After thinking on these changes for a few days, I just wanted to throw out some thoughts on the Beastmaster changes.
The changes are a significant improvement to what they used to be. Action economy makes a lot more sense when you're able to attack and such while still commanding your pet. Unfortunately, I don't think the companion scales all that well. 5 extra hit points every level is meh; it puts them about on par with a wizard that has a decent CON stat. For a beast that's supposed to be getting into melee range in combat, that's not going to help it stand up against monsters that get multiattack on top of various other abilities and stronger stats, especially since their AC never scales up either (which, btw, it's odd to me that the flying option has a higher AC than the land-locked one). It's still better than having a companion you never use because it would take your action to command it, but I feel like there's plenty of room for improvement still since the beast's usefulness is going to rapidly dwindle as the Ranger levels up.
My second nitpick is thematic. The Beast of the Air and Beast of the Land have way more personal flavor and utility than the old way of taming whatever you can find and replacing it when it dies. However... I feel like it locks the character into a mystic druid archetype where they're channeling the power of Nature into manifesting as one of two forms. It definitely precludes some of the quirky and fun concepts where you pick animal companions with unique abilities or to fulfill specific roles. There was a huge difference stylistically between a gnome ranger who rides on the back of the wolf companion they were raised with and consider their brother, or the ranger whose snake companion has been specially trained to grapple and restrain enemies in a fight to give the ranger an advantage. Boiling the companion down to a choice between two stat blocks with generic abilities really strips out a lot of the creative grounds that made beastmasters fun to build.
Again, I think these changes are definitely steps in the right direction, but I also feel like there's a lot of room for improvement still.
This sums up my thoughts about the changes rather nicely. The companion we get should scale better with the Ranger like it did in the last Revised Ranger. In fact, they should just straight up port some of the features from that Unearthed Arcana and put it in this. There would obviously need to be some balancing by I don't see why it wouldn't work:
As an Improvement to Exceptional Training at 7th level your Beast Companion gets a new Action, Coordinated Attack: you and your animal companion form a more potent fighting team. When you use the Attack action on your turn, if your companion can see you, you can use your reaction to make it make a melee attack.
As an Improvement to Beastial Fury at 11th level you can use your attack action to command your companion to unleash a Storm of Fangs and Claws: your companion makes a melee attack against each creature of its choice within 5 feet of it, with a separate attack roll for each target.
As an Improvement to Share Spells at 15th level your companion also now has the Beast's Defense trait which, while your companion can see you, gives it advantage on all saving throws.
Since they seem to be transfixed on having the Beast Companion attack on our initiative (with our action economy) they effectively make it a weapon and not a sidekick/character. So we should at least be able to buff it as we level with new traits and abilities. I would also allow it to take stat increases when we get them and have the damage they deal increase as we level (somewhat like Martial Arts die). For example: at 7th level their damage becomes a d8 and at 11th it becomes a d10. Hell, throw the Trait and Flaws system in there for good measure because there is no such thing as too much customization. As for the AC remaining the same, if we can increase it's stats as we level up then it would naturally go up if we increased it's dex, plus we add our proficiency bonus to it already... OR there is already a barding system in the game... because an armored giant owl is better then an unarmored giant owl.
The Unarmed fighting style is exactly what I've been looking for in some of my builds. I spend so much time having to dip into Monk or getting the Tavern Brawler feat just to get a lousy 1d4 out of it. Between this and Rune Knight I think I can finally have a build of The Hulk that I don't have to bend over backwards to make work.
You can still select any other beast that fits the Beastmaster criteria. You don't HAVE to bond with a Primal Beast, even if they exist in your game.
The trouble is that the original Beastmaster seems to be operating on the assumption that animal companions will come and go, and the ranger is simply supposed to tame a new one whenever the last one dies against that silly ancient dragon. People (rightly) reject this idea because Animal Cruelty: the Subclass doesn't sit right with anybody, but that doesn't stop the subclass from being designed around the idea of its beast companions being temporary and expendable.
Wizards is as aware of action economy as anyone else and they super, super hate giving anyone extra actions. Allowing the beastmaster to have an entire viable second character to play is too powerful for them; the companion either needed to be baked into the base ranger class, a'la Pillars of Eternity, so the class's power curve could be built around having a second set of actions to throw around, or it needed to not happen at all.
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I've been coming to realize that Beastmaster should probably be a separate class altogether. Also, I suppose there's nothing stopping us from just using an existing beast instead of the Primal options.
The changes are a significant improvement to what they used to be. Action economy makes a lot more sense when you're able to attack and such while still commanding your pet. Unfortunately, I don't think the companion scales all that well. 5 extra hit points every level is meh; it puts them about on par with a wizard that has a decent CON stat. For a beast that's supposed to be getting into melee range in combat, that's not going to help it stand up against monsters that get multiattack on top of various other abilities and stronger stats, especially since their AC never scales up either (which, btw, it's odd to me that the flying option has a higher AC than the land-locked one). It's still better than having a companion you never use because it would take your action to command it, but I feel like there's plenty of room for improvement still since the beast's usefulness is going to rapidly dwindle as the Ranger levels up.
...
The new Beastmaster options "enhance" the feature, they don't replace it. So, these news beasts still benefit from the Beastmater feature that enhances AC and attacks
At 3rd level, you gain a beast companion that accompanies you on your adventures and is trained to fight alongside you. Choose a beast that is no larger than Medium and that has a challenge rating of 1/4 or lower. Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in. Its hit point maximum equals the hit point number in its stat block or four times your ranger level, whichever is higher. Like any creature, it can spend Hit Dice during a short rest to regain hit points.
