I am wondering about the Artificer Infusions - let's say you want to replicate a magical item. First you need a similar magical item (or at least some sort of basic material that is similar to the original, like a ring for a ring, a pair of boots for a pair of boots, etc.)
Besides finding the material, is it instant? Do you just touch it and it's done? This seems somewhat anticlimactic or boring to me. I am thinking that even if it's not a minimum amount of time required, it should at least be somewhat dramatic or interesting - more interesting than just touching something, and bam, it's magically a copy of another magical item.
The instant version makes it feel like you are basically pushing a button and it's done, which seems somewhat... lame.
It requires a long rest for you to infuse an item. You're using your downtime to tinker and create it.
If you mean that there is no associated quest for materials or whatever, I guess the DM could homebrew a system, but it would make it even harder and less worth it for a class that already isn't exactly at S-Tier level.
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If you mean that there is no associated quest for materials or whatever, I guess the DM could homebrew a system, but it would make it even harder and less worth it for a class that already isn't exactly at S-Tier level.
When Artificer was in UA, there was a lot more language in the class description encouraging the roleplay of the class. It described things like imagining your spells as individual inventions, and when preparing spells it encourages imagining it as deconstructing one invention and using its component parts to create something else. Infusions got less descriptions, but similarly encouraged treating it as though you are using your Long Rest to tinker with objects and repurpose parts for creating new infusions.
They eventually dropped that language because it creates some confusion... if, say, your Cure Wounds is accomplished by having a little automaton that sews together wounds or whatever, then why don't you have access to an automaton at all times? If Acid Splash is actual acid in vials you throw at enemies, why can't you just pour all your infinite acid into a big tub and dump it on somebody to deal massive acid damage? So a lot of the flavor was scraped off of the Artificer until the focus became on the entirely mechanical functions of your class features, and any flavor beyond that is entirely up to you and your DM. So, in pure function... yes, you just complete a long rest, touch an object and it's now a magic object with no further description necessary on your part. But you're free to imagine accomplishing it in any way you want.
If you mean that there is no associated quest for materials or whatever, I guess the DM could homebrew a system, but it would make it even harder and less worth it for a class that already isn't exactly at S-Tier level.
Artificer is very much S-tier.
Artificer is very good, but given there are only 13 classes, I don't feel like you should call more than 3 of them S tier, and for me that would be Cleric, Paladin, and Wizard.
If you mean that there is no associated quest for materials or whatever, I guess the DM could homebrew a system, but it would make it even harder and less worth it for a class that already isn't exactly at S-Tier level.
Artificer is very much S-tier.
Artificer is very good, but given there are only 13 classes, I don't feel like you should call more than 3 of them S tier, and for me that would be Cleric, Paladin, and Wizard.
S-tier is subjective though? So they're perfectly fine calling Artificer S-Tier if they want.
It requires a long rest for you to infuse an item. You're using your downtime to tinker and create it.
If you mean that there is no associated quest for materials or whatever, I guess the DM could homebrew a system, but it would make it even harder and less worth it for a class that already isn't exactly at S-Tier level.
The Artificer may not be S-tier for DPR, but it is most certainly S-Tier in respect to its being a support/utility class.
We should probably have a class tier list sticky somewhere in tips and tactics. The most recent poll I found seems to have a ranking of wizard > cleric > paladin > bard > warlock > druid > artificer.
We should probably have a class tier list sticky somewhere in tips and tactics. The most recent poll I found seems to have a ranking of wizard > cleric > paladin > bard > warlock > druid > artificer.
WHAAAAAAT?! This list needs to be flipped around. Wizards are GARBAGE and Artificers are OP. (Sorry for all the caps, this is just very upsetting.)
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“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
When Artificer was in UA, there was a lot more language in the class description encouraging the roleplay of the class. It described things like imagining your spells as individual inventions, and when preparing spells it encourages imagining it as deconstructing one invention and using its component parts to create something else. Infusions got less descriptions, but similarly encouraged treating it as though you are using your Long Rest to tinker with objects and repurpose parts for creating new infusions.
