George Lucas made the most successful advertisements for toys ever. Step one, make the ad.
STEP TWO: SELL THE TOYS.
Hasbro is a toy company, no? I would have a paid D&D Beyond subscription if Heroforge minis were on here, but it isn't so my love of D&D translates to ZERO dollars for Hasbro, and an ongoing payment to Heroforge.
I cannot understand why Hasbro has not taken over this market. What is going on?
George Lucas made the most successful advertisements for toys ever. Step one, make the ad.
STEP TWO: SELL THE TOYS.
Hasbro is a toy company, no? I would have a paid D&D Beyond subscription if Heroforge minis were on here, but it isn't so my love of D&D translates to ZERO dollars for Hasbro, and an ongoing payment to Heroforge.
I cannot understand why Hasbro has not taken over this market. What is going on?
We’ll see what happens with their VTT. If it allows for you to make a custom mini for use on the VTT, it doesn’t seem like too big a jump to 3D print them for home use. If they can keep up with demand, or at least sell the file for home printing.
Thank God they haven’t purchased Heroforge. That site rocks and keeps constantly improving. If Hasbro bought it they would probably stop almost all development (like they did here) and redirect everything to making it compatible with their planned VTT (like they did here).
I do think that Hasbro/WotC has this in the pipeline and are planning to make STLs available.
Like Sposta though, I'm not convinced this would be a good thing for the market. HF is great in the direction it's going...Hasbro taking it over wouldn't fill me with confidence. That concern might not end up being justified, but at the moment, I think HF should stay independent.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As for what i've heard and read so far (not on DBB), because micro transactions inside their digital "walled garden", will make them more and easier money, or so they think. Why let players only pay once for physical minis and (map)assets, that they can use any time they want, forever, with any RPG System, maybe even getting a repaint, if you can bind them to your VTT and paywall play and features behind tiered monthly subscription services for all participants. Phys. Minis would also create the need to set up (or buy up) production, and generate costs for running it, dealing with work laws etc. if they don't "outsource" it to sweat shops - while having none of these with a digital mini, after designing it.
While the wild customization that's possible with a digital mini (IF done right!) to their liking is awesome for players, it's also awesome for doing business, because they can sell of every little bit of "changeables" charging extra. New robe color? 1,99. New Hairdo? 1.99. (Skins in FPS and other games, especially mobile games) Mace of Windu? Today's special offer! ONLY 5,99. (Offers "rotating" like Blizz did it with Diablo 4) And we'll probably only be licensed to use this digital content, TOS and designs subject to change anytime WotC sees fit. And we all know how that worked out...
Also Special/Limited Editions, using the power of FOMO. - just take a look at MTG.
Also the necessary data for using 3D printers to print at home: Won't happen for the same reasons, plus for intellectual property and copyright reasons.
These are not just assumptions, but actual, common, today-corporate-business-practices for maximum monetization - already applied by other Corporations.
Heroforge is a good product (if you're happy with the pricing) and they're making steps to integrate the models into VTT's already - you can have an STL file or 3d Digital as well as physical so "it's all good". Hasbro in that market will no doubt happen given time, but slow moving due to size and print-on demand's much more niche than kids "screaming for Buzz Lightyear" and there's also the factors of "scarcity" versus demand versus hype etc. Can they sell 1000 Buzz Lightyears? Against your one "Aragorn but played by Nicole Kidman with demon wings" model? Against 5x Variant Orcs?
* I'd seperate Hasbro from WOTC here. Hasbro seems more allied to "big coproate" that answers to shareholders and WOTC seem more "board of Directors that don't understand the company (market) they're in charge of".
I think the worst criticism of WOTC is that they've failed to understand (research) the market and community they're trying to sell to, they've taken a one-size approach and their "innovations" are... doing the same things as other companies are doing Pride-washing etc. (now, I personally believe LGBTQ+ is an important moral issue. Utilitarianism, more people happy is better for society + the world in general). I don't for one nanosecond believe WOTC has anything other than Coproate Strategy/Marketing in mind when they add the Pride branding. They're an entity - not actual people, they're acting as "the company". Whatever the next "social change" movement may be, I expect them to adopt that roughly 2 years after it's gathered enough momentum to be newsworthy (lol) or more importantly socially relevant - needing the support. Sure, it's morally dishonest, but what do you expect from a company that wants your money?Back on track - I expect "sweeping changes" at Board level at WOTC. Although, I could see the future of WOTC as micro-transactional hell, * as a long-term strategy it will alienate the market and I think a poor move strategically as a company.