BTW, this also means that the ranger still has its current "spend your action to make it attack" command.
On your turn, you can verbally command the beast where to move (no action required by you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, or Help action.
vs.
Ready Companion. As a bonus action, you can command the beast to make its shred attack or to Hide.
The original feature uses both your Action and the Beat's action, the new UA feature only uses your Bonus Action and no action type of the Beast's. So you can use an Action to make a Beast Shred or Maul, and your Bonus to make it do so again, right out of the gate at Level 3. Pretty good.
You make an excellent point about it enhancing, rather than replacing. I keep looking at it as a rewrite rather than an edit, but if we can keep those relevant pieces from the original class design then it makes a lot more sense.
It seems unlikely to me that they would want to let us use both Action and Bonus Action to make the beast attack. Definitely could use some clarification on what we should keep from the original class.
After thinking on these changes for a few days, I just wanted to throw out some thoughts on the Beastmaster changes.
The changes are a significant improvement to what they used to be. Action economy makes a lot more sense when you're able to attack and such while still commanding your pet. Unfortunately, I don't think the companion scales all that well. 5 extra hit points every level is meh; it puts them about on par with a wizard that has a decent CON stat. For a beast that's supposed to be getting into melee range in combat, that's not going to help it stand up against monsters that get multiattack on top of various other abilities and stronger stats, especially since their AC never scales up either (which, btw, it's odd to me that the flying option has a higher AC than the land-locked one). It's still better than having a companion you never use because it would take your action to command it, but I feel like there's plenty of room for improvement still since the beast's usefulness is going to rapidly dwindle as the Ranger levels up.
My second nitpick is thematic. The Beast of the Air and Beast of the Land have way more personal flavor and utility than the old way of taming whatever you can find and replacing it when it dies. However... I feel like it locks the character into a mystic druid archetype where they're channeling the power of Nature into manifesting as one of two forms. It definitely precludes some of the quirky and fun concepts where you pick animal companions with unique abilities or to fulfill specific roles. There was a huge difference stylistically between a gnome ranger who rides on the back of the wolf companion they were raised with and consider their brother, or the ranger whose snake companion has been specially trained to grapple and restrain enemies in a fight to give the ranger an advantage. Boiling the companion down to a choice between two stat blocks with generic abilities really strips out a lot of the creative grounds that made beastmasters fun to build.
Again, I think these changes are definitely steps in the right direction, but I also feel like there's a lot of room for improvement still.
This sums up my thoughts about the changes rather nicely. The companion we get should scale better with the Ranger like it did in the last Revised Ranger. In fact, they should just straight up port some of the features from that Unearthed Arcana and put it in this. There would obviously need to be some balancing by I don't see why it wouldn't work:
As an Improvement to Exceptional Training at 7th level your Beast Companion gets a new Action, Coordinated Attack: you and your animal companion form a more potent fighting team. When you use the Attack action on your turn, if your companion can see you, you can use your reaction to make it make a melee attack.
As an Improvement to Beastial Fury at 11th level you can use your attack action to command your companion to unleash a Storm of Fangs and Claws: your companion makes a melee attack against each creature of its choice within 5 feet of it, with a separate attack roll for each target.
As an Improvement to Share Spells at 15th level your companion also now has the Beast's Defense trait which, while your companion can see you, gives it advantage on all saving throws.
Since they seem to be transfixed on having the Beast Companion attack on our initiative (with our action economy) they effectively make it a weapon and not a sidekick/character. So we should at least be able to buff it as we level with new traits and abilities. I would also allow it to take stat increases when we get them and have the damage they deal increase as we level (somewhat like Martial Arts die). For example: at 7th level their damage becomes a d8 and at 11th it becomes a d10. Hell, throw the Trait and Flaws system in there for good measure because there is no such thing as too much customization. As for the AC remaining the same, if we can increase it's stats as we level up then it would naturally go up if we increased it's dex, plus we add our proficiency bonus to it already... OR there is already a barding system in the game... because an armored giant owl is better then an unarmored giant owl.
Good point on them basically making the beast a weapon. I don't necessarily disagree with bringing some of those features over from the Revised Ranger, but I would be hesitant to just slap them on top of whatever we would already be getting as it is. The Revised Ranger was overtuned, so just slapping on a bunch of the features from it could easily put it back in that category.
Oh I absolutely agree that it would probably be overtuned. But with time and playtesting I could see some of these features working. Especially the Storm of Fangs and Claws and Beast's Defense. Coordinated attack might be a bit too much since you'd be able to then use your Reaction, your attack action, AND your bonus action to have your panther lay into the enemy as you sit there watching with popcorn. Having a unique reaction for the Beast Master, I think, is an absolute must. Even letting us use our reaction to make opportunity attacks with our companion would be nice.
I think we also maybe need a few more templates or attack options for said beasts. What if I want to create a giant wasp with poison damage? Or a giant anaconda/octopus that specializes in grappling? Being able to have options to swap out to further customize your beast would be a welcomed change since it is basically your longbow replacement for the game... as your teammates get more badass weapons your beast should also get some bells and whistles to keep up.