They eventually dropped that language because it creates some confusion... if, say, your Cure Wounds is accomplished by having a little automaton that sews together wounds or whatever, then why don't you have access to an automaton at all times? If Acid Splash is actual acid in vials you throw at enemies, why can't you just pour all your infinite acid into a big tub and dump it on somebody to deal massive acid damage? So a lot of the flavor was scraped off of the Artificer until the focus became on the entirely mechanical functions of your class features, and any flavor beyond that is entirely up to you and your DM. So, in pure function... yes, you just complete a long rest, touch an object and it's now a magic object with no further description necessary on your part. But you're free to imagine accomplishing it in any way you want.
There's still this quote-block in the Artificer class description, with the suggestions for flavoring spellcasting and preparation:
THE MAGIC OF ARTIFICE
As an artificer, you use tools when you cast your spells. When describing your spellcasting, think about how you’re using a tool to perform the spell effect. If you cast cure wounds using alchemist’s supplies, you could be quickly producing a salve. If you cast it using tinker’s tools, you might have a miniature mechanical spider that binds wounds. When you cast poison spray, you could fling foul chemicals or use a wand that spits venom. The effect of the spell is the same as for a spellcaster of any other class, but your method of spellcasting is special.
The same principle applies when you prepare your spells. As an artificer, you don’t study a spellbook or pray to prepare your spells. Instead, you work with your tools and create the specialized items you’ll use to produce your effects. If you replace cure wounds with heat metal, you might be altering the device you use to heal—perhaps modifying a tool so that it channels heat instead of healing energy.
Such details don’t limit you in any way or provide you with any benefit beyond the spell’s effects. You don’t have to justify how you’re using tools to cast a spell. But describing your spellcasting creatively is a fun way to distinguish yourself from other spellcasters.
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Well, looking at the poll, it seems that Artificers are (currently) 6th place for a place in a four player party (and while the gap between it and last place is not significant, the gap between Artificer and 5th place is quite substantial - enough that there is a definite pseudo-tier system and Artificer is the wrong side of it to be a favourite pick). In the vote on which is the "best" class, it is joint 7th.
There are a lot of different things you could say from those results, but that the Artificer is should be considered "S-Tier", which is to say the best of the best, is not really one of them, I think.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well, looking at the poll, it seems that Artificers are (currently) 6th place for a place in a four player party (and while the gap between it and last place is not significant, the gap between Artificer and 5th place is quite substantial - enough that there is a definite pseudo-tier system and Artificer is the wrong side of it to be a favourite pick). In the vote on which is the "best" class, it is joint 7th.
There are a lot of different things you could say from those results, but that the Artificer is should be considered "S-Tier", which is to say the best of the best, is not really one of them, I think.
Don’t confuse “popularity” with “quality.“
An undeniable factor that is most likely artificially lowering the Artificer’s standing in any such ranking system is that it’s the only current class not featured in the SRD. That results in two things going against it:
Not everyone has access to it.
It forces WotC to artificially limit the number of subclasses they can release for it, and one of those subclasses has a negative stigma because people don’t like the Elixir mechanics as they are written.
If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
Well, looking at the poll, it seems that Artificers are (currently) 6th place for a place in a four player party (and while the gap between it and last place is not significant, the gap between Artificer and 5th place is quite substantial - enough that there is a definite pseudo-tier system and Artificer is the wrong side of it to be a favourite pick). In the vote on which is the "best" class, it is joint 7th.
There are a lot of different things you could say from those results, but that the Artificer is should be considered "S-Tier", which is to say the best of the best, is not really one of them, I think.
I'm interested to hear as to why you believe that the Artificer isn't S-tier. Can you give us a reason why?
If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
What you're describing here isn't S-Tier. While popularity isn't quality, neither is an individual's view on the class, which is why polls, as flawed as they are, are generally a better resource. Regardless, being in top 40% of classes (if you changed the class to make it more popular) by your appraisal isn't S-Tier, that's barely above average. I don't think it's bad, it just really doesn't need such a hard nerf as having to go on quests or have additional costs added to perform their core function.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
We should probably have a class tier list sticky somewhere in tips and tactics. The most recent poll I found seems to have a ranking of wizard > cleric > paladin > bard > warlock > druid > artificer.
WHAAAAAAT?! This list needs to be flipped around. Wizards are GARBAGE and Artificers are OP. (Sorry for all the caps, this is just very upsetting.)
I’m taking your silence as agreement. :P
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“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Here's my take on Artificers as an S-Tier Class...