*roughly 2 years after micro-transactions are over-saturated and starting to garner backlash. Now... I would find it hilarious in another two years to be here and reading comments about how WOTC is hopelessly out of touch with "the market" yet again, but I do love the hobby and D&D will always have a place in my heart, but at this point D&D as a thing is its own story and this is just another messy chapter.
One further thing to consider, for at least the past couple of editions, WotC and then Hasbro has licensed official D&D mini making to WizKids. WizKids minis, I believe from YouTube gushing reviews, are well received ... though their effort at more hands on customization, their Frameworks line, I understand could use a little more to it. I don't know off hand if WizKids sells stls.
There may be some first right of refusal or some other sort of clause that may give first dibs to WizKids as far as endeavoring to integrate and adapt it's miniature lines to the VTT.
HeroForge may have no interest in being pulled into Hasbro's walled garden. I don't believe they're a publicly traded company, and I think, like say DemiPlane of the DDB alumni, they may be more content with the autonomy they have and the ability to sever the entire TTRPG hobby space with their product.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Custom business do not scale very well - not at the scales Hasbro deals in. The machinery is expensive and you’ll spend a fair bit of man hours on the logistical side of things for each individualised order. That is fine for a small company like HeroForge - which, despite its popularity, is still relatively small - but it becomes difficult with Hasbro’s scale.
Then there are quality control issues. WizKids minis, Hasbro’s preferred vendor, are extremely durable—they have a good elasticity to them from their injection mold process; 3d printing tends to use far more brittle materials. That causes problems at a larger company - they cannot easily shrug off quality complaints at the volume of complaint and with a greater press attention. Not ideal for a product prone for snapping.
Plus, it should be noted HeroForge does not mesh well with Hasbro’s current line of minis. They’re too big as they use a larger scale, and they are overly-bulky and incapable of making slight character builds, have cartoonish faces, and otherwise are a completely different artistic style than D&D’s other minis. They are not going to want to take over a company whose minis look decidedly out of place with their other models.
All told, none of this would make financial sense for Hasbro/Wizards and its current brand. They can pretty easily leave that money on the table, and it is probably more efficient to write off potential losses to HeroForge than it would be to try and get into that market.
I think you're right, Caerwyn, but want to note that 1.) the "cartoonish" faces do seem to be more in line with a lot of D&D art directions, and some overall third party and non D&D ttrpg publishing, I think it's something about the default or most common methods to produce character arts, and HeroForge is probably informed by it. And 2.) It looks like HeroForge is starting to experiment with more creator control over facial features, moving more in the direction of video game avatar control granularity (Cyberpunk 2077 being the current "peak" expression of this feature in games).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I cannot understand why Hasbro has not taken over this market. What is going on?
Of course you don't understand. Me neither. How were we going to understand it if we don't know Hasbro's business strategy? You should ask a Hasbro manager that question.
I'd say they almost certainly have. All the things, VTT, mini's, sheets with skill roll and chat interactivity, all the jazz you could ever shake a saxophone at, they've got it all - if not ready to roll out, then at least a solid enough mock-up to decide whether they want homegrown, or they want to go out and buy take-away.
They basically said so themselves: D&D is under-exploited. They are busy little bees, crafting yokes for all of us to stick our heads in. And pay for the privilege. They've just elected to not release it piece-meal, but all in one go - one site to rull them all, and in the darkness bind them. They've got the sharpest minds they can gather, all at work deciding which parts to make free, and which to make premium, and create ingenious honeytraps to eventually lure us all into the comfortable bliss of paying their RPG tax. Thus ridding themselves of all obligation towards actual physical product (other than toys, as was mentioned, which are surely in the pipeline).
I'd say they are spending their time making sure what they have, once they release, will actually sweep the competition aside. They've precious little interest in making the 2nd most popular anything. They want to be RPG Marvel, nothing less. Yoke up that fandom, get the whips aswinging, and ride that boat laughing into the sunset.
I don't know why it's a boat. But it doesn't matter: We're all swimming - and they're on the boat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
This is a good point - and maybe a "pet" gripe, I'm not "down" with the kids and don't enjoy that general aesthetic. If I could insert some of my AI creations easily into something like HeroForge - that would be marvellous. I do keep meaning to get round to "brain training" with TinkerCad (free) and actually make a Main Character in there, being able to do something with maybe a Michaelangelo "base" would be awesome Versus "cartoon-y" standard. For what it's worth, I don't think it'll be long at all before that sort of things starts to catch on (especially with Foundry et al). ...a boy can dream - I'd kill for a Dore/Durer aesthetic main character model - and probably be prepared to pay for it as a one off "treat".
George Lucas made the most successful advertisements for toys ever. Step one, make the ad.
STEP TWO: SELL THE TOYS.
