Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.
100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.
For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.
I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.
Yeah, the Psion as given does feel like something you could reproduce with a Sorcerer; the energy dice just adds complexity without achieving that much.
I can understand why they used spells. I mean, if you decided you wanted a system of 'per day' powers, by the time you had defined the parameters of those powers and how many times they could be used then...well, you would end up with the existing spellcasting system anyway. No point reinventing the wheel.
But I would still like to see a version of the Psion that's only a half-caster, where the role of Psionic Disciplines is massively expanded instead (a bit like Warlock invocations perhaps), with more of a 'tree' of level-gated Disciplines.
Some Psionic Disciplines could add lower level spells slots or give you a higher-level spell + spell slot, allowing access to spell levels a half-caster wouldn't normally reach. That way, if you wanted to lean heavily into spellcasting (and make people's heads explode with Psychic Scream) you could. But other Psionic Disciplines could, as others have said, just give straight up psychic powers (perhaps "boostable" using energy dice) or build on some of psychic-based spells. E.g:
"Psychic Defense: You have resistance to Psychic damage. Whenever you fail an Int, Wis or Cha saving throw you may expend and roll a Psionic Energy Die and add the result, potentially turning the failure into a success"
"Enhanced Mind Sliver: Whenever you cast Mind Sliver you may add your Int modifier to the damage roll. In addition, whenever you cause damage with Mind Sliver you may expend and roll a Psionic Damage Die. The target subtracts that number from their next Saving Throw instead of the normal d4".
if a psion is a half caster, then they will be inferior at psionics than a wizard, by a large margin.
what half caster means design wise, without some special unique design elements, is that you dont need to use spells to be good. with your base kit, and some useful spells, you can be as effective as anyone.
now, while nothing is innherrently wrong with a half caster.
a level 20 psion should be at least as good as a wizard at telekinesis, telepathy, manipluating time space, clairvoyance, altering fate.
now, doing that on a half caster chassis is going to be pretty rough, and probably involve recreating similar functionality to many spells through features somehow.
Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.
100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.
For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.
I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.
Yeah, the Psion as given does feel like something you could reproduce with a Sorcerer; the energy dice just adds complexity without achieving that much.
I can understand why they used spells. I mean, if you decided you wanted a system of 'per day' powers, by the time you had defined the parameters of those powers and how many times they could be used then...well, you would end up with the existing spellcasting system anyway. No point reinventing the wheel.
But I would still like to see a version of the Psion that's only a half-caster, where the role of Psionic Disciplines is massively expanded instead (a bit like Warlock invocations perhaps), with more of a 'tree' of level-gated Disciplines.
Some Psionic Disciplines could add lower level spells slots or give you a higher-level spell + spell slot, allowing access to spell levels a half-caster wouldn't normally reach. That way, if you wanted to lean heavily into spellcasting (and make people's heads explode with Psychic Scream) you could. But other Psionic Disciplines could, as others have said, just give straight up psychic powers (perhaps "boostable" using energy dice) or build on some of psychic-based spells. E.g:
"Psychic Defense: You have resistance to Psychic damage. Whenever you fail an Int, Wis or Cha saving throw you may expend and roll a Psionic Energy Die and add the result, potentially turning the failure into a success"
"Enhanced Mind Sliver: Whenever you cast Mind Sliver you may add your Int modifier to the damage roll. In addition, whenever you cause damage with Mind Sliver you may expend and roll a Psionic Damage Die. The target subtracts that number from their next Saving Throw instead of the normal d4".
if a psion is a half caster, then they will be inferior at psionics than a wizard, by a large margin.
what half caster means design wise, without some special unique design elements, is that you dont need to use spells to be good. with your base kit, and some useful spells, you can be as effective as anyone.
now, while nothing is innherrently wrong with a half caster.
a level 20 psion should be at least as good as a wizard at telekinesis, telepathy, manipluating time space, clairvoyance, altering fate.
now, doing that on a half caster chassis is going to be pretty rough, and probably involve recreating similar functionality to many spells through features somehow.
Which is why I suggested expanded the role of Psionic Disciplines to give more direct powers.
Yes, maybe this will end up a little bit like spells by another name without a bit of thought. But as you say "without some special unique design elements...". I'm suggesting expanding the use of Psionic Disciplines to be those special unique design elements.
A lot of people here are saying that the current iteration of the Psion is too close to a Wizard with this "Psionic Energy Die" tacked on. I was just trying to suggest an alternative that isn't so "Wizardy". Is a Psion class even necessary when you could play a Wizard or Sorcerer and just pick up "psychic-related" spells?
Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.
I don't necessarily like the spellcasting aspect of psionics, but unless you are going to make Psions extremely simple I don't know how you make them in 5e without spells. Again in 5e spells cover almost everything a psion needs to do. If you want them to write new book with a ton of features for Psion that all do what the spells already do, but aren't spells, I consider that a waste. I would never purchase that book, and I wouldn't allow it to be played at my tables. Powers and Spells are literally the same thing mechanically in the game. I can't see a reason to create a new Powers system, when it can be covered by spells. The only problem that I believe that needs to be addressed is that if you make Psions just fullcasters they are too similar to wizards and sorcerers in 5e. My mock ups were attempts to find something that is mechanically different while still using the assets that already exist in the game. I even attempted mock up that didnt use spells, but I found myself realizing every feature I tried to make was really just an altered spell or combined spells.
Also I don't like the UA version. If it were released I wouldn't buy that book, but I would allow someone to play it at my table if they wanted.
Never said they should copy paste. But you seem to like the spellcasting aspect of this version more than I do. I would never play it or have it played at my table as a DM. It's not a Psionic it's a mage with extra feats.
100%. There are a few aspects that could have made this class feel like a psionicist but IMO they totally missed the mark by making them spellcasters in the usual D&D sense. I love playing a Wizard but in many ways they are the "glass cannons" and spell slots end up being a limiting factor only mitigated by the introduction of the damage-scaling combat cantrips available in the modern editions. They have a distinct feel to play and that's not how I would want a psionicist to play. To be worthwhile it needs to be different, and it's not. Bolting on energy dice is just an over-complication, not a feature. The game already has plenty of spellcaster variants and I'm certain they will continue to proliferate.
For a "Psion" to feel like a psionics user, it would need to lean into the concept of "Mind Over (Fill in the blank). Mind over Body, Mind over Matter, Mind over Mind, etc. WotC is treating it like a mechanical effect ("Cast Detect Thoughts") instead of an inborn talent honed by skill and practice. Cast this spell, get X result. I'd like something more nuanced than that. Reading someone's mind should feel more like [ Psionic Ability + Psionic Skill ] vs [ Target's resistance + Difficulty ], roll vs DC [ X ] to succeed. They shouldn't be limited to doing it a few times a day like a Wizard would. Yes, there should be some limiting factor but spell slots don't feel the right way to do it.
I don't blame them for not wanting to invent a whole new "magic" system and reinventing mechanical effects (spells) that already exist in the game. Honestly, I get it. But if that's all the effort they want to put into it, they should've just modeled the mechanics off of either the Sorcerer or the Warlock class and kept it simple and not pretend to have done something different.
Yeah, the Psion as given does feel like something you could reproduce with a Sorcerer; the energy dice just adds complexity without achieving that much.
I can understand why they used spells. I mean, if you decided you wanted a system of 'per day' powers, by the time you had defined the parameters of those powers and how many times they could be used then...well, you would end up with the existing spellcasting system anyway. No point reinventing the wheel.
But I would still like to see a version of the Psion that's only a half-caster, where the role of Psionic Disciplines is massively expanded instead (a bit like Warlock invocations perhaps), with more of a 'tree' of level-gated Disciplines.
Some Psionic Disciplines could add lower level spells slots or give you a higher-level spell + spell slot, allowing access to spell levels a half-caster wouldn't normally reach. That way, if you wanted to lean heavily into spellcasting (and make people's heads explode with Psychic Scream) you could. But other Psionic Disciplines could, as others have said, just give straight up psychic powers (perhaps "boostable" using energy dice) or build on some of psychic-based spells. E.g:
"Psychic Defense: You have resistance to Psychic damage. Whenever you fail an Int, Wis or Cha saving throw you may expend and roll a Psionic Energy Die and add the result, potentially turning the failure into a success"
"Enhanced Mind Sliver: Whenever you cast Mind Sliver you may add your Int modifier to the damage roll. In addition, whenever you cause damage with Mind Sliver you may expend and roll a Psionic Damage Die. The target subtracts that number from their next Saving Throw instead of the normal d4".
if a psion is a half caster, then they will be inferior at psionics than a wizard, by a large margin.
what half caster means design wise, without some special unique design elements, is that you dont need to use spells to be good. with your base kit, and some useful spells, you can be as effective as anyone.
now, while nothing is innherrently wrong with a half caster.
a level 20 psion should be at least as good as a wizard at telekinesis, telepathy, manipluating time space, clairvoyance, altering fate.
now, doing that on a half caster chassis is going to be pretty rough, and probably involve recreating similar functionality to many spells through features somehow.
Which is why I suggested expanded the role of Psionic Disciplines to give more direct powers.
Yes, maybe this will end up a little bit like spells by another name without a bit of thought. But as you say "without some special unique design elements...". I'm suggesting expanding the use of Psionic Disciplines to be those special unique design elements.
A lot of people here are saying that the current iteration of the Psion is too close to a Wizard with this "Psionic Energy Die" tacked on. I was just trying to suggest an alternative that isn't so "Wizardy". Is a Psion class even necessary when you could play a Wizard or Sorcerer and just pick up "psychic-related" spells?
Do you have any alternative suggestions?
some of the feedback is, "too similar to wizard" but we have no numbers here, we cant say that this is the consensus view point or even a common view point. We cant say however say our on opinions, and reasoning and evaluate that.
This is a subforum, frequented by people who are more interested than most of the playerbase in novel designs, restructuring, consolidation, etc. in this same forum some people say sorcerer is too similar to wizard. People have argued that monk should just be fighter subclass during the UA, or also that monk should be a half caster. Just because a couple of people in conversation here doesnt mean we should change our design specifications.
I think the idea that psion is very similar to wizard is IMO not very accurate.
Wizard has a fundamentally different form of spell casting which dramatically alters how it plays, and its features reinforce this. They have an extremely expansive spell list, they canlearn as much spells as they have resources for, and can change their spell choices on a daily basis.
the gameplay and questions/choices a psion must deal with and what a wizard chooses or deals with is not very similar at all. Other than wizard having access to the spells psion has there isnt much similarity as far as casters go, other than both being int based.
