DMS that lack the creative ability to deal with a 1st level character that has mobility. Enemies with short bows, javelins, long bows, heavy crossbows or ranged spells easily deal with the issue, having a fight take place in a building or cave or dungeon deals with it etc. Or the unthinkable. Having a conversation with the player and ask them to not abuse the feature into the ground to the point where other players think its unfair or to where you are forced to knock them out of the sky constantly.
As for the "sorcerer is weak" argument, it sounds like you think the wizard is also weak. They just aren't, one just have to know how to do them: For example, here is a sorcerer 18/warlock2:
SORCERER SPELLS LV0 Light, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Message LV1 Absorb Elements LV2 Suggestion WIS, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web DEX LV3 Counterspell, Dispel Magic LV4 Banishment CHA, Confusion WIS LV5 Hold Monster WIS, Animate Objects LV6 True Seeing LV7 Plane Shift CHA LV8 Dominate Monster WIS LV9 Wish
It will never ever be useless, and works at every level up to 20. Even better, they use charisma and not intelligence, which is universally better.
And Quicken isnt the only crazy metamagic. Still spell makes you immune to counterspell, meaning you have a massive advantage in most magic duells, and can always count on escaping.
As for "but let say I don't choose the good options because it fits better to use weaker ones", well balancing have to assume a minimum measure of class-utilization. It will always be possible to create sub-par characters. For example a strong archer, or a dexterous great sword wielder. When designing the system this cannot be an argument to give the fighter extra stuff. And versatility is very much stuff that matters, as proven by wizards in edition after edition.
If you ask me, the best fix is a GM guiding players making characters and talking to them between sessions to ensure their characters can shine on a regular/semi-regular basis. This is after all the easiest part to control as a GM, without the downsides of giving spellcasters even more versatility.
lol did you just make the sorclock argument? dude 90 percent of games dont make it to 20th level thats an extremely rare example you just used and its not even the pure power of a sorcerer its using the strength of the warlocks eldritch blast and abusing the most powerful cantrip in the game. And its fairly common for a game using milestones to not have a character consistently level up. At the end of the day people should just give things a try and see if it even actually breaks your game cause as it stands everyone arguing about it is just theory crafting. Put it in your game, see if it makes your players happier and if it breaks anything and give honest feedback about it instead of just yelling to the heavens that it SOUNDS broken without ever having put it into practice. Otherwise stop yammering on about something no one has any actual experience with.
As for the "sorcerer is weak" argument, it sounds like you think the wizard is also weak. They just aren't, one just have to know how to do them: For example, here is a sorcerer 18/warlock2:
SORCERER SPELLS LV0 Light, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Message LV1 Absorb Elements LV2 Suggestion WIS, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web DEX LV3 Counterspell, Dispel Magic LV4 Banishment CHA, Confusion WIS LV5 Hold Monster WIS, Animate Objects LV6 True Seeing LV7 Plane Shift CHA LV8 Dominate Monster WIS LV9 Wish
It will never ever be useless, and works at every level up to 20. Even better, they use charisma and not intelligence, which is universally better.
And Quicken isnt the only crazy metamagic. Still spell makes you immune to counterspell, meaning you have a massive advantage in most magic duells, and can always count on escaping.
As for "but let say I don't choose the good options because it fits better to use weaker ones", well balancing have to assume a minimum measure of class-utilization. It will always be possible to create sub-par characters. For example a strong archer, or a dexterous great sword wielder. When designing the system this cannot be an argument to give the fighter extra stuff. And versatility is very much stuff that matters, as proven by wizards in edition after edition.
If you ask me, the best fix is a GM guiding players making characters and talking to them between sessions to ensure their characters can shine on a regular/semi-regular basis. This is after all the easiest part to control as a GM, without the downsides of giving spellcasters even more versatility.
lol did you just make the sorclock argument? dude 90 percent of games dont make it to 20th level thats an extremely rare example you just used and its not even the pure power of a sorcerer its using the strength of the warlocks eldritch blast and abusing the most powerful cantrip in the game. And its fairly common for a game using milestones to not have a character consistently level up. At the end of the day people should just give things a try and see if it even actually breaks your game cause as it stands everyone arguing about it is just theory crafting. Put it in your game, see if it makes your players happier and if it breaks anything and give honest feedback about it instead of just yelling to the heavens that it SOUNDS broken without ever having put it into practice. Otherwise stop yammering on about something no one has any actual experience with.
As for the "sorcerer is weak" argument, it sounds like you think the wizard is also weak. They just aren't, one just have to know how to do them: For example, here is a sorcerer 18/warlock2:
SORCERER SPELLS LV0 Light, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Booming Blade, Fire Bolt, Message LV1 Absorb Elements LV2 Suggestion WIS, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Web DEX LV3 Counterspell, Dispel Magic LV4 Banishment CHA, Confusion WIS LV5 Hold Monster WIS, Animate Objects LV6 True Seeing LV7 Plane Shift CHA LV8 Dominate Monster WIS LV9 Wish
It will never ever be useless, and works at every level up to 20. Even better, they use charisma and not intelligence, which is universally better.
