i was comparing melee to melee but it doesnt really matter, a light xbow is also a 2 handed weapon that does d8. Light xbow also has the loading property, and thus cant be used 2 times per round without a feature, or some sort of weapon swap.. the only one handed xbow is a martial weapon. But even ignoring loading, its still a two handed weapon, so it makes sense the pld would be using a two handed weapon
This is false. The loading property only limits you to firing one piece of ammunition per action, bonus action, or reaction. It does not limit you to one attack per round with a loading weapon. Your math is still wrong and doesn't account for a paladin missing all of its attacks on a turn when you're factoring in your divine smite damage. Half of your arguments so far is that the paladin is better because it can survive melee and deals more damage. This was never a "Psion is better than Paladin argument" though that is what you decided to argue against. I said that the paladin did more damage, but the Psion was close and actually said the Psion was squishy in post 26. You still engage in fallacious arguments and completely ignore or misrepresent my claims while trying to debunk them. Once again you are comparing optimized and heavy resource intensive combat plans to non-optimized low resource intensive combat plans. Also fabricating positions for someone who disagrees with you, like you did in post 30, is not a good faith argument.
It really isn't worth arguing with you since you seem to take pushback personally and are missing the point of my analysis. The Psion in UA is the best full caster base class at control while also contributing to damage. The damage they can contribute while continuing to control the battlefield is better than any other full caster other than a sorcerer. If they try to go for a single target damage focused build it is significantly easier because the base class and subclasses have better tools for that than other classes. The only other base class that can compete in this role is the sorcerer, but they don't have the sorcery points to do it as long as the Psion in every tier of play except maybe the end of tier 3 and tier 4 due to the fact that they have enough spell slots to convert into sorcery points. I talk about this in post 26, and post 32.
i was comparing melee to melee but it doesnt really matter, a light xbow is also a 2 handed weapon that does d8. Light xbow also has the loading property, and thus cant be used 2 times per round without a feature, or some sort of weapon swap.. the only one handed xbow is a martial weapon. But even ignoring loading, its still a two handed weapon, so it makes sense the pld would be using a two handed weapon
This is false. The loading property only limits you to firing one piece of ammunition per action, bonus action, or reaction. It does not limit you to one attack per round with a loading weapon. Your math is still wrong and doesn't account for a paladin missing all of its attacks on a turn when you're factoring in your divine smite damage. Half of your arguments so far is that the paladin is better because it can survive melee and deals more damage. This was never a "Psion is better than Paladin argument" though that is what you decided to argue against. I said that the paladin did more damage, but the Psion was close and actually said the Psion was squishy in post 26. You still engage in fallacious arguments and completely ignore or misrepresent my claims while trying to debunk them. Once again you are comparing optimized and heavy resource intensive combat plans to non-optimized low resource intensive combat plans. Also fabricating positions for someone who disagrees with you, like you did in post 30, is not a good faith argument.
It really isn't worth arguing with you since you seem to take pushback personally and are missing the point of my analysis. The Psion in UA is the best full caster base class at control while also contributing to damage. The damage they can contribute while continuing to control the battlefield is better than any other full caster other than a sorcerer. If they try to go for a single target damage focused build it is significantly easier because the base class and subclasses have better tools for that than other classes. The only other base class that can compete in this role is the sorcerer, but they don't have the sorcery points to do it as long as the Psion in every tier of play except maybe the end of tier 3 and tier 4 due to the fact that they have enough spell slots to convert into sorcery points. I talk about this in post 26, and post 32.
loading, as i said in that sentence you quoted, is irrelvant the point is if the psion is using two hands, the paladin can use two hands. ie, they can do 2d6 either via dual wielding or greatsword. Light xbow is a two handed weapon.
my math doesnt need to account for a paladin missing all their attacks in a round, because am looking at the damage throughout the day,. if a paladin can land 10 attacks in the day, they will do 10 smites worth of damage. dual wielding paladin attempts at least 48 attacks in 4 combat day, a two weapon fighting paladin attemps at least 32. the chance of them missing enough attacks to be unable to use their smites is not really very likely until they are starting to be able to smite every single round, which is at like 20. but even so its not actually much of a factor, because its the weakest smites they would be missing out on, and that could easily be solved by casting divine favor instead of smiting with 2d8s.
and even if you wanted to account for it, with a hit rate of .6, the chance of you missing both attacks is 14% (take the chance of missing twice .4*.4 then 1- that chance is your chance of hitting at least once)
which still doesnt come close to making up the difference, and it would be less accurate than what i propose, as those smites would be used in later rounds.
using every single one of your energy dice is not a low resource plan, thats a heavy resource plan. it also consumes your action, and your bonus action. this means while using that strategy, you cant do anything else. energy dice for the psion, as i said earlier has a lot of other uses, like defense, landing debuffs, defending teamates. so using all of them for the purpose of damage would be considered a high resource game plan.
the reason i was talking about squishyness, was because i was trying to think what conceivable reason a paladin wouldnt have a complimentary fighting style, which is only if they choose a defensive one. The point was paladins who are doing less damage than psions are choosing defensive builds, if the psion chooses a defensive build, it is likely to spend its energy dice on different things, like psionic backlash, defense mode saves, landing debuffs.
but i forgoed that whole argument, because even according to the situation you want to evaluate, the psion isnt competing.
this is not personal, im not trying to disprove you for kicks, we are trying to understand and give feedback on the psion class, and are looking at its strengths and weaknesses, and how they compare with other classes, my point is not that the psion is a weak class, my point is the psion is not in the paladin class of martial capability, or even particularly close to it. People giving feedback and reading this thread, should not think, that psion, with swift precognition is roughly on par with a paladin's martial prowess and give feedback with that in mind, because it is not accurate.
psion is probably better than many martials, because its a full caster and can do things they just cant do, however, with the current iteration, its not offensively competitive with a pld at single target damage, and its not competitive with offensive casters at aoe damage/single target damage.
i like swift precognition, (and the psiwarper BA cantrip) because i prefer being martial focused, and having BA options, but as far as my testing shows, its not really offensively a huge deal compared to dedicated martials, because they get a lot of built in support for it, which is ok, its a full caster, its just doing martial stuff because thats the fantasy the player is going for, not for peak efficiency.
Im testing a party of psions currently, and so far, the more cast focused subclasses and themes are making the biggest contributions, and i doubt that will change.
I agree the psion is great at control, but its not great at damage, using energy dice for damage makes you less good at control, in which case the bard surpasses you at control. (the big difference is using energy dice to make spells more effective, the spell list is extremely similar, except at 10 they get cleric and wizards list as well)
druid has spells like conjure animals, woodland beings, and conjure minor elemental,
wizard has basically every arcane spell, and lots of slots, and the ability to change spells each day to suit the situation, its going to beat the psion at damage.
it probably has more control than a cleric. it probably has more damage than bard.
i think the big thing its got going for it is a fun theme, and a lot of options and a bit of customizability. I think it could use more unique spells, that fit the themes (metamorph is the most lacking in this regard, though psikinetist could use some high end stuff) and bit more energy dice management, or less abilities that consume energy dice.
I think Psion is actually fairly balanced. Juts maybe throw in a bit more hit points for Metamorph, because that seems like it's supposed to be a skirmisher.
I think 2024 Archfey Warlock multiclasses are going to be common with Psi Warper subclass-- it seems like it'd be fun, although a bit MAD.
I dunno. A bit underwhelming, but the Psionic dice really buff the class. Not sure what to think,but it's definitely one of the better UA psionic subclasses proposed.
It would be nice if this class was more different from the Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard.
I would go stronger and offer Light armor either at the base class or at the subclass level. For Metamorph I would add +1 or 2/level HP to help them stay in the fight. Or, give them a Rage like option.
I would go stronger with more Psionic Discipline slots and variety of options. This could replace some of the spells, which I would go lighter. Somewhat of an inverse Sorcerer/Warlock.
I also agree with many of the comments; there needs to be something for the base class between levels 7 and 19.
It would be nice if this class was more different from the Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard.
I would go stronger and offer Light armor either at the base class or at the subclass level. For Metamorph I would add +1 or 2/level HP to help them stay in the fight. Or, give them a Rage like option.
I would go stronger with more Psionic Discipline slots and variety of options. This could replace some of the spells, which I would go lighter. Somewhat of an inverse Sorcerer/Warlock.
I also agree with many of the comments; there needs to be something for the base class between levels 7 and 19.
i think they dont have enough psionic disciplines at high levels, you eventually get 6 out of a pool of 11. They could add new disciplines at higher levels that fit within some of the sub themes, boost physical, boost magic, boost mental. As is, eventually everyone has mostly the same diciplines, even if they are going for different themes
Do we need a Psion class or could we just have the subclasses for each class
Barbarian- Path of the Psy Rager- gets energy dice, psychic resistance, can expend ED to add Str to Int, Wis, Cha saves while raging. Use telekinetic propel while raging
Bard- College of Thought- basically the UA telepath class thrown on the Bard
Cleric- Mind Domain- pionic spells,
Druid- Circle of the Metamorph- literally just make it a Druid.
Fighter- Psy Knight- already done
Monk- Warrior of Astral Self- needs to be redone
Paladin- Oath of the Free Mind- Aura of Mind’s Reach can teleport creatures within aura to another point in the aura, can make melee attack against any target within the aura if they are beyond melee range damage is psychic.
Ranger- Nightmare Trapper- Energy dice, hunters mark can deal all psychic damage,
Rogue- Soul Knife- already done
Sorcerer- Aberent Mind- already don
Warlock- Great Old One- already done
Wizard- Psykineticist- just make it a wizard subclass
Artificer- Void Crafter- can create some material components with its mind.
I'm currently playtesting, and its actually pretty fun, and i like that it has a class plus subclass interactions.
thing with a sub class, is its always primarily the main class, and the subclass has to work within
i actually like the energy dice and psionic class features more than any other caster's base kit, except warlock, if you consider them a full caster.
essentially, a class lets you dedicate more design space and features to one concept, while subclasses you can dedicate 4 or 5 features or so, but the base class dominates a lot of who the charachter is/does.
they can, and probably will make more 'psionic' subclasses for main classes.
One last shot at what a Psion could look like. This time as a half caster, but with features that make it practically a full caster. I’m bored. This is what I do when I’m bored. Lol Psion
D8 Hit Point Die, All other proficiencies, saves, and training the same
Psion
Spell
Slot
Per
Spell
LvL
Level
Class Features
Energy Die
Number of Dice
Cantrips
Spells Prepared
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
1st
Spellcasting, Psionic Power
D6
4
2
2
2
-
-
-
-
2nd
Psionic Discipline, Psionic Modes
D6
4
2
3
2
-
-
-
-
3rd
Psion Subclass
D6
4
2
4
3
-
-
-
-
4th
ASI
D6
4
3
5
3
-
-
-
-
5th
Psionic Gamble
D8
6
3
6
4
2
-
-
-
6th
Subclass Feature
D8
6
3
7
4
2
-
-
-
7th
Psionic Surge
D8
6
3
8
4
3
-
-
-
8th
ASI
D8
6
3
9
4
3
-
-
-
9th
Mental Reserves
D8
8
3
10
4
3
2
-
-
10th
Subclass Feature,Psionic Discipline
D8
8
4
10
4
3
2
-
-
11th
Awaken Power 6th level Spell
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
12th
ASI
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
13th
AP 7th level Spell
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
14th
Subclass Feature
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
15th
AP 8th level Spell
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
16th
ASI
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
17th
AP 9th level Spell, Psionic Discipline
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
18th
Enkindled Lifeforce
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
19th
Epic Boon
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
20th
Psionic Restoration
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
1st Spellcasting- Went half caster to make it different from Wizard but this is a full caster in reality through its features. No Components needed for Psion Spells except spells that have materials consumed by the spell or with a specified cost.
1st Psionic Power- mostly the same. Telekinetic Propel change “creature” to read “target” allowing this to be used on objects that are large or smaller as well. This helps offset the fact that I dropped subtle telekinesis. Telepathic Connection change it to 10ft for the base range and it last ten minutes, the roll only changes the distance.
2nd Psionic Discipline- no changes
2nd Psionic Modes- can be used unlimited times per day. The cost is just action economy. This will change Psionic Surge
5th Psionic Gamble- All new feature that makes you practically a full caster and allows you the most versatile spell selection. “As a magic action choose a spell from the Psion spell list that is no higher than half your Psion level rounded up with a cast time of one action. You expend a number of Energy Dice equal to the Spells level +1. After you have cast the spell roll a d6. If the roll is equal or higher than the number of energy dice you expended you immediately regain a number of Energy dice equal to the spells level.” Note if you use this on a spell of 6th level or higher there is no point rolling the d6 since you cant roll a 7 higher. This does mean by sacrificing most of its ED this Psion could cast 2 9th level spells in a day.
7th Psionic Surge- Allows you to exchange an Energy die for a hit die instead of a use of Modes since this version doesnt have limited uses of modes.
9th Mental Reserves- If you have no Energy Die at the start of your turn you gain a Reserve Energy Die. A It can be used for any Psion feature that you roll an Energy Die, but not for features that you only expend the die without rolling it. You may only ever have 1 Reserve Energy Die. If you gain an Energy Die while you already have a Reserve Energy, the Reserve Energy Die you already have is loss.
11th Awakened Power 6th level Spell- You prepare one 6th level spell from the psion spell list. You can cast it once without expending a spell slot. It requires no components unless they are consumed by the spell or has a cost specified in the spell. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.