Its a lot closer to a sorcerer, but still doesnt really play out the same since none of its features are going to alter its magic potential much (cant turn energy into spell slots) and a lot of the effects and use of ED are not directly related to spells. Neither sorcerer, nor wizard has any feature not related to spells, psion has many. And also sorcerer's spell list is noticeably more expansive, which means psion isnt depending as much on its spells, because they just cant.
psion in actual play, without ignoring subclass design which is way more of a package deal the some other classes, doesnt feel like playing these other classes. You tend to be much more focused on your ED than your spell slots.
If the feedback suggested, regardless that people want more diffrentiation.
I'd probably do something where casting spells above a certain level while in a "energetic" state would give extra benefits. Getting into an "energetic" state would involve using energy dice abilities.
another possibility is still using "spells" but stripping them of their "spell" status. You can create the effects of certain spells, if you expend some seperate resource. but this would likely touch too many rules and balance things.As well as probably ending up as new system to learn/ and balance against the spell slots system, which has a high overhead in design.
its highly likely people wont want to incorporate such a class in their games since it has the potential to mess with everything else they already designed.
i think in reality if you want to diffrentiate it from other casters, i dont think the spell structure is the way to go, It can be done, but that uses a lot of the psions design space on something which is kinda of going to be designed to be ultimately the same end result of the current system (or else it will cause lots of design/balance problems)
unless its somehow enhancing the flavor/fantasy/fun of the class at the same time as being different its definitely not worth it.
and i dont think its on the table for them. If the psion class concept requires that level of regiggering/balancing, and a whole book, they would probably just shelve the concept and move on.
this is probably supposed to be a few pages ina a 170 page book, an interesting addition, not a book in and of itself.
While a Psion has less spells to choose from as a UA Psion you very much cast as the same as a wizard. The per turn gameplay is not more focused on energy dice than spell selection. Choosing the correct spell to cast is far more important than how to alter it with ED or use your Psionic Power or Discipline features. Most people suggesting half caster are suggesting the focus be put on something other than just spellcasting. We understand that spellcasting needs to be part of the class because the things that make do psychic stuff in 5e are covered by spells already. There is no need for a lengthy psionic powers book that has a bunch of spells rewritten into powers. A new class should bring something new to the game or it doesn’t serve a purpose. If the core Psion class focuses on ED only as much as Psi warrior and Soul Knife that is a design problem in my eyes. If you remove the body horror fantasy from Abberant sorcerer you have just as good of a Psion as the UA subclass. Literally making a Wizard sub class that just got ED and psionic spellcasting would cover 90% of what the Psion class offers in regard to feeling like and ability to roleplay a person with psionic powers. What’s crazy is as a Wizard subclass it opens more possibilities because I am free to select more variety of spells. Considering I have already concluded we view the game differently, I’m not saying any of this to persuade you. I’m saying it to simply voice the opposing opinion. This doesn’t negate your experience, just highlights your experience is not the only experience.
The psion as designed in the UA is not actually defined primarily by what spells it chooses to cast each round.
it doesnt have that many choices for spells. it doesnt even have to cast a leveled spell every round to be highly effective. A much larger part of the gameplay and design weight is on other things.
the main reason a psion is a full caster is so it has access to existing psionic mechanics (which are mostly spells), and so those spells arent weak. but it is not like sorcerer and wizard whose entire design and fanatsy is about manipluating spells, or having more access than everyone else.
these aspects you seem to mostly ignore are defining aspects of the class and its gameplay.
Its like you are looking at monk design and handwaving ki and focus, and saying its basically just a fighter
furthermore you seem to suggest (extending the analogy) that a fighter subclass could house the entire suite of monk/martial artist fanatsies that exist/people want
i think a lot of the fantasies that can be represented by psion were poorly represented by the existing choices, and i can think of even more that might be possible with a psion subclass, or expanding the base classes disciplines.
but as you said we disagree, this is mostly for others to evaluate our positions and take from it what they may.
as an illustration this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMtmCEn5r4 clims they ve been trying to build this char concept for years and they find this new class/subclass to be the best fit offering unique gameplay and build options they wouldnt normally get from any other class combination
and that to me is what you are looking for when you make a new class
If the UA psion cast a cantrip it would be similar as effective a wizard casting a cantrip. I'm not sure the why you believe that there is any difference. I'm just not seeing it. We agree that the main reason the Psion has spells is that the majority of existing psionic mechanics are spells. What we disagree on is that they have to be a full caster to benefit from these spells. There are other options that would differentiate them from Wizards while giving them access to these mechanics. These options would allow for more focus on ED and Disciplines. I know you feel like there is plenty of focus on ED, but I just didn't get that.
My argument that this UA Psion class could be completely covered by a wizard subclass is not the same as a Monk as the Fighter subclass. Mainly because you couldn't capture the fantasy of most of the monks subclasses if you did that. If you give a Wizard subclass Psionic Power and psionic casting at 3rd level you can literally meet the fantasy of 3 of the subclasses offered in the UA with proper spell selection. You could actually cover more Psionic character types than what this UA offers because you would have a larger spell selection. I could play a Pyrokinetic, Electrokinetic, be a Clairvoyant, and etc. The point of this argument isn't that we should only get a Psionic Wizard subclass. It's that if we get a Psionic Wizard subclass it shouldn't make me feel like playing a Psion is pointless. Imagine a Complete Psionics book came out and it introduced ED to all the classes that don't have a subclass with it, and this UA psion. Do you believe that the Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses with ED wouldn't fulfill most Psionic fantasies better than this Psion? From my prospective they would. I don't think that is even fixed by making the Psion a half caster or differentiating it from the Wizard mechanically. I'm just saying if I'm getting a new class I would like it to feel different mechanically, because the fantasy of a Psion is 90% covered with Psionic Casting/Subtle Spell and the correct spell selections. The mechanics of being a Psionic should be something different. Not so different you have to go into a Powers system, but definitely not what was offered in the UA.
Now that I'm thinking about it they should have used that half caster UA Warlock build. It wasn't bad and I loved at first glance, but it didn't fully work as a Warlock for me. It must have gotten down voted into oblivion because it only made it one round of play test. If they would have used if for a Psion it would have been unique at least.
"Imagine a Complete Psionics book came out and it introduced ED to all the classes that don't have a subclass with it..."
Yes, I can imagine it. As part of a new campaign sourcebook. I'm actually experimenting with the idea of "Universal Subclasses" that can be applied to each of the major classes in the game. Psionic would be a perfect candidate for that kind of thing. You could start out with a Psionic Wild Talent feat and then subclass as a Psionic.
They playtested that a few years back. But since the base classes don’t all get their subclass features at the same levels and Bards only get 3 subclass features it was shot down. I don’t know if it was because of the UA results or something internal. It’s just easier to design separate subclasses for each class that use similar features. I hope you find a work around that makes sense for your universal subclass. I like the idea of it.
A wizard is not a good base for a psion fantasy because a wizard has too much spell generality and focus on spell casting. A wizard is Doctor strange, even if doctor strange has/uses some psionic abilities, he is more defined by everything else he can do. You wnt make someone feel like professor X, if they have all the powers of Doc Strange.
What a class doesnt have is important as what it has in terms of class design.
When designing a class/subclass they dont have infinite budget. While on paper you can just add every/any feature, thats not great class design, and its not how classes/subclass are generally designed. if a wizard 'subclass' had the entirety of features of base psion, telepath, psiwarper, psikinetic, and metamorph, that would just be an overpowered and poorly designed class.
its not good class/subclass design to create new mechanics that dont serve a purpose in flavor/feel/gameplay that aligns with the class fantasy. Being different is not useful in and of itself in designing classes. In fact being different for sake of being different often hurts the class design because decisions are being made that aren't primarily focused on making the design better at what its supposed to do.
A wizard is not a good base for a psion fantasy because a wizard has too much spell generality and focus on spell casting. A wizard is Doctor strange, even if doctor strange has/uses some psionic abilities, he is more defined by everything else he can do. You wnt make someone feel like professor X, if they have all the powers of Doc Strange.
What a class doesnt have is important as what it has in terms of class design.
When designing a class/subclass they dont have infinite budget. While on paper you can just add every/any feature, thats not great class design, and its not how classes/subclass are generally designed. if a wizard 'subclass' had the entirety of features of base psion, telepath, psiwarper, psikinetic, and metamorph, that would just be an overpowered and poorly designed class.
its not good class/subclass design to create new mechanics that dont serve a purpose in flavor/feel/gameplay that aligns with the class fantasy. Being different is not useful in and of itself in designing classes. In fact being different for sake of being different often hurts the class design because decisions are being made that aren't primarily focused on making the design better at what its supposed to do.
Yeah, but making everything the same is worse. Making the Psion like this gives us three Classes that use the same chassis. It is boring an uninspired.
I believe the Psion has two major issues: a lack of clear identity and a lack of unique mechanics. ( as a caster, in short we alreayd have way too many generic full casters, but we only have one special caster, the Warlock)
Some people might say, “Of course it’s unique, it has mind powers and psionics, no other class has that.” But to me, that’s just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The presence of psionics isn't enough. What truly matters is understanding where the Psion fits in the wider ecosystem of classes. What is its purpose? What is its core fantasy? What role does it fulfill on the team, and what archetype does it serve?
This confusion becomes more evident when we ask what space in the “class pie” the Psion is meant to fill. Right now, it seems to exist in a sort of identity vacuum. It has psionics, yes, but what is psionics, really? Most people just call it “mind magic,” but if you dig into the lore, psionics and ki are actually opposite sides of the same coin. Ki is body energy, monks train in physical and spiritual discipline to harness it. Psionics is mind energy, achieved through mental discipline and introspection. They are spiritual counterparts, rooted in mastery and inner power.
That’s where I think the Psion (or Mystic) should fit: as the magical counterpart to the Monk. One trains the body to transcend it; the other trains the mind. That distinction gives the Psion a clear identity and purpose. It doesn’t have to be a clone of the wizard or the sorcerer. It should stand beside them, but not in their shadow.
This also ties into the long-running debate: is psionics just another form of magic, or is it something fundamentally different? Personally, I think it’s fine for the Psion to be a caster, but not just another caster using the exact same spell slot system, and generic full caster tabble. If you want psionics to feel different, it needs to function differently.
That’s why I strongly believe the Psion should use a power point system, like "psionic points" as it has in earlier editions. It’s a classic mechanic that reflects how psionic energy is directed and spent, and it creates a clear mechanical divide between magic and psionics. Using Point in the place of spell slots would give the class a more unique nature and identity, also i feel that the game already has too many generic full casters maybe is time to create another special caster, by giving the Psion a similar spell table to the one the Warlock uses.
