Hello everyone! Some of you may know me from campaigns, others from my ranting posts about balancing realism and entertainment in D&D. This post is about the latter of the two, but I will keep this short as it's meant to be open, friendly discussion about something I hold near and dear to my heart.
There are a lot of standard weapons and types listed in D&D and they provide a great framework for making and managing characters. However, decades of cookie-cutter placeholders and media have warped our understanding of them. For that reason, I represent a number of videos which demonstrate the more realistic aspects of the weapons we so often reference.
DISCLAIMER: I did not create any of the videos above and they are not officially endorsed by D&D or WotC. The individuals share a passion for studying and rediscovering now-archaic martial parts and have presented there findings, where applicable, in the most comprehensive manner they can. If you enjoyed any of them, check out other videos and maybe even a Subscribe if you so choose. This is only the tip of the iceberg that is Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA) and is not presented as a way to change how you play D&D. It is only a way to say, "Hey. We think up these wonderful stories, and there are people who are practicing certain elements every day."
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Skallagrim & Scholagladiatoria have a lot of great information. I enjoy watching Metatron's videos too, especially when he has a rant. :)
I disagree with the first video you linked on Sword & Shield though - the CombatCon one. This sort of modern competitive weapon combat is nothing like any sort of medieval or ancient weapon fighting, as it's all about scoring points, more like fencing.
Weapon fighting in TV and movies is often pretty laughable compared to more realistic/pragmatic fighting styles. The entertainment industry wants fights to look spectacular and interesting though and, as much as it annoys me sometimes to watch characters add totally superfluous spins, I do like my movie fights to be impressive.
That's a really loaded question, as there are so many different historical styles of combat, that were undoubtedly effective and we don't really know for sure how hand-to-hand combat was in medieval/ancient times - it's experimental archeology with a dose of guesswork. :)
In my experience, the vast majority of attacks that involve spinning, whilst generating additional momentum for an attack, creates a massive window of opportunity for the opponent to strike.
If facing opponents who have a lot less experience/skill, then leaping attacks and spins can be something that catches them totally off guard and causes other opponents to become more cautious (see Achilles in the movie Troy), so they do have their place, but you'd better have judged your opposition correctly. If they're as good as you, or close to as good as you, then you'll almost always come off worse from doing something flashy.
If fighting multiple opponents, then stamina and energy efficiency become a factor. Swinging a steel sword in a 180 degree arc to deliver a massive blow not only telegraphs the blow (your opponent easily sees it coming), but takes a lot more effort than delivering a thrust to the face.
So, to answer, you won't see many spinning attacks or jumping attacks in a practical style, as any advantage gained from using such maneuvers is offset by a massive risk for yourself. It's almost always better to use an attack that doesn't put you at such risk.
(souce: 30+ yrs of experience with various martial arts, re-enactment fighting, and larp combat)
I'm not questioning your credentials :) I wasn't trying to bait you or lead you, but yes, it was an intentionally loaded question because it's a pretty broad statement. I think it's also fair to say that sometimes defeating your opponent in the showiest way popular can be very pragmatic if you're trying to make an impression on your audience (or on your opponent).
Are you not entertained?
Anyway, I digress. I enjoy these videos. Like you, I'm a fan of Scholagladiatoria on YouTube, and I appreciate your analysis. I have always been fascinated with martial combat around the world and through the ages. European combat arts have been getting a lot of historical analysis and recreation, especially in the last decade and I'm here for it.
I disagree with the first video you linked on Sword & Shield though - the CombatCon one. This sort of modern competitive weapon combat is nothing like any sort of medieval or ancient weapon fighting, as it's all about scoring points, more like fencing.
I have to agree that "Sportification" is muddying the waters these days due to the balancing act between combat and competition. HEMA, as a sport, is still relatively young and people were quick to notice its inherently hazardous nature. Many techniques are banned, partly because scoring is a nightmare, and mostly because of the hazards. Though perfectly legal in a real combat situation (because everything else is), you won't see fencers grabbing the opponent's arm and wrenching them to the ground for an intimate close-up of cross-guard. Despite this, many of the bouts I see still use valid techniques and targeting (for invalid, see epee fencers aiming for toes).
What does a realistic/pragmatic fighting style require? What does it necessarily exclude?
To paraphrase Bruce Lee/Jit Kun Do: Keep what works, discard what doesn't, and cultivate the style that is uniquely your own. Combative fencing, let's say 1300-1700, experienced many technological developments in metallurgy, battlefield tactics, and general weaponry. To compound on this, each "country" as we know them today may have boasted dozens, if not a few hundred, Masters during each century. Some derived their lessons from previous Masters, others created a style of their own. What we do know is that the ones who seem to have gotten it right (or at least had the biggest patrons) went on to have their works published so as to spread their lessons across further areas.