13th Awakened Power 7th level spell
15th Awakened Power 8th level spell
17th Awakened Power 9th level spell
18th Enkindled Lifeforce- no changes except level
20th Psionic Restoration- If you roll initiative and have less than Energy Dice you have 4 Energy Dice. Additionally when you use Power Surge to regain an Energy Die you regain 2 instead.
did you find the psion to be overpowered? because mostly this just lowers their casting power without gaining much.
generally half casters are designed to function without spell slots, but your will quickly struggle. they will only have access to weaker spells, and not many baseline uses without
The gambling for slots thing, I dont think its fits thematically with psychics. It also creates a game mechanic where you want to avoid spending dice for features, in case you want to cast more spells. You need seed money to gamble effectively, and you will need to gambke, because your total spell slots are halved.
if you are a level 8 psion, you'd have access to level 4 spells. youd have to spend 5 dice to cast one level 4 spell. your max dice is 6 at that level. if you roll a 5 or 6 the spell is free, if you fail, which is 2/3rds of the time, you have given up 5 .class mechanics to do something a normla full caster (or the old psion) could do two times, and 5 uses of energy dice.=
so now this level 8 charachter, without extra attack, or eldritch blast, or decent spell slots, and 1 energy dice, has only two level 2 spells and cantrips for the rest of that encounter.
Like, if this class concept and fantasy was a gambler, maybe you could justify this, but even then i think they need a better floor when gambling goes wrong, but for a class that isnt really about gambling, why do they give up so much on the prayer that they can get lucky and be equal to a full caster.
I undertand wanting to create distance between some full casters and psion, but this isnt worth it. And also, psion doesnt really play like wizards. Have you playtested the class? i think the many uses of energy dice ad fixed spells creates a notuceable difference between it, and wizards who have few mechanics outaide of casting spells more often.
No the problem isn’t that the current Psion is over powered, it’s that is pointless and should probably just be a wizard subclass as it’s currently written. That’s why I also suggested just making psionic subclass for every class. I was just looking to do something mechanically different. Originally the psionic gamble was just the level of the spell. But I realized that made it to power for repeatedly casting lvl 1 spells. The name was more of a reflection of the mechanics not the fantasy I was imagining. Note the ability allows you to cast from the whole Psion spell list and that is benefit that has to have some cost. Oh and I tried to offset the potential loss with 1d4 reserve energy die that allows you to use most of your features. Obviously I can’t whole heartily defend this design. I spent like 30-40 minutes on it. Most of that was just trying to get the grid to work. Lol I’m using an old tablet. If I end up staying up late and get bored I’ll take another swing at it. I get why designers struggle with the numbers when it comes to new mechanics. I was originally going to give it more energy dice, like 20 by level 20, but I realized it would be overpowered if it could cast multiple level 9 spells a day with ease.
Ah well, to me the class feels nothing like a wizard. To me the wizard is a dude who can basically cast every spell, a lot of times, and select whatever spell is needed in preparation and thats about it.
This class is married to its spell list, has a much less diverse set of choices, and spends a lot of time managing and playing around with its unique mechanics. I have playtested them all at 3/6/10 and a lot of what you are thinking about is which energy dice mechanics you are goung to use in what order.
wizard is, what spells are the best ones to use today, and get em all.
and psion is how can i best make use of all my features
and i noticed that in your design as well, it turned the energy dice mechanics primarily into a spell feul, but the way the class plays your energy dice is usually the thing you are more enaged with. Like really i would much rather have 5 energy dice than cast a level 4 spell. Spending 3 dice for a level 2 spell at level 5 is also crazy. I get that you are thinking of averages, but since you took away its full casterness, and gave it nothing it didnt have before, its basically just a worse full caster.
spend dice to get to almost full caster levels if you are lucky, is strictly inferior to just being a full caster, and having your dice. and other half casters all have strong baseline usecases, yours doesnt.
as i said before, subclasses have less design space and budget. any psion subclass is mostly the main class.
the only thing psion has in common with wizard is that its spell list is mostly a subset of wizard(like every arcane caster, and a decent portion of any caster)
it gets to dedicate a lot more features and subclasses towards the concept of a psion than any psion subclass can. You wont get something like what these classes are from any subclass of another class.
No the problem isn’t that the current Psion is over powered, it’s that is pointless and should probably just be a wizard subclass as it’s currently written. That’s why I also suggested just making psionic subclass for every class. I was just looking to do something mechanically different. Originally the psionic gamble was just the level of the spell. But I realized that made it to power for repeatedly casting lvl 1 spells. The name was more of a reflection of the mechanics not the fantasy I was imagining. Note the ability allows you to cast from the whole Psion spell list and that is benefit that has to have some cost. Oh and I tried to offset the potential loss with 1d4 reserve energy die that allows you to use most of your features. Obviously I can’t whole heartily defend this design. I spent like 30-40 minutes on it. Most of that was just trying to get the grid to work. Lol I’m using an old tablet. If I end up staying up late and get bored I’ll take another swing at it. I get why designers struggle with the numbers when it comes to new mechanics. I was originally going to give it more energy dice, like 20 by level 20, but I realized it would be overpowered if it could cast multiple level 9 spells a day with ease.
Probably better than this in the end. Though I'd love a redo of the 2e version of this class. MAD as hell, totally different and quirky power system. As long as it falls between worst and best classes currently in the game its fine. But make it feel different than just another caster somehow. At least 3e had a spell point system. Heck I think the warlock model would fit psions better than the wizard model.
I disagree.The UA Psion feels like a pointless wizard clone mechanically with some metamagic like features fuel by energy dice instead of sorcery points. Right now it’s just a middle ground between Wizard and Sorcerer with a narrower spell list. Maybe this fulfills the Psion fantasy for you, but I could get what this offers and more with a wizard and two feats. I’ve been playing this game for too long and if it’s just going to be repeated mechanics reskinned I won’t spend money on that book. If they are adding a new class it shouldn’t be this similar to what we already have. As a wizard subclass it would be fine. You really only lose Metamorph fantasy.
Wizard Psion subclass
3rd Psionic Power- only changes would be that either you get Energy Dice equal to half your level in the this class or you get ED equal to twice your PB.
3rd Psionic Discipline- use exactly what’s in the UA
6th- Psion Modes- I still believe modes shouldn’t be a limited resource.
10th- Pionic Surge- Since Modes arent limited hit die swap for energy die.
14th- Enkindled Lifeforce- A level 20 cap that doesn’t belong at level 20.
This isn’t me saying that there shouldn’t be a Psion class to fulfill that fantasy. This is me saying that a wizard subclass could do everything that the version of Psion we were given does. It needs to be more unique.
This UA provides the Psion with unique twists to spellcasting using Psionic Energy Dice and the Psionic Spellcasting feature, carving out a space to make the Psion stand out from its spellcasting peers
I read this in the UA and I completely disagree with it. It falls short of carving out a unique space from its Spellcasting peers. At first glance I thought it was simple and works, but it falls short of being unique. It’s an Int based Sorcerer. If that’s fun for you, do not let me rain on your parade. Enjoy it, but I want something more.
Okay I tried to do a no spell slot version, but that got messy. Then I thought about what I would need from it to make it feel different enough as a full caster to merit its existence and I couldn’t put my finger on it. So I went back to the half caster version and spent more time on it. If you read the last one I got rid of the gamble mechanic and attempted to make give it more choices to make on its bonus actions. At this point I’m coming up on 3 hours of working on this if you include the time I spent on it yesterday. That’s way to much time not being productive.