At my table I have a revised ranger beast master who, as the game continues, has been teaching her creature more techniques and maneuvers to make things more spicy in combat. Basically: I am giving her aquatic panther battle master maneuvers after enough training. So far it hasn't been overpowered at all and really has added to her enjoyment of the game (can't wait till I give that thing some elemental damage too...).
Unarmed Fighting style makes the dumb Battlerager Barbarian much more viable if you dip some levels into fighter.
Are you calling Thibbledorf Pwent dumb? (I am kidding)
That is fairly true, I liked the idea of bringing that class into the game but have never felt much of an urge to actually use it, nor have I seen any of my players so much as look at it sideways. I know a lot of people are up in arms about the Unarmed fighting style but honestly the fighters would/could be doing as much or more damage with a weapon in their hand so why is it the end of the world to introduce it? So far for the UA Features there are very few that I think are just dumb/broken. Even those whining about the lvl 1 ranger dip being too OP unless the hunters mark pool is based off of level isn't all that sound. How many classes utilize wisdom as one of their primary stats aside from ranger? Three, unless I have forgotten something. Not even sure if many of the subclasses made use of wisdom in their toolkit either. So if you aren't a cleric or druid dipping into ranger then you are likely to only have something like 14 wisdom (based off standard array) and would have two uses of this ability. Strong but not really that game breaking, Monk is the only one I can see turning this into a murder frenzy of ALWAYS using flurry of blows to pump out that sweet sweet d6 added damage per strike. but this regens on a long rest where as monk ki points are a short rest commodity. Potent, not quite sure it would break the game, could be fun to playtest it out and see how it goes. If they do have to make it ranger level dependent would getting one use per two levels be too much? 10 uses by the end (if you EVER reach there) which would be close to unlimited uses. Depending on if you went with a round up or round down, you could have 2 uses at third level, 3 at 5, etc. which would be a pretty decent supplement. If they went with every 3 levels (assuming round up all fractions) 1 extra for the first three levels, 2 for 4-6, and 7 at the near max levels. I would be curious to see how this would play out with any of those three options.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I just want to say I love the direction they are taking the Ranger. It feels really good.
I think that Favored Foe, Deft Explorer and Primal Awareness in addition to the ability to change 1 spell per long rest makes them feel like a nature themed primal class but it also gives them what I think the class fantasy of the Ranger is, which is adaptability and versatility. They are now far better able to adapt to the situation at hand. They feel like the class fantasy of survivorman or bear grills, a wilderness expert that can adapt to ANY situation, instead of being JUST a forest Ranger or mountain Ranger. They can be an expert at surviving in ANY environment, against ANY foe. They feel like elite special forces, trained survivors, and masters of their craft able to be flexible and change on the fly to meet their circumstances. This feels HUGE for Rangers.
- Expertise in Survival, or Stealth or what-have-you depending on how you want to play it allows for more customizability
- Climbing and/or Swimming speed I feel impacts the exploration part of the game without just hand-waving it. You can climb better than any PC now, or swim, and you can get to where others cannot as easily.
- The ability to just be tough makes for a valuable front line tank as well as unable to get tired, that speaks of natural resilience, I love this.
- The ability to swap a spell per long rest really alleviates some of the Rangers issues and allows them to better adapt and prepare for the day ahead, I love this.
In addition to all of the above the free spells they gave Ranger loosens up what spells they're now able to take. Since Hunter's Mark is baked into Favored Foe you can now more easily pick a flavorful spell, plus Primal Awareness gives a ton of free spells and all of these cast be cast without expending a spell slot a number of times per day, which allows room for different types of spells like support spells, and really helps flavor out the Ranger. I feel before every Ranger basically, essentially, took the same few spells over and over and over.
I think the spells specifically given to Primal Awareness really do what it did anyway but better in some cases and with a more versatile function. I just love it. They really feel like a FIGHTER + DRUID now, which I think is a huge win. I also think it emphasizes the point of Primeval Awareness better, and bakes into the old Favored Foe, that role of the hunter. Able to roleplay gathering information on your quarry, asking animals, plants and other things along the way, and when close enough locate creature. You feel like an unstoppable tracker now between expertise in Survival (should you choose), and all of these spells supported by this class feature. You can really track down your prey like an expert, and I think that really hits on class fantasy, and an expert woodsman. Any old novice cannot escape you as you prowl the wilds and seek to protect nature, or simply as a bounty hunter better able to track your pay day.
I feel like Melee Rangers saw some love here with enhanced tanking ability and even smite spells, the Ranged variants continue to stay strong, and overall things like Entangle and such feel like they have some "trap" spells and features. I think they nailed it. I would only ask for perhaps scaling on Favored Foe, as well as possibly reworking the Capstone. Not to mention I feel like these additional options (including Fighting Style) really adds a ton of flavor and additional ways to play a Ranger from a hand-axe throwing Half-Orc, to a more druid-like Ranger (the cantrips fighting style feels really cool). The only thing I’d love to see is a retroactive addition of bonus spells to Hunter and Beast Master to reach parity with the other subclasses.
My ONLY nitpick is the interaction of Two-Weapon Fighting as a Beast Master. The way the ability works once you have Extra Attack does not take the Attack Action, as commanding your beast to attack is not the attack action, thus you cannot make a bonus action attack as a TWF. This also means you cannot do TWF with the brand new Throwing fighting style to throw handaxes, or spears, or javelins, or daggers twice and also have your beast attack. The bonus action to attack on the primal beasts is amazing for Archers, but melee Rangers could use a tiny bit more love in my opinion. I think dual-wielding melee Ranger or throwing Ranger is an iconic "class fantasy" that still does not function per raw :( This is the only change I would make.