And Quicken isnt the only crazy metamagic. Still spell makes you immune to counterspell, meaning you have a massive advantage in most magic duells, and can always count on escaping.
As for "but let say I don't choose the good options because it fits better to use weaker ones", well balancing have to assume a minimum measure of class-utilization. It will always be possible to create sub-par characters. For example a strong archer, or a dexterous great sword wielder. When designing the system this cannot be an argument to give the fighter extra stuff. And versatility is very much stuff that matters, as proven by wizards in edition after edition.
If you ask me, the best fix is a GM guiding players making characters and talking to them between sessions to ensure their characters can shine on a regular/semi-regular basis. This is after all the easiest part to control as a GM, without the downsides of giving spellcasters even more versatility.
lol did you just make the sorclock argument? dude 90 percent of games dont make it to 20th level thats an extremely rare example you just used and its not even the pure power of a sorcerer its using the strength of the warlocks eldritch blast and abusing the most powerful cantrip in the game. And its fairly common for a game using milestones to not have a character consistently level up. At the end of the day people should just give things a try and see if it even actually breaks your game cause as it stands everyone arguing about it is just theory crafting. Put it in your game, see if it makes your players happier and if it breaks anything and give honest feedback about it instead of just yelling to the heavens that it SOUNDS broken without ever having put it into practice. Otherwise stop yammering on about something no one has any actual experience with.
I’ve actually used the Ranger features on 2 of my characters in 2 different campaigns and they are FANTASTIC.
DM's who can't handle characters with the ability to fly ad either incompetent as DM's, or lack imagination.
Flying creatures are sitting ducks for ranged combat. Ever see what happens to a flying familiar that draws too much attention? Same thing happens to flying creature. Plus, if you are a flying character, you better make sure you get Feather Fall asap.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Well, an intelligent flyer with a longbow is 600 feet up in the air, out of range of almost every other ranged character. And it could choose not to go inside, or at least have a huge advantage in all outside encounters. Sure a gm can deal with it by only making inside adventures, but what if the character or group dont tag along on my narrow script and instead try to play on their natural strength? Its not exactly strange for an intelligent flyer to try to avoid cramped spaces. Again, I am not saying it cannot be dealt with, but it will force a gms hand in a lot of ways, or force the player to play unintelligently. This kind of power is vastly different from a race with say even +6 strength, which is manageable in a hundred ways even though it could be called "overpowered" numerically.
lol did you just make the sorclock argument? dude 90 percent of games dont make it to 20th level thats an extremely rare example you just used and its not even the pure power of a sorcerer its using the strength of the warlocks eldritch blast and abusing the most powerful cantrip in the game. And its fairly common for a game using milestones to not have a character consistently level up. At the end of the day people should just give things a try and see if it even actually breaks your game cause as it stands everyone arguing about it is just theory crafting. Put it in your game, see if it makes your players happier and if it breaks anything and give honest feedback about it instead of just yelling to the heavens that it SOUNDS broken without ever having put it into practice. Otherwise stop yammering on about something no one has any actual experience with.
Chance Eldritch blast for Firebolt and another cantrip for another element and you have a pure sorcerer. I did also mention this works at every level. My point is not that it looks good at level 20, just that sorcerers dont have a problem with spell selection unless one makes such a problem.
Yeah, but how many rounds does it take for an Aarakocra to get to 600 feet? Six normally, unless you're a rogue or a monk or have some sort of magic to make you faster, which even then still is going to take you a couple rounds with no other actions at least, and mind you with a Longbow that's an attack that's still going to made at disadvantage at that distance. The only other race I can think of that can naturally fly is the Variant Tiefling, and their flying speed is the standard 30 feet. Besides, as a DM there's other tools available to discourage players from doing that. Maybe the party is in a forest and the trees would obscure their view of the battle. Or maybe there's a blizzard. Or maybe it's super windy at higher altitudes. Or maybe having a flying birdman would give away the fact that the party is nearby and alert the enemies you're trying to thwart. There's so many ways for a DM to thwart this type of play, I just can't buy that argument.
Also, I'm sorry but I just have to say, that sorcerer build you brought up just does *not* look like something I'd enjoy playing... (Also, Still Spell? That's not in the Player's Handbook, so unless there's a supplement that I'm not aware of, I'm not sure exactly what metamagic option you're talking about here.)
Well, an intelligent flyer with a longbow is 600 feet up in the air, out of range of almost every other ranged character. And it could choose not to go inside, or at least have a huge advantage in all outside encounters. Sure a gm can deal with it by only making inside adventures, but what if the character or group dont tag along on my narrow script and instead try to play on their natural strength? Its not exactly strange for an intelligent flyer to try to avoid cramped spaces. Again, I am not saying it cannot be dealt with, but it will force a gms hand in a lot of ways, or force the player to play unintelligently. This kind of power is vastly different from a race with say even +6 strength, which is manageable in a hundred ways even though it could be called "overpowered" numerically.
