Just saying... Those who want overpowered are crying about it not being. Those who wanted it nerfed are crying cause it still too strong and those not caring because new stuff are ok as it is reguardless of what it is...
Just saying...
Rock cries the paper is op, the paper says forget the rock... The scissors are too op and the scissors yells NERF THE ROCK !
there is no way to please everyone. So if your not happy... Then create your own, point final.
As for me... I think this iteration is much better then both previous incarnations. I like the fact this version is much more in line with 3rd edition and i think this is what keith baker wanted. After all he was part of the creation of the last version and this one.
Me love this one and i will definitely create myself an artificer.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Just saying... Those who want overpowered are crying about it not being. Those who wanted it nerfed are crying cause it still too strong and those not caring because new stuff are ok as it is reguardless of what it is...
Just saying...
Rock cries the paper is op, the paper says forget the rock... The scissors are too op and the scissors yells NERF THE ROCK !
there is no way to please everyone. So if your not happy... Then create your own, point final.
As for me... I think this iteration is much better then both previous incarnations. I like the fact this version is much more in line with 3rd edition and i think this is what keith baker wanted. After all he was part of the creation of the last version and this one.
Me love this one and i will definitely create myself an artificer.
Happy 1000th post :P
To stay on topic, though... To me, a bit of a missed opportunity is spellcasting. They could've gone bold and make Artificer a full caster, BUT make the class the first, and possibly only, Vancian caster (on the basis that an Artificer creates little items and gizmos on a long rest, each having an effect of a spell, and therefore would need to be chosen beforehand).
But I know I'm in a definite minority, if not outright alone, in that belief, so I'll just homebrew it someday to test out.
Vancian magic has never been good. And here, say it with me now errybuddy, let's make sure Paladin can hear it nice and loud.
**** Third Edition.
That said, I believe the intent behind making artificers half-casters, beyond the simple fact that they've never been full casters before, is that "has magic items" is supposed to be the other half. This is the only class that can (partially) give the DM the middle finger and say "to Hell with your loot tables and your shitty random rolls, I want this thing, so I'm gonna bloody MAKE this thing, and you can't stop me short of banning the class from your game." There's potentially power there, though the class was nerfed hard enough that it's going to take a clever player and a DM willing to play ball to bring it out. If you are/have those things, there's a ton of fun to be had with the artificer.
(as a side tip, never ever ever ever compare anything to hexblade, that is notoriously overpowered as hell)
The Hexblade is not overpowered. If it was, WotC would NEVER have let it out of UA. The proof is everthing else they nerfed from UA . . . :P
I mean that would assume the WotC are omniscient. EG the over nerf of Alchemist is proof they don’t have a 100% perfect track record.
In Hexblade I do believe they made a mistake or posted a class that they allow to be for the power gamer or due to their strange balance mechanics where they assume 8+ combats per day which is just not how the average group ended up playing.
But as long as that remains the highbar rather than the target bar then it is okay. Hexblade does 4*(d10+d6+5+6)=80 damage per turn with two BA ramp (66 first turn) and gets all of those toys at level 2. A standard fighter does 4*(2d6+5)=48 damage per turn with no ramp. While a Artillerist does 4d10+d8+6d8=53.5 damage per turn (not really counting the MA set up turn as turrets last an hour so likely will be ready unless surprised). This falls nicely in the good target of 50 damage per turn.
(as a side tip, never ever ever ever compare anything to hexblade, that is notoriously overpowered as hell)
The Hexblade is not overpowered. If it was, WotC would NEVER have let it out of UA. The proof is everthing else they nerfed from UA . . . :P
I mean that would assume the WotC are omniscient. EG the over nerf of Alchemist is proof they don’t have a 100% perfect track record.
In Hexblade I do believe they made a mistake or posted a class that they allow to be for the power gamer or due to their strange balance mechanics where they assume 8+ combats per day which is just not how the average group ended up playing.