Theorycrafting here with a min/maxed human with 16 Dex/Wis/Cha with a rapier or longbow
Ranger 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+3(Dex)(avg 11)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+3(Dex) (avg 14.5)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Hexblade 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+1d6(Hex)+2(HBC)+3(Cha) (avg 20)
I think that the level 3 version of any of those classes is less than that, which is the problem.
Ranger 3 does 1d8+1d6+3+(either another 1d8 or 1d6 or another attack depending on subclass), probably around 14.5 single target avg.
Rogue 3 does 1d8+2d6+3, around 14 single target avg.
Hexblade 3 does 1d10+1d6+2+3, around 14 single target avg.
Maximizing damage at higher tiers probably involves advancing in Fighter (for more attacks per round) or Rogue (for superior single hit damage), not Ranger or Warlock.
Ranger and Warlock in particular heavily reward splashing in low tier games, which has been a complaint about them since release. It just would be nice to see UA that attempts to make them more desirable as full courses, instead of UA that continues to make them look like tasty snacks.
Theorycrafting here with a min/maxed human with 16 Dex/Wis/Cha with a rapier or longbow
Ranger 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+3(Dex)(avg 11)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+3(Dex) (avg 14.5)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Hexblade 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+1d6(Hex)+2(HBC)+3(Cha) (avg 20)
I think that the level 3 version of any of those classes is less than that, which is the problem.
Ranger 3 does 1d8+1d6+3+(either another 1d8 or 1d6 or another attack depending on subclass), probably around 14.5 single target avg.
Rogue 3 does 1d8+2d6+3, around 14 single target avg.
Hexblade 3 does 1d10+1d6+2+3, around 14 single target avg.
Maximizing damage at higher tiers probably involves advancing in Fighter (for more attacks per round) or Rogue (for superior single hit damage), not Ranger or Warlock.
Ranger and Warlock in particular heavily reward splashing in low tier games, which has been a complaint about them since release. It just would be nice to see UA that attempts to make them more desirable as full courses, instead of UA that continues to make them look like tasty snacks.
assuming you have 16 in three stats is a stretch in my opinion. One of those stats is likely to be a 14, still it would not impact the calculations you have done if charisma is the 14, granted you can only explode like this one combat per short rest, and only a few times per day period. Also assuming that EVERY round you get your sneak attack damage is kinda meh, although I guess with a second level in rogue you can reliably get those sneak attacks if you use the new cunning action option. But you could get some extra kick from dual weapon fighting or from beast master (with the new changes to primal beasty). Not as dire of a situation as you make it out to be. With monk 2 ranger 1 you can flurry for a huge boost in a single round, 3(1d4+DEX+1d6) =27 on a full hit combo once per short rest, which would only scale upwards as you leveled further in monk. Monk Ranger could be scary as heck. Add in the weapon proficiency options for monk and they can squeeze a couple more damage out of it to bring it up to 29. Not sure any other 3 level combos would come close to this, and it is twice per short rest, potentially 6 of these bursts per day. Ouch.
Even Paladin 2 with great weapon fighting and sorceror 1 only gets 3 bursts of 2d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) + STR +1d8 for an average of 16.5 on a hit. That is on a long rest, getting another level brings that up quite a bit with the additional spell slots and higher level slots and sorcery points. Even still I think the monk would outpace this damage potential for a while.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Yeah don't get too hung up on my math and stats, it isn't really build advice, it's more about.... adding 1 level of ranger onto another class results in a lot of combat effectiveness, probably more than a pure ranger or a pure [other class] would be at the same level. Dexterity is already found on most characters, and 14 wisdom isn't that hard to justify since perception and Wisdom saves are useful, so I just think we're going to start seeing as many Ranger 1's popping up in builds as we already were seeing Hexblade 1's.
Which ultimately is fine, I guess. Was just kinda pointing it out as a design quirk.
Regarding Favored Foe - who thinks this would be better. I wonder if it would prevent potential one level multiclassing abuse.
Make this a second level feature and remove the following:
You can use it a certain number of times without expending a spell slot and without requiring concentration— a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Replace it with:
At 4th level when you cast the Hunter’s Mark spell it is not a concentration spell for you.
Doing it the way u suggest is assuming the player took hunters mark. Meaning any ranger who didnt wanna focus their playstyle around that spell get screwed. HAving it be a class feature with no concentration frees you up to pick other spells and gives you a good option to stack some damage during combat if u want to. Easiest way to get around multiclass abuse is to just not let it be in your game cause its an optional rule set. And even if u did let it be in ur game theres alot of classes that people dip into currently to abuse features (fighter, warlock, cleric) adding ranger to that list is whatever the only reason people didnt do it before is cause rangers were usually regarded as bad lol
I like how everyone is freakin out about the Ranger's Hunter Mark "abuse"...
You took a lvl in this class, you're sacrificing your lvl 20 cap( yes i know its an ambitious goal, but if you don't aim for the max lvl, might as well play dolls and pretends then) for this.
Its a faire price imo.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
I like how everyone is freakin out about the Ranger's Hunter Mark "abuse"...