Psion
D8 Hit Point Dice
Spell
Slot
Per
Lvl
Level
Class Features
Energy Die
Number of Dice
Cantrips
Spells Prepared
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
Phychic Spell Slot Max Lvl
1st
Spellcasting, Psionic Power, Subtle Telekinesis
D6
4
2
2
2
-
-
-
-
-
2nd
Psionic Discipline, Psionic Modes
D6
4
2
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
3rd
Psion Subclass, Muster Power
D6
4
2
4
3
-
-
-
-
2nd
4th
ASI
D6
4
3
5
3
-
-
-
-
2nd
5th
Mental Reserves
D8
6
3
6
4
2
-
-
-
3rd
6th
Subclass Feature
D8
6
3
7
4
2
-
-
-
3rd
7th
Psonic Surge
D8
6
3
8
4
3
-
-
-
4th
8th
ASI
D8
6
3
9
4
3
-
-
-
4th
9th
Wild Talent Feat
D8
8
3
10
4
3
2
-
-
5th
10th
Subclass Feature,Psionic Discipline
D8
8
4
10
4
3
2
-
-
5th
11th
Awaken Power 6th level Spell
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
5th
12th
ASI
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
5th
13th
AP 7th level Spell
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
5th
14th
Subclass Feature
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
5th
15th
AP 8th level Spell
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
6th
16th
ASI
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
6th
17th
AP 9th level Spell, Psionic Discipline
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
6th
18th
Enkindled Lifeforce
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
6th
19th
Epic Boon
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
7th
20th
Psonic Restoration
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
7th
1st Spellcasting- Went half caster to make it different from Wizard but this is a full caster in reality through its features. No Components needed for Psion Spells except spells that have materials consumed by the spell or with a specified cost.
1st Psionic Power and Subtle Telekinesis no change.
2nd Psionic Modes are not a limited resource but only last until the end of your next turn.
3rd Muster Power- As a bonus action you gather your mental energies in preparation to cast a spell. You may expend any number of Psionic Energy Dice, roll them and add the result. You create a Psychic Spell slot equal to the result or your Psychic Spell Slot max level, whichever is lower. You may only have one Psychic Spell Slot at a time. It vanishes once it’s used to cast a spell, when you complete a long rest,if you die, or when you expend an Energy Die to create a new Psychic Spell Slot. If you have a Psychic Spell Slot and roll to create a new one add 1d4 to the roll.
5th Mental Reserves- In combat if you have no Energy Die you can use a bonus action to gain a Reserve Energy Die. It is a d4 Energy Die that can be used for any Psion feature that you roll an Energy Die, but not for features that you only expend the die without rolling it. You may only ever have 1 Reserve Energy Die. If you gain an Energy Die while you already have a Reserve Energy, the Reserve Energy Die you already have is loss.
7th Psionic Surge- Allows you to exchange an Energy die for a hit die and vice versa instead of a use of Modes since this version does not have limited uses of modes.
9th Wild Talent Feat- You gain a Wild Talent Feat of your choice even if you have already taken one. This Feat counts as a general feat for you.
11th Awakened Power 6th level Spell- You prepare two 6th level spells from the psion spell list. You can cast one of them once without expending a spell slot. It requires no components unless they are consumed by the spell or has a cost specified in the spell. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.
13th Awakened Power 7th level spell
15th Awakened Power 8th level spell
17th Awakened Power 9th level spell
18th Enkindled Lifeforce- no changes except level
20th Psionic Restoration- If you roll initiative and have less than 4 Energy Dice you have 4 Energy Dice. Additionally when you use Power Surge to regain an Energy Die you regain 2 instead.
Would it feel like a Psion if it had abilities that u can dump all your dice into them like you burning all you power in one attack? Add iconic spells as incantations like the warlock? Make abilities have more options the higher lvls to show growth ?
your psion is the same psion with less overall resources, and more focus on manipulating spell slots to try to get normal spell caster power.
it dedicates so much to manipulating dice to get spells it ends up sacrificing its psionic abilities.
and it doesnt really change the actual gameplay structure or how the class approaches play like warlock
This still comes across as a gambler, ithe main concept of your additions is to sacrifice energy dice resources to gamble in hopes to get a few more high end spells than your average caster. You have to spend energy dice and bonus actions to do so. The class has to spend its budget towards resource managment dice rolling.
And why is the psion fantasy linked to this resource gamble minigame? what about psions is symbolized by this system?
have you balanced this? the reward seems minimal for a class that is giving up use of its psionic fueled features (like telepathic buffs, spell slots less TK abilities, spell alterations, stat alterations, etc) and a lot of action economy. trying to get spells others get by resting, with bonus actions. (each of these psychic spells requires 1 BA + 1 magic action to use) and to get a lesser version of your psychic powers back, (your energy die) you use another BA. In a class that already has a bunch of psionic features which use BAs.
To make a serious attempt at your version of the class, you need to redesign most of the features and spells to play a lot nicer with your hefty resource managemnt cost and action requirements.
Personally while i didnt love using the baseline spell slot system to fuel the class, i havent seen any suggestions that tie into the gameplay or thematica in a way that improves the class. And in actual playtests the class's focus on energy dice and dice based features end up defining the class and gameplay a lot more than its magic resource system. Which makes more sense to me since those features are the more unique features in the class.
have you playtested, solo or group the UA class, or your revsion?
to give you an idea, most subclasses i tested at 10 were spending about 4-5 energy dice per fight and 2-3 spells, most of which are highest teir or one below it
can your design support that for 3 battles?, how much of the action economy is disrupted doing so?
as an aside, psion as presented in the UA cant be a wizard subclass unless you ignore all limits in budget, which if you are doing you could do with any two classes.
and also, psion gives you a base class with 4 different directions (subclasses) that increase its power and gameplay. whatever subclass you make would have to do the same thing with a lot less power budget and features dedicated to psionics.
Would this class work better if it were more like the Half Caster Warlock UA and added in a lot more Disciplines that utilize the Psionic Mechanic more? Seems to me that it would help it stand out from Wizard and Sorcerer more.
Just a thought
Yeah, I like the Psion but feel it would be nice to differentiate it even more from a Sorcerer with "psychic tweaks".
Like: a half-caster but with many more Disciplines, where some Disciplines just gave level-scaled "powers" (the Attack/Defence mode ability could be folded into these, e.g. a Discipline that gave Psychic Resistance and save boosts) while other level-gated Disciplines gave access to the higher-level spells and spell slots (for access to lovely Psychic Scream). Makes it a little bit of a half-caster warlock-y feel but think it would give more choices, so you could end up with very different Psions depending on which Disciplines you pick.
This would also fill in the weird gap where you get no class features at all.
No I didn’t playtest my half caster version. I spent like 40 mins on version 1, and maybe an hour and a half on version 2. They concepts not a finished class. The UA version does not use the energy die or other features enough to feel different enough than wizard and sorcerer. The disciplines already feel like variant metamagic. The mode is similar to innate sorcery. I played the UA Psykineticist and felt like I could have just been a Wizard. You are allowed to like the Psion as it is in the UA, just like I’m allowed to not like it.
