So our party is level 12-14. Nobody has magic armor/weapons (+1 or above). Current dungeon has us going against trash mobs with AC 20. People can't hit them....DM gets tired/exhausted because a single combat takes 3+ hours. Of course its going to take that long, players can't hit an AC of 20 50% of the time. One of the players didn't do any damage for multiple turns. On top of that, the mobs have resistance to magic. So the spell slingers are crippled as well.
IMO, trash mobs that aren't important to the story line shouldn't take up an entire session. Nobody wants to spend 8-10 hours of game time slogging through trash/cannon fodder.
So, are none of you playing characters that have magic or physical attacks that count as magic attacks (like monk) after a certain level? I mean, it is pretty crappy to have to slog through a high level game with no magic items, but the 5e system is largely built to accommodate that sort of play. At the 12-14 level tier, your fighters and rogues should be sitting at around +10ish to hit when you factor in just your Proficiency bonus and your attack stat. That's at least a 50% hit rate on the monsters if you do nothing to garner advantage. On top of that your spell casters should have access to spells that do significant effects with a very respectable save DC as well as other features that allow your basic weapons to do magical damage as well.
Sure, combats shouldn't eat up so much time, but is this also a failing in party tactics or is the DM just using crappy monsters that put the party in poor situations? Did you guys not at least invest in silvered or adamantine weapons to get past some damage resistances?
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
So if I have a+10 to hit, given proficiency bonus and a maxed out attack stat....trying to hit AC 20 will miss 50% of the time. If the attack stat isn't maxed out, or if cover is involved its much worse. With 2 attacks a round, there's basically one round in 4 that I'm just not going to hit my target at all. Half the rounds I'm only going to hit once. Silver/adamantine has nothing to do with it.
Again, trash mobs. Super high AC for a low magic campaign, resisting magic = hours and hours just trying to advance past the common trash until you get to the 'good stuff', where the plot/story advances.
What "trash mobs" are we talking about here that have AC 20 and/or magic resistances? And why are they the trash fodder for the boss? Is there a story reason for all of this? Does the DM like grindy combats and you players haven't voiced your lack of fun?
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Yeah, we could use some actual examples. Because right now, my inclination is to say "You're not SUPPOSED to hit all of the time." Even at low levels you've probably only got a 50-75% hit chance.
Metamongoose is right, if you aren't having fun, tell the DM, they won't know to change anything unless you voice your concerns. A good DM wants and will readily take that feedback into consideration.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
In the 12-14 range, you have a +4 or +5 proficiency bonus. By then you uave had 3 ASIs and have no excuse not to have maxed put your primary attack stat. That means everyone SHOULD be hitting at a +9 or +10. I looked at some of the creatures in the MM for CR12-14 (which would be considered a fairly easy encounter for a party your level), and they prettyich all have an AC in the 17-20 range, so yeah, you're about right where you should be at this level.
Now, I'm not totally against you here. I looked up what you're fighting, and as best I can tell, it's a pathfinder creature. This means your DM has taken a monster from a game withuch higher numbers and moved it to 5e, and I'm guessing he hasn't changed the stat blocks to rebalance them for this game. Ultimately, I think you guys are right on for fighting things with 20ac. But I bet he is still treating these as CR6 when they would more accurately be probably CR15 in 5e
Proficiency bonus doesn't hit +5 until level 13, so the people at level 12 in our group are still stuck at only +4. Not everyone has a 20 in their attack stat; for instance, Paladins like to max out Charisma, & some people took Feats instead of ASIs. Our Barbarian for example lost a +Str magic item & his last ASI went to Con. His current Str is 16.
Granted, I have +13 to hit..but not everybody does a min/max.
Either way, it seems that part of the problem is that your DM is using a custom monster from Pathfinder/3.5 and hasn't adjusted it correctly to reflect its power level in 5e. I still don't think that not having magical weapons and armor at higher levels is an issue, as the system is built to handle that. I also think that you, as players, should maybe have a talk with your DM and explain that they might have goofed a bit on the monster choices and that extremely grindy fights are not fun for you. If your DM is amenable, they will alter their monsters to better reflect the capacity of your characters and the game should probably alter a bit so that fights don't eat up hours of gameplay.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
You gave the range as 12-14, so i gave the proficiency at those levels. Not sure why you argued that. By the level that you guys are, more than 50% of the way through the progression tree, there is NO excuse not to have maxed out their attack stat if they cared about their attacks hitting. It's not even min-maxing this late in the game. Between race and ASI even a 12 in the attack stat could be maxed at this point. It's fine to put stats elsewhere, but don't then complain that your to hit is suffering. And if anything, you're +13 to hit is more abnormal than a +9-+10 to hit in that level range.