You took a lvl in this class, you're sacrificing your lvl 20 cap( yes i know its an ambitious goal, but if you don't aim for the max lvl, might as well play dolls and pretends then) for this.
Its a faire price imo.
Most campaigns don't even make it to level 12, more or less level 20, so I don't think that is a problem sacrificing a class feature a majority of players will never reach.
Theorycrafting here with a min/maxed human with 16 Dex/Wis/Cha with a rapier or longbow
Ranger 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+3(Dex)(avg 11)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+3(Dex) (avg 14.5)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Hexblade 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+1d6(Hex)+2(HBC)+3(Cha) (avg 20)
I think that the level 3 version of any of those classes is less than that, which is the problem.
Ranger 3 does 1d8+1d6+3+(either another 1d8 or 1d6 or another attack depending on subclass), probably around 14.5 single target avg.
Rogue 3 does 1d8+2d6+3, around 14 single target avg.
Hexblade 3 does 1d10+1d6+2+3, around 14 single target avg.
Maximizing damage at higher tiers probably involves advancing in Fighter (for more attacks per round) or Rogue (for superior single hit damage), not Ranger or Warlock.
Ranger and Warlock in particular heavily reward splashing in low tier games, which has been a complaint about them since release. It just would be nice to see UA that attempts to make them more desirable as full courses, instead of UA that continues to make them look like tasty snacks.
Okay, but run the numbers at level 5 when Ranger and Hexblade would pick up extra attacks, but the MC would still be at minimum 2 levels away from that.
Theorycrafting here with a min/maxed human with 16 Dex/Wis/Cha with a rapier or longbow
Ranger 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+3(Dex)(avg 11)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+3(Dex) (avg 14.5)
Ranger 1/Rogue 1/Hexblade 1 they do 1d8+1d6(HM)+1d6(SA)+1d6(Hex)+2(HBC)+3(Cha) (avg 20)
I think that the level 3 version of any of those classes is less than that, which is the problem.
There’s some setup involved in getting Hex and Hunter’s Mark on an enemy though. It uses their BA for two turns whereas a Ranger 3 without hex could be casting a different buff on the next turn (admittedly using a spell slot). The dip into rogue might not be worth the slight magic setback either... I guess one level doesn’t hurt too much
I am overly fond of the Elemental Spell metamagic. As it makes draconic bloodline viable to me. As otherwise I felt locked into being a red/gold bloodline as opposed to black or green (acid and poison). And I feel it's a good addition in that regard. However I'm unsure if you pick a elemental type in the metamagic itself or when you cast a spell.
The new pact seems like a attempt for a skill monkey warlock. Something I'm in favor of, though it's a bit weak for this goal. Perhaps if you could add the d4 (it could increase by level) to the skills you have proficiency in but it's only for you. As to make it useful for you to carry it around. as is it's better to hand over your class feature to someone else.
The chain invocation, well you can have the familiar in combat. Too bad it's weak. Love that the pact of the blade one opens up STR warlocks/not hexblade locks. Pact of the tome is rather solid I would say.
I'm unsure on the cunning aim. It feels far to archer/ranger as opposed to rogue. I don't think it breaks rogues per say. As a arcane trickster could use a familiar for easy advantage. Or use their cunning hide for a advantage (something that feels far more in line of being a rogue).
I'll say I like the revised ranger more. Feels more ranger I'll say. And are they telling us that rangers should take ritual casting feat as soon as possible? I'd say it seems so, then you can cast all those primeval awareness for free. And yes the new ranger here seems stronger generally.
I'm surprised they didn't give new four elements monks any new options. And I think there will be more wood elf monks now, the elven weapon training turns quite good.
I'll say I'm not too fond of the notion to swap cantrips and skills. Granted I can see why that'd be. That the GM doesn't provide challenges or skill checks for those the player is proficient in. However I'd say it'd be better to do it by talking to the GM and sort of retcon the character or add skills checks for you. Or if it's that someone in the party has the same skill but better perhaps talking to each other beforehand on what skills you will bring so you don't step on each others toes? It's a bit strange for me, as it seems like something to talk out of the game rather than a built in mechanic. Though it would suit better to be a side note in a handbook that your GM can swap your cantrips to suit the game. Or skills.
Hunters Mark abuse with this really isn't that much. Remember, spells only can affect a creature once, you are unable to stack it. If ranger becomes a popular dip, what of it? At least it would be more interesting for a character to be a full ranger than taking one level to gain an ability in a specific subclass, like with hexblade. Frankly, I would rather hunters mark be a straight up class feature, like divine smite is, perhaps running on a couple for free and being able to make more with spell slots, making it more clear that it is supposed to be central to the ranger playstyle. Perhaps they should get it at level 2 (to stop single dipping, level 2 becomes somewhat more reasonable, they also would get spellcasting here).
Regarding Favored Foe - who thinks this would be better. I wonder if it would prevent potential one level multiclassing abuse.
Make this a second level feature and remove the following:
You can use it a certain number of times without expending a spell slot and without requiring concentration— a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
Replace it with:
At 4th level when you cast the Hunter’s Mark spell it is not a concentration spell for you.
