Doesn’t matter that you don’t consider picking something and thus giving up other possibilties a sacrifice. It is. You have sacrificed the other possibilites. So multiclassing gives you more spell slots but you lose out on higher level spells and features. That’s a sacrifice as well, no matter how you consider it. I’m not against a Gish Sorcerer. I’m just telling you that you are never going to get one that has smites or a smite like feature because it will simply be far better at it than half casters. They just did a ton of work trying to rebalance the game, why would they throw it away to make a Sorcerer that can just smite better than a Paladin, still has all of its feat choices, and has its full spell progression because it didn’t have to multi class. Oh and let’s not forget that any smite spell that has a saving throw you would likely have a higher DC as a sorcerer. This becomes especially egregious if this gish subclass uses Cha for weapon attacks and damage which is a staple of gish subclasses now a days.
With 6 Paladin/14 Sorcerer you get spellslots up to lvl 9. in fact you have the amount of spell slots like a lvl 17 sorcerer. Yes, less than a lvl 20, but you can not ignore, that a loss somewhere is also a gain somewhere else, no matter what you consider it to be. You mentioned it yourself, Aura of Protection, Extra Attack… And yes, now we have a de facto paladin and sorcerer, who can do smites up to lvl 9. Or you could also sacrifice that 9th level spell slot for a dip in Warlock and Pact of the Blade. There is your SAD Paladin with lvl 8 smites and using CHA for attacks.
And for the record, I never said that a GISH sorcer HAS TO HAVE smites. It was an option. And Wrathful at least is obtainable already.
On a side note, when the new FR campaign setting will be released it will most likely contain the Bladesinger. Than we‘ve got a INT SAD GISH with CME and whatever on top, which might compete with the Valour Bard in that department. Yes, CME is not a smite, but damage-wise especially when upcast it is more than close.
A wizard subclass that competes with a bard subclass is fine. A Sorcerer subclass that would out smite the Paladin class is bad. It would get its smites earlier and they would be stronger. You example of a Paladin/Sorcerers multiclasss is what players should do if they want to smite as a Sorcerer. It is not justification to give a Sorcerer subclass smites. If we get a Sorcerer Subclass that is similar to Bladesinger and Valor Bard that would be fine. That is literally what you said you didn’t want.
A gish Sorcerer Subclass should have a more creative way to improve martial prowess than extra attack at lvl 6. It should be heavily related to his lore and flavour.
smite like attacks would be a good option. A different way to add another weapon attack would be nessesary too. Maybe some kind of Deja Vu attack for a Time Sorcerer. Create illusion which make weapon attacks for an Illusion Sorcery... Idk. Stuff like that.
When you cast Flame Blade you can cast it with a spell slot as normal or cast it with Sorcery points by expending a number equal to the level at which you want to cast the spell. You may only expend Sorcery points up to a number equal to half your level rounded up. When you use Sorcery Points to cast Flame Blade its duration is 1 minute and it has the following benefits.
You may choose the damage type: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, or Radiant
You may use the blade as a focus.
The blade counts as a weapon worth 10 gp for your Sorcerer spells that require a material component.
3rd Warrior’s Blood
When you complete a short or long rest you can roll a number of d6 equal to your sorcerer level and gain temporary hit points equal to the result. Additionally when you cast Arcane Vigor you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the hit points restored by the spell.
6th Swift Blade
When you use a Magic Action to attack with Flame Blade you may make a second attack with the Blade as part of the same Action. If you hit with this second attack you only roll half the damage die rounded down.
14th Arcane Shields
When you cast Shield you gain 1d4+5 to your AC and if you are hit before the start of your next turn you regain the spell slot. Additionally when you cast Fire Shield you can choose the resistance and damage type separately, and can choose from Acid,Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, or Thunder.
18th Arcane Blade Master
Anytime you hit with Flame Blade you can choose the damage type and you can choose any damage type. Additionally, once on your turn when you hit with Flame Blade you may use your bonus action to expend a spell slot and add 1d6+1d6 per spell slot level additional damage of the same type as Flame Blade.
I am not interested in another "Bladesinger, but for Sorcerer" gish. It just feels like you're duct-taping a weapon attack option onto a caster.wer of a spell into a melee attack. Maybe even just a way to upgrade the existing melee cantrips with spell slots.
Now about your Arcane Warrior subclass. Why can‘t Thunder be chosen for the Flame Blade, but Radiant? Radiant btw. outclasses the damage types regarding reliability, as it is mostly resisted by creatures you will find the least as adversaries. That‘s like the Transmuters ‚Philosopher Stone‘ (or however it was called) and the bonus to CON saves outclassing all other options. If one choice is clearly better than the others, there is no choice.