But as long as that remains the highbar rather than the target bar then it is okay. Hexblade does 4*(d10+d6+5+6)=80 damage per turn with two BA ramp (66 first turn) and gets all of those toys at level 2. A standard fighter does 4*(2d6+5)=48 damage per turn with no ramp. While a Artillerist does 4d10+d8+6d8=53.5 damage per turn (not really counting the MA set up turn as turrets last an hour so likely will be ready unless surprised). This falls nicely in the good target of 50 damage per turn.
Ever one of the never articles of new materials was playtested via UA. They took a survey. But they NEVER showed us a preview of the finalized material. The only way to prevview it before buying is to go to a physical store once it is released and phyically preview it, then decide if it is worth your money.
I have preodered several books for 5E through DDB. U&ntil I took the good with the bad. But what they did to the WGtE in conjunction with the new book is disgusting, and possibly illegal. Will I order future 5E materials through DDB, probably if I continue playing 5E period. My group is seriously considering gong back to Pathfinder 1. If I do buy addition materials, I will NEVER, EVER pre-order Source book materials unless I get the option tp preview the material before purchasing. Modules are different and I wouldn't think twice about pre-ordering those.
WotC is proving themselves, through their own actions, to be, IMO, a organisation who engages in criminal actives, Bait & Switch takes, theft, and blackmail.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
From day one when Wayfarer's Guide was first made available, they stated that it was a living document and subject to being updated and would not be a finalized product until much later. You paid for Early Access and now you're upset that the finished product is different. The finished product is always different. You not understanding that doesn't make it bait & switch or theft.
I have no idea how you got blackmail out of that. Did WotC threaten to release evidence of you doing something embarrassing if you didn't buy something?
@Mergon, would you mind explaining which specific changes are most contentious to you? And I presume this is related to the Character build feature of DDB? That’s the only thing forcing you to use the new rules, but often there is a way around to adjust your numbers.
WotC has kinda always been like that. I eventually just stopped enjoying MtG because I couldn’t afford the massive price tag every three months. Just remember, they are a business. As any business major in the world could tell you, their #1 priority is and will always be to make money for their shareholders.
@Mergon, would you mind explaining which specific changes are most contentious to you? And I presume this is related to the Character build feature of DDB? That’s the only thing forcing you to use the new rules, but often there is a way around to adjust your numbers.
Specifically the racial changes. These changes mean that what we have been playing in my 2 Eberon campaign can not be changed without being forced to use the new versions. None of my players are happy about it, and I am royally peeved.
What good is a character builder when you cannot continue using purchased material they have provided access to only to have it taken away. It wasn't UA material but material we purchased and had been playing sicne it came out.
I have reduced my characters on DDB to under 6, deleted the 3 campaigns I had set up, and discontinued my paid subscription. DDB is of next to use to me now for the campaigns I was running. I will go back to Hero Lab as my builder. As a reference source, I'll still use DDB, especially for modules. Being able to open modules in tabs is a godsend, but I can't trust the Character Builder because if WotC wants a change made, no matter what the customers want, it will be changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
WotC has kinda always been like that. I eventually just stopped enjoying MtG because I couldn’t afford the massive price tag every three months. Just remember, they are a business. As any business major in the world could tell you, their #1 priority is and will always be to make money for their shareholders.
I thought they gotten better sicne the Farce of 4E. I've been happy with 5E for the most part sicne it came out and we switched back to D&D from Pathfinder. Until now.
Both my campaign groups are talking about going back to Pathfinder. Their Community Pack contains a great deal of Eberron materials, including an Artificer class.
I spent a great deal of money on DBB, and thus WortC. I bought the Legendary Bundle after hearing about DDB on a Nerdarchy video. I have bought a great deal of modules, and all sources, pre-orderign most, except of the Ravnica book (just not interested)
I will miss D&D if I go back to Parthfinder, but at least I don't have to worry about Paizo being as trecherous as WotC.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I hope that this is the last time they pull something like this. They have UA, and are charging us to get some UA and some lore that already exists in older books, as well as a handful of magic items. It is disappointing.