20 AC at CR 12-14 isn't extraordinary by any stretch of the imagination. Helmed Horrors (CR 4), Ropers (CR 5), and Hobgoblin Warlords (CR 6) all have 20 AC.
Magic items are strictly within the DM's purview. They're not required, and unlike 4th edition, 5th edition's monsters are balanced assuming you don't have any.
Magic Resistance has no effect on spell attacks.
None of those things are serious problems. More likely explanations:
The party's too large and/or players are too slow during their turn.
There's too many monsters in each combat and/or the DM is taking too long during monster turns.
The monster's HP is too high. Monsters with high AC generally have lower HP to compensate, and vice-versa.
The DM is throwing too many encounters at the party.
Erylia, yes well I'm an archer and there's a Fighting Style that gives +2 to hit. Another player (a Sorcerer) managed to purchase a Wand of the War Mage +2, his spell attack is similar to my ranged attacks. I'm sure it makes it difficult to balance the AC of monsters with some people having +7 to hit and others having almost double that.
InquisitiveCoder, it is a fairly large party. AC 20 with 80ish hps, plus each Xill had 4 attacks each. 12 of them attacked us.
InquisitiveCoder, it is a fairly large party. AC 20 with 80ish hps, plus each Xill had 4 attacks each. 12 of them attacked us.
Yeah, that's a problem. A dozen monsters is a lot. Even if they were weak and only had 1-2 attacks that'd still take a while.
The DM should've handled them in groups of 4 to reduce the number of turns, and skipped the attack and damage rolls altogether. The DMG has tables for figuring out how many attacks should hit when using a large number of creatures. Setting a limit of 15-20 seconds per player turn would be optimal too. And if that's still taking a while, I'd have silently reduced the HP of some of them (while still staying within the bounds of what their hit dice can roll).
Your only option is to talk to the DM and explain that you didn't have fun last session.
The problem here seems clear, to me, that the DM is engineering this situation even though it makes them "tired/exhausted" because things take so long and the players aren't having much fun with it.
Xill, as far as I can tell, haven't been given an official write up in 5th edition rules yet, so the DM is home-brewing a conversion of them. Arriving at 20-ish AC for them is likely the result of either A) choosing to have them all wear plate armor and carry shields, or B) converting whatever natural armor or other sort of AC-boosting trait they had in prior editions in a less than ideal way (since most "natural armor' in 5th edition doesn't add to worn armor, and the few types that do are a very small bonus that shouldn't be putting AC in the 20 range without the DM also choosing to have them wear heavier armor).
As others have said, the best thing to do is to tell the DM you aren't having fun because the characters are missing attacks too often, and then hopefully work together to find a fitting solution.
Problem is, I'm not missing attacks....because I have +13 to attack (which is a bit high). Other players have only +7 or +8 and I feel for them and the DM as he tries to balance the encounter.
If the mobs AC is too low, I drop into Precise Shot mode (via Sharpshooter) and do tons of damage. If the mobs ac is too high, I still hit.....for moderate damage and other players struggle to hit at all.
Problem is, I'm not missing attacks....because I have +13 to attack (which is a bit high). Other players have only +7 or +8 and I feel for them and the DM as he tries to balance the encounter.
If the mobs AC is too low, I drop into Precise Shot mode (via Sharpshooter) and do tons of damage. If the mobs ac is too high, I still hit.....for moderate damage and other players struggle to hit at all.
If the other players can't reliably damage an enemy, they can always use the Help action to give advantage to you, or a spellcaster's limited attack spells like Chromatic Orb, Inflict Wounds, Guiding Bolt or Scorching Ray. They could also team up to grapple an enemy and knock it prone, giving themselves advantage on close range attacks for as long as they can keep it prone.
Problem is, I'm not missing attacks....because I have +13 to attack (which is a bit high). Other players have only +7 or +8 and I feel for them and the DM as he tries to balance the encounter.
If the mobs AC is too low, I drop into Precise Shot mode (via Sharpshooter) and do tons of damage. If the mobs ac is too high, I still hit.....for moderate damage and other players struggle to hit at all.
This is a classic pitfall that DMs can be tripped up by; having a character with a huge attack bonus, or sometimes even it just being possible to have that huge attack bonus, leads the DM to thinking they need to up the target for the attack roll until it "matches".
The reality is that there are two main choices in this matter: A) Set "good enough" at a moderate value so that the entire party is "good enough" (i.e. +7 or +8 to hit = feeling like you hit often enough) or better, or B) Make it effectively mandatory to crank your attack bonus as high as the game allows.