Back to the half caster versions I mocked up. I listened to your critique of version 1 and agreed with some of your points. You made those same points about version 2 which means you didn’t really read it. Which is okay. Its only purpose is to make whoever reads it have ideas. There is no obligation for you to read it. I find it odd for you to comment about if you didn’t read it though. Version 2 definitely isn’t resource starved. It does have too many. I tried to off set how many resources it has access to by making it a class that focuses on what it’s doing with its action economy. At level 5 when it runs out of regular ED it can use a bonus action to get a 1d4 ED. It can then use its next bonus action to roll that ED to get a level 1-3 spell slot with a 50% chance it would be level 3 slot. At level 7 or above that 25% chance to muster up 4th level spell slot with the 1d4 energy die. Version 2 is overpowered and I knew it when I wrote it. Also it’s no longer a gamble mechanic anymore than an attack roll or damage roll is a gamble mechanic. It’s a die roll that represents how much energy you gather to form this extra spell slot. The class also has regular spell slots that can be used. You could also use the 1d4 ED on any feature that rolls the ED. I don’t have to playtest version 2 to know it’s not balanced, it’s actually too strong but you somehow think resource starved. Also the reason to focus on rolling the ED is to highlight that as the primary thing this does, so it’s not just being a wizard or sorcerer saying I cast _____ at 3rd level. So far we have two classes that use ED in the game. Psi Warrior and Soul Knife. They don’t have Spellcasting as a feature. The Psion should be a class that heavily focuses on ED use and management, not just Spellcasting.
As far as making Psion a wizard subclass I don’t need 4 different subclasses to fulfill the fantasy. I already did a mock up of one that with the right spell selection covers 3. The only fantasy that can’t be covered by a single wizard subclass is the Metamorph.
Again if you like this Psion, good for you. I don’t. If they print this UA in a book it’s one I will skip it. You can purchase it.
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This is false. The loading property only limits you to firing one piece of ammunition per action, bonus action, or reaction. It does not limit you to one attack per round with a loading weapon. Your math is still wrong and doesn't account for a paladin missing all of its attacks on a turn when you're factoring in your divine smite damage. Half of your arguments so far is that the paladin is better because it can survive melee and deals more damage. This was never a "Psion is better than Paladin argument" though that is what you decided to argue against. I said that the paladin did more damage, but the Psion was close and actually said the Psion was squishy in post 26. You still engage in fallacious arguments and completely ignore or misrepresent my claims while trying to debunk them. Once again you are comparing optimized and heavy resource intensive combat plans to non-optimized low resource intensive combat plans. Also fabricating positions for someone who disagrees with you, like you did in post 30, is not a good faith argument.
It really isn't worth arguing with you since you seem to take pushback personally and are missing the point of my analysis. The Psion in UA is the best full caster base class at control while also contributing to damage. The damage they can contribute while continuing to control the battlefield is better than any other full caster other than a sorcerer. If they try to go for a single target damage focused build it is significantly easier because the base class and subclasses have better tools for that than other classes. The only other base class that can compete in this role is the sorcerer, but they don't have the sorcery points to do it as long as the Psion in every tier of play except maybe the end of tier 3 and tier 4 due to the fact that they have enough spell slots to convert into sorcery points. I talk about this in post 26, and post 32.
loading, as i said in that sentence you quoted, is irrelvant the point is if the psion is using two hands, the paladin can use two hands. ie, they can do 2d6 either via dual wielding or greatsword. Light xbow is a two handed weapon.
my math doesnt need to account for a paladin missing all their attacks in a round, because am looking at the damage throughout the day,. if a paladin can land 10 attacks in the day, they will do 10 smites worth of damage. dual wielding paladin attempts at least 48 attacks in 4 combat day, a two weapon fighting paladin attemps at least 32. the chance of them missing enough attacks to be unable to use their smites is not really very likely until they are starting to be able to smite every single round, which is at like 20. but even so its not actually much of a factor, because its the weakest smites they would be missing out on, and that could easily be solved by casting divine favor instead of smiting with 2d8s.
and even if you wanted to account for it, with a hit rate of .6, the chance of you missing both attacks is 14% (take the chance of missing twice .4*.4 then 1- that chance is your chance of hitting at least once)
which still doesnt come close to making up the difference, and it would be less accurate than what i propose, as those smites would be used in later rounds.
using every single one of your energy dice is not a low resource plan, thats a heavy resource plan. it also consumes your action, and your bonus action. this means while using that strategy, you cant do anything else. energy dice for the psion, as i said earlier has a lot of other uses, like defense, landing debuffs, defending teamates. so using all of them for the purpose of damage would be considered a high resource game plan.
the reason i was talking about squishyness, was because i was trying to think what conceivable reason a paladin wouldnt have a complimentary fighting style, which is only if they choose a defensive one. The point was paladins who are doing less damage than psions are choosing defensive builds, if the psion chooses a defensive build, it is likely to spend its energy dice on different things, like psionic backlash, defense mode saves, landing debuffs.
but i forgoed that whole argument, because even according to the situation you want to evaluate, the psion isnt competing.
this is not personal, im not trying to disprove you for kicks, we are trying to understand and give feedback on the psion class, and are looking at its strengths and weaknesses, and how they compare with other classes, my point is not that the psion is a weak class, my point is the psion is not in the paladin class of martial capability, or even particularly close to it. People giving feedback and reading this thread, should not think, that psion, with swift precognition is roughly on par with a paladin's martial prowess and give feedback with that in mind, because it is not accurate.
psion is probably better than many martials, because its a full caster and can do things they just cant do, however, with the current iteration, its not offensively competitive with a pld at single target damage, and its not competitive with offensive casters at aoe damage/single target damage.
i like swift precognition, (and the psiwarper BA cantrip) because i prefer being martial focused, and having BA options, but as far as my testing shows, its not really offensively a huge deal compared to dedicated martials, because they get a lot of built in support for it, which is ok, its a full caster, its just doing martial stuff because thats the fantasy the player is going for, not for peak efficiency.
Im testing a party of psions currently, and so far, the more cast focused subclasses and themes are making the biggest contributions, and i doubt that will change.
I agree the psion is great at control, but its not great at damage, using energy dice for damage makes you less good at control, in which case the bard surpasses you at control. (the big difference is using energy dice to make spells more effective, the spell list is extremely similar, except at 10 they get cleric and wizards list as well)
druid has spells like conjure animals, woodland beings, and conjure minor elemental,
wizard has basically every arcane spell, and lots of slots, and the ability to change spells each day to suit the situation, its going to beat the psion at damage.
it probably has more control than a cleric. it probably has more damage than bard.
i think the big thing its got going for it is a fun theme, and a lot of options and a bit of customizability. I think it could use more unique spells, that fit the themes (metamorph is the most lacking in this regard, though psikinetist could use some high end stuff) and bit more energy dice management, or less abilities that consume energy dice.
I think Psion is actually fairly balanced. Juts maybe throw in a bit more hit points for Metamorph, because that seems like it's supposed to be a skirmisher.
I think 2024 Archfey Warlock multiclasses are going to be common with Psi Warper subclass-- it seems like it'd be fun, although a bit MAD.