I think it is a bad idea to view it in this way. Sure the nerfs may disappoint you but we DID get to play with these toys one year early, and lots of DRAFT lore. I am not sure what you expected in the official Eberron book after WGtE. If many people make this complaint we won’t see any drafts or any features from spelljammer or darksun for many years...
On the Race changes @Mergon again if you can be specific which race I can perhaps help find a workaround.
1. WGtE always had “This is a living document, and as these concepts are refined, this book will also be updated for free“ the only issue is expecting these races to be somehow a different set than those in the official book.
2. The only race I can see that got significantly changed or nerfed is Warforged, however the maths is identical if not better. Take light armor: 11+Dex+Prof ranges from 13+Dex to 17+Dex, where now +1AR and magic armors ranges from 14+Dex to 17+Dex, so just give your players the appropriate magic +2/+3 armor they need to remain the same AC.
3. If some of the spells or skill changes are of concern feel free to give your players free skills, that is a feature of core DnD in downtime and a feature allowed in DnD Beyond, I even think +4 Armor is possible, so feel free to use those tools to edit your live races to closer match you previous prebuilds.
Magic armor is extremely rare, Arutha. DMs almost never give out any armor beyond basic +1, and even basic +1 can take into mid-levels or later to get the average party equipped much of the time. The random loot tables pretty much never give out armor, and what armor does show up tends to be bitterly contested in a party starved for defenses.
The UA Integrated Protection allowed a player to sidestep all that. They had reliable, powerful armor that let them feel like a well-protected war machine without having to rely on managing to snake the one +2 armor drop a PC group will get across an entire 1-20 campaign to do so, and it also felt like an interesting trick unique to warforged - these guys are so suited to war, their protection so much a part of them, that they can extract performance from ordinary wood or steel that a flesh-and-blood warrior has to find legendary-level armor to match.
I know most of my group sees the Rising racial changes as brutal nerfs to most of the UA species. To be fair, the UA species kinda needed it, they were hugely overloaded. But we were also told that existing characters would be able to retain the UA specs going into the future, which is no longer true. I can understand the anger at your badass, my-armor-is-me warforged whose body was all the protection he needed suddenly needing to locate +3 platemail to match what he was doing before the game shoved a spanner in his waste vents. Even if that very same requirement points out why the feature needed changing.
Well you do see Yurei as you say in the last line that sidestepping legendary armor finding had to be nerfed. But you kind of mixed up my language, what I am saying is:
If you are a DM that used to play with and were okay with +Proficiency Intergated Plating and want to continue your game without nerfing the Warforged Player then Give them a free +3 Armor that only they can wear. “One evening you feel different, some gears whirl and you realise that your armor plating can now be detached, and it is one of the hardest Metals ever seen by the Blacksmith. However (just for fun RP) your Artificer can’t survive 24 hours without his armor plating as his core is underdeveloped.”
My point is DnDBeyond is flexible enough and nothing was destroyed just because this book was released. DM is synonymous with All-powerful God.
I think it is a bad idea to view it in this way. Sure the nerfs may disappoint you but we DID get to play with these toys one year early, and lots of DRAFT lore. I am not sure what you expected in the official Eberron book after WGtE. If many people make this complaint we won’t see any drafts or any features from spelljammer or darksun for many years...
On the Race changes @Mergon again if you can be specific which race I can perhaps help find a workaround.
1. WGtE always had “This is a living document, and as these concepts are refined, this book will also be updated for free“ the only issue is expecting these races to be somehow a different set than those in the official book.
2. The only race I can see that got significantly changed or nerfed is Warforged, however the maths is identical if not better. Take light armor: 11+Dex+Prof ranges from 13+Dex to 17+Dex, where now +1AR and magic armors ranges from 14+Dex to 17+Dex, so just give your players the appropriate magic +2/+3 armor they need to remain the same AC.