People often don't choose A because they think, incorrectly, that a player will be "bored" by hitting all the time - which is very rarely the case, as most players that end up with a very high attack bonus have done so by deliberately choosing to spend resources on getting it because they think it is worth having, and said goal will be achieved and the player feel their choice mattered whether it means they feel like they almost never miss or that they are the only one with a good enough chance to hit - the only thing that changes is how the rest of the group feels, so there is really no logical reason not to choose the option that has them feeling adequate even while another character is obviously better at landing an attack (which it's likely they won't even really notice, because everyone will be hitting more often than not, and the extra damage being dealt if the one character engages their feat is easily thought of as a non-issue because the players not doing that extra damage know it is because they didn't take a feat that gives them extra damage so it feels fair already).
AC is not the only defense! If your group can't find a way to attack and hit between AC and the other defenses maybe you should consider the group composition. How experienced are the other players in 5.0 and the DM?
Also, the non-official Xill is probably the major problem there...
AC is not the only defense! If your group can't find a way to attack and hit between AC and the other defenses maybe you should consider the group composition. How experienced are the other players in 5.0 and the DM?
Also, the non-official Xill is probably the major problem there...
The only other "defense" I can think of would be saving throws.
If the casters, for example as they are the ones who can attack vs save roll easier, have a +7 or +8 to their to hit, I imagine that means their spell hit bonus as well, therefore their spell DC is 12 or 13, and if the mobs have spell resistance there is a VERY high chance they would make the save.
They would still take at least half damage, using the appropriate spells, but it makes the game still dragging and infinitesimal, I think.
As you say, party composition might be to be reviewed, but D&D is not an MMO, a group should not need the "correct composition" as there shouldn't be one, or at least there should not be an incorrect one.
I just think the balancing done by the DM is off, because he probably fears that if the characters do not struggle in a fight they would get bored, and he couldn't be more wrong, imho. A very difficult fight is certainly an interesting option, but that fight should also have meaning for the current storyline: a mid-adventure boss general of the BBEG, a powerful.monster guarding an important object or location. Prolonged fights with what should be cannon fodder enemies is only a nuisance and counterproductive, regardless of how powerful the party might be.
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Hey,
So our party is level 12-14. Nobody has magic armor/weapons (+1 or above). Current dungeon has us going against trash mobs with AC 20. People can't hit them....DM gets tired/exhausted because a single combat takes 3+ hours. Of course its going to take that long, players can't hit an AC of 20 50% of the time. One of the players didn't do any damage for multiple turns. On top of that, the mobs have resistance to magic. So the spell slingers are crippled as well.
IMO, trash mobs that aren't important to the story line shouldn't take up an entire session. Nobody wants to spend 8-10 hours of game time slogging through trash/cannon fodder.
So, are none of you playing characters that have magic or physical attacks that count as magic attacks (like monk) after a certain level? I mean, it is pretty crappy to have to slog through a high level game with no magic items, but the 5e system is largely built to accommodate that sort of play. At the 12-14 level tier, your fighters and rogues should be sitting at around +10ish to hit when you factor in just your Proficiency bonus and your attack stat. That's at least a 50% hit rate on the monsters if you do nothing to garner advantage. On top of that your spell casters should have access to spells that do significant effects with a very respectable save DC as well as other features that allow your basic weapons to do magical damage as well.
Sure, combats shouldn't eat up so much time, but is this also a failing in party tactics or is the DM just using crappy monsters that put the party in poor situations? Did you guys not at least invest in silvered or adamantine weapons to get past some damage resistances?
So if I have a+10 to hit, given proficiency bonus and a maxed out attack stat....trying to hit AC 20 will miss 50% of the time. If the attack stat isn't maxed out, or if cover is involved its much worse. With 2 attacks a round, there's basically one round in 4 that I'm just not going to hit my target at all. Half the rounds I'm only going to hit once. Silver/adamantine has nothing to do with it.
Again, trash mobs. Super high AC for a low magic campaign, resisting magic = hours and hours just trying to advance past the common trash until you get to the 'good stuff', where the plot/story advances.
What "trash mobs" are we talking about here that have AC 20 and/or magic resistances? And why are they the trash fodder for the boss? Is there a story reason for all of this? Does the DM like grindy combats and you players haven't voiced your lack of fun?
Yeah, we could use some actual examples. Because right now, my inclination is to say "You're not SUPPOSED to hit all of the time." Even at low levels you've probably only got a 50-75% hit chance.
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
Erylia, yeah...not hit ALL the time. But some people in the party don't even have +10 to hit. So that's like a 25-50% hit rate.
Meta, we're fighting some Xill.
Metamongoose is right, if you aren't having fun, tell the DM, they won't know to change anything unless you voice your concerns. A good DM wants and will readily take that feedback into consideration.
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"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
In the 12-14 range, you have a +4 or +5 proficiency bonus. By then you uave had 3 ASIs and have no excuse not to have maxed put your primary attack stat. That means everyone SHOULD be hitting at a +9 or +10. I looked at some of the creatures in the MM for CR12-14 (which would be considered a fairly easy encounter for a party your level), and they prettyich all have an AC in the 17-20 range, so yeah, you're about right where you should be at this level.