Rope trick, Fog Cloud, Darkness, are simple ways around flying creatures. At 600 feet, you'd have no way of knowing where in Fog Cloud or Darknessa target is located.Who knows, one of your opponents may have Sharpshooter. Believe me, a creative DM has no problems dealing with flying creatures.
A favorite tactic of mine is poison arrows. If you are indoors, underground, etc, odds are your wings are going to be little or new use. A sorlock might be able to hit you at 600 feet rangeand push you out of your range.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Yeah, but how many rounds does it take for an Aarakocra to get to 600 feet? Six normally, unless you're a rogue or a monk or have some sort of magic to make you faster, which even then still is going to take you a couple rounds with no other actions at least, and mind you with a Longbow that's an attack that's still going to made at disadvantage at that distance. The only other race I can think of that can naturally fly is the Variant Tiefling, and their flying speed is the standard 30 feet. Besides, as a DM there's other tools available to discourage players from doing that. Maybe the party is in a forest and the trees would obscure their view of the battle. Or maybe there's a blizzard. Or maybe it's super windy at higher altitudes. Or maybe having a flying birdman would give away the fact that the party is nearby and alert the enemies you're trying to thwart. There's so many ways for a DM to thwart this type of play, I just can't buy that argument.
Also, I'm sorry but I just have to say, that sorcerer build you brought up just does *not* look like something I'd enjoy playing... (Also, Still Spell? That's not in the Player's Handbook, so unless there's a supplement that I'm not aware of, I'm not sure exactly what metamagic option you're talking about here.)
Going from the end:
Sry, meant Subtle spell - which is epic. I don't talk about what stuff people want to play, i am talking about the class' viability. And sorcerer is certainly viable.
As for twarting flying I am not saying it cannot be done, but it really forces a GMs hand, especially when the player(s) choose their own fate. as mentioned, if you can fly and is reasonably intelligent you will try to utilize it. Scout vast areas, find something to hunt down and slay it. And even the enemy can hide/get away, the flyspeed effectively took an encounter from "both parties are equal" to one "one party is spending resources to even the field" I feel like this discussion alone kind of proves that native flyspeed is potentially a lot more troublesome than an inrease in a more stright forward numeric parameter. As a GM I would rather have a player with +5 AC, an insanely high stat or the ability to fireball 3/day. The exception would be if the campaign was generally of the odd type, like an interplanar campaign.
Well, an intelligent flyer with a longbow is 600 feet up in the air, out of range of almost every other ranged character. And it could choose not to go inside, or at least have a huge advantage in all outside encounters. Sure a gm can deal with it by only making inside adventures, but what if the character or group dont tag along on my narrow script and instead try to play on their natural strength? Its not exactly strange for an intelligent flyer to try to avoid cramped spaces. Again, I am not saying it cannot be dealt with, but it will force a gms hand in a lot of ways, or force the player to play unintelligently. This kind of power is vastly different from a race with say even +6 strength, which is manageable in a hundred ways even though it could be called "overpowered" numerically.
Rope trick, Fog Cloud, Darkness, are simple ways around flying creatures. At 600 feet, you'd have no way of knowing where in Fog Cloud or Darknessa target is located.Who knows, one of your opponents may have Sharpshooter. Believe me, a creative DM has no problems dealing with flying creatures.
A favorite tactic of mine is poison arrows. If you are indoors, underground, etc, odds are your wings are going to be little or new use. A sorlock might be able to hit you at 600 feet rangeand push you out of your range.
As mentioned in the reply to the guy above, both Rope Trick, Fog Cloud and Darkness doesn't pose a threat to the flier, it simply gives the enemy means to escape. That is they spend resources to not get killed instead of actively posing a threat. And yea, you could meet a Sharpshooter assassin/sorclock, but how many times should you as a GM add in such elements? my point is that it forces the GMs hand a lot - especially at low levels. Permanent flying at level 10+ is quite fine :)
If flying wasnt so powerful, why is it a lv 3 concentration spell? It is because flying is seriously powerful.
Anyhow, we are so totally off-track with this discussion I don't even recall how we ended here :)
I understand your arguments, but I still have to disagree with them. I guess we can chalk that up more to personal style than anything else. And don't worry, it's the internet, it wouldn't be a normal day without the thread going off-topic or someone wrongfully being called a Nazi (barring actual Nazis, of course). =P
Moving back to the topic at hand, I've been itching to ask folks what they think would be cool replacement features to homebrew. For me, I mentioned earlier in the thread I would have liked a replacement for the Bard's Countercharm, and this morning I had the idea of replacing it with something like this:
Focused Performance: As a reaction, you can expend a use of your Bardic Inspiration when making Constitution saving throws to maintain your concentration on a spell.
Also, on a question pertinent to both this thread and the campaign I'm running, I mentioned earlier that I have a Rogue with proficiency in firearms with rules loosely based on those used in Critical Role, and I was wondering: would it be game breaking/overpowered to let her use her Cunning Action to reload her weapons as a bonus action rather than an action? I reeeeeaaaaally want to throw that out there for her to use, but I'd hate to have to pull it out of the game if it ends up causing problems...