3. If some of the spells or skill changes are of concern feel free to give your players free skills, that is a feature of core DnD in downtime and a feature allowed in DnD Beyond, I even think +4 Armor is possible, so feel free to use those tools to edit your live races to closer match you previous prebuilds.
Tyhe pdf I purchased has no such declaration in it. Obviously, they added it after the fact to cover their asses.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I looked at page 4 in the pdf and compared it to that on DDB. They are different. The pdf doesn't mention anything about Living Document. The wording is definitely different.
I tried to copy/pqaste the text of the pdf into this post with no luck. It is filled with strange formating information. Same happens when I try to concert the pdf to a word document :(
I can't attack a pdf or an image making it impossible to share the single page . . .
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I'm looking at my copy that I downloaded back in March and it's right there. Last paragraph before "Welcome to Eberron: let's explore!" I put the relevant part in bold.
Bear in mind: this book presents my current vision of Eberron. This is the world I run at my own table and the way that I’ve converted its ideas to fifth edition. The game mechanics are usable in your campaign, but at this time they aren't officially part of the game and aren't permitted in D&D Adventurers League events. These mechanics will evolve based on player feedback. This is a living document, and as these concepts are refined, this book will also be updated for free—so you will be kept up to date with any changes that are made to it. Beyond that, Eberron is your world as much as it is mine. I hope that this book provides you with inspiration, but don’t be limited by these ideas or decisions. Think of this as something you can build upon, not a codex of absolute law.
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Just saying... Those who want overpowered are crying about it not being. Those who wanted it nerfed are crying cause it still too strong and those not caring because new stuff are ok as it is reguardless of what it is...
Just saying...
Rock cries the paper is op, the paper says forget the rock... The scissors are too op and the scissors yells NERF THE ROCK !
there is no way to please everyone. So if your not happy... Then create your own, point final.
As for me... I think this iteration is much better then both previous incarnations. I like the fact this version is much more in line with 3rd edition and i think this is what keith baker wanted. After all he was part of the creation of the last version and this one.
Me love this one and i will definitely create myself an artificer.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Happy 1000th post :P
To stay on topic, though... To me, a bit of a missed opportunity is spellcasting. They could've gone bold and make Artificer a full caster, BUT make the class the first, and possibly only, Vancian caster (on the basis that an Artificer creates little items and gizmos on a long rest, each having an effect of a spell, and therefore would need to be chosen beforehand).
But I know I'm in a definite minority, if not outright alone, in that belief, so I'll just homebrew it someday to test out.
Multiclass Warlock enthusiast.
Vancian magic has never been good. And here, say it with me now errybuddy, let's make sure Paladin can hear it nice and loud.
**** Third Edition.
That said, I believe the intent behind making artificers half-casters, beyond the simple fact that they've never been full casters before, is that "has magic items" is supposed to be the other half. This is the only class that can (partially) give the DM the middle finger and say "to Hell with your loot tables and your shitty random rolls, I want this thing, so I'm gonna bloody MAKE this thing, and you can't stop me short of banning the class from your game." There's potentially power there, though the class was nerfed hard enough that it's going to take a clever player and a DM willing to play ball to bring it out. If you are/have those things, there's a ton of fun to be had with the artificer.
If not? Maybe stick to PHB classes.
Please do not contact or message me.
The Hexblade is not overpowered. If it was, WotC would NEVER have let it out of UA. The proof is everthing else they nerfed from UA . . . :P
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I mean that would assume the WotC are omniscient. EG the over nerf of Alchemist is proof they don’t have a 100% perfect track record.
In Hexblade I do believe they made a mistake or posted a class that they allow to be for the power gamer or due to their strange balance mechanics where they assume 8+ combats per day which is just not how the average group ended up playing.
But as long as that remains the highbar rather than the target bar then it is okay. Hexblade does 4*(d10+d6+5+6)=80 damage per turn with two BA ramp (66 first turn) and gets all of those toys at level 2. A standard fighter does 4*(2d6+5)=48 damage per turn with no ramp. While a Artillerist does 4d10+d8+6d8=53.5 damage per turn (not really counting the MA set up turn as turrets last an hour so likely will be ready unless surprised). This falls nicely in the good target of 50 damage per turn.