History lesson aside, Stormknight hits many of the major points exactly. Many of the flashy techniques seen in media are inefficient at best, outright redundant at worst. Much of this is because of weapon portrayal. A Hollywood portrayal of a German "Longsword" would be a massive piece of steel that smashes through metal in the hands of only the strongest titans. In reality, these two-handed weapons weigh 2-3 pounds and are as much about finesse as strength. The cutting power is derived from technique (yes, much like the legendary/mythical katana), not so much strength.
Technique itself depends heavily on the weapon utilized. In very general terms, spears make great use of their length and a parry-riposte combo flows hand-in-hand as there is nothing catching the head and shaft. Swords "bind" (contact) each other and manipulate through that contact to work in leverage-assisted cuts, thrusts, and open-hand grappling. Axes have a tendency to get hooked on weapons and shields (part of their appeal), so they need off-hand, sidearm, or shield assistance to isolate enemy weapons and create an opening to really use the axe's momentum.
How does this relate to D&D? Take the simple concepts and develop wonderful narrative, but don't get hung up in details. Combat is chaos by it's nature, so the greatest master can be killed by a novice sometimes. Perfect technique may make you fight better, but fighting often devolves into intuition and opportunity after the first few seconds (a 6-second round, for instance). For narrative, remember things like swords are made of the same metal as armor and won't slice mail/plate; cloth armor is surprisingly good at absorbing a cut, but blunt force and piercing tips still hurt; arrows don't impale targets with armor, but they feel like getting kicked by a horse; damage (to HP) is not always bloody or traumatic, sometimes 3hp is a bad bruise.
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Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
One thing this thread has led me to is the knowledge that Houston has a HEMA school... and it's walking distance from my house? Get out of here! I know nothing about the place, but I may drop in and see what they are up to.
You should totally do that! Even if you don't join up and gain another hobby, it's definitely well worth watching people sparring, if you've not done so before. :)
From my totally biased standpoint, I would say do it, do it, do it, do it. HEMA always gets a few weird looks from people (why I say "I'm a fencer", not "I fight with swords") because of what they already know from some of the fringe hobbies. However, the few that I convince to give it a try are always very intrigued by the opportunity, even if they never pick up a sword again. Get in touch with them about a drop-in to check it out, bring some mildly athletic clothes, ask as many questions that come to mind, and touch as maby weapons as they offer. If they let you come to an open-sparring session for a few hours, I'd say don't leave until you have used every weapon you've ever dreamed of. It's especially amazing that they are so close to home, too. If it becomes a regular hobby or growing passion, it's great to have some community access so readily available.
Secondary benefit: Even from a single intro session, you'll find your narrative capacity will grow significantly because you'll have informed perspective. You'll have an expanded vocabulary to start. Then, you'll see how fast a bout can end and how it translates to gaming. Say an adventuter needs 3-4 months to get good and comfortable with the techniques to be truly "proficient" and level 1. With their relatively small pool of hp, you can connect how a deadly weapon (1d8), struck in the right way (high roll), can spell death for some and grievous wounds for others.
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
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Hello everyone! Some of you may know me from campaigns, others from my ranting posts about balancing realism and entertainment in D&D. This post is about the latter of the two, but I will keep this short as it's meant to be open, friendly discussion about something I hold near and dear to my heart.
There are a lot of standard weapons and types listed in D&D and they provide a great framework for making and managing characters. However, decades of cookie-cutter placeholders and media have warped our understanding of them. For that reason, I represent a number of videos which demonstrate the more realistic aspects of the weapons we so often reference.
DISCLAIMER: I did not create any of the videos above and they are not officially endorsed by D&D or WotC. The individuals share a passion for studying and rediscovering now-archaic martial parts and have presented there findings, where applicable, in the most comprehensive manner they can. If you enjoyed any of them, check out other videos and maybe even a Subscribe if you so choose. This is only the tip of the iceberg that is Historical European Martial Arts (HEMA) and is not presented as a way to change how you play D&D. It is only a way to say, "Hey. We think up these wonderful stories, and there are people who are practicing certain elements every day."
Longsword (historical)
https://youtu.be/5zueF4Mu2uM
https://youtu.be/NtS2XImNA_o
https://youtu.be/FHIhMBCOc1A
Handaxe
https://youtu.be/fUDX8n7WDR0
https://youtu.be/nes76hMc0_A
https://youtu.be/hgQzAfA41bY
Greataxe (i.e. Dane or Langobard axe)
https://youtu.be/Z7VyhvpqZT0
Greatsword (Montante/Spadone)
https://youtu.be/DgDcCNNaIRY
https://youtu.be/ht6h0rYJlLI
https://youtu.be/Divj74MyyxQ
Sword and Shield (D&D Longsword="Arming Sword")
https://youtu.be/BUZNJ7ES2pQ
https://youtu.be/QQAjrjlBaL8
Dagger
https://youtu.be/74T6vjInps0
Dual-Wielding (some thoughts)
https://youtu.be/SuQ3dvw0oJ8
https://youtu.be/nes76hMc0_A
Protection Quality of Cloth Armor
https://youtu.be/B64cfXKBm7U
https://youtu.be/ODS7ksbBRuE
Spear
https://youtu.be/WYKjoosrRRI
Rapier
https://youtu.be/efZLw-tlIOs
https://youtu.be/9wDjjLnKRcI
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
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D&D Beyond FoundersHey there Barlow,
interesting stuff and thank you for posting this!
