I've got a player that wants to do an artificer/gunslinger multi-class. I'm trying to decide if repeating shot infusion negates the need for reloading a firearm. Game fluff wise, I can see the argument that since it no longer requires ammunition, it should no longer require reloading.
Example: warforged dex based fighter with 2 levels of artificer can have insane AC by using a pistol and shield. The hand mortar or bad news would also be capable of crazy damage, as this would effectively double their fire rate. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Justinlf84/characters/12976899
Potential balance option: repeating shot weapons have their misfire score increased by 1, which is also simple to explain in game mechanics, they just weren't designed to fire that fast.
I would let it negate reload property, and I wouldn't bother adjusting misfire. You get to decide the availability and crafting requirements of those firearms, so they shouldn't be a problem for a while.
I've got a player that wants to do an artificer/gunslinger multi-class. I'm trying to decide if repeating shot infusion negates the need for reloading a firearm. Game fluff wise, I can see the argument that since it no longer requires ammunition, it should no longer require reloading.
Example: warforged dex based fighter with 2 levels of artificer can have insane AC by using a pistol and shield. The hand mortar or bad news would also be capable of crazy damage, as this would effectively double their fire rate. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Justinlf84/characters/12976899
Potential balance option: repeating shot weapons have their misfire score increased by 1, which is also simple to explain in game mechanics, they just weren't designed to fire that fast.
As others have said before me, have the infusion itself just negate the reload property and nothing else. I think the bigger issue is how it would interact with firearms that have special weapon properties like the Gunslinger's hand mortar or Bad News. I would argue that since the magic of the infusion itself is generating the ammunition being used in the firearm, then those firearms would only be shooting the most generic damage possible for them.
IOW, a repeating shot hand mortar or a repeating shot Bad News would not be firing explosive rounds. They would still do their normal die damage, they just wouldn't have the explosive property applied to each shot.
Put it another way, the infusion itself would negate the reload property and essentially any other weapon property on a firearm that affects the kind of damage the firearm makes with each shot.
I can't seem to apply Repeating Shot to a Blunderbuss. Anyone know why? The newer weapons with the misfire rule don't seem to show up on the list of Infusible weapons.
I can't seem to apply Repeating Shot to a Blunderbuss. Anyone know why? The newer weapons with the misfire rule don't seem to show up on the list of Infusible weapons.
The requirements for the Repeating Shot infusion are stated on it:
A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property
The blunderbuss does not have the ammunition weapon property.
I see, thanks for the speedy reply. My Artificer is just getting started (creeping up on level 3). So to clarify further:
At the bottom of the Blunderbuss stat block is:
Ammunition All firearms require ammunition to make an attack, and due to their rare nature, ammunition may be near impossible to find or purchase. However, if materials are gathered, you can craft ammunition yourself using your Tinker’s Tools at half the cost. Each firearm uses its own unique ammunition and is generally sold or crafted in batches listed below next to the price.
So I understand that it needs ammunition but doesn't have the Property Ammunition (weird, but RAW). Explosive is explained in that stat block too, but the Blunderbuss doesn't seem to have that Property either (like a Hand Mortar does). All the Properties are italicized and followed by a period, except the word Ammunition, so I thought ammo might now behave differently (after all, Blunderbuss is Type: Firearms Ranged Weapon, and "All firearms require ammunition.") In the case of Reload. and Misfire., the Stat Block is explaining Properties that the Blunderbuss has. Explosive. and Ammunition, it apparently doesn't.
So, a Blunderbuss uses ammunition (that I can tinker or maybe buy and have to reload), but doesn't have the Ammunition Property. One doesn't load it (no Loading Property), but must reload it (also weird, but RAW).
Does that mean none of "new" firearms (with Reload. and Misfire.) can be used with the Repeating Shot Infusion; I can Infuse Repeating Shot on a musket, but not a musket (Exandria) which can misfire?
If the "new" firearm rules "replace the optional ones presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide" (from Blunderbuss stat block) it seems weird for the only firearms able to be Infused with Repeating Shot are the ones whose rules have just been replaced!
I have been imagining the Misfire rules as a way to keep firearms balanced (a Blunderbuss does great close-range damage but has a 10% chance of breaking when I fire it, so it feels very Tinker-y and Artificer-y). It seems that we can only have Repeating Shot on weapons that can't Misfire, ones from before the new firearm rules were crafted. Works for me, but seems odd.
Keep in mind that the Fire Arms rules presented in the Gunslinger subclass is not official or supported by WotC and don't exactly fit within official rules published in the DMG. You kind of have to pick one rule set or the other.
Keep in mind that the Fire Arms rules presented in the Gunslinger subclass is not official or supported by WotC and don't exactly fit within official rules published in the DMG. You kind of have to pick one rule set or the other.
I guess that's my core confusion, thanks. Given that my Artificer is proficient in Firearms (and my DM encouraged me to build a weapon my Gnome calls The Fire-Harm), I'm unsure which Firearm rules to follow. If the Misfire. and Reload. Properties are both for UA or the like, it seems weird to upgrade the rules (in a way that makes firearms more balanced and less reliable) but prohibit their official use. I'm going to pitch the idea of erring on the side of balance. I want my Fire-Harm to Misfire from time to time! Wouldn't feel tinkered if not! Thanks.