I think the solution they offered is rather nice, it removes concentration for most of the encounters the ranger will have in a day and allows for it to not take one of the few spell slots they have. I don't really see abuse being an issue. Taking a level dip is not without cost for one, you have to have a 13 in Wis and Dex/Str to even take it, and even then you would have 1 use of it, so without a high Wis it isn't super useful and if someone wants to invest their ability points into Wis to make the dip then that seems like a fair trade off to me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This sums up my thoughts about the changes rather nicely. The companion we get should scale better with the Ranger like it did in the last Revised Ranger. In fact, they should just straight up port some of the features from that Unearthed Arcana and put it in this. There would obviously need to be some balancing by I don't see why it wouldn't work:
As an Improvement to Exceptional Training at 7th level your Beast Companion gets a new Action, Coordinated Attack: you and your animal companion form a more potent fighting team. When you use the Attack action on your turn, if your companion can see you, you can use your reaction to make it make a melee attack.
As an Improvement to Beastial Fury at 11th level you can use your attack action to command your companion to unleash a Storm of Fangs and Claws: your companion makes a melee attack against each creature of its choice within 5 feet of it, with a separate attack roll for each target.
As an Improvement to Share Spells at 15th level your companion also now has the Beast's Defense trait which, while your companion can see you, gives it advantage on all saving throws.
Since they seem to be transfixed on having the Beast Companion attack on our initiative (with our action economy) they effectively make it a weapon and not a sidekick/character. So we should at least be able to buff it as we level with new traits and abilities. I would also allow it to take stat increases when we get them and have the damage they deal increase as we level (somewhat like Martial Arts die). For example: at 7th level their damage becomes a d8 and at 11th it becomes a d10. Hell, throw the Trait and Flaws system in there for good measure because there is no such thing as too much customization. As for the AC remaining the same, if we can increase it's stats as we level up then it would naturally go up if we increased it's dex, plus we add our proficiency bonus to it already... OR there is already a barding system in the game... because an armored giant owl is better then an unarmored giant owl.
The Unarmed fighting style is exactly what I've been looking for in some of my builds. I spend so much time having to dip into Monk or getting the Tavern Brawler feat just to get a lousy 1d4 out of it. Between this and Rune Knight I think I can finally have a build of The Hulk that I don't have to bend over backwards to make work.
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I've been coming to realize that Beastmaster should probably be a separate class altogether. Also, I suppose there's nothing stopping us from just using an existing beast instead of the Primal options.
You make an excellent point about it enhancing, rather than replacing. I keep looking at it as a rewrite rather than an edit, but if we can keep those relevant pieces from the original class design then it makes a lot more sense.
It seems unlikely to me that they would want to let us use both Action and Bonus Action to make the beast attack. Definitely could use some clarification on what we should keep from the original class.
Good point on them basically making the beast a weapon. I don't necessarily disagree with bringing some of those features over from the Revised Ranger, but I would be hesitant to just slap them on top of whatever we would already be getting as it is. The Revised Ranger was overtuned, so just slapping on a bunch of the features from it could easily put it back in that category.
Good discussion, all!
Oh I absolutely agree that it would probably be overtuned. But with time and playtesting I could see some of these features working. Especially the Storm of Fangs and Claws and Beast's Defense. Coordinated attack might be a bit too much since you'd be able to then use your Reaction, your attack action, AND your bonus action to have your panther lay into the enemy as you sit there watching with popcorn. Having a unique reaction for the Beast Master, I think, is an absolute must. Even letting us use our reaction to make opportunity attacks with our companion would be nice.
I think we also maybe need a few more templates or attack options for said beasts. What if I want to create a giant wasp with poison damage? Or a giant anaconda/octopus that specializes in grappling? Being able to have options to swap out to further customize your beast would be a welcomed change since it is basically your longbow replacement for the game... as your teammates get more badass weapons your beast should also get some bells and whistles to keep up.
At my table I have a revised ranger beast master who, as the game continues, has been teaching her creature more techniques and maneuvers to make things more spicy in combat. Basically: I am giving her aquatic panther battle master maneuvers after enough training. So far it hasn't been overpowered at all and really has added to her enjoyment of the game (can't wait till I give that thing some elemental damage too...).
Unarmed Fighting style makes the dumb Battlerager Barbarian much more viable if you dip some levels into fighter.
Are you calling Thibbledorf Pwent dumb? (I am kidding)
That is fairly true, I liked the idea of bringing that class into the game but have never felt much of an urge to actually use it, nor have I seen any of my players so much as look at it sideways. I know a lot of people are up in arms about the Unarmed fighting style but honestly the fighters would/could be doing as much or more damage with a weapon in their hand so why is it the end of the world to introduce it? So far for the UA Features there are very few that I think are just dumb/broken. Even those whining about the lvl 1 ranger dip being too OP unless the hunters mark pool is based off of level isn't all that sound. How many classes utilize wisdom as one of their primary stats aside from ranger? Three, unless I have forgotten something. Not even sure if many of the subclasses made use of wisdom in their toolkit either. So if you aren't a cleric or druid dipping into ranger then you are likely to only have something like 14 wisdom (based off standard array) and would have two uses of this ability. Strong but not really that game breaking, Monk is the only one I can see turning this into a murder frenzy of ALWAYS using flurry of blows to pump out that sweet sweet d6 added damage per strike. but this regens on a long rest where as monk ki points are a short rest commodity. Potent, not quite sure it would break the game, could be fun to playtest it out and see how it goes. If they do have to make it ranger level dependent would getting one use per two levels be too much? 10 uses by the end (if you EVER reach there) which would be close to unlimited uses. Depending on if you went with a round up or round down, you could have 2 uses at third level, 3 at 5, etc. which would be a pretty decent supplement. If they went with every 3 levels (assuming round up all fractions) 1 extra for the first three levels, 2 for 4-6, and 7 at the near max levels. I would be curious to see how this would play out with any of those three options.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I just want to say I love the direction they are taking the Ranger. It feels really good.