I dunno. A bit underwhelming, but the Psionic dice really buff the class. Not sure what to think,but it's definitely one of the better UA psionic subclasses proposed.
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It would be nice if this class was more different from the Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard.
I would go stronger and offer Light armor either at the base class or at the subclass level. For Metamorph I would add +1 or 2/level HP to help them stay in the fight. Or, give them a Rage like option.
I would go stronger with more Psionic Discipline slots and variety of options. This could replace some of the spells, which I would go lighter. Somewhat of an inverse Sorcerer/Warlock.
I also agree with many of the comments; there needs to be something for the base class between levels 7 and 19.
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i think they dont have enough psionic disciplines at high levels, you eventually get 6 out of a pool of 11. They could add new disciplines at higher levels that fit within some of the sub themes, boost physical, boost magic, boost mental. As is, eventually everyone has mostly the same diciplines, even if they are going for different themes
Do we need a Psion class or could we just have the subclasses for each class
Barbarian- Path of the Psy Rager- gets energy dice, psychic resistance, can expend ED to add Str to Int, Wis, Cha saves while raging. Use telekinetic propel while raging
Bard- College of Thought- basically the UA telepath class thrown on the Bard
Cleric- Mind Domain- pionic spells,
Druid- Circle of the Metamorph- literally just make it a Druid.
Fighter- Psy Knight- already done
Monk- Warrior of Astral Self- needs to be redone
Paladin- Oath of the Free Mind- Aura of Mind’s Reach can teleport creatures within aura to another point in the aura, can make melee attack against any target within the aura if they are beyond melee range damage is psychic.
Ranger- Nightmare Trapper- Energy dice, hunters mark can deal all psychic damage,
Rogue- Soul Knife- already done
Sorcerer- Aberent Mind- already don
Warlock- Great Old One- already done
Wizard- Psykineticist- just make it a wizard subclass
Artificer- Void Crafter- can create some material components with its mind.
This is just a bunch of quick ideas.
I'm currently playtesting, and its actually pretty fun, and i like that it has a class plus subclass interactions.
thing with a sub class, is its always primarily the main class, and the subclass has to work within
i actually like the energy dice and psionic class features more than any other caster's base kit, except warlock, if you consider them a full caster.
essentially, a class lets you dedicate more design space and features to one concept, while subclasses you can dedicate 4 or 5 features or so, but the base class dominates a lot of who the charachter is/does.
they can, and probably will make more 'psionic' subclasses for main classes.
One last shot at what a Psion could look like. This time as a half caster, but with features that make it practically a full caster. I’m bored. This is what I do when I’m bored. Lol
Psion
D8 Hit Point Die, All other proficiencies, saves, and training the same
Psion
Spell
Slot
Per
Spell
LvL
Level
Class Features
Energy Die
Number of Dice
Cantrips
Spells Prepared
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
1st
Spellcasting, Psionic Power
D6
4
2
2
2
-
-
-
-
2nd
Psionic Discipline, Psionic Modes
D6
4
2
3
2
-
-
-
-
3rd
Psion Subclass
D6
4
2
4
3
-
-
-
-
4th
ASI
D6
4
3
5
3
-
-
-
-
5th
Psionic Gamble
D8
6
3
6
4
2
-
-
-
6th
Subclass Feature
D8
6
3
7
4
2
-
-
-
7th
Psionic Surge
D8
6
3
8
4
3
-
-
-
8th
ASI
D8
6
3
9
4
3
-
-
-
9th
Mental Reserves
D8
8
3
10
4
3
2
-
-
10th
Subclass Feature,Psionic Discipline
D8
8
4
10
4
3
2
-
-
11th
Awaken Power 6th level Spell
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
12th
ASI
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
13th
AP 7th level Spell
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
14th
Subclass Feature
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
15th
AP 8th level Spell
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
16th
ASI
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
17th
AP 9th level Spell, Psionic Discipline
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
18th
Enkindled Lifeforce
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
19th
Epic Boon
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
20th
Psionic Restoration
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
1st Spellcasting- Went half caster to make it different from Wizard but this is a full caster in reality through its features. No Components needed for Psion Spells except spells that have materials consumed by the spell or with a specified cost.
1st Psionic Power- mostly the same. Telekinetic Propel change “creature” to read “target” allowing this to be used on objects that are large or smaller as well. This helps offset the fact that I dropped subtle telekinesis. Telepathic Connection change it to 10ft for the base range and it last ten minutes, the roll only changes the distance.
2nd Psionic Discipline- no changes
2nd Psionic Modes- can be used unlimited times per day. The cost is just action economy. This will change Psionic Surge
5th Psionic Gamble- All new feature that makes you practically a full caster and allows you the most versatile spell selection. “As a magic action choose a spell from the Psion spell list that is no higher than half your Psion level rounded up with a cast time of one action. You expend a number of Energy Dice equal to the Spells level +1. After you have cast the spell roll a d6. If the roll is equal or higher than the number of energy dice you expended you immediately regain a number of Energy dice equal to the spells level.” Note if you use this on a spell of 6th level or higher there is no point rolling the d6 since you cant roll a 7 higher. This does mean by sacrificing most of its ED this Psion could cast 2 9th level spells in a day.
7th Psionic Surge- Allows you to exchange an Energy die for a hit die instead of a use of Modes since this version doesnt have limited uses of modes.
9th Mental Reserves- If you have no Energy Die at the start of your turn you gain a Reserve Energy Die. A It can be used for any Psion feature that you roll an Energy Die, but not for features that you only expend the die without rolling it. You may only ever have 1 Reserve Energy Die. If you gain an Energy Die while you already have a Reserve Energy, the Reserve Energy Die you already have is loss.
11th Awakened Power 6th level Spell- You prepare one 6th level spell from the psion spell list. You can cast it once without expending a spell slot. It requires no components unless they are consumed by the spell or has a cost specified in the spell. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.
13th Awakened Power 7th level spell
15th Awakened Power 8th level spell
17th Awakened Power 9th level spell
18th Enkindled Lifeforce- no changes except level
20th Psionic Restoration- If you roll initiative and have less than Energy Dice you have 4 Energy Dice. Additionally when you use Power Surge to regain an Energy Die you regain 2 instead.
I like Psions Fiction.
re half caster design psion
did you find the psion to be overpowered? because mostly this just lowers their casting power without gaining much.
generally half casters are designed to function without spell slots, but your will quickly struggle. they will only have access to weaker spells, and not many baseline uses without
The gambling for slots thing, I dont think its fits thematically with psychics. It also creates a game mechanic where you want to avoid spending dice for features, in case you want to cast more spells. You need seed money to gamble effectively, and you will need to gambke, because your total spell slots are halved.
if you are a level 8 psion, you'd have access to level 4 spells. youd have to spend 5 dice to cast one level 4 spell. your max dice is 6 at that level. if you roll a 5 or 6 the spell is free, if you fail, which is 2/3rds of the time, you have given up 5 .class mechanics to do something a normla full caster (or the old psion) could do two times, and 5 uses of energy dice.=
so now this level 8 charachter, without extra attack, or eldritch blast, or decent spell slots, and 1 energy dice, has only two level 2 spells and cantrips for the rest of that encounter.