Off hand. I've been considering Alchemist + the gunner from the new Tides of Bildgewater crossover 3rd party supplement. I feel like that one would fit in better with things as presented
Keep in mind that the Fire Arms rules presented in the Gunslinger subclass is not official or supported by WotC and don't exactly fit within official rules published in the DMG. You kind of have to pick one rule set or the other.
I guess that's my core confusion, thanks. Given that my Artificer is proficient in Firearms (and my DM encouraged me to build a weapon my Gnome calls The Fire-Harm), I'm unsure which Firearm rules to follow. If the Misfire. and Reload. Properties are both for UA or the like, it seems weird to upgrade the rules (in a way that makes firearms more balanced and less reliable) but prohibit their official use. I'm going to pitch the idea of erring on the side of balance. I want my Fire-Harm to Misfire from time to time! Wouldn't feel tinkered if not! Thanks.
Just to clarify, those rules are not from WotC and they are not UA. They were released by Matt Mercer separately. D&D Beyond just have them up to support Critical Role. Think of them as even less official than UA and will never be referenced in any official publication. (Though many DMs allow them and they would make great sense for a tinkered Fire-Harm)
For future reference, look at the requirement for Repeating Shot. A Simple or Martial Weapon with the Ammunition property. Look at all of the firearms. They are all Firearm weapons. Unlike, say, a crossbow which is a Simple or Martial weapon (depending on the version).
None of the Artificer Infusions work on Firearms. This is, I think, a reasonable nod toward some balance. You want to use your Battle Smith's Battle Ready feature with a firearm? Cast Magic Weapon on it. You'll still need ammunition which the DM has more control over than the relatively simple to make Arrow, Bolt and especially Stone that the Simple and Martial ranged weapons use.
If the DM wants to allow them to work on Firearms, that is of course fine--but this gives them the opportunity to say no more easily if they feel it's going to unbalance things. I'm running a modern, post-apocalypse game with modern Firearms. I do NOT want the Artificer having unlimited ammo, especially with semi automatic and automatic weapons that fire multiple bullets for a more damaging attack.
I think having an infused Pistol or Musket probably won't unbalance things much in the scheme of things. And if your campaign lets everyone use guns and ammo isn't a big deal, then it won't have an appreciable impact to allow infused Hunting Rifles and Automatic Rifles.
The firearms in the DMG are all martial ranged weapons, it's only the gunslinger ones that do not fall into the normal distinctions. Pistol and musket should work with loading shot so long as the DM allows the weapons in the world. Higher tech weapons all have reload instead of loading, so it will be up to the DM whether the infusion affects weapons that can carry multiple shots.
For future reference, look at the requirement for Repeating Shot. A Simple or Martial Weapon with the Ammunition property. Look at all of the firearms. They are all Firearm weapons. Unlike, say, a crossbow which is a Simple or Martial weapon (depending on the version).
Double check the DMG. There isn't a single firearm that isn't a martial ranged weapon with the ammunition property.
Critical role uses a house rule that replaces the rules in the DMG. This is relevant to the 2019 OP and 2020 necro, but not the 2021 necro (it might have still been UA in 2019).
I can't seem to apply Repeating Shot to a Blunderbuss. Anyone know why? The newer weapons with the misfire rule don't seem to show up on the list of Infusible weapons.
The requirements for the Repeating Shot infusion are stated on it:
A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property
The [Tooltip Not Found] does not have the ammunition weapon property.
That seems like an Oversight that should be corrected.
I can't seem to apply Repeating Shot to a Blunderbuss. Anyone know why? The newer weapons with the misfire rule don't seem to show up on the list of Infusible weapons.
The requirements for the Repeating Shot infusion are stated on it:
A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property
The blunderbuss does not have the ammunition weapon property.
That seems like an Oversight that should be corrected.
Critical role uses a house rule that replaces the rules in the DMG. This is relevant to the 2019 OP and 2020 necro, but not the 2021 necro (it might have still been UA in 2019).
And now it is also relevant to a 2022 necro.
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I've got a player that wants to do an artificer/gunslinger multi-class. I'm trying to decide if repeating shot infusion negates the need for reloading a firearm. Game fluff wise, I can see the argument that since it no longer requires ammunition, it should no longer require reloading.
Example: warforged dex based fighter with 2 levels of artificer can have insane AC by using a pistol and shield. The hand mortar or bad news would also be capable of crazy damage, as this would effectively double their fire rate. https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/Justinlf84/characters/12976899
Potential balance option: repeating shot weapons have their misfire score increased by 1, which is also simple to explain in game mechanics, they just weren't designed to fire that fast.
I would let it negate reload property, and I wouldn't bother adjusting misfire. You get to decide the availability and crafting requirements of those firearms, so they shouldn't be a problem for a while.
Yeah, just go as written, ignore the loading property and leave it at that.