Hasbro is a toy company, no? I would have a paid D&D Beyond subscription if Heroforge minis were on here, but it isn't so my love of D&D translates to ZERO dollars for Hasbro, and an ongoing payment to Heroforge.
I cannot understand why Hasbro has not taken over this market. What is going on?
We’ll see what happens with their VTT. If it allows for you to make a custom mini for use on the VTT, it doesn’t seem like too big a jump to 3D print them for home use. If they can keep up with demand, or at least sell the file for home printing.
Thank God they haven’t purchased Heroforge. That site rocks and keeps constantly improving. If Hasbro bought it they would probably stop almost all development (like they did here) and redirect everything to making it compatible with their planned VTT (like they did here).
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I do think that Hasbro/WotC has this in the pipeline and are planning to make STLs available.
Like Sposta though, I'm not convinced this would be a good thing for the market. HF is great in the direction it's going...Hasbro taking it over wouldn't fill me with confidence. That concern might not end up being justified, but at the moment, I think HF should stay independent.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As for what i've heard and read so far (not on DBB), because micro transactions inside their digital "walled garden", will make them more and easier money, or so they think. Why let players only pay once for physical minis and (map)assets, that they can use any time they want, forever, with any RPG System, maybe even getting a repaint, if you can bind them to your VTT and paywall play and features behind tiered monthly subscription services for all participants. Phys. Minis would also create the need to set up (or buy up) production, and generate costs for running it, dealing with work laws etc. if they don't "outsource" it to sweat shops - while having none of these with a digital mini, after designing it.
While the wild customization that's possible with a digital mini (IF done right!) to their liking is awesome for players, it's also awesome for doing business, because they can sell of every little bit of "changeables" charging extra. New robe color? 1,99. New Hairdo? 1.99. (Skins in FPS and other games, especially mobile games) Mace of Windu? Today's special offer! ONLY 5,99. (Offers "rotating" like Blizz did it with Diablo 4) And we'll probably only be licensed to use this digital content, TOS and designs subject to change anytime WotC sees fit. And we all know how that worked out...
Also Special/Limited Editions, using the power of FOMO. - just take a look at MTG.
Also the necessary data for using 3D printers to print at home: Won't happen for the same reasons, plus for intellectual property and copyright reasons.
These are not just assumptions, but actual, common, today-corporate-business-practices for maximum monetization - already applied by other Corporations.
Heroforge is a good product (if you're happy with the pricing) and they're making steps to integrate the models into VTT's already - you can have an STL file or 3d Digital as well as physical so "it's all good". Hasbro in that market will no doubt happen given time, but slow moving due to size and print-on demand's much more niche than kids "screaming for Buzz Lightyear" and there's also the factors of "scarcity" versus demand versus hype etc. Can they sell 1000 Buzz Lightyears? Against your one "Aragorn but played by Nicole Kidman with demon wings" model? Against 5x Variant Orcs?
* I'd seperate Hasbro from WOTC here. Hasbro seems more allied to "big coproate" that answers to shareholders and WOTC seem more "board of Directors that don't understand the company (market) they're in charge of".
I think the worst criticism of WOTC is that they've failed to understand (research) the market and community they're trying to sell to, they've taken a one-size approach and their "innovations" are... doing the same things as other companies are doing Pride-washing etc. (now, I personally believe LGBTQ+ is an important moral issue. Utilitarianism, more people happy is better for society + the world in general). I don't for one nanosecond believe WOTC has anything other than Coproate Strategy/Marketing in mind when they add the Pride branding. They're an entity - not actual people, they're acting as "the company". Whatever the next "social change" movement may be, I expect them to adopt that roughly 2 years after it's gathered enough momentum to be newsworthy (lol) or more importantly socially relevant - needing the support. Sure, it's morally dishonest, but what do you expect from a company that wants your money? Back on track - I expect "sweeping changes" at Board level at WOTC. Although, I could see the future of WOTC as micro-transactional hell, * as a long-term strategy it will alienate the market and I think a poor move strategically as a company.
*roughly 2 years after micro-transactions are over-saturated and starting to garner backlash. Now... I would find it hilarious in another two years to be here and reading comments about how WOTC is hopelessly out of touch with "the market" yet again, but I do love the hobby and D&D will always have a place in my heart, but at this point D&D as a thing is its own story and this is just another messy chapter.
https://wulfgold.substack.com
Blog - nerd stuff
https://deepdreamgenerator.com/u/wulfgold
A.I. art - also nerd stuff - a gallery of NPC portraits - help yourself.
