks this would be an obvious blow out.
fighter, same level
28 hp, 16-17 AC unless they some how got plate armor already. no active defense abilities, can equip a shield for+2 ac (less than blade ward)
ranged damage 8.5 (d10+3) melee damage with BA 13 (twf) or 9.5 if dueling with shield. 10 if 2d6 weapon.
So tell me again how low level hexblade is somehow inferior to martials without medium armor at low levels. The hexblade is the clear superior here.
better offense, survivability, movement (50 versus monks 40) can dash as a BA with expeditious if needed (=80 feet of monk dash) melee damage. can misty step tonescape if they wish. All fighter has going for it is mastery utility.
and they can change 1 invocation per level, and change out mage armor as a spell if they want when they level, so they arent married to this for level 4+ they can pick up agonizing blast when it actually is more damage, and drop fiendish vigor when its not that useful. they can also swap spells
they could also start with 13 con and 12 str if they plan to eventually get warcaster and want GWM options in combat later.
Hexblade is mechanically on par with other martials, superior in t1 and t2.
they dont need medium armor to be viable, they are not offensively or defensively lacking.
you can pick up mage armor spell or use invocation to get 16 armor.
and the fact that warlocks might cheaply use eldritch blast while using a shield is a reason its not a good idea to build it into the baseline.
outside of this, a sword and board user can only have d8 damage, and 2 attacks, unless they are a fighter, (who wont get 4 attacks until 20)
i dont think the best sword and board build should be eldritch blast.
and, warlock can actually get 5 attacks if they invest in dual wielding, so that is also an option with some merit.
Um.. obviously? You use a 5th level spell slot for Synaptic Static which debuffs enemy attack rolls giving the entire party an effective +3.5 bonus to AC. Or you use it for Shadow of Moil or Greater Invisibility which makes enemy attacks against you permanently at disadvantage giving an effective +3-+5 AC. It's very simple design: If a caster wants to keep up in melee they have to spend their spellslots to do so. No free lunches anymore, either you cast spells to do spell-things and are weaker in melee, or you spend spellslots to do melee-stuff and keep up with martials who don't get that choice.