Moving back to the topic at hand, I've been itching to ask folks what they think would be cool replacement features to homebrew. For me, I mentioned earlier in the thread I would have liked a replacement for the Bard's Countercharm, and this morning I had the idea of replacing it with something like this:
Focused Performance: As a reaction, you can expend a use of your Bardic Inspiration when making Constitution saving throws to maintain your concentration on a spell.
Also, on a question pertinent to both this thread and the campaign I'm running, I mentioned earlier that I have a Rogue with proficiency in firearms with rules loosely based on those used in Critical Role, and I was wondering: would it be game breaking/overpowered to let her use her Cunning Action to reload her weapons as a bonus action rather than an action? I reeeeeaaaaally want to throw that out there for her to use, but I'd hate to have to pull it out of the game if it ends up causing problems...
I think this would actually work better in the homebrew section of the forum. That being said, I'd feel mean if I only wrote that....so
Focused Performance: The issue with this is two-fold. The first is that Bardic Inspirations refresh too often and are too plentiful. The second is that it doesnt say when you have to choose to roll.
I'd recommend the following edit
Focused Performance: Using this ability the Bard can automatically make their next Concentration check to maintain Concentration on a spell or spell like ability. This ability can only be used once per long rest. This ability must be used before any Saving Throws are rolled.
I've removed the reaction and separated it from Bardic Inspiration, but I've severely limited it to 1 per day. I've also given an element of gambling to it. You have to choose this INSTEAD of rolling. so you might have passed, you might have failed, but you'll never know. Any player who tends to hold onto their abilities for just the right moment will find this aspect agonizing.
If you think the long rest is too long, you could move it to short rest, but given Warcaster/Resilience Constitution are both things that Bards generally like and avoiding being targeted isn't too hard in my experience playing a Glamour Bard for the last year I think the ability will still only come into play 1 time per day at most. Plus, losing Concentration is generally not the end of the world for me. By the time it drops, I usually have a more appropriate Concentration spell to replace it with based on the changed battlefield.
Well, an intelligent flyer with a longbow is 600 feet up in the air, out of range of almost every other ranged character. And it could choose not to go inside, or at least have a huge advantage in all outside encounters. Sure a gm can deal with it by only making inside adventures, but what if the character or group dont tag along on my narrow script and instead try to play on their natural strength? Its not exactly strange for an intelligent flyer to try to avoid cramped spaces. Again, I am not saying it cannot be dealt with, but it will force a gms hand in a lot of ways, or force the player to play unintelligently. This kind of power is vastly different from a race with say even +6 strength, which is manageable in a hundred ways even though it could be called "overpowered" numerically.
An intelligent flyer would know your a sitting duck at 600ft in the air with no cover and that anyone else with a longbow can still hit you. You don't wanna go inside? ok fair choice but now your party is missing you during the fight inside and you have been 0 help and they may just die. Cool that 1st to 4th level ranger/rogue/archer fighter is always preemptively 600ft in the air while traveling. Neat then everyone else with a longbow is only gonna focus on you and if your not somewhere thats a heavily obscured forest your gonna stick out like a sore thumb as the only thing in the air. How much health do you have at such low level? Oh no now your falling out of the sky and you were so far out of range from your party the wizard cant cast feather fall on you. 1d6 per 10 feet falling for fall damage to a maximum of 10d6. I may just roll you hit point maximum from the fall damage alone and kill you outright. Roll a new character. Its not that strong and I let players characters be flying races all the time and its manageable in hundreds of ways if your willing to just think about it for a few seconds
(A cute thing i like to do after actually speaking with my players is making it to where your essentially still concentrating on flying without it using the same kind of concentration as a spell. So if your hit in the air you make a con save to keep steady or you fall and then need to deal with the fall damage etc)
Mezzurah's comment on Homebrew and Firearms (Mercer) made me think of something that is ACTUALLY RELEVANT to the thread subject! I know, it shocked me too!
all kidding aside.
What are your thoughts on the UA Unarmed Fighting Style with a Order of the Lycan Bloodhunter. Generally, the offensive styles available to the Bloodhunter don't directly help the Lycan Claw attacks, but a lot of the parts of the unarmed fighting style dovetail nicely
Pro: you can switch to bludgeoning damage with your unarmed attacks for enemies you dont want to slash.
Con: You would not get your Crimson Rite damage on the fist attacks.
Big Pro: you can grapple and then add 1d4 damage to all other attacks (your Extra Attack and Bonus action claw attack).
Also, on a question pertinent to both this thread and the campaign I'm running, I mentioned earlier that I have a Rogue with proficiency in firearms with rules loosely based on those used in Critical Role, and I was wondering: would it be game breaking/overpowered to let her use her Cunning Action to reload her weapons as a bonus action rather than an action? I reeeeeaaaaally want to throw that out there for her to use, but I'd hate to have to pull it out of the game if it ends up causing problems...