One further thing to consider, for at least the past couple of editions, WotC and then Hasbro has licensed official D&D mini making to WizKids. WizKids minis, I believe from YouTube gushing reviews, are well received ... though their effort at more hands on customization, their Frameworks line, I understand could use a little more to it. I don't know off hand if WizKids sells stls.
There may be some first right of refusal or some other sort of clause that may give first dibs to WizKids as far as endeavoring to integrate and adapt it's miniature lines to the VTT.
HeroForge may have no interest in being pulled into Hasbro's walled garden. I don't believe they're a publicly traded company, and I think, like say DemiPlane of the DDB alumni, they may be more content with the autonomy they have and the ability to sever the entire TTRPG hobby space with their product.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Custom business do not scale very well - not at the scales Hasbro deals in. The machinery is expensive and you’ll spend a fair bit of man hours on the logistical side of things for each individualised order. That is fine for a small company like HeroForge - which, despite its popularity, is still relatively small - but it becomes difficult with Hasbro’s scale.
Then there are quality control issues. WizKids minis, Hasbro’s preferred vendor, are extremely durable—they have a good elasticity to them from their injection mold process; 3d printing tends to use far more brittle materials. That causes problems at a larger company - they cannot easily shrug off quality complaints at the volume of complaint and with a greater press attention. Not ideal for a product prone for snapping.
Plus, it should be noted HeroForge does not mesh well with Hasbro’s current line of minis. They’re too big as they use a larger scale, and they are overly-bulky and incapable of making slight character builds, have cartoonish faces, and otherwise are a completely different artistic style than D&D’s other minis. They are not going to want to take over a company whose minis look decidedly out of place with their other models.
All told, none of this would make financial sense for Hasbro/Wizards and its current brand. They can pretty easily leave that money on the table, and it is probably more efficient to write off potential losses to HeroForge than it would be to try and get into that market.
I think you're right, Caerwyn, but want to note that 1.) the "cartoonish" faces do seem to be more in line with a lot of D&D art directions, and some overall third party and non D&D ttrpg publishing, I think it's something about the default or most common methods to produce character arts, and HeroForge is probably informed by it. And 2.) It looks like HeroForge is starting to experiment with more creator control over facial features, moving more in the direction of video game avatar control granularity (Cyberpunk 2077 being the current "peak" expression of this feature in games).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Of course you don't understand. Me neither. How were we going to understand it if we don't know Hasbro's business strategy?
You should ask a Hasbro manager that question.
I'd say they almost certainly have. All the things, VTT, mini's, sheets with skill roll and chat interactivity, all the jazz you could ever shake a saxophone at, they've got it all - if not ready to roll out, then at least a solid enough mock-up to decide whether they want homegrown, or they want to go out and buy take-away.
They basically said so themselves: D&D is under-exploited. They are busy little bees, crafting yokes for all of us to stick our heads in. And pay for the privilege. They've just elected to not release it piece-meal, but all in one go - one site to rull them all, and in the darkness bind them. They've got the sharpest minds they can gather, all at work deciding which parts to make free, and which to make premium, and create ingenious honeytraps to eventually lure us all into the comfortable bliss of paying their RPG tax. Thus ridding themselves of all obligation towards actual physical product (other than toys, as was mentioned, which are surely in the pipeline).
I'd say they are spending their time making sure what they have, once they release, will actually sweep the competition aside. They've precious little interest in making the 2nd most popular anything. They want to be RPG Marvel, nothing less. Yoke up that fandom, get the whips aswinging, and ride that boat laughing into the sunset.
I don't know why it's a boat. But it doesn't matter: We're all swimming - and they're on the boat.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
This is a good point - and maybe a "pet" gripe, I'm not "down" with the kids and don't enjoy that general aesthetic. If I could insert some of my AI creations easily into something like HeroForge - that would be marvellous. I do keep meaning to get round to "brain training" with TinkerCad (free) and actually make a Main Character in there, being able to do something with maybe a Michaelangelo "base" would be awesome Versus "cartoon-y" standard.
For what it's worth, I don't think it'll be long at all before that sort of things starts to catch on (especially with Foundry et al).
...a boy can dream - I'd kill for a Dore/Durer aesthetic main character model - and probably be prepared to pay for it as a one off "treat".
https://wulfgold.substack.com
Blog - nerd stuff
https://deepdreamgenerator.com/u/wulfgold
A.I. art - also nerd stuff - a gallery of NPC portraits - help yourself.
"D&D is under-exploited" by Hasbro.
It is thoroughly exploited by Heroforge. I pay them an ongoing subscription, because they offer something for my ongoing D&D needs.
Hasbro offers me nothing, and gets none of my money.
This seems like a problem for Hasbro. I am pointing this out for their benefit.