Vancian Magic is directly worse than prepared spells, I would rather they not give it there.
And comparing anything to hexblade is a bad idea, again, that is a high bar, making that the goal would lead to power creep.
Ever one of the never articles of new materials was playtested via UA. They took a survey. But they NEVER showed us a preview of the finalized material. The only way to prevview it before buying is to go to a physical store once it is released and phyically preview it, then decide if it is worth your money.
I have preodered several books for 5E through DDB. U&ntil I took the good with the bad. But what they did to the WGtE in conjunction with the new book is disgusting, and possibly illegal. Will I order future 5E materials through DDB, probably if I continue playing 5E period. My group is seriously considering gong back to Pathfinder 1. If I do buy addition materials, I will NEVER, EVER pre-order Source book materials unless I get the option tp preview the material before purchasing. Modules are different and I wouldn't think twice about pre-ordering those.
WotC is proving themselves, through their own actions, to be, IMO, a organisation who engages in criminal actives, Bait & Switch takes, theft, and blackmail.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
It's not illegal or even shady.
From day one when Wayfarer's Guide was first made available, they stated that it was a living document and subject to being updated and would not be a finalized product until much later. You paid for Early Access and now you're upset that the finished product is different. The finished product is always different. You not understanding that doesn't make it bait & switch or theft.
I have no idea how you got blackmail out of that. Did WotC threaten to release evidence of you doing something embarrassing if you didn't buy something?
@Mergon, would you mind explaining which specific changes are most contentious to you? And I presume this is related to the Character build feature of DDB? That’s the only thing forcing you to use the new rules, but often there is a way around to adjust your numbers.
WotC has kinda always been like that. I eventually just stopped enjoying MtG because I couldn’t afford the massive price tag every three months. Just remember, they are a business. As any business major in the world could tell you, their #1 priority is and will always be to make money for their shareholders.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Specifically the racial changes. These changes mean that what we have been playing in my 2 Eberon campaign can not be changed without being forced to use the new versions. None of my players are happy about it, and I am royally peeved.
What good is a character builder when you cannot continue using purchased material they have provided access to only to have it taken away. It wasn't UA material but material we purchased and had been playing sicne it came out.
I have reduced my characters on DDB to under 6, deleted the 3 campaigns I had set up, and discontinued my paid subscription. DDB is of next to use to me now for the campaigns I was running. I will go back to Hero Lab as my builder. As a reference source, I'll still use DDB, especially for modules. Being able to open modules in tabs is a godsend, but I can't trust the Character Builder because if WotC wants a change made, no matter what the customers want, it will be changed.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I thought they gotten better sicne the Farce of 4E. I've been happy with 5E for the most part sicne it came out and we switched back to D&D from Pathfinder. Until now.
Both my campaign groups are talking about going back to Pathfinder. Their Community Pack contains a great deal of Eberron materials, including an Artificer class.
I spent a great deal of money on DBB, and thus WortC. I bought the Legendary Bundle after hearing about DDB on a Nerdarchy video. I have bought a great deal of modules, and all sources, pre-orderign most, except of the Ravnica book (just not interested)
I will miss D&D if I go back to Parthfinder, but at least I don't have to worry about Paizo being as trecherous as WotC.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I hope that this is the last time they pull something like this. They have UA, and are charging us to get some UA and some lore that already exists in older books, as well as a handful of magic items. It is disappointing.
I think it is a bad idea to view it in this way. Sure the nerfs may disappoint you but we DID get to play with these toys one year early, and lots of DRAFT lore. I am not sure what you expected in the official Eberron book after WGtE. If many people make this complaint we won’t see any drafts or any features from spelljammer or darksun for many years...
On the Race changes @Mergon again if you can be specific which race I can perhaps help find a workaround.