Since you set no limit on the sorcery points able to spent on an FB per level. a sorcerer of lower level can simply sacrifice spell slots to acquire a 9th level 10d6 (radiant) flame blade via sorcery points. No problem at Tier 2 already.
Your level 18 feature basically is a 2014 smite. Yes, it‘s d6s instead of d8s, but much like the Eldritch Smite it comes without the need to spend a bonus action. And the Warlock has a limited amount of spell slots on top, compared to the Sorcerer. Plus now you have a Flame Blade, which might have been upcast already to 10d6+Cha damage per hit, and you throw your 9th lvl spell slot to add another 10d6 damage to a hit. That‘s 20d6, another 19d6+Cha/2 on the second hit (all radiant), and with the bonus action still available to cast a quickened chromatic orb.
How does this not outshine a Paladin?
Further, why not „Warrior Sorcery“ or similar, as every subclass now is called something with ‚Sorcery‘, like every subclass in 2014 was containing the word „bloodline“.
Scatter wrote his post and then you replied, “ I do very much agree.” I don’t see a reason why I need to copy paste or quote previously stated things. You either very much agree with scatter or you don’t. I really don’t care either way. As for the Arcane Warrior the Arcane Blade feature does state you can only expend Sorcery points up to half your level rounded up. So you couldn’t just cast Flame Blade at a higher level. The highest level a full sorcerer could cast it at. Would be the same as their highest level spell slot. The typo is it’s supposed to read half your level in this class. So as I wrote it you could be a level 9 sorcerer/8 non caster or half caster and still be able to use sorcery points to cast level 9 flame blade. This is a mistake and is fixed by adding “in this class” or “half your sorcerer leve; rounded up.”
Why no thunder, because I think a fire that does thunder damage is stupid. No other reason. I almost left poison off the list also. As far as damage types being better than others it’s objectively false. They don’t matter. Damage type is mostly flavor unless you are playing in prewritten adventures. All that matters is can you do full damage or is it resisted. Occasionally something is vulnerable, but the DM decides all of this. Honestly the way 2024 is written I could have just said you can make force damage and been done with it.
My 18th level ability is just smite, but it offers nothing but more dice rolls at a lower sized dice. You don’t get it til the Paladin has gotten to play with all of their different kind of smites. Also you have to use your bonus action to use this feature just like smite spells so it’s limited to once on your turn. That also means you aren’t using your bonus action to quicken a spell, which in many cases would be the objectively better option. Also you missed that the second attack only allows you to roll half the damage dice. So if your first attack is 10d6+5, your second would only be 5d6+5.
This was made as an example that is not like a bladesinger, but doesn’t poop all over the Paladin or other Martial classes. It’s a melee subclass, but isn’t a Gish. It’s uses the sorcerer resources to stay in melee. It relies on mage armor and shield to remain in the frontline. The flaws I see looking at it now is that I missed noting it should be sorcerer level for Arcane blade. It probably needs wording to stop it from multiclassing to get heavy armor and a shield. Maybe capping the capstone to only 5th level or lower spell slots. Considering I made this up in an hour while half sleep I’m shocked it’s not worse.
Scatter wrote his post and then you replied, “ I do very much agree.” I don’t see a reason why I need to copy paste or quote previously stated things. You either very much agree with scatter or you don’t. I really don’t care either way. As for the Arcane Warrior the Arcane Blade feature does state you can only expend Sorcery points up to half your level rounded up. So you couldn’t just cast Flame Blade at a higher level. The highest level a full sorcerer could cast it at. Would be the same as their highest level spell slot. The typo is it’s supposed to read half your level in this class. So as I wrote it you could be a level 9 sorcerer/8 non caster or half caster and still be able to use sorcery points to cast level 9 flame blade. This is a mistake and is fixed by adding “in this class” or “half your sorcerer leve; rounded up.”
Why no thunder, because I think a fire that does thunder damage is stupid. No other reason. I almost left poison off the list also. As far as damage types being better than others it’s objectively false. They don’t matter. Damage type is mostly flavor unless you are playing in prewritten adventures. All that matters is can you do full damage or is it resisted. Occasionally something is vulnerable, but the DM decides all of this. Honestly the way 2024 is written I could have just said you can make force damage and been done with it.
My 18th level ability is just smite, but it offers nothing but more dice rolls at a lower sized dice. You don’t get it til the Paladin has gotten to play with all of their different kind of smites. Also you have to use your bonus action to use this feature just like smite spells so it’s limited to once on your turn. That also means you aren’t using your bonus action to quicken a spell, which in many cases would be the objectively better option. Also you missed that the second attack only allows you to roll half the damage dice. So if your first attack is 10d6+5, your second would only be 5d6+5.