As others have said before me, have the infusion itself just negate the reload property and nothing else. I think the bigger issue is how it would interact with firearms that have special weapon properties like the Gunslinger's hand mortar or Bad News. I would argue that since the magic of the infusion itself is generating the ammunition being used in the firearm, then those firearms would only be shooting the most generic damage possible for them.
IOW, a repeating shot hand mortar or a repeating shot Bad News would not be firing explosive rounds. They would still do their normal die damage, they just wouldn't have the explosive property applied to each shot.
Put it another way, the infusion itself would negate the reload property and essentially any other weapon property on a firearm that affects the kind of damage the firearm makes with each shot.
I can't seem to apply Repeating Shot to a Blunderbuss. Anyone know why? The newer weapons with the misfire rule don't seem to show up on the list of Infusible weapons.
The requirements for the Repeating Shot infusion are stated on it:
The blunderbuss does not have the ammunition weapon property.
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I see, thanks for the speedy reply. My Artificer is just getting started (creeping up on level 3). So to clarify further:
At the bottom of the Blunderbuss stat block is:
Ammunition
All firearms require ammunition to make an attack, and due to their rare nature, ammunition may be near impossible to find or purchase. However, if materials are gathered, you can craft ammunition yourself using your Tinker’s Tools at half the cost. Each firearm uses its own unique ammunition and is generally sold or crafted in batches listed below next to the price.
So I understand that it needs ammunition but doesn't have the Property Ammunition (weird, but RAW). Explosive is explained in that stat block too, but the Blunderbuss doesn't seem to have that Property either (like a Hand Mortar does). All the Properties are italicized and followed by a period, except the word Ammunition, so I thought ammo might now behave differently (after all, Blunderbuss is Type: Firearms Ranged Weapon, and "All firearms require ammunition.") In the case of Reload. and Misfire., the Stat Block is explaining Properties that the Blunderbuss has. Explosive. and Ammunition, it apparently doesn't.
So, a Blunderbuss uses ammunition (that I can tinker or maybe buy and have to reload), but doesn't have the Ammunition Property. One doesn't load it (no Loading Property), but must reload it (also weird, but RAW).
Does that mean none of "new" firearms (with Reload. and Misfire.) can be used with the Repeating Shot Infusion; I can Infuse Repeating Shot on a musket, but not a musket (Exandria) which can misfire?
If the "new" firearm rules "replace the optional ones presented in the Dungeon Master’s Guide" (from Blunderbuss stat block) it seems weird for the only firearms able to be Infused with Repeating Shot are the ones whose rules have just been replaced!
I have been imagining the Misfire rules as a way to keep firearms balanced (a Blunderbuss does great close-range damage but has a 10% chance of breaking when I fire it, so it feels very Tinker-y and Artificer-y). It seems that we can only have Repeating Shot on weapons that can't Misfire, ones from before the new firearm rules were crafted. Works for me, but seems odd.
Thanks again.
Keep in mind that the Fire Arms rules presented in the Gunslinger subclass is not official or supported by WotC and don't exactly fit within official rules published in the DMG. You kind of have to pick one rule set or the other.
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I guess that's my core confusion, thanks. Given that my Artificer is proficient in Firearms (and my DM encouraged me to build a weapon my Gnome calls The Fire-Harm), I'm unsure which Firearm rules to follow. If the Misfire. and Reload. Properties are both for UA or the like, it seems weird to upgrade the rules (in a way that makes firearms more balanced and less reliable) but prohibit their official use. I'm going to pitch the idea of erring on the side of balance. I want my Fire-Harm to Misfire from time to time! Wouldn't feel tinkered if not! Thanks.
Off hand. I've been considering Alchemist + the gunner from the new Tides of Bildgewater crossover 3rd party supplement. I feel like that one would fit in better with things as presented
Just to clarify, those rules are not from WotC and they are not UA. They were released by Matt Mercer separately. D&D Beyond just have them up to support Critical Role. Think of them as even less official than UA and will never be referenced in any official publication. (Though many DMs allow them and they would make great sense for a tinkered Fire-Harm)
And would the infusion make the 5 shot before reload feature of a Rifle, Hunting no longer an issue?
It will first empty any real ammo it has, then if you try to fire it while it has no ammo loaded, 1 ammo is magically created for that attack.
So you can ignore the reload property.
The firearms in the DMG are all martial ranged weapons, it's only the gunslinger ones that do not fall into the normal distinctions. Pistol and musket should work with loading shot so long as the DM allows the weapons in the world. Higher tech weapons all have reload instead of loading, so it will be up to the DM whether the infusion affects weapons that can carry multiple shots.
Double check the DMG. There isn't a single firearm that isn't a martial ranged weapon with the ammunition property.
Critical role uses a house rule that replaces the rules in the DMG. This is relevant to the 2019 OP and 2020 necro, but not the 2021 necro (it might have still been UA in 2019).
That seems like an Oversight that should be corrected.
The Blunderbuss is a weapon from Critical Role, not a WotC publication (not even those set in the CR universe). These weapons do not and have never used the ammunition property.
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As I said:
And now it is also relevant to a 2022 necro.