Another issue is that right now it thematic overlap with existing classes, particularly the wizard and sorcerer. If the Psion gains their powers through study, is it just a mind-wizard? If they’re born with it, are they just a mind-sorcerer? I think the Psion should follow the same conceptual path as the Monk, someone who wasn’t born with magic or trained in arcane theory, but someone who awakened their power through discipline and self-mastery.
In short, the monk represents the power of the body, and the psion represents the power of the mind. That’s a strong thematic identity. The more we lean into that, the more space the Psion has to grow into something truly distinct and memorable.
As a final suggestion, I’d love to see the Psion’s identity reinforced through the introduction of a new “school” or category of magic, something like psychokinesis. This could be a distinct set of spells accessible only to Psions or characters with psionic feats. These spells wouldn’t use spell slots but would operate on a point-based system, further reinforcing the idea that psionics are a separate, inner force rather than just another arcane tradition.
Done well, the Psion has the potential to be a truly iconic class. But it needs a firmer identity, mechanical distinction, and a clearer role within the class lineup to get there.
I believe the Psion has two major issues: a lack of clear identity and a lack of unique mechanics. ( as a caster, in short we alreayd have way too many generic full casters, but we only have one special caster, the Warlock)
Some people might say, “Of course it’s unique, it has mind powers and psionics, no other class has that.” But to me, that’s just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The presence of psionics isn't enough. What truly matters is understanding where the Psion fits in the wider ecosystem of classes. What is its purpose? What is its core fantasy? What role does it fulfill on the team, and what archetype does it serve?
This confusion becomes more evident when we ask what space in the “class pie” the Psion is meant to fill. Right now, it seems to exist in a sort of identity vacuum. It has psionics, yes, but what is psionics, really? Most people just call it “mind magic,” but if you dig into the lore, psionics and ki are actually opposite sides of the same coin. Ki is body energy, monks train in physical and spiritual discipline to harness it. Psionics is mind energy, achieved through mental discipline and introspection. They are spiritual counterparts, rooted in mastery and inner power.
That’s where I think the Psion (or Mystic) should fit: as the magical counterpart to the Monk. One trains the body to transcend it; the other trains the mind. That distinction gives the Psion a clear identity and purpose. It doesn’t have to be a clone of the wizard or the sorcerer. It should stand beside them, but not in their shadow.
This also ties into the long-running debate: is psionics just another form of magic, or is it something fundamentally different? Personally, I think it’s fine for the Psion to be a caster, but not just another caster using the exact same spell slot system, and generic full caster tabble. If you want psionics to feel different, it needs to function differently.
That’s why I strongly believe the Psion should use a power point system, like "psionic points" as it has in earlier editions. It’s a classic mechanic that reflects how psionic energy is directed and spent, and it creates a clear mechanical divide between magic and psionics. Using Point in the place of spell slots would give the class a more unique nature and identity, also i feel that the game already has too many generic full casters maybe is time to create another special caster, by giving the Psion a similar spell table to the one the Warlock uses.
Another issue is that right now it thematic overlap with existing classes, particularly the wizard and sorcerer. If the Psion gains their powers through study, is it just a mind-wizard? If they’re born with it, are they just a mind-sorcerer? I think the Psion should follow the same conceptual path as the Monk, someone who wasn’t born with magic or trained in arcane theory, but someone who awakened their power through discipline and self-mastery.
In short, the monk represents the power of the body, and the psion represents the power of the mind. That’s a strong thematic identity. The more we lean into that, the more space the Psion has to grow into something truly distinct and memorable.
As a final suggestion, I’d love to see the Psion’s identity reinforced through the introduction of a new “school” or category of magic, something like psychokinesis. This could be a distinct set of spells accessible only to Psions or characters with psionic feats. These spells wouldn’t use spell slots but would operate on a point-based system, further reinforcing the idea that psionics are a separate, inner force rather than just another arcane tradition.
Done well, the Psion has the potential to be a truly iconic class. But it needs a firmer identity, mechanical distinction, and a clearer role within the class lineup to get there.
monk is not the body guy, they are the mind/body guy who isnt doing 'magic' the fantasy of monk is based on training.
the fantasy of psion is rarely learned, its most often wither achieved by birth/evolution or scientific experminentation. There are some cases of awakening but even those are more seen as miraculus and unexpected, rather than being the compliment of a monk, which is gnerally see as being avaialble to anyone who puts in the work.
jean grey (born) tetsuo shima (born+enhanced by science) nostradamus (born) Altered states (experminent) new types (born)
The sorcerer can't own the concept of innate ability, that makes little sense, as races exist with innate ability. In fact its probably a very under represented concept in dnd, in terms of classes, there are many learned magic/ability users there are few innate ones.
The difference between a psion and a sorcerer fantasy wise is mostly the sorcerer tends to represent something old, and is specifically tied to magic/spells. the psion tends to represent something new/evolved and is not specifically tied magic (usually not magic actually) psionics often alter physical phenomena directly.
monks and psionics are not in fantasy opposite ends of the spectrum, in fact they are often blended, like a jedi, or many other stories, where the psion's innate potential needs rigorous mind and body training to fully harness.
As far as combat roles and whatnot, that is not the cornerstone of dnd class design, sure builds can have roles, but the design of 5e is primarily about fulfilling a fantasy, and whatever mechanics/roles that make sense to be tied to that fantasy are tied to it. Its not a game where a group should need any one 'role' in order to play. You can have a group of theives, you can have a varied party, you can have a soldier themed group. the important thing is that the classes feel like the fantasy of what being that type of charachter would be like.
as to the actual class, many people here feel like they took a very shallow look at what the class actually is and how its played. The spell part of the class is only one aspect of the class, the Energy features and mechanics have a lot of weight, and they are not actually similar to sorcerers in what they do and how they are incorporated into the class. there are only 4 uses of energy that are explcitly targeting spells. There are 11main class, and usually 3-4 subclass uses for energy that are not explicitly tied to spells. That is very different froma sorcerer.
the psion as written has the power level of a full caster with spells, but its gameplay is actually evenly split between spells and energy. Id say its probably the least spell focused full caster in terms of gameplay, which is unique.
Lastly, im not really that opposed to it using some gimmick so its 'spell' use seems different, but almost all of the ideas i have seen to do so dont look like great designs that are adding more to the fantasy/gameplay that they take away.
one common idea is an energy pool that powers both psionic features and spells,(or interoptability between the two resources) the flaw in that is that using spells will then come at the cost of being less psionic. And since spells generally have a dominating power structure, it becomes hard for any feature to compete with spells at a certain level given the choice. it also creates a scalability issue.
the other problem is that a lot of design space and effort is usually put into making the energy system different, but that doesnt really usually fit more into a psion fantasy. there is nothing about having say 100 energy to split up into spells that feels more like a psion fantasy, or enhances the gameplay. its pretty arbitrary.
thats not to say their isnt some other resource system that ties into the fanatsy in an interesting way that could exist, but i havent seen it suggested yet.
and lastly alot of these reworks would require a lot more complexity redesign and balance than most players are willing to engage with, more than most DMs are willing to engage with on top of their other reqs, and more than the designers are willing to introduce into the 5e ecosystem.
i see a bunch of rules/mechanics guys who want to have new toys in this new class, but they are ignoring that the class needs to work within the specifications of 5e. Its not really an opportunity for radical change/design because 5e is made to be relatively streamlined (compared to dnd hustorically) easy to get into new classes, and its at this point the tried and true thing, not the innovative new and challenging(design wise) thing.
So for those who love coming up with design, it would need to be no more complex than the current spell system, or less complex if it still involves the spell system, explainable with roughly the same space as other classes, it would need to make the gameplay feel more 'psiony' it would need to be balanced versus current systems/classes and preferably fairly easy to develop new content/tweaks/remixes/subclasses for.
which might seem simple but if you can do all that, its basically a genius level design. I think coming up with testing and balancing the current caster system probably took years (and i dont even really like the system)
They playtested that a few years back. But since the base classes don’t all get their subclass features at the same levels and Bards only get 3 subclass features it was shot down. I don’t know if it was because of the UA results or something internal. It’s just easier to design separate subclasses for each class that use similar features. I hope you find a work around that makes sense for your universal subclass. I like the idea of it.
Mechanically, you'd need to have a customized version of a "Universal" subclass anyway because the the D&D Beyond tool set doesn't support a subclass that isn't tied to a particular class.
There would be Barbarian/Psionic, Bard/Psionic, etc. I don't expect them to retool to accommodate the idea.
The ideas expressed by SilverSage178 and BlueBard_bluegeek are exactly what I am looking for when it comes to the identity and promise of what a psion could be. I honestly was not even interested in this class until I read what these posters came up with. I share their opinion that don’t want the Psion to feel like another caster, and I think there is value in re-centering the psion back towards the monk, because while Fighters and monks can do similar things, they do so in different ways and with distinct flavor. This is how the psion should compare and contrast with the other Vancian casters. I am no game designer by any means, but man, I hope they can nail this concept and come up with a refreshing new class.
as to the actual class, many people here feel like they took a very shallow look at what the class actually is and how its played. The spell part of the class is only one aspect of the class, the Energy features and mechanics have a lot of weight, and they are not actually similar to sorcerers in what they do and how they are incorporated into the class. there are only 4 uses of energy that are explcitly targeting spells. There are 11main class, and usually 3-4 subclass uses for energy that are not explicitly tied to spells. That is very different froma sorcerer.
This reads like, “every opinion that doesn’t align with mine is shallow.” And while it could be true (I don’t think so) I assure you this wouldn’t persuade anyone. I get that everyone believes their opinion is correct, my self included. I disagree with you about the weight of energy die and how different from a sorcerer or wizard a Psion plays in the current UA version. All the subclasses have features that are about casting a spell. The most common use a player will find for energy dice use is to alter a spell. Attack mode is all about altering spells and is just empowered spell for a minute. Telekinetic propel and telepathic connection come off as wasteful uses of ED unless you are in niche moments or playing a Psykinetic or Telepath. Oddly the UA Psion make me have to jump through a hoop to communicate telepathically. Aberrant Sorcerer and GOO Warlock seem to have it easier and I think soul knife does as well, but I haven’t played 2024 soul knife so that might not be true.
Most people posting on this forum want something different out of Psion. You aren’t wrong for liking the UA, but you are clearly the minority on this forum.
So this is basically the UA half caster Warlock, but instead of invocations that could be used as spells this just gives a spell slot. I also massively increased the number of ED, and spitballed some new disciplines to add to the list. To me this is different enough to not feel like a wizard, but not so different than the rest of the game that it feels, not 5e. Most importantly I’m not a numbers guy, or a real designer by any means. All of this is just me sharing ideas in hopes to inspire other’s ideas. This is not balanced.
LEVEL 1: MENTAL POWER Your mental power comes from the best qualities of your mind. You gain a Mental Power (MP) modifier equal to the highest stat between your Int, Wis, or Cha modifier. Additionally you learn one of the following Cantrips, it uses your MP modifier for its spellcasting ability, it requires no components when you cast it and has additional benefits. Learning a Cantrip on this list from some other feature does not grant these additional benefits unless the feature states you learn the Mental Power option.
Chill Touch: You can make the damage Psychic or Force and the range is 10ft.
Mage Hand: You can make the spectral hand Invisible when you cast it. You can replace one of your attacks to make an Unarmed Strike with the spectral hand against a target within 5ft of the hand. It uses your MP modifier for DC, Attack and Damage rolls and deals Force damage. Additionally your spectral hand can carry up to 15lbs. The weight it can carry increases when you reach specific levels in this class, 5th (20lbs), 11th(25lbs), and 17th (30lbs)
Message: You do not need to point in a direction, and it is only blocked by a thin sheet of lead. You can also make a creature who receives the message to make an Int saving throw. If they fail they take MP modifier psychic damage. Additionally the range is 200ft. The range is increased when you reach specific levels in this class, 5th(500ft) 11th(1000ft), 17th(½ Mile)
Thorn Whip: When you cast this spell you can make the whip invisible and deal Psychic damage or choose to not deal damage. If you pull a creature closer to you with the invisible whip it teleports the 10ft.
LEVEL 1: PSIONIC POWER You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy Dice. Your Psion level determines the die size and number of Psionic Energy Dice you have, as shown in the Energy Die and Number of Dice columns of the Psion Features table. Your Psionic Energy Dice are used to enhance or fuel certain Psion features. You start with two such features: Telekinetic Propel and Telepathic Connection, each of which is detailed below. Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy Dice, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when all your Psionic Energy Dice are expended. You regain a number of expended Psionic Energy Dice equal to half your Proficiency Bonus rounded up when you finish a Short Rest, and you regain all of them when you finish a Long Rest. Some features that use Psionic Energy Dice require your target to make a saving throw. The save DC equals the spell save DC from this class’s Spellcasting feature.
Telekinetic Propel. As a Bonus Action, choose one Large or smaller creature other than you that you can see within 30 feet of yourself, and then roll one Psionic Energy Die. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed or pulled (your choice) up to a number of feet straight away from yourself equal to 5 times the number rolled. The die is expended only if the target fails the saving throw.
Telepathic Connection. You have telepathy with a range of 10 feet. As a Bonus Action, you can expend one Psionic Energy Die and roll it. For a number of minutes equal to your Psion level, the range of your telepathy increases by a number of feet equal to 10 times the number rolled.
LEVEL 1: SPELLCASTING You have learned how to channel magical energy using the power of your mind. See the Player’s Handbook for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Psion spells, which appear in the Psion spell list later in the class’s description. Cantrips. You know two Psion cantrips of your choice. Minor Illusion and Telekinetic Fling are recommended. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one of your cantrips from this feature with another Psion cantrip of your choice. When you reach Psion levels 10 and 14, you learn another Psion cantrip of your choice, as shown in the Cantrips column of the Psion Features table. Spell Slots. The Psion Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your level 1+ spells. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a Long Rest. Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list with this feature. To start, choose two level 1 Psion spells. Dissonant Whispers, and Mage Armor are recommended. The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Psion levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Psion Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional Psion spells until the number of spells on your list matches the number in the table. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a level 3 Psion, your list of prepared spells can include four Psion spells of level 1. If another Psion feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Psion spells for you.
Changing Your Prepared Spells. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Psion spell of an eligible level.
Spellcasting Ability. Mental Power is your spellcasting ability for your Psion spells.
Psionic Spellcasting. When you cast a Psion spell, that spell doesn’t require a Verbal or Material component, even if the spell includes “V” or “M” in its “Components” entry, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell.
LEVEL 2: MENTAL MAGIC 1 You gain a Special level 1 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses your MP as its spellcasting ability and uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. Additionally as Magic Action you can expend a spellslot to do a Mental Assault. You choose a target within your telepathy range and force them to make an Int saving throw. They take 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level psychic damage on a failure.
LEVEL 2: PSIONIC DISCIPLINE You learn further psionic techniques that are fueled by your Psionic Energy Dice. You gain three disciplines of your choice, such as Expanded Awareness and Id Insinuation. Disciplines are described in the “Psionic Discipline Options” section later in this class’s description. You can use only one Discipline each turn and only once per turn unless otherwise noted in one of those options. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one of your Psionic Discipline options with one you don’t know. You gain three more options at Psion level 10 and three more at Psion level 17.
LEVEL 3: MENTAL MAGIC 2 You gain a Special level 2 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 2nd level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally you can expend a number of Psionic Energy Dice instead of a spell slot to use Mental Assault. You must expend a number of Energy Dice equal to the spell slot level. You may only expend a maximum number of Energy Dice equal to your highest Mental Magic number.
LEVEL 5: MENTAL MAGIC 3 You gain a Special level 3 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 3rd level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally when you perform a Mental Assault you add your MP modifier to one damage roll.
LEVEL 5: PSIONIC MODE You have honed your psionic powers to act as both a shield and a weapon in battle. As a Bonus Action, you can expend choose one of the following modes, granting you certain benefits for 1 minute or until you use this feature again:
Attack Mode. Damage from your weapon attacks, Psion spells, and Psion features ignores Resistance to Psychic damage. In addition, when you roll damage for a spell, you can expend one Psionic Energy Die to reroll a number of damage dice up to your MP modifier (minimum of one), and you must use the new rolls.
Defense Mode. You have Resistance to Psychic damage. In addition, when you fail an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma saving throw, you can take a Reaction to expend one Psionic Energy Die; roll the Psionic Energy Die and add the number rolled to the saving throw, potentially turning a failure into a success.
You can use this feature once and regain the ability to use it this way when you complete a long rest.You may also expend an Energy Die (no action needed) to restore a use of this feature.
LEVEL 7: MENTAL MAGIC 4 You gain a Special level 4 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 4th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally after you roll one or more Psionic Energy Dice, you can expend one of your Hit Point Dice and treat any roll of 1, 2, or 3 on those Psionic Energy Dice as a 4.
LEVEL 9: MENTAL MAGIC 5 You gain a Special level 5 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses your MP as its spellcasting ability and uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 5th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 9: WILD TALENT FEAT You gain a Wild Talent Feat of your choice even if you have already taken one. This Feat counts as a general feat for you.
LEVEL 11: MENTAL MAGIC 6 You gain a Special level 6 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 6th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally when a target succeeds on a saving throw when you perform Mental Assault they take half damage.
LEVEL 13: MENTAL MAGIC 7 You gain a Special level 7 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 7th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 15: MENTAL MAGIC 8 You gain a Special level 8 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 8th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 17: MENTAL MAGIC 9 You gain a Special level 9 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 9th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 18: ENKINDLED LIFEFORCE Once per turn, when you expend one Psionic Energy Die and roll it for a Psion feature or Psionic Discipline, you can expend two of your Hit Point Dice to roll two additional Psionic Energy Dice and add the numbers rolled to the total.
LEVEL 20: PEAK PSIONICS You have reached the pinnacle of understanding of your Psionic powers. You gain the following:
Mental Maximum Your MP can be calculated as your highest stat between Int, Wis, Cha + half of the second highest stat between the three rounded up. So a 20th level Psion with Int +2, Wis +3, Cha +5 could have an MP of +7.
Psionic Restoration If you roll initiative and have less than four Energy Dice you have four Energy Dice.
Mind Over Body As a bonus action you may expend up to 6 Hit Point Dice and recover an equal amount of expended Psionic Energy Dice. You may do this once and must complete a short or long rest before you can do this again.
Perfect Mode When you choose a Psionic Mode roll a D4. If you roll a 4 you gain the benefits of both Attack and Defense Modes simultaneously.
Additional Psionic Disciplines
Note that any UA Discipline that states Intelligence modifier should state MP modifier instead.
Brain Freeze When a creature enters your telepathy range for the first time on their turn, you can take a Reaction to roll one Psionic Energy Die and force the creature to make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target’s Speed is reduced to 0 feet and it subtracts the number rolled from the next roll to heal it before the end of its next turn. The die is expended only if the creature fails the saving throw.
Mental Focus When you cast a Spell you can expend one Energy Die and roll it. You use your MP spellcasting ability for this casting of the spell if you normally wouldn't and add 5 times the number rolled to your telepathy range until the end of your next turn.
Psionic Refresh Immediately after you cast a spell using your Special spell slot provided by Mental Magic, you may expend an Energy Die and roll it. You gain temporary hit points equal to the roll and may choose an expended Special spell slot and expend a number of Energy Die equal to twice its level to regain that Special spell slot.
Mind Fog When you deal Psychic damage to a creature you can expend an Energy Die and roll it. The creature gains the poison condition until the end of its next turn and subtracts the roll from its next ability check before the end of its next turn. A creature can use an action to roll an Intelligence save against your spellcasting DC to remove the poisoned condition.
Telekinetic Assault When you hit with an unarmed strike, you can expend one Energy Die and roll it. The target takes force damage equal to the roll.
Unnerving Reaction When you roll initiative with Disadvantage you can expend an Energy Die, roll it and add it to the result of your initiative roll.
Vector Control When you are hit by a ranged weapon attack roll you may take a Reaction to expend an Energy Die and roll it. You subtract the roll from the attack roll, possibly turning a hit into a miss.
Subclass changes
Note the additional spells offered by subclasses still come online at the normal full caster levels. Any feature that says use Intelligence Modifier instead would read use Mental Power modifier.
Metamorph
3rd level Organic Weapons add this sentence. Additionally you gain the Chill Touch option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip of your choice if you already have it. When you cast Chill touch you can add your MP modifier to one roll of the damage.
Psi Warper
3rd level Teleportation add this sentence. Additionally you gain the Thorn Whip option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip of your choice if you already have it. When you hit a target with the invisible whip you may teleport them up to 15ft and you may choose the distance and the direction of the teleport.
Psykinetic needs an additional level 3 feature.