Firearms, bows, and crossbows are all the same basic idea mechanically; a way to hurl projectiles at range. Crossbows have an arbitrary limitation for preventing multiple attacks that requires a specific feat to remove, and they have slightly higher damage die. Firearms have even higher damage die, but don't have the same limitation Crossbows have. Instead, they just reduce the number of attacks you can make with them, with higher capacity firearms having less of an impact on that.
What you're proposing is significantly less drastic than the Crossbow Expert feat, which *enables* multiple attacks per turn with crossbows by dropping the restriction altogether and also giving them the option to make an extra attack as a Bonus Action, so even classes like the Rogue who don't get Extra Attack can do 2 attacks. For your proposed rule, the player still has to use their bonus action (which is a pretty big deal for Rogues who have a lot of Bonus Actions in competition already) and it just means they'll get to reliably attack every turn, which they would anyway if they were using a crossbow or a regular bow, and without sacrificing a Bonus Action. This is even less of an issue if they have a firearm with higher capacity so they don't even need to reload every turn.
Ask virtually anyone in this board - AL is held up by the vast majority of them as The Golden Standard of D&D, and the best way to play the game. Many players scoff at any sort of homebrew or deviation from the rulebooks, considering it to be little different than cheat code mods in an Elder Scrolls game or the like and decrying any attempt at breaking beyond the books to be broken, poorly designed and unfun nonsense - generally before they've even read it.
My group, lucky for me, is different. I don't know how anybody here has any actual fun tho x_x
I think you really over-estimate how many people actually follow AL rules. What they are, is a great benchmark...if it's AL legal you're not likely to hear many complaints about it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Also, on a question pertinent to both this thread and the campaign I'm running, I mentioned earlier that I have a Rogue with proficiency in firearms with rules loosely based on those used in Critical Role, and I was wondering: would it be game breaking/overpowered to let her use her Cunning Action to reload her weapons as a bonus action rather than an action? I reeeeeaaaaally want to throw that out there for her to use, but I'd hate to have to pull it out of the game if it ends up causing problems...
Go with a feat imo. Crossbow expert does essentially that for crossbows. She would ignore the loading property of the weapon...basically she's adept at reloading so it costs no action. In my mind crossbow=firearm so I don't see why it would be problematic at all.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Ask virtually anyone in this board - AL is held up by the vast majority of them as The Golden Standard of D&D, and the best way to play the game. Many players scoff at any sort of homebrew or deviation from the rulebooks, considering it to be little different than cheat code mods in an Elder Scrolls game or the like and decrying any attempt at breaking beyond the books to be broken, poorly designed and unfun nonsense - generally before they've even read it.
My group, lucky for me, is different. I don't know how anybody here has any actual fun tho x_x
I think you really over-estimate how many people actually follow AL rules. What they are, is a great benchmark...if it's AL legal you're not likely to hear many complaints about it.
I agree with you. Just curious if there are any statistics or proxy measures of what percentage of D&D 5e players are actually involved in AL? To me, AL sort of defeats the purpose of playing D&D by bringing way too much structure and regiment to a pursuit that is by its very nature free-flowing and imagination-driven. But's maybe that's just me!
Yeah, but how many rounds does it take for an Aarakocra to get to 600 feet? Six normally, unless you're a rogue or a monk or have some sort of magic to make you faster, which even then still is going to take you a couple rounds with no other actions at least, and mind you with a Longbow that's an attack that's still going to made at disadvantage at that distance. The only other race I can think of that can naturally fly is the Variant Tiefling, and their flying speed is the standard 30 feet. Besides, as a DM there's other tools available to discourage players from doing that. Maybe the party is in a forest and the trees would obscure their view of the battle. Or maybe there's a blizzard. Or maybe it's super windy at higher altitudes. Or maybe having a flying birdman would give away the fact that the party is nearby and alert the enemies you're trying to thwart. There's so many ways for a DM to thwart this type of play, I just can't buy that argument.
Also, I'm sorry but I just have to say, that sorcerer build you brought up just does *not* look like something I'd enjoy playing... (Also, Still Spell? That's not in the Player's Handbook, so unless there's a supplement that I'm not aware of, I'm not sure exactly what metamagic option you're talking about here.)
Going from the end:
Sry, meant Subtle spell - which is epic. I don't talk about what stuff people want to play, i am talking about the class' viability. And sorcerer is certainly viable.
As for twarting flying I am not saying it cannot be done, but it really forces a GMs hand, especially when the player(s) choose their own fate. as mentioned, if you can fly and is reasonably intelligent you will try to utilize it. Scout vast areas, find something to hunt down and slay it. And even the enemy can hide/get away, the flyspeed effectively took an encounter from "both parties are equal" to one "one party is spending resources to even the field" I feel like this discussion alone kind of proves that native flyspeed is potentially a lot more troublesome than an inrease in a more stright forward numeric parameter. As a GM I would rather have a player with +5 AC, an insanely high stat or the ability to fireball 3/day. The exception would be if the campaign was generally of the odd type, like an interplanar campaign.
Nothing ever, ever forces the DM's hand. Sure the DM may be tricked by his/her players,but if a character has been allowed flying by the DM's the DM should know what he is getting into and have prepared his encounters with all the players in mind. (ie: an emeny encounter has Aracktota or winged tiefling).