Like, if this class concept and fantasy was a gambler, maybe you could justify this, but even then i think they need a better floor when gambling goes wrong, but for a class that isnt really about gambling, why do they give up so much on the prayer that they can get lucky and be equal to a full caster.
I undertand wanting to create distance between some full casters and psion, but this isnt worth it. And also, psion doesnt really play like wizards. Have you playtested the class? i think the many uses of energy dice ad fixed spells creates a notuceable difference between it, and wizards who have few mechanics outaide of casting spells more often.
No the problem isn’t that the current Psion is over powered, it’s that is pointless and should probably just be a wizard subclass as it’s currently written. That’s why I also suggested just making psionic subclass for every class. I was just looking to do something mechanically different. Originally the psionic gamble was just the level of the spell. But I realized that made it to power for repeatedly casting lvl 1 spells. The name was more of a reflection of the mechanics not the fantasy I was imagining. Note the ability allows you to cast from the whole Psion spell list and that is benefit that has to have some cost. Oh and I tried to offset the potential loss with 1d4 reserve energy die that allows you to use most of your features. Obviously I can’t whole heartily defend this design. I spent like 30-40 minutes on it. Most of that was just trying to get the grid to work. Lol I’m using an old tablet. If I end up staying up late and get bored I’ll take another swing at it. I get why designers struggle with the numbers when it comes to new mechanics. I was originally going to give it more energy dice, like 20 by level 20, but I realized it would be overpowered if it could cast multiple level 9 spells a day with ease.
Ah well, to me the class feels nothing like a wizard. To me the wizard is a dude who can basically cast every spell, a lot of times, and select whatever spell is needed in preparation and thats about it.
This class is married to its spell list, has a much less diverse set of choices, and spends a lot of time managing and playing around with its unique mechanics. I have playtested them all at 3/6/10 and a lot of what you are thinking about is which energy dice mechanics you are goung to use in what order.
wizard is, what spells are the best ones to use today, and get em all.
and psion is how can i best make use of all my features
and i noticed that in your design as well, it turned the energy dice mechanics primarily into a spell feul, but the way the class plays your energy dice is usually the thing you are more enaged with. Like really i would much rather have 5 energy dice than cast a level 4 spell. Spending 3 dice for a level 2 spell at level 5 is also crazy. I get that you are thinking of averages, but since you took away its full casterness, and gave it nothing it didnt have before, its basically just a worse full caster.
spend dice to get to almost full caster levels if you are lucky, is strictly inferior to just being a full caster, and having your dice. and other half casters all have strong baseline usecases, yours doesnt.
as i said before, subclasses have less design space and budget. any psion subclass is mostly the main class.
the only thing psion has in common with wizard is that its spell list is mostly a subset of wizard(like every arcane caster, and a decent portion of any caster)
it gets to dedicate a lot more features and subclasses towards the concept of a psion than any psion subclass can. You wont get something like what these classes are from any subclass of another class.
Probably better than this in the end. Though I'd love a redo of the 2e version of this class. MAD as hell, totally different and quirky power system. As long as it falls between worst and best classes currently in the game its fine. But make it feel different than just another caster somehow. At least 3e had a spell point system. Heck I think the warlock model would fit psions better than the wizard model.
I disagree.The UA Psion feels like a pointless wizard clone mechanically with some metamagic like features fuel by energy dice instead of sorcery points. Right now it’s just a middle ground between Wizard and Sorcerer with a narrower spell list. Maybe this fulfills the Psion fantasy for you, but I could get what this offers and more with a wizard and two feats. I’ve been playing this game for too long and if it’s just going to be repeated mechanics reskinned I won’t spend money on that book. If they are adding a new class it shouldn’t be this similar to what we already have. As a wizard subclass it would be fine. You really only lose Metamorph fantasy.
Wizard Psion subclass
3rd Psionic Power- only changes would be that either you get Energy Dice equal to half your level in the this class or you get ED equal to twice your PB.
3rd Psionic Discipline- use exactly what’s in the UA
6th- Psion Modes- I still believe modes shouldn’t be a limited resource.
10th- Pionic Surge- Since Modes arent limited hit die swap for energy die.
14th- Enkindled Lifeforce- A level 20 cap that doesn’t belong at level 20.
This isn’t me saying that there shouldn’t be a Psion class to fulfill that fantasy. This is me saying that a wizard subclass could do everything that the version of Psion we were given does. It needs to be more unique.
I read this in the UA and I completely disagree with it. It falls short of carving out a unique space from its Spellcasting peers. At first glance I thought it was simple and works, but it falls short of being unique. It’s an Int based Sorcerer. If that’s fun for you, do not let me rain on your parade. Enjoy it, but I want something more.
Okay I tried to do a no spell slot version, but that got messy. Then I thought about what I would need from it to make it feel different enough as a full caster to merit its existence and I couldn’t put my finger on it. So I went back to the half caster version and spent more time on it. If you read the last one I got rid of the gamble mechanic and attempted to make give it more choices to make on its bonus actions. At this point I’m coming up on 3 hours of working on this if you include the time I spent on it yesterday. That’s way to much time not being productive.
Psion
D8 Hit Point Dice
Spell
Slot
Per
Lvl
Level
Class Features
Energy Die
Number of Dice
Cantrips
Spells Prepared
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
Phychic Spell Slot Max Lvl
1st
Spellcasting, Psionic Power, Subtle Telekinesis
D6
4
2
2
2
-
-
-
-
-
2nd
Psionic Discipline, Psionic Modes
D6
4
2
3
2
-
-
-
-
-
3rd
Psion Subclass, Muster Power
D6
4
2
4
3
-
-
-
-
2nd
4th
ASI
D6
4
3
5
3
-
-
-
-
2nd
5th
Mental Reserves
D8
6
3
6
4
2
-
-
-
3rd
6th
Subclass Feature
D8
6
3
7
4
2
-
-
-
3rd
7th
Psonic Surge
D8
6
3
8
4
3
-
-
-
4th
8th
ASI
D8
6
3
9
4
3
-
-
-
4th
9th
Wild Talent Feat
D8
8
3
10
4
3
2
-
-
5th
10th
Subclass Feature,Psionic Discipline
D8
8
4
10
4
3
2
-
-
5th
11th
Awaken Power 6th level Spell
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
5th
12th
ASI
D10
8
4
11
4
3
3
-
-
5th
13th
AP 7th level Spell
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
5th
14th
Subclass Feature
D10
10
4
12
4
3
3
1
-
5th
15th
AP 8th level Spell
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
6th
16th
ASI
D10
10
4
13
4
3
3
2
-
6th
17th
AP 9th level Spell, Psionic Discipline
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
6th
18th
Enkindled Lifeforce
D12
12
4
14
4
3
3
3
1
6th
19th
Epic Boon
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
7th
20th
Psonic Restoration
D12
12
4
15
4
3
3
3
2
7th
1st Spellcasting- Went half caster to make it different from Wizard but this is a full caster in reality through its features. No Components needed for Psion Spells except spells that have materials consumed by the spell or with a specified cost.
1st Psionic Power and Subtle Telekinesis no change.
2nd Psionic Modes are not a limited resource but only last until the end of your next turn.
3rd Muster Power- As a bonus action you gather your mental energies in preparation to cast a spell. You may expend any number of Psionic Energy Dice, roll them and add the result. You create a Psychic Spell slot equal to the result or your Psychic Spell Slot max level, whichever is lower. You may only have one Psychic Spell Slot at a time. It vanishes once it’s used to cast a spell, when you complete a long rest,if you die, or when you expend an Energy Die to create a new Psychic Spell Slot. If you have a Psychic Spell Slot and roll to create a new one add 1d4 to the roll.
5th Mental Reserves- In combat if you have no Energy Die you can use a bonus action to gain a Reserve Energy Die. It is a d4 Energy Die that can be used for any Psion feature that you roll an Energy Die, but not for features that you only expend the die without rolling it. You may only ever have 1 Reserve Energy Die. If you gain an Energy Die while you already have a Reserve Energy, the Reserve Energy Die you already have is loss.
7th Psionic Surge- Allows you to exchange an Energy die for a hit die and vice versa instead of a use of Modes since this version does not have limited uses of modes.
9th Wild Talent Feat- You gain a Wild Talent Feat of your choice even if you have already taken one. This Feat counts as a general feat for you.
11th Awakened Power 6th level Spell- You prepare two 6th level spells from the psion spell list. You can cast one of them once without expending a spell slot. It requires no components unless they are consumed by the spell or has a cost specified in the spell. You may change one Awakened Power spell of a level you can cast for one of the same level when you complete a long rest.
13th Awakened Power 7th level spell
15th Awakened Power 8th level spell
17th Awakened Power 9th level spell
18th Enkindled Lifeforce- no changes except level
20th Psionic Restoration- If you roll initiative and have less than 4 Energy Dice you have 4 Energy Dice. Additionally when you use Power Surge to regain an Energy Die you regain 2 instead.
Would it feel like a Psion if it had abilities that u can dump all your dice into them like you burning all you power in one attack? Add iconic spells as incantations like the warlock? Make abilities have more options the higher lvls to show growth ?
ain undos
your psion is the same psion with less overall resources, and more focus on manipulating spell slots to try to get normal spell caster power.
it dedicates so much to manipulating dice to get spells it ends up sacrificing its psionic abilities.
and it doesnt really change the actual gameplay structure or how the class approaches play like warlock
This still comes across as a gambler, ithe main concept of your additions is to sacrifice energy dice resources to gamble in hopes to get a few more high end spells than your average caster. You have to spend energy dice and bonus actions to do so. The class has to spend its budget towards resource managment dice rolling.
And why is the psion fantasy linked to this resource gamble minigame? what about psions is symbolized by this system?
have you balanced this? the reward seems minimal for a class that is giving up use of its psionic fueled features (like telepathic buffs, spell slots less TK abilities, spell alterations, stat alterations, etc) and a lot of action economy. trying to get spells others get by resting, with bonus actions. (each of these psychic spells requires 1 BA + 1 magic action to use) and to get a lesser version of your psychic powers back, (your energy die) you use another BA. In a class that already has a bunch of psionic features which use BAs.
To make a serious attempt at your version of the class, you need to redesign most of the features and spells to play a lot nicer with your hefty resource managemnt cost and action requirements.
Personally while i didnt love using the baseline spell slot system to fuel the class, i havent seen any suggestions that tie into the gameplay or thematica in a way that improves the class. And in actual playtests the class's focus on energy dice and dice based features end up defining the class and gameplay a lot more than its magic resource system. Which makes more sense to me since those features are the more unique features in the class.
have you playtested, solo or group the UA class, or your revsion?
to give you an idea, most subclasses i tested at 10 were spending about 4-5 energy dice per fight and 2-3 spells, most of which are highest teir or one below it
can your design support that for 3 battles?, how much of the action economy is disrupted doing so?
as an aside, psion as presented in the UA cant be a wizard subclass unless you ignore all limits in budget, which if you are doing you could do with any two classes.
and also, psion gives you a base class with 4 different directions (subclasses) that increase its power and gameplay. whatever subclass you make would have to do the same thing with a lot less power budget and features dedicated to psionics.
Yeah, I like the Psion but feel it would be nice to differentiate it even more from a Sorcerer with "psychic tweaks".
Like: a half-caster but with many more Disciplines, where some Disciplines just gave level-scaled "powers" (the Attack/Defence mode ability could be folded into these, e.g. a Discipline that gave Psychic Resistance and save boosts) while other level-gated Disciplines gave access to the higher-level spells and spell slots (for access to lovely Psychic Scream). Makes it a little bit of a half-caster warlock-y feel but think it would give more choices, so you could end up with very different Psions depending on which Disciplines you pick.
This would also fill in the weird gap where you get no class features at all.
GWAR1
No I didn’t playtest my half caster version. I spent like 40 mins on version 1, and maybe an hour and a half on version 2. They concepts not a finished class. The UA version does not use the energy die or other features enough to feel different enough than wizard and sorcerer. The disciplines already feel like variant metamagic. The mode is similar to innate sorcery. I played the UA Psykineticist and felt like I could have just been a Wizard. You are allowed to like the Psion as it is in the UA, just like I’m allowed to not like it.
Back to the half caster versions I mocked up. I listened to your critique of version 1 and agreed with some of your points. You made those same points about version 2 which means you didn’t really read it. Which is okay. Its only purpose is to make whoever reads it have ideas. There is no obligation for you to read it. I find it odd for you to comment about if you didn’t read it though. Version 2 definitely isn’t resource starved. It does have too many. I tried to off set how many resources it has access to by making it a class that focuses on what it’s doing with its action economy. At level 5 when it runs out of regular ED it can use a bonus action to get a 1d4 ED. It can then use its next bonus action to roll that ED to get a level 1-3 spell slot with a 50% chance it would be level 3 slot. At level 7 or above that 25% chance to muster up 4th level spell slot with the 1d4 energy die. Version 2 is overpowered and I knew it when I wrote it. Also it’s no longer a gamble mechanic anymore than an attack roll or damage roll is a gamble mechanic. It’s a die roll that represents how much energy you gather to form this extra spell slot. The class also has regular spell slots that can be used. You could also use the 1d4 ED on any feature that rolls the ED. I don’t have to playtest version 2 to know it’s not balanced, it’s actually too strong but you somehow think resource starved. Also the reason to focus on rolling the ED is to highlight that as the primary thing this does, so it’s not just being a wizard or sorcerer saying I cast _____ at 3rd level. So far we have two classes that use ED in the game. Psi Warrior and Soul Knife. They don’t have Spellcasting as a feature. The Psion should be a class that heavily focuses on ED use and management, not just Spellcasting.
As far as making Psion a wizard subclass I don’t need 4 different subclasses to fulfill the fantasy. I already did a mock up of one that with the right spell selection covers 3. The only fantasy that can’t be covered by a single wizard subclass is the Metamorph.
Again if you like this Psion, good for you. I don’t. If they print this UA in a book it’s one I will skip it. You can purchase it.