This was made as an example that is not like a bladesinger, but doesn’t poop all over the Paladin or other Martial classes. It’s a melee subclass, but isn’t a Gish. It’s uses the sorcerer resources to stay in melee. It relies on mage armor and shield to remain in the frontline. The flaws I see looking at it now is that I missed noting it should be sorcerer level for Arcane blade. It probably needs wording to stop it from multiclassing to get heavy armor and a shield. Maybe capping the capstone to only 5th level or lower spell slots. Considering I made this up in an hour while half sleep I’m shocked it’s not worse.
For clarification, I agree that a solution other than a Valour Bard/Bladesinger copy would be very welcome. Neither did I say „It has to be“, nor did I say „I insist on a sorcerer Gish getting smites. I said, I don‘t see a reason why this option is not viable, especially if it‘s only one, or two smite spells, and not the whole arsenal, and of course not the signature spell, Divine Smite. But Thunderous Smite, why not? Hey, Clerics now got some Paladin spells like Aura of Vitality. Does this also count as „pooping all over the paladin“?
Uhuh, fire that does thunder damage is stupid. But fire that does cold/lightning/poison/necrotic damage is fine? Please expand.
Regarding the second attack, I wrote 19d6+CHA/2. ‚/2‘ means ‚divided by 2‘.
Other than that this is a pretty boring subclass, mechanical-wise. No synergies. Just some beefed up spells.
With 6 Paladin/14 Sorcerer you get spellslots up to lvl 9. in fact you have the amount of spell slots like a lvl 17 sorcerer. Yes, less than a lvl 20, but you can not ignore, that a loss somewhere is also a gain somewhere else, no matter what you consider it to be. You mentioned it yourself, Aura of Protection, Extra Attack… And yes, now we have a de facto paladin and sorcerer, who can do smites up to lvl 9. Or you could also sacrifice that 9th level spell slot for a dip in Warlock and Pact of the Blade. There is your SAD Paladin with lvl 8 smites and using CHA for attacks.
And for the record, I never said that a GISH sorcer HAS TO HAVE smites. It was an option. And Wrathful at least is obtainable already.
On a side note, when the new FR campaign setting will be released it will most likely contain the Bladesinger. Than we‘ve got a INT SAD GISH with CME and whatever on top, which might compete with the Valour Bard in that department. Yes, CME is not a smite, but damage-wise especially when upcast it is more than close.
A wizard subclass that competes with a bard subclass is fine. A Sorcerer subclass that would out smite the Paladin class is bad. It would get its smites earlier and they would be stronger.
You example of a Paladin/Sorcerers multiclasss is what players should do if they want to smite as a Sorcerer. It is not justification to give a Sorcerer subclass smites. If we get a Sorcerer Subclass that is similar to Bladesinger and Valor Bard that would be fine. That is literally what you said you didn’t want.
A gish Sorcerer Subclass should have a more creative way to improve martial prowess than extra attack at lvl 6. It should be heavily related to his lore and flavour.
smite like attacks would be a good option. A different way to add another weapon attack would be nessesary too. Maybe some kind of Deja Vu attack for a Time Sorcerer. Create illusion which make weapon attacks for an Illusion Sorcery... Idk. Stuff like that.
Here a Gish sorcerer that is not a Gish at all really.
Arcane Warrior
3rd Arcane Warrior Spells
3rd Arcane Blade
When you cast Flame Blade you can cast it with a spell slot as normal or cast it with Sorcery points by expending a number equal to the level at which you want to cast the spell. You may only expend Sorcery points up to a number equal to half your level rounded up. When you use Sorcery Points to cast Flame Blade its duration is 1 minute and it has the following benefits.
3rd Warrior’s Blood
When you complete a short or long rest you can roll a number of d6 equal to your sorcerer level and gain temporary hit points equal to the result. Additionally when you cast Arcane Vigor you gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the hit points restored by the spell.
6th Swift Blade
When you use a Magic Action to attack with Flame Blade you may make a second attack with the Blade as part of the same Action. If you hit with this second attack you only roll half the damage die rounded down.
14th Arcane Shields
When you cast Shield you gain 1d4+5 to your AC and if you are hit before the start of your next turn you regain the spell slot. Additionally when you cast Fire Shield you can choose the resistance and damage type separately, and can choose from Acid,Cold, Fire, Lightning, Necrotic, Poison, Radiant, or Thunder.