One of my favorite encounters that involved a winded character scouting at max range was when the rest of the party wandered into a portal to the feywild which closed 1 round after the last individual entered in a single round. By the time the flyer reached the portal it was already closed and the player had to sit out the encounter. I have always been of the mindset that if the character is capable of some action, or wants to try somethign stupid, I let them. But . . . I also warn my groups in advance that actions may have conswquences, even/especially stupid ones. :)
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Another recent encounter with flying creatures just came to mind from an encounter I was running with harpies. The party had no flyers, but they did have a hexblade warlock, a sorcerer, and a wizard.
After suriving a first round against the harpies who where aremed with longbows and firing at long range (disadvantage), the warlock came up with a plan which he informed the party of. He would cast Darkness, the wizard would cast Rope Trick, and all but the wizard would use Readied actions to climb into the extra-dimensional space. This would lave only the sorcerer and the warlock out side the space..
The warlock had rolled a 21 initiative (19+2). The sorcerer used the Invisibility spell. The harpies fired randomly into the darkness and didn't get lucky..
On his round, the warlock driopped his darkness so the harpies could see him climbing and disappearing into mid-air.
Thinking the players were hiding behind illusion, the harpies tested the situation going so far as to have one of their number go into freefall then use its actual movement to fly through what thought was the area of a silent image. When nothing happened, the rest of the harpies repeated the scouts actions, coming in to investigate. The sorcerer let loose with his best fireball, enhanced with metamagice. The rest of the party came out of the space to finish off the harpies except for one who through luck got away bloodied.
This encounter took place in Droaam in Eberron. The harpies had served in the Last War and knew how to work together drawing on their war time experiences. Unfortunately, the adventurers worked together, came up with a plan, and got lucky in that plans implementation.
Is flying a powerful ability? Yes, but it doesn't make the flyer invincible.
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Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
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DMS that lack the creative ability to deal with a 1st level character that has mobility. Enemies with short bows, javelins, long bows, heavy crossbows or ranged spells easily deal with the issue, having a fight take place in a building or cave or dungeon deals with it etc. Or the unthinkable. Having a conversation with the player and ask them to not abuse the feature into the ground to the point where other players think its unfair or to where you are forced to knock them out of the sky constantly.
lol did you just make the sorclock argument? dude 90 percent of games dont make it to 20th level thats an extremely rare example you just used and its not even the pure power of a sorcerer its using the strength of the warlocks eldritch blast and abusing the most powerful cantrip in the game. And its fairly common for a game using milestones to not have a character consistently level up. At the end of the day people should just give things a try and see if it even actually breaks your game cause as it stands everyone arguing about it is just theory crafting. Put it in your game, see if it makes your players happier and if it breaks anything and give honest feedback about it instead of just yelling to the heavens that it SOUNDS broken without ever having put it into practice. Otherwise stop yammering on about something no one has any actual experience with.
I’ve actually used the Ranger features on 2 of my characters in 2 different campaigns and they are FANTASTIC.
DM's who can't handle characters with the ability to fly ad either incompetent as DM's, or lack imagination.
Flying creatures are sitting ducks for ranged combat. Ever see what happens to a flying familiar that draws too much attention? Same thing happens to flying creature. Plus, if you are a flying character, you better make sure you get Feather Fall asap.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Well, an intelligent flyer with a longbow is 600 feet up in the air, out of range of almost every other ranged character. And it could choose not to go inside, or at least have a huge advantage in all outside encounters. Sure a gm can deal with it by only making inside adventures, but what if the character or group dont tag along on my narrow script and instead try to play on their natural strength? Its not exactly strange for an intelligent flyer to try to avoid cramped spaces. Again, I am not saying it cannot be dealt with, but it will force a gms hand in a lot of ways, or force the player to play unintelligently. This kind of power is vastly different from a race with say even +6 strength, which is manageable in a hundred ways even though it could be called "overpowered" numerically.
Chance Eldritch blast for Firebolt and another cantrip for another element and you have a pure sorcerer. I did also mention this works at every level. My point is not that it looks good at level 20, just that sorcerers dont have a problem with spell selection unless one makes such a problem.
Yeah, but how many rounds does it take for an Aarakocra to get to 600 feet? Six normally, unless you're a rogue or a monk or have some sort of magic to make you faster, which even then still is going to take you a couple rounds with no other actions at least, and mind you with a Longbow that's an attack that's still going to made at disadvantage at that distance. The only other race I can think of that can naturally fly is the Variant Tiefling, and their flying speed is the standard 30 feet. Besides, as a DM there's other tools available to discourage players from doing that. Maybe the party is in a forest and the trees would obscure their view of the battle. Or maybe there's a blizzard. Or maybe it's super windy at higher altitudes. Or maybe having a flying birdman would give away the fact that the party is nearby and alert the enemies you're trying to thwart. There's so many ways for a DM to thwart this type of play, I just can't buy that argument.