I think that Favored Foe, Deft Explorer and Primal Awareness in addition to the ability to change 1 spell per long rest makes them feel like a nature themed primal class but it also gives them what I think the class fantasy of the Ranger is, which is adaptability and versatility. They are now far better able to adapt to the situation at hand. They feel like the class fantasy of survivorman or bear grills, a wilderness expert that can adapt to ANY situation, instead of being JUST a forest Ranger or mountain Ranger. They can be an expert at surviving in ANY environment, against ANY foe. They feel like elite special forces, trained survivors, and masters of their craft able to be flexible and change on the fly to meet their circumstances. This feels HUGE for Rangers.
- Expertise in Survival, or Stealth or what-have-you depending on how you want to play it allows for more customizability
- Climbing and/or Swimming speed I feel impacts the exploration part of the game without just hand-waving it. You can climb better than any PC now, or swim, and you can get to where others cannot as easily.
- The ability to just be tough makes for a valuable front line tank as well as unable to get tired, that speaks of natural resilience, I love this.
- The ability to swap a spell per long rest really alleviates some of the Rangers issues and allows them to better adapt and prepare for the day ahead, I love this.
In addition to all of the above the free spells they gave Ranger loosens up what spells they're now able to take. Since Hunter's Mark is baked into Favored Foe you can now more easily pick a flavorful spell, plus Primal Awareness gives a ton of free spells and all of these cast be cast without expending a spell slot a number of times per day, which allows room for different types of spells like support spells, and really helps flavor out the Ranger. I feel before every Ranger basically, essentially, took the same few spells over and over and over.
I think the spells specifically given to Primal Awareness really do what it did anyway but better in some cases and with a more versatile function. I just love it. They really feel like a FIGHTER + DRUID now, which I think is a huge win. I also think it emphasizes the point of Primeval Awareness better, and bakes into the old Favored Foe, that role of the hunter. Able to roleplay gathering information on your quarry, asking animals, plants and other things along the way, and when close enough locate creature. You feel like an unstoppable tracker now between expertise in Survival (should you choose), and all of these spells supported by this class feature. You can really track down your prey like an expert, and I think that really hits on class fantasy, and an expert woodsman. Any old novice cannot escape you as you prowl the wilds and seek to protect nature, or simply as a bounty hunter better able to track your pay day.
I feel like Melee Rangers saw some love here with enhanced tanking ability and even smite spells, the Ranged variants continue to stay strong, and overall things like Entangle and such feel like they have some "trap" spells and features. I think they nailed it. I would only ask for perhaps scaling on Favored Foe, as well as possibly reworking the Capstone. Not to mention I feel like these additional options (including Fighting Style) really adds a ton of flavor and additional ways to play a Ranger from a hand-axe throwing Half-Orc, to a more druid-like Ranger (the cantrips fighting style feels really cool). The only thing I’d love to see is a retroactive addition of bonus spells to Hunter and Beast Master to reach parity with the other subclasses.
My ONLY nitpick is the interaction of Two-Weapon Fighting as a Beast Master. The way the ability works once you have Extra Attack does not take the Attack Action, as commanding your beast to attack is not the attack action, thus you cannot make a bonus action attack as a TWF. This also means you cannot do TWF with the brand new Throwing fighting style to throw handaxes, or spears, or javelins, or daggers twice and also have your beast attack. The bonus action to attack on the primal beasts is amazing for Archers, but melee Rangers could use a tiny bit more love in my opinion. I think dual-wielding melee Ranger or throwing Ranger is an iconic "class fantasy" that still does not function per raw :( This is the only change I would make.
Theorycrafting here with a min/maxed human with 16 Dex/Wis/Cha with a rapier or longbow
I think that the level 3 version of any of those classes is less than that, which is the problem.
Maximizing damage at higher tiers probably involves advancing in Fighter (for more attacks per round) or Rogue (for superior single hit damage), not Ranger or Warlock.
Ranger and Warlock in particular heavily reward splashing in low tier games, which has been a complaint about them since release. It just would be nice to see UA that attempts to make them more desirable as full courses, instead of UA that continues to make them look like tasty snacks.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
assuming you have 16 in three stats is a stretch in my opinion. One of those stats is likely to be a 14, still it would not impact the calculations you have done if charisma is the 14, granted you can only explode like this one combat per short rest, and only a few times per day period. Also assuming that EVERY round you get your sneak attack damage is kinda meh, although I guess with a second level in rogue you can reliably get those sneak attacks if you use the new cunning action option. But you could get some extra kick from dual weapon fighting or from beast master (with the new changes to primal beasty). Not as dire of a situation as you make it out to be. With monk 2 ranger 1 you can flurry for a huge boost in a single round, 3(1d4+DEX+1d6) =27 on a full hit combo once per short rest, which would only scale upwards as you leveled further in monk. Monk Ranger could be scary as heck. Add in the weapon proficiency options for monk and they can squeeze a couple more damage out of it to bring it up to 29. Not sure any other 3 level combos would come close to this, and it is twice per short rest, potentially 6 of these bursts per day. Ouch.
Even Paladin 2 with great weapon fighting and sorceror 1 only gets 3 bursts of 2d6 (reroll 1s and 2s) + STR +1d8 for an average of 16.5 on a hit. That is on a long rest, getting another level brings that up quite a bit with the additional spell slots and higher level slots and sorcery points. Even still I think the monk would outpace this damage potential for a while.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Yeah don't get too hung up on my math and stats, it isn't really build advice, it's more about.... adding 1 level of ranger onto another class results in a lot of combat effectiveness, probably more than a pure ranger or a pure [other class] would be at the same level. Dexterity is already found on most characters, and 14 wisdom isn't that hard to justify since perception and Wisdom saves are useful, so I just think we're going to start seeing as many Ranger 1's popping up in builds as we already were seeing Hexblade 1's.
Which ultimately is fine, I guess. Was just kinda pointing it out as a design quirk.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Doing it the way u suggest is assuming the player took hunters mark. Meaning any ranger who didnt wanna focus their playstyle around that spell get screwed. HAving it be a class feature with no concentration frees you up to pick other spells and gives you a good option to stack some damage during combat if u want to. Easiest way to get around multiclass abuse is to just not let it be in your game cause its an optional rule set. And even if u did let it be in ur game theres alot of classes that people dip into currently to abuse features (fighter, warlock, cleric) adding ranger to that list is whatever the only reason people didnt do it before is cause rangers were usually regarded as bad lol
I like how everyone is freakin out about the Ranger's Hunter Mark "abuse"...
You took a lvl in this class, you're sacrificing your lvl 20 cap( yes i know its an ambitious goal, but if you don't aim for the max lvl, might as well play dolls and pretends then) for this.
Its a faire price imo.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Most campaigns don't even make it to level 12, more or less level 20, so I don't think that is a problem sacrificing a class feature a majority of players will never reach.
Okay, but run the numbers at level 5 when Ranger and Hexblade would pick up extra attacks, but the MC would still be at minimum 2 levels away from that.
There’s some setup involved in getting Hex and Hunter’s Mark on an enemy though. It uses their BA for two turns whereas a Ranger 3 without hex could be casting a different buff on the next turn (admittedly using a spell slot). The dip into rogue might not be worth the slight magic setback either... I guess one level doesn’t hurt too much
I am overly fond of the Elemental Spell metamagic. As it makes draconic bloodline viable to me. As otherwise I felt locked into being a red/gold bloodline as opposed to black or green (acid and poison). And I feel it's a good addition in that regard. However I'm unsure if you pick a elemental type in the metamagic itself or when you cast a spell.
The new pact seems like a attempt for a skill monkey warlock. Something I'm in favor of, though it's a bit weak for this goal. Perhaps if you could add the d4 (it could increase by level) to the skills you have proficiency in but it's only for you. As to make it useful for you to carry it around. as is it's better to hand over your class feature to someone else.
The chain invocation, well you can have the familiar in combat. Too bad it's weak.
Love that the pact of the blade one opens up STR warlocks/not hexblade locks.
Pact of the tome is rather solid I would say.
I'm unsure on the cunning aim. It feels far to archer/ranger as opposed to rogue. I don't think it breaks rogues per say. As a arcane trickster could use a familiar for easy advantage. Or use their cunning hide for a advantage (something that feels far more in line of being a rogue).
I'll say I like the revised ranger more. Feels more ranger I'll say. And are they telling us that rangers should take ritual casting feat as soon as possible? I'd say it seems so, then you can cast all those primeval awareness for free. And yes the new ranger here seems stronger generally.
I'm surprised they didn't give new four elements monks any new options. And I think there will be more wood elf monks now, the elven weapon training turns quite good.
I'll say I'm not too fond of the notion to swap cantrips and skills. Granted I can see why that'd be. That the GM doesn't provide challenges or skill checks for those the player is proficient in. However I'd say it'd be better to do it by talking to the GM and sort of retcon the character or add skills checks for you. Or if it's that someone in the party has the same skill but better perhaps talking to each other beforehand on what skills you will bring so you don't step on each others toes? It's a bit strange for me, as it seems like something to talk out of the game rather than a built in mechanic. Though it would suit better to be a side note in a handbook that your GM can swap your cantrips to suit the game. Or skills.
Monks got nothing. After lvl 5 you don't use weapons and big woops on the other abilities. Hope it never gets implemented
Hunters Mark abuse with this really isn't that much. Remember, spells only can affect a creature once, you are unable to stack it. If ranger becomes a popular dip, what of it? At least it would be more interesting for a character to be a full ranger than taking one level to gain an ability in a specific subclass, like with hexblade. Frankly, I would rather hunters mark be a straight up class feature, like divine smite is, perhaps running on a couple for free and being able to make more with spell slots, making it more clear that it is supposed to be central to the ranger playstyle. Perhaps they should get it at level 2 (to stop single dipping, level 2 becomes somewhat more reasonable, they also would get spellcasting here).
I think the solution they offered is rather nice, it removes concentration for most of the encounters the ranger will have in a day and allows for it to not take one of the few spell slots they have. I don't really see abuse being an issue. Taking a level dip is not without cost for one, you have to have a 13 in Wis and Dex/Str to even take it, and even then you would have 1 use of it, so without a high Wis it isn't super useful and if someone wants to invest their ability points into Wis to make the dip then that seems like a fair trade off to me.