LEVEL 3: COMBAT TELEKINESIS You gain the Mage Hand option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip option of your choice if you already have it. You can cast Mage Hand as a bonus action. If the hand is ever more than 30 ft away from you it doesn’t vanish, instead it teleports within 5 feet of you. When you make an Unarmed Strike with your invisible spectral hand from you can use 1d10 instead of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This damage increases to 2d10 at 5th, 3d10 at 11th, and 4d10 at 17th.
Telepath
3rd level Telepathic Hub range is 30 feet. Additionally you learn the Message Cantrip option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip option of your choice if you already have it. When you cast Message the range is doubled. You may cast Message as a bonus action if the target is within your telepathy range.
10th level Telepathic Bolstering is 60 feet and add this sentence. Additionally when you use Telepathic Connection to extend the range of your telepathy its range increases by 20 times the number rolled on the die.
as to the actual class, many people here feel like they took a very shallow look at what the class actually is and how its played. The spell part of the class is only one aspect of the class, the Energy features and mechanics have a lot of weight, and they are not actually similar to sorcerers in what they do and how they are incorporated into the class. there are only 4 uses of energy that are explcitly targeting spells. There are 11main class, and usually 3-4 subclass uses for energy that are not explicitly tied to spells. That is very different froma sorcerer.
This reads like, “every opinion that doesn’t align with mine is shallow.” And while it could be true (I don’t think so) I assure you this wouldn’t persuade anyone. I get that everyone believes their opinion is correct, my self included. I disagree with you about the weight of energy die and how different from a sorcerer or wizard a Psion plays in the current UA version. All the subclasses have features that are about casting a spell. The most common use a player will find for energy dice use is to alter a spell. Attack mode is all about altering spells and is just empowered spell for a minute. Telekinetic propel and telepathic connection come off as wasteful uses of ED unless you are in niche moments or playing a Psykinetic or Telepath. Oddly the UA Psion make me have to jump through a hoop to communicate telepathically. Aberrant Sorcerer and GOO Warlock seem to have it easier and I think soul knife does as well, but I haven’t played 2024 soul knife so that might not be true.
Most people posting on this forum want something different out of Psion. You aren’t wrong for liking the UA, but you are clearly the minority on this forum.
every opinion that doesnt align with mine is not shallow
however people claiming that psion is basically a wizard is a shallow opinion. The only thing wizardlike about psion is the fact that there is overlap in spell lists. which is true of warlock, sorcerer, artificer, and bard. It has a fundamentally different spellcasting, 55% of the amount of spell selection, and no overlap in what the non spell casting features do.
its also shallow to treat energy dice and psions other energy related features as a small underdeveloped side features. It is objectively one of the most developed set of class features in the game.channel divinity is 2-3 resources per rest with usually 3-4 uses, and 2-3 features developing it. rage is 4 resources with usually 3-4 uses, and 4-5 features developing it. Focus is up to 20 resources, but only 4 uses, and 4-5 features developing it. bardic inspiration, smites, wildshape, etc, all similar amount of develoment.
Energy dice has 15-20 unique uses, resources amounts up to 19 per day, complete subclass integration, is developed across 6 features, main class, and 3-4 subclass features. This group of features on its own absent anything else would objectively be considered class defining features. And its on the upper teir of how much it effects the classes gameplay, and how developed it is, especially among the full caster class. I would say only warlock probably is more defined by its features other than lvl 1 spellcasting. out of the full caster classes.
another way of evaluating; at level 1, you can use spell slots 2 times a day, and you can use energy dice 5 times a day. at 5, you can use 9 spell slots a day, and 10 energy dice per day. at level 9, 13 ED versus 14 spell slots. kevel 13, 16ED versus 17 spell slots., level 17 19ED versus 19 spell slots. Objectively, you will be using ED roughly as much as you will be using spell slots.
Now whether you like energy dice, or you would rather the class be even more different, or you dont want it tied to spell casting, those are not opinions which we can examine and compare,and make a determination as to its accuracy/shallowness, but speaking within the terms of 5e. psion is not wizardlike (relative to other classes) and energy dice/energy features are not a small facet of the class/gameplay design.
If someone can explain to me from some other perspective how either of those opinions is accurate in the context of 5e, i'll rescind my 'shallow' take, but as pointed out we can make objective comparisons in 5e that make those 2 opinions i mentioned shallow takes at best.
As far as how many people want what in this thread, i havent compiled it, but its largely irrelevant in terms of numbers of people, or statistically valuable sample. This doesnt mean the discussion has no value, you can evaluate ideas and reason, and even just anecdotal opinions, but no one here can claim a consensus opinion or anything in that realm.
When we say the UA Psion is the same as a Wizard it’s because in combat the number 1 option per turn is to cast a spell. They are also Int based full casters. All the ED features feel supplemental and not primary. Much like a Sorcerer. The Modes feel much like Innate Sorcery, a one minute power boost. While I’ll say modes are different enough by my standard, it’s still close enough to draw the parallel. Especially when attack mode literally gives you the power of a metamagic. The disciplines sit somewhere between metamagic and combat maneuvers. If the class is supposed to be focused on ED then it should focus on ED, right now it’s the UA version feels like the 2014 sorcerer, aka a weaker wizard. It’s not a shallow opinion. We don’t see ED in its current form as some incredible new power system. Also it’s not even the main system of power for the UA Psion. Spell slots are which is why we keep saying it feels like a wizard or sorcerer. Because we are having this debate you are making me look deeper into the Psion than I already have and I want to ask a question you already asked me about my half caster version. What about ED really adds to the psionic fantasy? From my perspective nothing. All the ED features are nice supplements, but it’s so heavily weighted on being a full caster and picking psionic spells that I could pick those same spells with a wizard and role play the same thing. Again we aren’t saying we don’t want a Psion class, we are saying do better. This does not hit the mark for us. You can try to defend it by saying we were being shallow, but I know I’ve spent days looking at and thinking about the UA Psion now. I hope it gets a second play test like the Hexblade warlock just did. I hope they look at using that half caster Warlock base for the Psion. I really feel like they could do something special with that base. Now I’m going to focus on the new UA stuff. There is a lot there to look at. Some of it looks great at a glance, but once I start comparing it to what’s already out or already play tested that’s when I start seeing the flaws.
if a psion is a half caster, then they will be inferior at psionics than a wizard, by a large margin.
what half caster means design wise, without some special unique design elements, is that you dont need to use spells to be good. with your base kit, and some useful spells, you can be as effective as anyone.
now, while nothing is innherrently wrong with a half caster.
a level 20 psion should be at least as good as a wizard at telekinesis, telepathy, manipluating time space, clairvoyance, altering fate.
now, doing that on a half caster chassis is going to be pretty rough, and probably involve recreating similar functionality to many spells through features somehow.
Which is why I suggested expanded the role of Psionic Disciplines to give more direct powers.
Yes, maybe this will end up a little bit like spells by another name without a bit of thought. But as you say "without some special unique design elements...". I'm suggesting expanding the use of Psionic Disciplines to be those special unique design elements.
A lot of people here are saying that the current iteration of the Psion is too close to a Wizard with this "Psionic Energy Die" tacked on. I was just trying to suggest an alternative that isn't so "Wizardy". Is a Psion class even necessary when you could play a Wizard or Sorcerer and just pick up "psychic-related" spells?
Do you have any alternative suggestions?
I don't necessarily like the spellcasting aspect of psionics, but unless you are going to make Psions extremely simple I don't know how you make them in 5e without spells. Again in 5e spells cover almost everything a psion needs to do. If you want them to write new book with a ton of features for Psion that all do what the spells already do, but aren't spells, I consider that a waste. I would never purchase that book, and I wouldn't allow it to be played at my tables. Powers and Spells are literally the same thing mechanically in the game. I can't see a reason to create a new Powers system, when it can be covered by spells. The only problem that I believe that needs to be addressed is that if you make Psions just fullcasters they are too similar to wizards and sorcerers in 5e. My mock ups were attempts to find something that is mechanically different while still using the assets that already exist in the game. I even attempted mock up that didnt use spells, but I found myself realizing every feature I tried to make was really just an altered spell or combined spells.
Also I don't like the UA version. If it were released I wouldn't buy that book, but I would allow someone to play it at my table if they wanted.
some of the feedback is, "too similar to wizard" but we have no numbers here, we cant say that this is the consensus view point or even a common view point. We cant say however say our on opinions, and reasoning and evaluate that.
This is a subforum, frequented by people who are more interested than most of the playerbase in novel designs, restructuring, consolidation, etc. in this same forum some people say sorcerer is too similar to wizard. People have argued that monk should just be fighter subclass during the UA, or also that monk should be a half caster. Just because a couple of people in conversation here doesnt mean we should change our design specifications.
I think the idea that psion is very similar to wizard is IMO not very accurate.
Wizard has a fundamentally different form of spell casting which dramatically alters how it plays, and its features reinforce this. They have an extremely expansive spell list, they canlearn as much spells as they have resources for, and can change their spell choices on a daily basis.
the gameplay and questions/choices a psion must deal with and what a wizard chooses or deals with is not very similar at all. Other than wizard having access to the spells psion has there isnt much similarity as far as casters go, other than both being int based.
Its a lot closer to a sorcerer, but still doesnt really play out the same since none of its features are going to alter its magic potential much (cant turn energy into spell slots) and a lot of the effects and use of ED are not directly related to spells. Neither sorcerer, nor wizard has any feature not related to spells, psion has many. And also sorcerer's spell list is noticeably more expansive, which means psion isnt depending as much on its spells, because they just cant.
psion in actual play, without ignoring subclass design which is way more of a package deal the some other classes, doesnt feel like playing these other classes. You tend to be much more focused on your ED than your spell slots.
If the feedback suggested, regardless that people want more diffrentiation.
I'd probably do something where casting spells above a certain level while in a "energetic" state would give extra benefits. Getting into an "energetic" state would involve using energy dice abilities.
another possibility is still using "spells" but stripping them of their "spell" status. You can create the effects of certain spells, if you expend some seperate resource. but this would likely touch too many rules and balance things.As well as probably ending up as new system to learn/ and balance against the spell slots system, which has a high overhead in design.
its highly likely people wont want to incorporate such a class in their games since it has the potential to mess with everything else they already designed.
i think in reality if you want to diffrentiate it from other casters, i dont think the spell structure is the way to go, It can be done, but that uses a lot of the psions design space on something which is kinda of going to be designed to be ultimately the same end result of the current system (or else it will cause lots of design/balance problems)
unless its somehow enhancing the flavor/fantasy/fun of the class at the same time as being different its definitely not worth it.
and i dont think its on the table for them. If the psion class concept requires that level of regiggering/balancing, and a whole book, they would probably just shelve the concept and move on.
this is probably supposed to be a few pages ina a 170 page book, an interesting addition, not a book in and of itself.