I've found that Artificers benefit very, very little from multiclassing. Despite only having 4 subclasses, you can create almost any character concept with the class... a support healer, a melee fighter, a tank, a skill-monkey. Any more specific customization can be accomplished through Infusions, which can be shuffled regularly. You get access to your full spell list with Prepared Spells, and the classes are all designed to be extremely SAD (the good kind), so it's very easy to just focus on maxing out your INT.
I think that makes Artificer S-Tier if your version of "S-Tier" means a class that will always be viable in any party build. If I had to compare them to any particular class, I'd say they're closest to Paladins, with some Rogue-like utility, with the added bonus of having everything important key off of INT (unlike Paladins, which need to balance STR/DEX and CHA, at minimum). However, if you see "S-Tier" as, say... who would win in a tournament, Artificer probably wouldn't do so well. There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
What you're describing here isn't S-Tier. While popularity isn't quality, neither is an individual's view on the class, which is why polls, as flawed as they are, are generally a better resource. Regardless, being in top 40% of classes (if you changed the class to make it more popular) by your appraisal isn't S-Tier, that's barely above average.
I don't think it's bad, it just really doesn't need such a hard nerf as having to go on quests or have additional costs added to perform their core function.
I guess that all depends on how one defines “S-Tier.” Again, I’m not saying it’s S-Tier across the board, just that it’s S-Tier in it’s designed role.
Oh gods no, I would never impose such a restriction on the class. That wouldn’t be nerfing it, that would be like tying it up in a pillowcase and chucking it in a river.
Here's my take on Artificers as an S-Tier Class...
I've found that Artificers benefit very, very little from multiclassing. Despite only having 4 subclasses, you can create almost any character concept with the class... a support healer, a melee fighter, a tank, a skill-monkey. Any more specific customization can be accomplished through Infusions, which can be shuffled regularly. You get access to your full spell list with Prepared Spells, and the classes are all designed to be extremely SAD (the good kind), so it's very easy to just focus on maxing out your INT.
I think that makes Artificer S-Tier if your version of "S-Tier" means a class that will always be viable in any party build. If I had to compare them to any particular class, I'd say they're closest to Paladins, with some Rogue-like utility, with the added bonus of having everything important key off of INT (unlike Paladins, which need to balance STR/DEX and CHA, at minimum). However, if you see "S-Tier" as, say... who would win in a tournament, Artificer probably wouldn't do so well. There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
I'll say this at least... I don't, personally, think that any one class is S-Tier. I think that there are S-Tier subclasses within each class, and there are some classes that I think, on average, are far more powerful and versatile than other classes (it takes work to get the most out of a monk, but as long as you're not a complete maroon you'll do fine as a fighter). But there's not a single one class where I feel like you're playing on "easy mode" just because you chose that one.
I am wondering about the Artificer Infusions - let's say you want to replicate a magical item. First you need a similar magical item (or at least some sort of basic material that is similar to the original, like a ring for a ring, a pair of boots for a pair of boots, etc.)
Besides finding the material, is it instant? Do you just touch it and it's done? This seems somewhat anticlimactic or boring to me. I am thinking that even if it's not a minimum amount of time required, it should at least be somewhat dramatic or interesting - more interesting than just touching something, and bam, it's magically a copy of another magical item.
The instant version makes it feel like you are basically pushing a button and it's done, which seems somewhat... lame.
It requires a long rest for you to infuse an item. You're using your downtime to tinker and create it.
If you mean that there is no associated quest for materials or whatever, I guess the DM could homebrew a system, but it would make it even harder and less worth it for a class that already isn't exactly at S-Tier level.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Artificer is very much S-tier.
When Artificer was in UA, there was a lot more language in the class description encouraging the roleplay of the class. It described things like imagining your spells as individual inventions, and when preparing spells it encourages imagining it as deconstructing one invention and using its component parts to create something else. Infusions got less descriptions, but similarly encouraged treating it as though you are using your Long Rest to tinker with objects and repurpose parts for creating new infusions.
They eventually dropped that language because it creates some confusion... if, say, your Cure Wounds is accomplished by having a little automaton that sews together wounds or whatever, then why don't you have access to an automaton at all times? If Acid Splash is actual acid in vials you throw at enemies, why can't you just pour all your infinite acid into a big tub and dump it on somebody to deal massive acid damage? So a lot of the flavor was scraped off of the Artificer until the focus became on the entirely mechanical functions of your class features, and any flavor beyond that is entirely up to you and your DM. So, in pure function... yes, you just complete a long rest, touch an object and it's now a magic object with no further description necessary on your part. But you're free to imagine accomplishing it in any way you want.