18th Arcane Blade Master
Anytime you hit with Flame Blade you can choose the damage type and you can choose any damage type. Additionally, once on your turn when you hit with Flame Blade you may use your bonus action to expend a spell slot and add 1d6+1d6 per spell slot level additional damage of the same type as Flame Blade.
No! Scatterbrand said that, not myself. See below:
Now about your Arcane Warrior subclass. Why can‘t Thunder be chosen for the Flame Blade, but Radiant? Radiant btw. outclasses the damage types regarding reliability, as it is mostly resisted by creatures you will find the least as adversaries. That‘s like the Transmuters ‚Philosopher Stone‘ (or however it was called) and the bonus to CON saves outclassing all other options. If one choice is clearly better than the others, there is no choice.
Since you set no limit on the sorcery points able to spent on an FB per level. a sorcerer of lower level can simply sacrifice spell slots to acquire a 9th level 10d6 (radiant) flame blade via sorcery points. No problem at Tier 2 already.
Your level 18 feature basically is a 2014 smite. Yes, it‘s d6s instead of d8s, but much like the Eldritch Smite it comes without the need to spend a bonus action. And the Warlock has a limited amount of spell slots on top, compared to the Sorcerer. Plus now you have a Flame Blade, which might have been upcast already to 10d6+Cha damage per hit, and you throw your 9th lvl spell slot to add another 10d6 damage to a hit. That‘s 20d6, another 19d6+Cha/2 on the second hit (all radiant), and with the bonus action still available to cast a quickened chromatic orb.
How does this not outshine a Paladin?
Further, why not „Warrior Sorcery“ or similar, as every subclass now is called something with ‚Sorcery‘, like every subclass in 2014 was containing the word „bloodline“.
Scatter wrote his post and then you replied, “ I do very much agree.” I don’t see a reason why I need to copy paste or quote previously stated things. You either very much agree with scatter or you don’t. I really don’t care either way.
As for the Arcane Warrior the Arcane Blade feature does state you can only expend Sorcery points up to half your level rounded up. So you couldn’t just cast Flame Blade at a higher level. The highest level a full sorcerer could cast it at. Would be the same as their highest level spell slot. The typo is it’s supposed to read half your level in this class. So as I wrote it you could be a level 9 sorcerer/8 non caster or half caster and still be able to use sorcery points to cast level 9 flame blade. This is a mistake and is fixed by adding “in this class” or “half your sorcerer leve; rounded up.”
Why no thunder, because I think a fire that does thunder damage is stupid. No other reason. I almost left poison off the list also. As far as damage types being better than others it’s objectively false. They don’t matter. Damage type is mostly flavor unless you are playing in prewritten adventures. All that matters is can you do full damage or is it resisted. Occasionally something is vulnerable, but the DM decides all of this. Honestly the way 2024 is written I could have just said you can make force damage and been done with it.
My 18th level ability is just smite, but it offers nothing but more dice rolls at a lower sized dice. You don’t get it til the Paladin has gotten to play with all of their different kind of smites. Also you have to use your bonus action to use this feature just like smite spells so it’s limited to once on your turn. That also means you aren’t using your bonus action to quicken a spell, which in many cases would be the objectively better option. Also you missed that the second attack only allows you to roll half the damage dice. So if your first attack is 10d6+5, your second would only be 5d6+5.
This was made as an example that is not like a bladesinger, but doesn’t poop all over the Paladin or other Martial classes. It’s a melee subclass, but isn’t a Gish. It’s uses the sorcerer resources to stay in melee. It relies on mage armor and shield to remain in the frontline. The flaws I see looking at it now is that I missed noting it should be sorcerer level for Arcane blade. It probably needs wording to stop it from multiclassing to get heavy armor and a shield. Maybe capping the capstone to only 5th level or lower spell slots. Considering I made this up in an hour while half sleep I’m shocked it’s not worse.
For clarification, I agree that a solution other than a Valour Bard/Bladesinger copy would be very welcome. Neither did I say „It has to be“, nor did I say „I insist on a sorcerer Gish getting smites. I said, I don‘t see a reason why this option is not viable, especially if it‘s only one, or two smite spells, and not the whole arsenal, and of course not the signature spell, Divine Smite. But Thunderous Smite, why not? Hey, Clerics now got some Paladin spells like Aura of Vitality. Does this also count as „pooping all over the paladin“?
Uhuh, fire that does thunder damage is stupid. But fire that does cold/lightning/poison/necrotic damage is fine? Please expand.
Regarding the second attack, I wrote 19d6+CHA/2. ‚/2‘ means ‚divided by 2‘.
Other than that this is a pretty boring subclass, mechanical-wise. No synergies. Just some beefed up spells.