Gwar1
While a Psion has less spells to choose from as a UA Psion you very much cast as the same as a wizard. The per turn gameplay is not more focused on energy dice than spell selection. Choosing the correct spell to cast is far more important than how to alter it with ED or use your Psionic Power or Discipline features. Most people suggesting half caster are suggesting the focus be put on something other than just spellcasting. We understand that spellcasting needs to be part of the class because the things that make do psychic stuff in 5e are covered by spells already. There is no need for a lengthy psionic powers book that has a bunch of spells rewritten into powers. A new class should bring something new to the game or it doesn’t serve a purpose. If the core Psion class focuses on ED only as much as Psi warrior and Soul Knife that is a design problem in my eyes. If you remove the body horror fantasy from Abberant sorcerer you have just as good of a Psion as the UA subclass. Literally making a Wizard sub class that just got ED and psionic spellcasting would cover 90% of what the Psion class offers in regard to feeling like and ability to roleplay a person with psionic powers. What’s crazy is as a Wizard subclass it opens more possibilities because I am free to select more variety of spells.
Considering I have already concluded we view the game differently, I’m not saying any of this to persuade you. I’m saying it to simply voice the opposing opinion. This doesn’t negate your experience, just highlights your experience is not the only experience.
The psion as designed in the UA is not actually defined primarily by what spells it chooses to cast each round.
it doesnt have that many choices for spells. it doesnt even have to cast a leveled spell every round to be highly effective. A much larger part of the gameplay and design weight is on other things.
the main reason a psion is a full caster is so it has access to existing psionic mechanics (which are mostly spells), and so those spells arent weak. but it is not like sorcerer and wizard whose entire design and fanatsy is about manipluating spells, or having more access than everyone else.
these aspects you seem to mostly ignore are defining aspects of the class and its gameplay.
Its like you are looking at monk design and handwaving ki and focus, and saying its basically just a fighter
furthermore you seem to suggest (extending the analogy) that a fighter subclass could house the entire suite of monk/martial artist fanatsies that exist/people want
i think a lot of the fantasies that can be represented by psion were poorly represented by the existing choices, and i can think of even more that might be possible with a psion subclass, or expanding the base classes disciplines.
but as you said we disagree, this is mostly for others to evaluate our positions and take from it what they may.
as an illustration this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMMtmCEn5r4 clims they ve been trying to build this char concept for years and they find this new class/subclass to be the best fit offering unique gameplay and build options they wouldnt normally get from any other class combination
and that to me is what you are looking for when you make a new class
If the UA psion cast a cantrip it would be similar as effective a wizard casting a cantrip. I'm not sure the why you believe that there is any difference. I'm just not seeing it. We agree that the main reason the Psion has spells is that the majority of existing psionic mechanics are spells. What we disagree on is that they have to be a full caster to benefit from these spells. There are other options that would differentiate them from Wizards while giving them access to these mechanics. These options would allow for more focus on ED and Disciplines. I know you feel like there is plenty of focus on ED, but I just didn't get that.
My argument that this UA Psion class could be completely covered by a wizard subclass is not the same as a Monk as the Fighter subclass. Mainly because you couldn't capture the fantasy of most of the monks subclasses if you did that. If you give a Wizard subclass Psionic Power and psionic casting at 3rd level you can literally meet the fantasy of 3 of the subclasses offered in the UA with proper spell selection. You could actually cover more Psionic character types than what this UA offers because you would have a larger spell selection. I could play a Pyrokinetic, Electrokinetic, be a Clairvoyant, and etc. The point of this argument isn't that we should only get a Psionic Wizard subclass. It's that if we get a Psionic Wizard subclass it shouldn't make me feel like playing a Psion is pointless. Imagine a Complete Psionics book came out and it introduced ED to all the classes that don't have a subclass with it, and this UA psion. Do you believe that the Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses with ED wouldn't fulfill most Psionic fantasies better than this Psion? From my prospective they would. I don't think that is even fixed by making the Psion a half caster or differentiating it from the Wizard mechanically. I'm just saying if I'm getting a new class I would like it to feel different mechanically, because the fantasy of a Psion is 90% covered with Psionic Casting/Subtle Spell and the correct spell selections. The mechanics of being a Psionic should be something different. Not so different you have to go into a Powers system, but definitely not what was offered in the UA.
Now that I'm thinking about it they should have used that half caster UA Warlock build. It wasn't bad and I loved at first glance, but it didn't fully work as a Warlock for me. It must have gotten down voted into oblivion because it only made it one round of play test. If they would have used if for a Psion it would have been unique at least.
Yes, I can imagine it. As part of a new campaign sourcebook. I'm actually experimenting with the idea of "Universal Subclasses" that can be applied to each of the major classes in the game. Psionic would be a perfect candidate for that kind of thing. You could start out with a Psionic Wild Talent feat and then subclass as a Psionic.
They playtested that a few years back. But since the base classes don’t all get their subclass features at the same levels and Bards only get 3 subclass features it was shot down. I don’t know if it was because of the UA results or something internal. It’s just easier to design separate subclasses for each class that use similar features. I hope you find a work around that makes sense for your universal subclass. I like the idea of it.
A wizard is not a good base for a psion fantasy because a wizard has too much spell generality and focus on spell casting. A wizard is Doctor strange, even if doctor strange has/uses some psionic abilities, he is more defined by everything else he can do. You wnt make someone feel like professor X, if they have all the powers of Doc Strange.
What a class doesnt have is important as what it has in terms of class design.
When designing a class/subclass they dont have infinite budget. While on paper you can just add every/any feature, thats not great class design, and its not how classes/subclass are generally designed. if a wizard 'subclass' had the entirety of features of base psion, telepath, psiwarper, psikinetic, and metamorph, that would just be an overpowered and poorly designed class.
its not good class/subclass design to create new mechanics that dont serve a purpose in flavor/feel/gameplay that aligns with the class fantasy. Being different is not useful in and of itself in designing classes. In fact being different for sake of being different often hurts the class design because decisions are being made that aren't primarily focused on making the design better at what its supposed to do.
Yeah, but making everything the same is worse. Making the Psion like this gives us three Classes that use the same chassis. It is boring an uninspired.
I believe the Psion has two major issues: a lack of clear identity and a lack of unique mechanics. ( as a caster, in short we alreayd have way too many generic full casters, but we only have one special caster, the Warlock)
Some people might say, “Of course it’s unique, it has mind powers and psionics, no other class has that.” But to me, that’s just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The presence of psionics isn't enough. What truly matters is understanding where the Psion fits in the wider ecosystem of classes. What is its purpose? What is its core fantasy? What role does it fulfill on the team, and what archetype does it serve?
This confusion becomes more evident when we ask what space in the “class pie” the Psion is meant to fill. Right now, it seems to exist in a sort of identity vacuum. It has psionics, yes, but what is psionics, really? Most people just call it “mind magic,” but if you dig into the lore, psionics and ki are actually opposite sides of the same coin. Ki is body energy, monks train in physical and spiritual discipline to harness it. Psionics is mind energy, achieved through mental discipline and introspection. They are spiritual counterparts, rooted in mastery and inner power.
That’s where I think the Psion (or Mystic) should fit: as the magical counterpart to the Monk. One trains the body to transcend it; the other trains the mind. That distinction gives the Psion a clear identity and purpose. It doesn’t have to be a clone of the wizard or the sorcerer. It should stand beside them, but not in their shadow.
This also ties into the long-running debate: is psionics just another form of magic, or is it something fundamentally different? Personally, I think it’s fine for the Psion to be a caster, but not just another caster using the exact same spell slot system, and generic full caster tabble. If you want psionics to feel different, it needs to function differently.
That’s why I strongly believe the Psion should use a power point system, like "psionic points" as it has in earlier editions. It’s a classic mechanic that reflects how psionic energy is directed and spent, and it creates a clear mechanical divide between magic and psionics. Using Point in the place of spell slots would give the class a more unique nature and identity, also i feel that the game already has too many generic full casters maybe is time to create another special caster, by giving the Psion a similar spell table to the one the Warlock uses.
Another issue is that right now it thematic overlap with existing classes, particularly the wizard and sorcerer. If the Psion gains their powers through study, is it just a mind-wizard? If they’re born with it, are they just a mind-sorcerer? I think the Psion should follow the same conceptual path as the Monk, someone who wasn’t born with magic or trained in arcane theory, but someone who awakened their power through discipline and self-mastery.
In short, the monk represents the power of the body, and the psion represents the power of the mind. That’s a strong thematic identity. The more we lean into that, the more space the Psion has to grow into something truly distinct and memorable.
As a final suggestion, I’d love to see the Psion’s identity reinforced through the introduction of a new “school” or category of magic, something like psychokinesis. This could be a distinct set of spells accessible only to Psions or characters with psionic feats. These spells wouldn’t use spell slots but would operate on a point-based system, further reinforcing the idea that psionics are a separate, inner force rather than just another arcane tradition.
Done well, the Psion has the potential to be a truly iconic class. But it needs a firmer identity, mechanical distinction, and a clearer role within the class lineup to get there.
monk is not the body guy, they are the mind/body guy who isnt doing 'magic' the fantasy of monk is based on training.
the fantasy of psion is rarely learned, its most often wither achieved by birth/evolution or scientific experminentation. There are some cases of awakening but even those are more seen as miraculus and unexpected, rather than being the compliment of a monk, which is gnerally see as being avaialble to anyone who puts in the work.
jean grey (born) tetsuo shima (born+enhanced by science) nostradamus (born) Altered states (experminent) new types (born)
The sorcerer can't own the concept of innate ability, that makes little sense, as races exist with innate ability. In fact its probably a very under represented concept in dnd, in terms of classes, there are many learned magic/ability users there are few innate ones.
The difference between a psion and a sorcerer fantasy wise is mostly the sorcerer tends to represent something old, and is specifically tied to magic/spells. the psion tends to represent something new/evolved and is not specifically tied magic (usually not magic actually) psionics often alter physical phenomena directly.
monks and psionics are not in fantasy opposite ends of the spectrum, in fact they are often blended, like a jedi, or many other stories, where the psion's innate potential needs rigorous mind and body training to fully harness.