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Artificer is very good, but given there are only 13 classes, I don't feel like you should call more than 3 of them S tier, and for me that would be Cleric, Paladin, and Wizard.
S-tier is subjective though?
So they're perfectly fine calling Artificer S-Tier if they want.
The Artificer may not be S-tier for DPR, but it is most certainly S-Tier in respect to its being a support/utility class.
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We should probably have a class tier list sticky somewhere in tips and tactics. The most recent poll I found seems to have a ranking of wizard > cleric > paladin > bard > warlock > druid > artificer.
WHAAAAAAT?! This list needs to be flipped around. Wizards are GARBAGE and Artificers are OP. (Sorry for all the caps, this is just very upsetting.)
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
There's still this quote-block in the Artificer class description, with the suggestions for flavoring spellcasting and preparation:
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Well, looking at the poll, it seems that Artificers are (currently) 6th place for a place in a four player party (and while the gap between it and last place is not significant, the gap between Artificer and 5th place is quite substantial - enough that there is a definite pseudo-tier system and Artificer is the wrong side of it to be a favourite pick). In the vote on which is the "best" class, it is joint 7th.
There are a lot of different things you could say from those results, but that the Artificer is should be considered "S-Tier", which is to say the best of the best, is not really one of them, I think.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Don’t confuse “popularity” with “quality.“
An undeniable factor that is most likely artificially lowering the Artificer’s standing in any such ranking system is that it’s the only current class not featured in the SRD. That results in two things going against it:
If it was another universal class with a free subclass and another 6+ subclasses available like all the others I doubt it wouldn’t be in the top 5. When it comes to utility they are on par with Bards and Rogues, and when it comes to support they are almost on par with Clerics due to their unique combination of buff spells and infusions they can hand out. The Artificer really is just that damned good, and all of their subclasses are actually really solid if you can flow with the random elixirs as they really aren’t as bad as people think they are. And if you can’t then at least the other three subclasses are all still very solid choices.
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I'm interested to hear as to why you believe that the Artificer isn't S-tier. Can you give us a reason why?
What you're describing here isn't S-Tier. While popularity isn't quality, neither is an individual's view on the class, which is why polls, as flawed as they are, are generally a better resource. Regardless, being in top 40% of classes (if you changed the class to make it more popular) by your appraisal isn't S-Tier, that's barely above average. I don't think it's bad, it just really doesn't need such a hard nerf as having to go on quests or have additional costs added to perform their core function.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I’m taking your silence as agreement. :P
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Here's my take on Artificers as an S-Tier Class...
I've found that Artificers benefit very, very little from multiclassing. Despite only having 4 subclasses, you can create almost any character concept with the class... a support healer, a melee fighter, a tank, a skill-monkey. Any more specific customization can be accomplished through Infusions, which can be shuffled regularly. You get access to your full spell list with Prepared Spells, and the classes are all designed to be extremely SAD (the good kind), so it's very easy to just focus on maxing out your INT.
I think that makes Artificer S-Tier if your version of "S-Tier" means a class that will always be viable in any party build. If I had to compare them to any particular class, I'd say they're closest to Paladins, with some Rogue-like utility, with the added bonus of having everything important key off of INT (unlike Paladins, which need to balance STR/DEX and CHA, at minimum). However, if you see "S-Tier" as, say... who would win in a tournament, Artificer probably wouldn't do so well. There's a lot of scenarios where other classes will outshine Artificer vastly, and there aren't many where Artificer is 100%, bar-none the best pick, but it's not a bad choice in almost any situation or challenge, which is saying something.
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👆This.
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What that's saying is "A-tier".
I'll say this at least... I don't, personally, think that any one class is S-Tier. I think that there are S-Tier subclasses within each class, and there are some classes that I think, on average, are far more powerful and versatile than other classes (it takes work to get the most out of a monk, but as long as you're not a complete maroon you'll do fine as a fighter). But there's not a single one class where I feel like you're playing on "easy mode" just because you chose that one.
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And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium