I’ve seen it time and time again in nearly ever good guy campaign, no evil alignments, even if it’s not out right side it’s usually just excepted or just no one uses them. So how can an evil person be a hero. Being evil does not mean that you only desire for death and destruction, evil is more classified by doing things for a selfish reason. The first kind of evil hero is the kind of evil person that became a hero for popularity. They follow heroes and defeating evil as a way to boost them selfs up not actually caring for the people they save. Another kind of evil hero is like goals. They may want to take over and have selfish reasons but, they also don’t want the other evil to win. So they team up with the good guys to save they. Just remember this next time you make a campaign, maybe consider letting a little evil in.
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Marvarax andSora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
This sounds pretty,neutral. Having self interested motivation is one thing. But if you are going to claim to be evil aligned what interests you should include things like, the pleasure you feel as the souls of children are crushed as they are forced to watch you end their parents' miserable existance. Otherwise people who do good for the satisfaction of knowing they've made the world a better place are still doing it for their own satisfaction. Those who work to avoid damnation? They're good too.
The thief who steals to line his own pockets, rescues the princess for the reward, but stays long enough to rescue Luke in the last minute. Turns out he's good too.
If Han flead, paid his debts, and never concerned himself with the rebellion again. He'd be neutral, not evil.
That is one of the common misconceptions of evil, that they only care for death and destruction, Han Solo is a great example for supporting your clam, what makes him non evil is that he does care about another’s, and even if he did run evil, no that’s more just looking out for yourself, the things you stated are self centered, but they don’t fall into the evil selfishness. What makes these heroes evil is the fact they just want everyone to notice how great they are, an evil hero will hurt people and do evil things if they can work it for themselves.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Marvarax andSora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
Truthfully Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil characters are hard to run as the PCs/heros of the story. Evil campaigns are difficult to make more then slaughter x village. Possible, but it tends to have the characters killing everyone anyway.
Lawful Evil on the otherhand can be fun, and can even work with the neutral and even good characters in a campaign. They have rules, but are still the ruthless you'd expect from 'evil'.
A chaotic evil definitely would be hard to make but a oh I want to take over the world or some other really evil agenda but then something is trying to destroy the world so they have to team up with good guys, could work but probably not, neutral evil can go either way in my opinion,
You also mentioned evil campaigns, if you ask me the best way to make an evil campaign is give the party something to chase, along with that powerful guards are usually a good deterrent for just slaughter everything, and if don’t want slaughter try enslavement
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Marvarax andSora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
I think your premise is a bit off. An evil character is willing to hurt others to get what they want. Someone motivated by personal gain is merely neutral (probably chaotic neutral.)
Lawful evil is the only evil alignment that can work well with a party of good characters long-term. Chaotic evil characters generally can't be trusted and neutral evil characters can only be trusted as long as your interests align; but as soon as someone makes them a better offer they'll betray you.
Mine aversion to this is purely out of experience. Once you let evil into the party, if everyone is not evil, there will be confrontation between the party members. There is enough of that already between the money grabbing rogue and lawful stupid paladin, I don't need to add "baby punchers" to the mix :P
Play a Neutral character and mix in the evil in equal amounts with the good. You'll certainly have plenty of talking points with the other characters in the party. Just because Evil isn't allowed in a campaign, doesn't mean it won't creep in. I'm currently playing a Hexblade Warlock who is fairly certain his Patron is the Raven Queen. When he gets to sixth level and starts turning the souls of the dead into Specters to serve him for up to a day, I expect we will have some "interesting" conversations about life, death and souls before we ever touch on religion. He's not Evil, per se... but he is certainly not above using things that might be considered Evil to keep those he considers as friends alive. He does have limits. He would not do this to a friend of his, but sees no reason not to use his enemies in this way before releasing them back to the Raven Queen.
Most Clerics are going to have a MUCH different interpretation of what he is doing. Most townspeople would probably turn him out of their town. Conversely, I expect that few will mention anything in Waterdeep... though I'm sure they will turn away. I could be wrong... but I'm sure I'll find out when we get to that point. A "Good" or white necromancer has similar problems...
Even if you allow Evil... a really crafty Evil person will not allow the Good people to realize what he is up to. Self preservation is strong in most of us. Getting away with murder heightens that feeling even more. Coordinating slavery traders against your own party members town / families? A smart Evil person would realize this would get them caught, though might still risk it. If it isn't a long con, it probably isn't worth it. To reach level 15 and realize that the true villain has been with the party since the beginning? That's Epic Evil... and probably needs a very intricate background coordinated thoroughly with the DM. I certainly wouldn't allow it in every campaign... but with a strong argument, I would allow it once...
As I was reading through the reply here the TV series Dexter came to mind, I'd say Dexter embodies Lawful Evil to the T. He was doing the world a service taking out the bad guys, fulfilling his own need, but that didn't stop the cops or any of the other "good" guys from wanting to catch and stop him.
I do admit, I like your "Lawful Stupid"... I'm so glad that isn't the only way to play a Paladin anymore... not that you can convince SOME people of that...
I definitely didn't coin the term, but it's always been a favorite of mine. I enjoy the idea of the 2nd edition D&D style Paladin, but the way some folks choose to portray them is disruptive. Yes you are a force of good, yes you are sworn to smite evil when and where you can, no this doesn't mean you smite every hobo that steals bread. You can do an evil act without being evil (and stealing to survive is only questionably evil). Keeping to the thread here though, if you are an evil alignment, it's not because you stole a loaf of bread. One of the examples they give for Lawful Evil is most Devils...not good company to share a set of philosophies with.
Honestly, the easiest way to play an Evil Character as a hero is play playing them as Lawful Evil. A practical evil person wont go about poisoning people, slaughtering innocents, and releasing plagues. They will go about there means in a more "civil" manner.
A Bard who lies, schemes, and spies with the intent of becoming to powerful member of a kings court through political intrigue. They have no problem destroying peoples lively hoods to get what they want, and if they treat the common can just a little bit better than there predecessor didn't they actually do "good".
Any Caster who can cast Plant Growth (Druids, Rangers, Nature Clerics, Archfey Warlocks, Oath of the Ancients Paladin) can potentially run an extortion racket in agricultural community. Charge high fees in order to ensure that there crop yields double. While its does prey on the anxiety of peasants, it is non violent and can increase peoples quality of life.
So, you've really got two groups of evil characters. Sort of as Jimmop says:
One acts selfishly with no qualms with doing evil to accomplish their goal. 'I want that baby to be quiet so I punch it.'
The other may act within the expected norms of society seeking evil goals, 'feed my dark master wayward souls'
This does not make selfish choices evil, unless you do evil to meet those goals. Doing good to become popular does not mean you are a sneaky evil character. And stealing bread doesn't make you evil unless you punched the baby you stole it from.
I’ve seen it time and time again in nearly ever good guy campaign, no evil alignments, even if it’s not out right side it’s usually just excepted or just no one uses them. So how can an evil person be a hero. Being evil does not mean that you only desire for death and destruction, evil is more classified by doing things for a selfish reason. The first kind of evil hero is the kind of evil person that became a hero for popularity. They follow heroes and defeating evil as a way to boost them selfs up not actually caring for the people they save. Another kind of evil hero is like goals. They may want to take over and have selfish reasons but, they also don’t want the other evil to win. So they team up with the good guys to save they. Just remember this next time you make a campaign, maybe consider letting a little evil in.
Marvarax and Sora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
This sounds pretty,neutral. Having self interested motivation is one thing. But if you are going to claim to be evil aligned what interests you should include things like, the pleasure you feel as the souls of children are crushed as they are forced to watch you end their parents' miserable existance. Otherwise people who do good for the satisfaction of knowing they've made the world a better place are still doing it for their own satisfaction. Those who work to avoid damnation? They're good too.
The thief who steals to line his own pockets, rescues the princess for the reward, but stays long enough to rescue Luke in the last minute. Turns out he's good too.
If Han flead, paid his debts, and never concerned himself with the rebellion again. He'd be neutral, not evil.
Extended Signature
That is one of the common misconceptions of evil, that they only care for death and destruction, Han Solo is a great example for supporting your clam, what makes him non evil is that he does care about another’s, and even if he did run evil, no that’s more just looking out for yourself, the things you stated are self centered, but they don’t fall into the evil selfishness. What makes these heroes evil is the fact they just want everyone to notice how great they are, an evil hero will hurt people and do evil things if they can work it for themselves.
Marvarax and Sora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
Truthfully Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil characters are hard to run as the PCs/heros of the story. Evil campaigns are difficult to make more then slaughter x village. Possible, but it tends to have the characters killing everyone anyway.
Lawful Evil on the otherhand can be fun, and can even work with the neutral and even good characters in a campaign. They have rules, but are still the ruthless you'd expect from 'evil'.