Skallagrim & Scholagladiatoria have a lot of great information. I enjoy watching Metatron's videos too, especially when he has a rant. :)
I disagree with the first video you linked on Sword & Shield though - the CombatCon one. This sort of modern competitive weapon combat is nothing like any sort of medieval or ancient weapon fighting, as it's all about scoring points, more like fencing.
Weapon fighting in TV and movies is often pretty laughable compared to more realistic/pragmatic fighting styles. The entertainment industry wants fights to look spectacular and interesting though and, as much as it annoys me sometimes to watch characters add totally superfluous spins, I do like my movie fights to be impressive.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
What does a realistic/pragmatic fighting style require? What does it necessarily exclude?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
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D&D Beyond FoundersThat's a really loaded question, as there are so many different historical styles of combat, that were undoubtedly effective and we don't really know for sure how hand-to-hand combat was in medieval/ancient times - it's experimental archeology with a dose of guesswork. :)
In my experience, the vast majority of attacks that involve spinning, whilst generating additional momentum for an attack, creates a massive window of opportunity for the opponent to strike.
If facing opponents who have a lot less experience/skill, then leaping attacks and spins can be something that catches them totally off guard and causes other opponents to become more cautious (see Achilles in the movie Troy), so they do have their place, but you'd better have judged your opposition correctly. If they're as good as you, or close to as good as you, then you'll almost always come off worse from doing something flashy.
If fighting multiple opponents, then stamina and energy efficiency become a factor. Swinging a steel sword in a 180 degree arc to deliver a massive blow not only telegraphs the blow (your opponent easily sees it coming), but takes a lot more effort than delivering a thrust to the face.
So, to answer, you won't see many spinning attacks or jumping attacks in a practical style, as any advantage gained from using such maneuvers is offset by a massive risk for yourself. It's almost always better to use an attack that doesn't put you at such risk.
(souce: 30+ yrs of experience with various martial arts, re-enactment fighting, and larp combat)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
I'm not questioning your credentials :) I wasn't trying to bait you or lead you, but yes, it was an intentionally loaded question because it's a pretty broad statement. I think it's also fair to say that sometimes defeating your opponent in the showiest way popular can be very pragmatic if you're trying to make an impression on your audience (or on your opponent).
Are you not entertained?
Anyway, I digress. I enjoy these videos. Like you, I'm a fan of Scholagladiatoria on YouTube, and I appreciate your analysis. I have always been fascinated with martial combat around the world and through the ages. European combat arts have been getting a lot of historical analysis and recreation, especially in the last decade and I'm here for it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
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D&D Beyond FoundersAh gladiatorial combat is another thing altogether, where being showy and impressive can literally save your life, even if you lose the fight! :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
One thing this thread has led me to is the knowledge that Houston has a HEMA school... and it's walking distance from my house? Get out of here! I know nothing about the place, but I may drop in and see what they are up to.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersYou should totally do that! Even if you don't join up and gain another hobby, it's definitely well worth watching people sparring, if you've not done so before. :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
From my totally biased standpoint, I would say do it, do it, do it, do it. HEMA always gets a few weird looks from people (why I say "I'm a fencer", not "I fight with swords") because of what they already know from some of the fringe hobbies. However, the few that I convince to give it a try are always very intrigued by the opportunity, even if they never pick up a sword again. Get in touch with them about a drop-in to check it out, bring some mildly athletic clothes, ask as many questions that come to mind, and touch as maby weapons as they offer. If they let you come to an open-sparring session for a few hours, I'd say don't leave until you have used every weapon you've ever dreamed of. It's especially amazing that they are so close to home, too. If it becomes a regular hobby or growing passion, it's great to have some community access so readily available.
Secondary benefit: Even from a single intro session, you'll find your narrative capacity will grow significantly because you'll have informed perspective. You'll have an expanded vocabulary to start. Then, you'll see how fast a bout can end and how it translates to gaming. Say an adventuter needs 3-4 months to get good and comfortable with the techniques to be truly "proficient" and level 1. With their relatively small pool of hp, you can connect how a deadly weapon (1d8), struck in the right way (high roll), can spell death for some and grievous wounds for others.
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero