In regards to summoning as an example :conjure minor Elementals.
Do I as the player choose a CR number in which the DM can choose within that CR number any Elemental he wants. And in the spell description it says I can choose from the fallowing options one 2cr or less, two 1cr, four 1/2cr or less, six 1/4 or less, eight 1/8 or less.
It's the or LESS .I need clarification is that my decision or my DM decision if I say I want a CR 1 can he give me CR 1/4. And can I choose a CR 0
See "When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?" in Sage Advice Compendium.
A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a few examples. Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from. Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower. A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene.
I find the summoning treatment in this edition to be extremely restrictive and "unfun". Why should it be the DM choosing the type of creature?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate that the summoner themselves would know what creature they are summoning? I can perfectly see the non-certainty working in regards to Demons and Devils, creatures that thrive in being summoned and therefore would try to jump at any occasion, possibly even taking advantage of summoning rituals not intended for them, but why would a summoner not be able to summon the Elemental(s) or animal(s) they want? One would imagine there are differences in the way you summon a Water Elemental as opposed to a Fire one, or to summoning an Elk instead of a Tiger, in terms of preparation, words to use, possibly even somatic movements necessary. "I wanted to summon a bear, but instead I got 4 toads..." (<- exaggeration)
In the end, that is what the rules say, but it does not mean they have to always be followed to the letter (Mr. Crawford has been making this repeatedly clear on Twitter lately).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
The reason why it says "or less" is because you do not have to summon the maximum. If the option is "two CR 1 or less" you can choose just one CR 1 if you want. You choose the number, the DM chooses the creatures summoned. However, few people find it fun that the DM chooses, so talk to your DM - in many cases as long as you're not going for seriously stupid combos (pixies and polymorph...) then you will usually get to choose. Mine let me choose when I had a druid, for example.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
The reason why it says "or less" is because you do not have to summon the maximum. If the option is "two CR 1 or less" you can choose just one CR 1 if you want. You choose the number, the DM chooses the creatures summoned. However, few people find it fun that the DM chooses, so talk to your DM - in many cases as long as you're not going for seriously stupid combos (pixies and polymorph...) then you will usually get to choose. Mine let me choose when I had a druid, for example.
The thing it does not say "or less" but "or lower", so it implies lower CR, not fewer creatures.
This does not change the fact that the CR is determined by the player, but still I feel the same in preferring to give full control to the player as to the nature of the creature itself.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I find the summoning treatment in this edition to be extremely restrictive and "unfun". Why should it be the DM choosing the type of creature?
Because the player may not have encyclopedic knowledge of monster stat blocks and there may be homebrew, campaign-specific or setting-specific monsters a DM may be using. A class or spell really shouldn't force you to own a Monster Manual, let alone additions like Volo's or Mordenkainen's.
The rules are written assuming the DM is cooperating with the players, not working against them. The expectation is that the DM will summon something beneficial, interesting, fun, or thematically appropriate. As Sage Advice says, the player can certainly declare a preference towards specific creatures or general types of creatures. In some cases the DM may even be able to give them something better than what they asked for.
The rules are written assuming the DM is cooperating with the players, not working against them.
This. Ideally, the DM and the player work in conjunction with each other. This isn't a game where you screw the player over, or try to defeat the "opponent DM." At least not by default.
The DM, however, gets final say because they might feel that summoning a swarm of sprites and pixies is inappropriate in a frozen tundra region. Or would prefer to have some "frost fairies" show up instead.
In practice, this means that the DM and the player cooperate on what shows up. If the DM wants to give full control over to the player, they can. If they want to keep an abusive play in line, they can. If they want to control what kind of critters show up that fit the campaign world, they can.
I don't think I ever suggested the idea that the DM would summon something useless or counterproductive. I am the first to believe a good DM always works towards the players, not against them.
What I meant is that if someone is interested in summoning, it should be their "worry" to get a knowledge of the creatures they could call upon. Regardless of how it is written, it should always be a cooperation, indeed, but being worded as it is, I feel it could be interpreted as to give way to a "malicious" player to just roll up a summoner-type character and have the DM always have to figure out what kind of creature to have appear.
It's an edge case, I am perfectly aware, that is why I put things in quotations, but it's a possibility, which would technically be supported by the interpretation you are giving.
I don't think I ever suggested the idea that the DM would summon something useless or counterproductive. I am the first to believe a good DM always works towards the players, not against them.
I wasn't trying to imply you were suggesting that, it was just a general remark for why the spell is designed that way. It might seem odd to the OP or other readers that the DM is in full control.
What I meant is that if someone is interested in summoning, it should be their "worry" to get a knowledge of the creatures they could call upon.
Pushing the work on them is going to create work for you anyways. Now you need to codify some rules by which the player can learn about elementals (possibly through Arcana checks, which the player may not have known they'd need) and the player needs to keep track of what they've learned.
Or you can just make a table once you know the player has that spell and either roll or make a judgement call when they cast it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Forum Infestation (TM)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Ok I'm look for rule clarification.
In regards to summoning as an example :conjure minor Elementals.
Do I as the player choose a CR number in which the DM can choose within that CR number any Elemental he wants. And in the spell description it says I can choose from the fallowing options one 2cr or less, two 1cr, four 1/2cr or less, six 1/4 or less, eight 1/8 or less.
It's the or LESS .I need clarification is that my decision or my DM decision if I say I want a CR 1 can he give me CR 1/4. And can I choose a CR 0
See "When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?" in Sage Advice Compendium.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I find the summoning treatment in this edition to be extremely restrictive and "unfun". Why should it be the DM choosing the type of creature?
Wouldn't it be more appropriate that the summoner themselves would know what creature they are summoning? I can perfectly see the non-certainty working in regards to Demons and Devils, creatures that thrive in being summoned and therefore would try to jump at any occasion, possibly even taking advantage of summoning rituals not intended for them, but why would a summoner not be able to summon the Elemental(s) or animal(s) they want? One would imagine there are differences in the way you summon a Water Elemental as opposed to a Fire one, or to summoning an Elk instead of a Tiger, in terms of preparation, words to use, possibly even somatic movements necessary. "I wanted to summon a bear, but instead I got 4 toads..." (<- exaggeration)
In the end, that is what the rules say, but it does not mean they have to always be followed to the letter (Mr. Crawford has been making this repeatedly clear on Twitter lately).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
The reason why it says "or less" is because you do not have to summon the maximum. If the option is "two CR 1 or less" you can choose just one CR 1 if you want. You choose the number, the DM chooses the creatures summoned. However, few people find it fun that the DM chooses, so talk to your DM - in many cases as long as you're not going for seriously stupid combos (pixies and polymorph...) then you will usually get to choose. Mine let me choose when I had a druid, for example.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I don't think I ever suggested the idea that the DM would summon something useless or counterproductive. I am the first to believe a good DM always works towards the players, not against them.
What I meant is that if someone is interested in summoning, it should be their "worry" to get a knowledge of the creatures they could call upon. Regardless of how it is written, it should always be a cooperation, indeed, but being worded as it is, I feel it could be interpreted as to give way to a "malicious" player to just roll up a summoner-type character and have the DM always have to figure out what kind of creature to have appear.
It's an edge case, I am perfectly aware, that is why I put things in quotations, but it's a possibility, which would technically be supported by the interpretation you are giving.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I wasn't trying to imply you were suggesting that, it was just a general remark for why the spell is designed that way. It might seem odd to the OP or other readers that the DM is in full control.
Pushing the work on them is going to create work for you anyways. Now you need to codify some rules by which the player can learn about elementals (possibly through Arcana checks, which the player may not have known they'd need) and the player needs to keep track of what they've learned.
Or you can just make a table once you know the player has that spell and either roll or make a judgement call when they cast it.
The Forum Infestation (TM)