1. WGtE always had “This is a living document, and as these concepts are refined, this book will also be updated for free“ the only issue is expecting these races to be somehow a different set than those in the official book.
2. The only race I can see that got significantly changed or nerfed is Warforged, however the maths is identical if not better. Take light armor: 11+Dex+Prof ranges from 13+Dex to 17+Dex, where now +1AR and magic armors ranges from 14+Dex to 17+Dex, so just give your players the appropriate magic +2/+3 armor they need to remain the same AC.
3. If some of the spells or skill changes are of concern feel free to give your players free skills, that is a feature of core DnD in downtime and a feature allowed in DnD Beyond, I even think +4 Armor is possible, so feel free to use those tools to edit your live races to closer match you previous prebuilds.
Magic armor is extremely rare, Arutha. DMs almost never give out any armor beyond basic +1, and even basic +1 can take into mid-levels or later to get the average party equipped much of the time. The random loot tables pretty much never give out armor, and what armor does show up tends to be bitterly contested in a party starved for defenses.
The UA Integrated Protection allowed a player to sidestep all that. They had reliable, powerful armor that let them feel like a well-protected war machine without having to rely on managing to snake the one +2 armor drop a PC group will get across an entire 1-20 campaign to do so, and it also felt like an interesting trick unique to warforged - these guys are so suited to war, their protection so much a part of them, that they can extract performance from ordinary wood or steel that a flesh-and-blood warrior has to find legendary-level armor to match.
I know most of my group sees the Rising racial changes as brutal nerfs to most of the UA species. To be fair, the UA species kinda needed it, they were hugely overloaded. But we were also told that existing characters would be able to retain the UA specs going into the future, which is no longer true. I can understand the anger at your badass, my-armor-is-me warforged whose body was all the protection he needed suddenly needing to locate +3 platemail to match what he was doing before the game shoved a spanner in his waste vents. Even if that very same requirement points out why the feature needed changing.
Please do not contact or message me.
Well you do see Yurei as you say in the last line that sidestepping legendary armor finding had to be nerfed. But you kind of mixed up my language, what I am saying is:
If you are a DM that used to play with and were okay with +Proficiency Intergated Plating and want to continue your game without nerfing the Warforged Player then Give them a free +3 Armor that only they can wear. “One evening you feel different, some gears whirl and you realise that your armor plating can now be detached, and it is one of the hardest Metals ever seen by the Blacksmith. However (just for fun RP) your Artificer can’t survive 24 hours without his armor plating as his core is underdeveloped.”
My point is DnDBeyond is flexible enough and nothing was destroyed just because this book was released. DM is synonymous with All-powerful God.
Tyhe pdf I purchased has no such declaration in it. Obviously, they added it after the fact to cover their asses.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Are you certain? It’s in the Keith Baker introduction page 4.
I looked at page 4 in the pdf and compared it to that on DDB. They are different. The pdf doesn't mention anything about Living Document. The wording is definitely different.
I tried to copy/pqaste the text of the pdf into this post with no luck. It is filled with strange formating information. Same happens when I try to concert the pdf to a word document :(
I can't attack a pdf or an image making it impossible to share the single page . . .
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I'm looking at my copy that I downloaded back in March and it's right there. Last paragraph before "Welcome to Eberron: let's explore!" I put the relevant part in bold.
Bear in mind: this book presents my current
vision of Eberron. This is the world I run at
my own table and the way that I’ve converted
its ideas to fifth edition. The game mechanics
are usable in your campaign, but at this time
they aren't officially part of the game and aren't
permitted in D&D Adventurers League events.
These mechanics will evolve based on player
feedback. This is a living document, and as
these concepts are refined, this book will also be
updated for free—so you will be kept up to date
with any changes that are made to it. Beyond
that, Eberron is your world as much as it is
mine. I hope that this book provides you with
inspiration, but don’t be limited by these ideas
or decisions. Think of this as something you can
build upon, not a codex of absolute law.