Also, I'm sorry but I just have to say, that sorcerer build you brought up just does *not* look like something I'd enjoy playing... (Also, Still Spell? That's not in the Player's Handbook, so unless there's a supplement that I'm not aware of, I'm not sure exactly what metamagic option you're talking about here.)
Rope trick, Fog Cloud, Darkness, are simple ways around flying creatures. At 600 feet, you'd have no way of knowing where in Fog Cloud or Darknessa target is located.Who knows, one of your opponents may have Sharpshooter. Believe me, a creative DM has no problems dealing with flying creatures.
A favorite tactic of mine is poison arrows. If you are indoors, underground, etc, odds are your wings are going to be little or new use. A sorlock might be able to hit you at 600 feet rangeand push you out of your range.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Going from the end:
Sry, meant Subtle spell - which is epic.
I don't talk about what stuff people want to play, i am talking about the class' viability. And sorcerer is certainly viable.
As for twarting flying I am not saying it cannot be done, but it really forces a GMs hand, especially when the player(s) choose their own fate. as mentioned, if you can fly and is reasonably intelligent you will try to utilize it. Scout vast areas, find something to hunt down and slay it. And even the enemy can hide/get away, the flyspeed effectively took an encounter from "both parties are equal" to one "one party is spending resources to even the field" I feel like this discussion alone kind of proves that native flyspeed is potentially a lot more troublesome than an inrease in a more stright forward numeric parameter. As a GM I would rather have a player with +5 AC, an insanely high stat or the ability to fireball 3/day. The exception would be if the campaign was generally of the odd type, like an interplanar campaign.
As mentioned in the reply to the guy above, both Rope Trick, Fog Cloud and Darkness doesn't pose a threat to the flier, it simply gives the enemy means to escape. That is they spend resources to not get killed instead of actively posing a threat. And yea, you could meet a Sharpshooter assassin/sorclock, but how many times should you as a GM add in such elements? my point is that it forces the GMs hand a lot - especially at low levels. Permanent flying at level 10+ is quite fine :)
If flying wasnt so powerful, why is it a lv 3 concentration spell? It is because flying is seriously powerful.
Anyhow, we are so totally off-track with this discussion I don't even recall how we ended here :)
I understand your arguments, but I still have to disagree with them. I guess we can chalk that up more to personal style than anything else. And don't worry, it's the internet, it wouldn't be a normal day without the thread going off-topic or someone wrongfully being called a Nazi (barring actual Nazis, of course). =P
Moving back to the topic at hand, I've been itching to ask folks what they think would be cool replacement features to homebrew. For me, I mentioned earlier in the thread I would have liked a replacement for the Bard's Countercharm, and this morning I had the idea of replacing it with something like this:
Focused Performance: As a reaction, you can expend a use of your Bardic Inspiration when making Constitution saving throws to maintain your concentration on a spell.
Also, on a question pertinent to both this thread and the campaign I'm running, I mentioned earlier that I have a Rogue with proficiency in firearms with rules loosely based on those used in Critical Role, and I was wondering: would it be game breaking/overpowered to let her use her Cunning Action to reload her weapons as a bonus action rather than an action? I reeeeeaaaaally want to throw that out there for her to use, but I'd hate to have to pull it out of the game if it ends up causing problems...
I think this would actually work better in the homebrew section of the forum. That being said, I'd feel mean if I only wrote that....so
Focused Performance: The issue with this is two-fold. The first is that Bardic Inspirations refresh too often and are too plentiful. The second is that it doesnt say when you have to choose to roll.
I'd recommend the following edit
Focused Performance: Using this ability the Bard can automatically make their next Concentration check to maintain Concentration on a spell or spell like ability. This ability can only be used once per long rest. This ability must be used before any Saving Throws are rolled.
I've removed the reaction and separated it from Bardic Inspiration, but I've severely limited it to 1 per day. I've also given an element of gambling to it. You have to choose this INSTEAD of rolling. so you might have passed, you might have failed, but you'll never know. Any player who tends to hold onto their abilities for just the right moment will find this aspect agonizing.
If you think the long rest is too long, you could move it to short rest, but given Warcaster/Resilience Constitution are both things that Bards generally like and avoiding being targeted isn't too hard in my experience playing a Glamour Bard for the last year I think the ability will still only come into play 1 time per day at most. Plus, losing Concentration is generally not the end of the world for me. By the time it drops, I usually have a more appropriate Concentration spell to replace it with based on the changed battlefield.
An intelligent flyer would know your a sitting duck at 600ft in the air with no cover and that anyone else with a longbow can still hit you. You don't wanna go inside? ok fair choice but now your party is missing you during the fight inside and you have been 0 help and they may just die. Cool that 1st to 4th level ranger/rogue/archer fighter is always preemptively 600ft in the air while traveling. Neat then everyone else with a longbow is only gonna focus on you and if your not somewhere thats a heavily obscured forest your gonna stick out like a sore thumb as the only thing in the air. How much health do you have at such low level? Oh no now your falling out of the sky and you were so far out of range from your party the wizard cant cast feather fall on you. 1d6 per 10 feet falling for fall damage to a maximum of 10d6. I may just roll you hit point maximum from the fall damage alone and kill you outright. Roll a new character. Its not that strong and I let players characters be flying races all the time and its manageable in hundreds of ways if your willing to just think about it for a few seconds
(A cute thing i like to do after actually speaking with my players is making it to where your essentially still concentrating on flying without it using the same kind of concentration as a spell. So if your hit in the air you make a con save to keep steady or you fall and then need to deal with the fall damage etc)
Mezzurah's comment on Homebrew and Firearms (Mercer) made me think of something that is ACTUALLY RELEVANT to the thread subject! I know, it shocked me too!
all kidding aside.
What are your thoughts on the UA Unarmed Fighting Style with a Order of the Lycan Bloodhunter. Generally, the offensive styles available to the Bloodhunter don't directly help the Lycan Claw attacks, but a lot of the parts of the unarmed fighting style dovetail nicely
Pro: you can switch to bludgeoning damage with your unarmed attacks for enemies you dont want to slash.
Con: You would not get your Crimson Rite damage on the fist attacks.
Big Pro: you can grapple and then add 1d4 damage to all other attacks (your Extra Attack and Bonus action claw attack).
Thoughts?
Firearms, bows, and crossbows are all the same basic idea mechanically; a way to hurl projectiles at range. Crossbows have an arbitrary limitation for preventing multiple attacks that requires a specific feat to remove, and they have slightly higher damage die. Firearms have even higher damage die, but don't have the same limitation Crossbows have. Instead, they just reduce the number of attacks you can make with them, with higher capacity firearms having less of an impact on that.
What you're proposing is significantly less drastic than the Crossbow Expert feat, which *enables* multiple attacks per turn with crossbows by dropping the restriction altogether and also giving them the option to make an extra attack as a Bonus Action, so even classes like the Rogue who don't get Extra Attack can do 2 attacks. For your proposed rule, the player still has to use their bonus action (which is a pretty big deal for Rogues who have a lot of Bonus Actions in competition already) and it just means they'll get to reliably attack every turn, which they would anyway if they were using a crossbow or a regular bow, and without sacrificing a Bonus Action. This is even less of an issue if they have a firearm with higher capacity so they don't even need to reload every turn.
I think you really over-estimate how many people actually follow AL rules. What they are, is a great benchmark...if it's AL legal you're not likely to hear many complaints about it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Go with a feat imo. Crossbow expert does essentially that for crossbows. She would ignore the loading property of the weapon...basically she's adept at reloading so it costs no action. In my mind crossbow=firearm so I don't see why it would be problematic at all.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree with you. Just curious if there are any statistics or proxy measures of what percentage of D&D 5e players are actually involved in AL? To me, AL sort of defeats the purpose of playing D&D by bringing way too much structure and regiment to a pursuit that is by its very nature free-flowing and imagination-driven. But's maybe that's just me!
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Don't be Lawful Evil
Nothing ever, ever forces the DM's hand. Sure the DM may be tricked by his/her players,but if a character has been allowed flying by the DM's the DM should know what he is getting into and have prepared his encounters with all the players in mind. (ie: an emeny encounter has Aracktota or winged tiefling).
One of my favorite encounters that involved a winded character scouting at max range was when the rest of the party wandered into a portal to the feywild which closed 1 round after the last individual entered in a single round. By the time the flyer reached the portal it was already closed and the player had to sit out the encounter. I have always been of the mindset that if the character is capable of some action, or wants to try somethign stupid, I let them. But . . . I also warn my groups in advance that actions may have conswquences, even/especially stupid ones. :)
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
Another recent encounter with flying creatures just came to mind from an encounter I was running with harpies. The party had no flyers, but they did have a hexblade warlock, a sorcerer, and a wizard.
After suriving a first round against the harpies who where aremed with longbows and firing at long range (disadvantage), the warlock came up with a plan which he informed the party of. He would cast Darkness, the wizard would cast Rope Trick, and all but the wizard would use Readied actions to climb into the extra-dimensional space. This would lave only the sorcerer and the warlock out side the space..
The warlock had rolled a 21 initiative (19+2). The sorcerer used the Invisibility spell. The harpies fired randomly into the darkness and didn't get lucky..
On his round, the warlock driopped his darkness so the harpies could see him climbing and disappearing into mid-air.
Thinking the players were hiding behind illusion, the harpies tested the situation going so far as to have one of their number go into freefall then use its actual movement to fly through what thought was the area of a silent image. When nothing happened, the rest of the harpies repeated the scouts actions, coming in to investigate. The sorcerer let loose with his best fireball, enhanced with metamagice. The rest of the party came out of the space to finish off the harpies except for one who through luck got away bloodied.
This encounter took place in Droaam in Eberron. The harpies had served in the Last War and knew how to work together drawing on their war time experiences. Unfortunately, the adventurers worked together, came up with a plan, and got lucky in that plans implementation.
Is flying a powerful ability? Yes, but it doesn't make the flyer invincible.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!