Now, I'm not totally against you here. I looked up what you're fighting, and as best I can tell, it's a pathfinder creature. This means your DM has taken a monster from a game withuch higher numbers and moved it to 5e, and I'm guessing he hasn't changed the stat blocks to rebalance them for this game. Ultimately, I think you guys are right on for fighting things with 20ac. But I bet he is still treating these as CR6 when they would more accurately be probably CR15 in 5e
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
Proficiency bonus doesn't hit +5 until level 13, so the people at level 12 in our group are still stuck at only +4. Not everyone has a 20 in their attack stat; for instance, Paladins like to max out Charisma, & some people took Feats instead of ASIs. Our Barbarian for example lost a +Str magic item & his last ASI went to Con. His current Str is 16.
Granted, I have +13 to hit..but not everybody does a min/max.
Either way, it seems that part of the problem is that your DM is using a custom monster from Pathfinder/3.5 and hasn't adjusted it correctly to reflect its power level in 5e. I still don't think that not having magical weapons and armor at higher levels is an issue, as the system is built to handle that. I also think that you, as players, should maybe have a talk with your DM and explain that they might have goofed a bit on the monster choices and that extremely grindy fights are not fun for you. If your DM is amenable, they will alter their monsters to better reflect the capacity of your characters and the game should probably alter a bit so that fights don't eat up hours of gameplay.
You gave the range as 12-14, so i gave the proficiency at those levels. Not sure why you argued that. By the level that you guys are, more than 50% of the way through the progression tree, there is NO excuse not to have maxed out their attack stat if they cared about their attacks hitting. It's not even min-maxing this late in the game. Between race and ASI even a 12 in the attack stat could be maxed at this point. It's fine to put stats elsewhere, but don't then complain that your to hit is suffering. And if anything, you're +13 to hit is more abnormal than a +9-+10 to hit in that level range.
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
20 AC at CR 12-14 isn't extraordinary by any stretch of the imagination. Helmed Horrors (CR 4), Ropers (CR 5), and Hobgoblin Warlords (CR 6) all have 20 AC.
Magic items are strictly within the DM's purview. They're not required, and unlike 4th edition, 5th edition's monsters are balanced assuming you don't have any.
Magic Resistance has no effect on spell attacks.
None of those things are serious problems. More likely explanations:
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Erylia, yes well I'm an archer and there's a Fighting Style that gives +2 to hit. Another player (a Sorcerer) managed to purchase a Wand of the War Mage +2, his spell attack is similar to my ranged attacks. I'm sure it makes it difficult to balance the AC of monsters with some people having +7 to hit and others having almost double that.
InquisitiveCoder, it is a fairly large party. AC 20 with 80ish hps, plus each Xill had 4 attacks each. 12 of them attacked us.
Yeah, that's a problem. A dozen monsters is a lot. Even if they were weak and only had 1-2 attacks that'd still take a while.
The DM should've handled them in groups of 4 to reduce the number of turns, and skipped the attack and damage rolls altogether. The DMG has tables for figuring out how many attacks should hit when using a large number of creatures. Setting a limit of 15-20 seconds per player turn would be optimal too. And if that's still taking a while, I'd have silently reduced the HP of some of them (while still staying within the bounds of what their hit dice can roll).
Your only option is to talk to the DM and explain that you didn't have fun last session.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The problem here seems clear, to me, that the DM is engineering this situation even though it makes them "tired/exhausted" because things take so long and the players aren't having much fun with it.
Xill, as far as I can tell, haven't been given an official write up in 5th edition rules yet, so the DM is home-brewing a conversion of them. Arriving at 20-ish AC for them is likely the result of either A) choosing to have them all wear plate armor and carry shields, or B) converting whatever natural armor or other sort of AC-boosting trait they had in prior editions in a less than ideal way (since most "natural armor' in 5th edition doesn't add to worn armor, and the few types that do are a very small bonus that shouldn't be putting AC in the 20 range without the DM also choosing to have them wear heavier armor).
As others have said, the best thing to do is to tell the DM you aren't having fun because the characters are missing attacks too often, and then hopefully work together to find a fitting solution.
Problem is, I'm not missing attacks....because I have +13 to attack (which is a bit high). Other players have only +7 or +8 and I feel for them and the DM as he tries to balance the encounter.
If the mobs AC is too low, I drop into Precise Shot mode (via Sharpshooter) and do tons of damage. If the mobs ac is too high, I still hit.....for moderate damage and other players struggle to hit at all.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
AC is not the only defense! If your group can't find a way to attack and hit between AC and the other defenses maybe you should consider the group composition. How experienced are the other players in 5.0 and the DM?
Also, the non-official Xill is probably the major problem there...
"...the absence of war does not mean peace.."
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games