A chaotic evil definitely would be hard to make but a oh I want to take over the world or some other really evil agenda but then something is trying to destroy the world so they have to team up with good guys, could work but probably not, neutral evil can go either way in my opinion,
You also mentioned evil campaigns, if you ask me the best way to make an evil campaign is give the party something to chase, along with that powerful guards are usually a good deterrent for just slaughter everything, and if don’t want slaughter try enslavement
Marvarax and Sora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
I think your premise is a bit off. An evil character is willing to hurt others to get what they want. Someone motivated by personal gain is merely neutral (probably chaotic neutral.)
Lawful evil is the only evil alignment that can work well with a party of good characters long-term. Chaotic evil characters generally can't be trusted and neutral evil characters can only be trusted as long as your interests align; but as soon as someone makes them a better offer they'll betray you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Mine aversion to this is purely out of experience. Once you let evil into the party, if everyone is not evil, there will be confrontation between the party members. There is enough of that already between the money grabbing rogue and lawful stupid paladin, I don't need to add "baby punchers" to the mix :P
Play a Neutral character and mix in the evil in equal amounts with the good. You'll certainly have plenty of talking points with the other characters in the party. Just because Evil isn't allowed in a campaign, doesn't mean it won't creep in. I'm currently playing a Hexblade Warlock who is fairly certain his Patron is the Raven Queen. When he gets to sixth level and starts turning the souls of the dead into Specters to serve him for up to a day, I expect we will have some "interesting" conversations about life, death and souls before we ever touch on religion. He's not Evil, per se... but he is certainly not above using things that might be considered Evil to keep those he considers as friends alive. He does have limits. He would not do this to a friend of his, but sees no reason not to use his enemies in this way before releasing them back to the Raven Queen.
Most Clerics are going to have a MUCH different interpretation of what he is doing. Most townspeople would probably turn him out of their town. Conversely, I expect that few will mention anything in Waterdeep... though I'm sure they will turn away. I could be wrong... but I'm sure I'll find out when we get to that point. A "Good" or white necromancer has similar problems...
Even if you allow Evil... a really crafty Evil person will not allow the Good people to realize what he is up to. Self preservation is strong in most of us. Getting away with murder heightens that feeling even more. Coordinating slavery traders against your own party members town / families? A smart Evil person would realize this would get them caught, though might still risk it. If it isn't a long con, it probably isn't worth it. To reach level 15 and realize that the true villain has been with the party since the beginning? That's Epic Evil... and probably needs a very intricate background coordinated thoroughly with the DM. I certainly wouldn't allow it in every campaign... but with a strong argument, I would allow it once...
As I was reading through the reply here the TV series Dexter came to mind, I'd say Dexter embodies Lawful Evil to the T. He was doing the world a service taking out the bad guys, fulfilling his own need, but that didn't stop the cops or any of the other "good" guys from wanting to catch and stop him.
I do admit, I like your "Lawful Stupid"... I'm so glad that isn't the only way to play a Paladin anymore... not that you can convince SOME people of that...
I definitely didn't coin the term, but it's always been a favorite of mine. I enjoy the idea of the 2nd edition D&D style Paladin, but the way some folks choose to portray them is disruptive. Yes you are a force of good, yes you are sworn to smite evil when and where you can, no this doesn't mean you smite every hobo that steals bread. You can do an evil act without being evil (and stealing to survive is only questionably evil). Keeping to the thread here though, if you are an evil alignment, it's not because you stole a loaf of bread. One of the examples they give for Lawful Evil is most Devils...not good company to share a set of philosophies with.
Honestly, the easiest way to play an Evil Character as a hero is play playing them as Lawful Evil. A practical evil person wont go about poisoning people, slaughtering innocents, and releasing plagues. They will go about there means in a more "civil" manner.
A Bard who lies, schemes, and spies with the intent of becoming to powerful member of a kings court through political intrigue. They have no problem destroying peoples lively hoods to get what they want, and if they treat the common can just a little bit better than there predecessor didn't they actually do "good".
Any Caster who can cast Plant Growth (Druids, Rangers, Nature Clerics, Archfey Warlocks, Oath of the Ancients Paladin) can potentially run an extortion racket in agricultural community. Charge high fees in order to ensure that there crop yields double. While its does prey on the anxiety of peasants, it is non violent and can increase peoples quality of life.
So, you've really got two groups of evil characters. Sort of as Jimmop says:
One acts selfishly with no qualms with doing evil to accomplish their goal. 'I want that baby to be quiet so I punch it.'
The other may act within the expected norms of society seeking evil goals, 'feed my dark master wayward souls'
This does not make selfish choices evil, unless you do evil to meet those goals. Doing good to become popular does not mean you are a sneaky evil character. And stealing bread doesn't make you evil unless you punched the baby you stole it from.
Extended Signature
I don't know why but I am glad that "baby punching" is becoming a measure of evilness.