As far as combat roles and whatnot, that is not the cornerstone of dnd class design, sure builds can have roles, but the design of 5e is primarily about fulfilling a fantasy, and whatever mechanics/roles that make sense to be tied to that fantasy are tied to it. Its not a game where a group should need any one 'role' in order to play. You can have a group of theives, you can have a varied party, you can have a soldier themed group. the important thing is that the classes feel like the fantasy of what being that type of charachter would be like.
as to the actual class, many people here feel like they took a very shallow look at what the class actually is and how its played. The spell part of the class is only one aspect of the class, the Energy features and mechanics have a lot of weight, and they are not actually similar to sorcerers in what they do and how they are incorporated into the class. there are only 4 uses of energy that are explcitly targeting spells. There are 11main class, and usually 3-4 subclass uses for energy that are not explicitly tied to spells. That is very different froma sorcerer.
the psion as written has the power level of a full caster with spells, but its gameplay is actually evenly split between spells and energy. Id say its probably the least spell focused full caster in terms of gameplay, which is unique.
Lastly, im not really that opposed to it using some gimmick so its 'spell' use seems different, but almost all of the ideas i have seen to do so dont look like great designs that are adding more to the fantasy/gameplay that they take away.
one common idea is an energy pool that powers both psionic features and spells,(or interoptability between the two resources) the flaw in that is that using spells will then come at the cost of being less psionic. And since spells generally have a dominating power structure, it becomes hard for any feature to compete with spells at a certain level given the choice. it also creates a scalability issue.
the other problem is that a lot of design space and effort is usually put into making the energy system different, but that doesnt really usually fit more into a psion fantasy. there is nothing about having say 100 energy to split up into spells that feels more like a psion fantasy, or enhances the gameplay. its pretty arbitrary.
thats not to say their isnt some other resource system that ties into the fanatsy in an interesting way that could exist, but i havent seen it suggested yet.
and lastly alot of these reworks would require a lot more complexity redesign and balance than most players are willing to engage with, more than most DMs are willing to engage with on top of their other reqs, and more than the designers are willing to introduce into the 5e ecosystem.
i see a bunch of rules/mechanics guys who want to have new toys in this new class, but they are ignoring that the class needs to work within the specifications of 5e. Its not really an opportunity for radical change/design because 5e is made to be relatively streamlined (compared to dnd hustorically) easy to get into new classes, and its at this point the tried and true thing, not the innovative new and challenging(design wise) thing.
So for those who love coming up with design, it would need to be no more complex than the current spell system, or less complex if it still involves the spell system, explainable with roughly the same space as other classes, it would need to make the gameplay feel more 'psiony' it would need to be balanced versus current systems/classes and preferably fairly easy to develop new content/tweaks/remixes/subclasses for.
which might seem simple but if you can do all that, its basically a genius level design. I think coming up with testing and balancing the current caster system probably took years (and i dont even really like the system)
Mechanically, you'd need to have a customized version of a "Universal" subclass anyway because the the D&D Beyond tool set doesn't support a subclass that isn't tied to a particular class.
There would be Barbarian/Psionic, Bard/Psionic, etc. I don't expect them to retool to accommodate the idea.
The ideas expressed by SilverSage178 and BlueBard_bluegeek are exactly what I am looking for when it comes to the identity and promise of what a psion could be. I honestly was not even interested in this class until I read what these posters came up with. I share their opinion that don’t want the Psion to feel like another caster, and I think there is value in re-centering the psion back towards the monk, because while Fighters and monks can do similar things, they do so in different ways and with distinct flavor. This is how the psion should compare and contrast with the other Vancian casters. I am no game designer by any means, but man, I hope they can nail this concept and come up with a refreshing new class.
Gwar1
This reads like, “every opinion that doesn’t align with mine is shallow.” And while it could be true (I don’t think so) I assure you this wouldn’t persuade anyone. I get that everyone believes their opinion is correct, my self included. I disagree with you about the weight of energy die and how different from a sorcerer or wizard a Psion plays in the current UA version. All the subclasses have features that are about casting a spell. The most common use a player will find for energy dice use is to alter a spell. Attack mode is all about altering spells and is just empowered spell for a minute. Telekinetic propel and telepathic connection come off as wasteful uses of ED unless you are in niche moments or playing a Psykinetic or Telepath.
Oddly the UA Psion make me have to jump through a hoop to communicate telepathically. Aberrant Sorcerer and GOO Warlock seem to have it easier and I think soul knife does as well, but I haven’t played 2024 soul knife so that might not be true.
Most people posting on this forum want something different out of Psion. You aren’t wrong for liking the UA, but you are clearly the minority on this forum.
So this is basically the UA half caster Warlock, but instead of invocations that could be used as spells this just gives a spell slot. I also massively increased the number of ED, and spitballed some new disciplines to add to the list. To me this is different enough to not feel like a wizard, but not so different than the rest of the game that it feels, not 5e. Most importantly I’m not a numbers guy, or a real designer by any means. All of this is just me sharing ideas in hopes to inspire other’s ideas. This is not balanced.
Psion
Primary Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma
Hit Die D8
Saving Throws Int and Wis
Skills choose 2 Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Medicine, Perception, Persuasion
Weapons Simple
Armor Light
LEVEL 1: MENTAL POWER Your mental power comes from the best qualities of your mind. You gain a Mental Power (MP) modifier equal to the highest stat between your Int, Wis, or Cha modifier. Additionally you learn one of the following Cantrips, it uses your MP modifier for its spellcasting ability, it requires no components when you cast it and has additional benefits. Learning a Cantrip on this list from some other feature does not grant these additional benefits unless the feature states you learn the Mental Power option.
LEVEL 1: PSIONIC POWER You harbor a wellspring of psionic energy within yourself. This energy is represented by your Psionic Energy Dice. Your Psion level determines the die size and number of Psionic Energy Dice you have, as shown in the Energy Die and Number of Dice columns of the Psion Features table. Your Psionic Energy Dice are used to enhance or fuel certain Psion features. You start with two such features: Telekinetic Propel and Telepathic Connection, each of which is detailed below. Some of your powers expend the Psionic Energy Dice, as specified in a power’s description, and you can’t use a power if it requires you to use a die when all your Psionic Energy Dice are expended. You regain a number of expended Psionic Energy Dice equal to half your Proficiency Bonus rounded up when you finish a Short Rest, and you regain all of them when you finish a Long Rest. Some features that use Psionic Energy Dice require your target to make a saving throw. The save DC equals the spell save DC from this class’s Spellcasting feature.
Telekinetic Propel. As a Bonus Action, choose one Large or smaller creature other than you that you can see within 30 feet of yourself, and then roll one Psionic Energy Die. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed or pulled (your choice) up to a number of feet straight away from yourself equal to 5 times the number rolled. The die is expended only if the target fails the saving throw.
Telepathic Connection. You have telepathy with a range of 10 feet. As a Bonus Action, you can expend one Psionic Energy Die and roll it. For a number of minutes equal to your Psion level, the range of your telepathy increases by a number of feet equal to 10 times the number rolled.
LEVEL 1: SPELLCASTING You have learned how to channel magical energy using the power of your mind. See the Player’s Handbook for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Psion spells, which appear in the Psion spell list later in the class’s description. Cantrips. You know two Psion cantrips of your choice. Minor Illusion and Telekinetic Fling are recommended. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one of your cantrips from this feature with another Psion cantrip of your choice. When you reach Psion levels 10 and 14, you learn another Psion cantrip of your choice, as shown in the Cantrips column of the Psion Features table. Spell Slots. The Psion Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your level 1+ spells. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a Long Rest. Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list with this feature. To start, choose two level 1 Psion spells. Dissonant Whispers, and Mage Armor are recommended. The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Psion levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Psion Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional Psion spells until the number of spells on your list matches the number in the table. The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots. For example, if you’re a level 3 Psion, your list of prepared spells can include four Psion spells of level 1. If another Psion feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Psion spells for you.
Changing Your Prepared Spells. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one spell on your list with another Psion spell of an eligible level.
Spellcasting Ability. Mental Power is your spellcasting ability for your Psion spells.
Psionic Spellcasting. When you cast a Psion spell, that spell doesn’t require a Verbal or Material component, even if the spell includes “V” or “M” in its “Components” entry, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell.
LEVEL 2: MENTAL MAGIC 1 You gain a Special level 1 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses your MP as its spellcasting ability and uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. Additionally as Magic Action you can expend a spellslot to do a Mental Assault. You choose a target within your telepathy range and force them to make an Int saving throw. They take 1d8+1d8 per spell slot level psychic damage on a failure.
LEVEL 2: PSIONIC DISCIPLINE You learn further psionic techniques that are fueled by your Psionic Energy Dice. You gain three disciplines of your choice, such as Expanded Awareness and Id Insinuation. Disciplines are described in the “Psionic Discipline Options” section later in this class’s description. You can use only one Discipline each turn and only once per turn unless otherwise noted in one of those options. Whenever you gain a Psion level, you can replace one of your Psionic Discipline options with one you don’t know. You gain three more options at Psion level 10 and three more at Psion level 17.
LEVEL 3: MENTAL MAGIC 2 You gain a Special level 2 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 2nd level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally you can expend a number of Psionic Energy Dice instead of a spell slot to use Mental Assault. You must expend a number of Energy Dice equal to the spell slot level. You may only expend a maximum number of Energy Dice equal to your highest Mental Magic number.
LEVEL 5: MENTAL MAGIC 3 You gain a Special level 3 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 3rd level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally when you perform a Mental Assault you add your MP modifier to one damage roll.
LEVEL 5: PSIONIC MODE You have honed your psionic powers to act as both a shield and a weapon in battle. As a Bonus Action, you can expend choose one of the following modes, granting you certain benefits for 1 minute or until you use this feature again:
Attack Mode. Damage from your weapon attacks, Psion spells, and Psion features ignores Resistance to Psychic damage. In addition, when you roll damage for a spell, you can expend one Psionic Energy Die to reroll a number of damage dice up to your MP modifier (minimum of one), and you must use the new rolls.
Defense Mode. You have Resistance to Psychic damage. In addition, when you fail an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma saving throw, you can take a Reaction to expend one Psionic Energy Die; roll the Psionic Energy Die and add the number rolled to the saving throw, potentially turning a failure into a success.
You can use this feature once and regain the ability to use it this way when you complete a long rest.You may also expend an Energy Die (no action needed) to restore a use of this feature.
LEVEL 7: MENTAL MAGIC 4 You gain a Special level 4 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 4th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally after you roll one or more Psionic Energy Dice, you can expend one of your Hit Point Dice and treat any roll of 1, 2, or 3 on those Psionic Energy Dice as a 4.
LEVEL 9: MENTAL MAGIC 5 You gain a Special level 5 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses your MP as its spellcasting ability and uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 5th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 9: WILD TALENT FEAT You gain a Wild Talent Feat of your choice even if you have already taken one. This Feat counts as a general feat for you.
LEVEL 11: MENTAL MAGIC 6 You gain a Special level 6 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 6th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class. Additionally when a target succeeds on a saving throw when you perform Mental Assault they take half damage.
LEVEL 13: MENTAL MAGIC 7 You gain a Special level 7 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 7th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 15: MENTAL MAGIC 8 You gain a Special level 8 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 8th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 17: MENTAL MAGIC 9 You gain a Special level 9 spell slot. Any spell cast from this slot uses no components, except Material components that are consumed by the spell or have a cost specified in the spell. You also prepare one 9th level Psion spell of your choice. It is always prepared for you. You can change this spell when you gain a level in this class.
LEVEL 18: ENKINDLED LIFEFORCE Once per turn, when you expend one Psionic Energy Die and roll it for a Psion feature or Psionic Discipline, you can expend two of your Hit Point Dice to roll two additional Psionic Energy Dice and add the numbers rolled to the total.
LEVEL 20: PEAK PSIONICS You have reached the pinnacle of understanding of your Psionic powers. You gain the following:
Mental Maximum Your MP can be calculated as your highest stat between Int, Wis, Cha + half of the second highest stat between the three rounded up. So a 20th level Psion with Int +2, Wis +3, Cha +5 could have an MP of +7.
Psionic Restoration If you roll initiative and have less than four Energy Dice you have four Energy Dice.
Mind Over Body As a bonus action you may expend up to 6 Hit Point Dice and recover an equal amount of expended Psionic Energy Dice. You may do this once and must complete a short or long rest before you can do this again.
Perfect Mode When you choose a Psionic Mode roll a D4. If you roll a 4 you gain the benefits of both Attack and Defense Modes simultaneously.
Additional Psionic Disciplines
Note that any UA Discipline that states Intelligence modifier should state MP modifier instead.
Brain Freeze When a creature enters your telepathy range for the first time on their turn, you can take a Reaction to roll one Psionic Energy Die and force the creature to make an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, the target’s Speed is reduced to 0 feet and it subtracts the number rolled from the next roll to heal it before the end of its next turn. The die is expended only if the creature fails the saving throw.
Mental Focus When you cast a Spell you can expend one Energy Die and roll it. You use your MP spellcasting ability for this casting of the spell if you normally wouldn't and add 5 times the number rolled to your telepathy range until the end of your next turn.
Psionic Refresh Immediately after you cast a spell using your Special spell slot provided by Mental Magic, you may expend an Energy Die and roll it. You gain temporary hit points equal to the roll and may choose an expended Special spell slot and expend a number of Energy Die equal to twice its level to regain that Special spell slot.
Mind Fog When you deal Psychic damage to a creature you can expend an Energy Die and roll it. The creature gains the poison condition until the end of its next turn and subtracts the roll from its next ability check before the end of its next turn. A creature can use an action to roll an Intelligence save against your spellcasting DC to remove the poisoned condition.
Telekinetic Assault When you hit with an unarmed strike, you can expend one Energy Die and roll it. The target takes force damage equal to the roll.
Unnerving Reaction When you roll initiative with Disadvantage you can expend an Energy Die, roll it and add it to the result of your initiative roll.
Vector Control When you are hit by a ranged weapon attack roll you may take a Reaction to expend an Energy Die and roll it. You subtract the roll from the attack roll, possibly turning a hit into a miss.
Subclass changes
Note the additional spells offered by subclasses still come online at the normal full caster levels. Any feature that says use Intelligence Modifier instead would read use Mental Power modifier.
Metamorph
3rd level Organic Weapons add this sentence. Additionally you gain the Chill Touch option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip of your choice if you already have it. When you cast Chill touch you can add your MP modifier to one roll of the damage.
Psi Warper
3rd level Teleportation add this sentence. Additionally you gain the Thorn Whip option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip of your choice if you already have it. When you hit a target with the invisible whip you may teleport them up to 15ft and you may choose the distance and the direction of the teleport.
Psykinetic needs an additional level 3 feature.
LEVEL 3: COMBAT TELEKINESIS You gain the Mage Hand option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip option of your choice if you already have it. You can cast Mage Hand as a bonus action. If the hand is ever more than 30 ft away from you it doesn’t vanish, instead it teleports within 5 feet of you. When you make an Unarmed Strike with your invisible spectral hand from you can use 1d10 instead of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This damage increases to 2d10 at 5th, 3d10 at 11th, and 4d10 at 17th.
Telepath
3rd level Telepathic Hub range is 30 feet. Additionally you learn the Message Cantrip option from Mental Power or learn another Mental Power Cantrip option of your choice if you already have it. When you cast Message the range is doubled. You may cast Message as a bonus action if the target is within your telepathy range.
10th level Telepathic Bolstering is 60 feet and add this sentence. Additionally when you use Telepathic Connection to extend the range of your telepathy its range increases by 20 times the number rolled on the die.
Psion
Spell
Level
Class Features
Energy Die
Number of Dice
Cantrips
Spells Prepared
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
1st
Mental Power, Psionic Power, Spellcasting
D6
6
2
2
2
-
-
-
-
2nd
Mental Magic 1, Psionic Discipline
D6
6
2
3
2
-
-
-
-
3rd
Psion Subclass, Mental Magic 2
D6
6
2
4
3
-
-
-
-
4th
ASI
D6
6
3
5
3
-
-
-
-
5th
Mental Magic 3, Psionic Mode
D8
9
3
6
4
2
-
-
-
6th
Subclass Feature
D8
9
3
7
4
2
-
-
-
7th
Mental Magic 4
D8
9
3
8
4
3
-
-
-
8th
ASI
D8
9
3
9
4
3
-
-
-
9th
Mental Magic 5, Wild Talent Feat
D8
12
3
10
4
3
2
-
-
10th
Subclass Feature
D8
12
4
10
4
3
2
-
-
11th
Mental Magic 6
D10
12
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
12th
ASI
D10
12
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
13th
Mental Magic 7
D10
15
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
14th
Subclass Feature
D10
15
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
15th
Mental Magic 8
D10
15
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
16th
ASI
D10
15
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
17th
Mental Magic 9
D12
18
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
18th
Enkindled Lifeforce
D12
18
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
19th
Epic Boon
D12
18
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
20th
Peak Psionics
D12
20
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
every opinion that doesnt align with mine is not shallow
however people claiming that psion is basically a wizard is a shallow opinion. The only thing wizardlike about psion is the fact that there is overlap in spell lists. which is true of warlock, sorcerer, artificer, and bard. It has a fundamentally different spellcasting, 55% of the amount of spell selection, and no overlap in what the non spell casting features do.
its also shallow to treat energy dice and psions other energy related features as a small underdeveloped side features. It is objectively one of the most developed set of class features in the game.channel divinity is 2-3 resources per rest with usually 3-4 uses, and 2-3 features developing it. rage is 4 resources with usually 3-4 uses, and 4-5 features developing it. Focus is up to 20 resources, but only 4 uses, and 4-5 features developing it. bardic inspiration, smites, wildshape, etc, all similar amount of develoment.
Energy dice has 15-20 unique uses, resources amounts up to 19 per day, complete subclass integration, is developed across 6 features, main class, and 3-4 subclass features. This group of features on its own absent anything else would objectively be considered class defining features. And its on the upper teir of how much it effects the classes gameplay, and how developed it is, especially among the full caster class. I would say only warlock probably is more defined by its features other than lvl 1 spellcasting. out of the full caster classes.
another way of evaluating; at level 1, you can use spell slots 2 times a day, and you can use energy dice 5 times a day. at 5, you can use 9 spell slots a day, and 10 energy dice per day. at level 9, 13 ED versus 14 spell slots. kevel 13, 16ED versus 17 spell slots., level 17 19ED versus 19 spell slots. Objectively, you will be using ED roughly as much as you will be using spell slots.
Now whether you like energy dice, or you would rather the class be even more different, or you dont want it tied to spell casting, those are not opinions which we can examine and compare,and make a determination as to its accuracy/shallowness, but speaking within the terms of 5e. psion is not wizardlike (relative to other classes) and energy dice/energy features are not a small facet of the class/gameplay design.
If someone can explain to me from some other perspective how either of those opinions is accurate in the context of 5e, i'll rescind my 'shallow' take, but as pointed out we can make objective comparisons in 5e that make those 2 opinions i mentioned shallow takes at best.
As far as how many people want what in this thread, i havent compiled it, but its largely irrelevant in terms of numbers of people, or statistically valuable sample. This doesnt mean the discussion has no value, you can evaluate ideas and reason, and even just anecdotal opinions, but no one here can claim a consensus opinion or anything in that realm.
Gwar1
When we say the UA Psion is the same as a Wizard it’s because in combat the number 1 option per turn is to cast a spell. They are also Int based full casters. All the ED features feel supplemental and not primary. Much like a Sorcerer. The Modes feel much like Innate Sorcery, a one minute power boost. While I’ll say modes are different enough by my standard, it’s still close enough to draw the parallel. Especially when attack mode literally gives you the power of a metamagic. The disciplines sit somewhere between metamagic and combat maneuvers. If the class is supposed to be focused on ED then it should focus on ED, right now it’s the UA version feels like the 2014 sorcerer, aka a weaker wizard. It’s not a shallow opinion. We don’t see ED in its current form as some incredible new power system. Also it’s not even the main system of power for the UA Psion. Spell slots are which is why we keep saying it feels like a wizard or sorcerer. Because we are having this debate you are making me look deeper into the Psion than I already have and I want to ask a question you already asked me about my half caster version. What about ED really adds to the psionic fantasy? From my perspective nothing. All the ED features are nice supplements, but it’s so heavily weighted on being a full caster and picking psionic spells that I could pick those same spells with a wizard and role play the same thing. Again we aren’t saying we don’t want a Psion class, we are saying do better. This does not hit the mark for us. You can try to defend it by saying we were being shallow, but I know I’ve spent days looking at and thinking about the UA Psion now. I hope it gets a second play test like the Hexblade warlock just did. I hope they look at using that half caster Warlock base for the Psion. I really feel like they could do something special with that base. Now I’m going to focus on the new UA stuff. There is a lot there to look at. Some of it looks great at a glance, but once I start comparing it to what’s already out or already play tested that’s when I start seeing the flaws.