So I saw that there are limits to how many subclasses one can have, 4 was what I found. So, if I wanted to multiclass with the same class with different subclasses how would this be done. It is greyed out and says this is my starting class. As to say I cannot be an Artificer Artillerist and Battle Smith at the same time. I am confused at why this would not be okay? Thank you all ahead of time for your input.
If you say it out loud, it should be pretty obvious why multiclassing into a single class isn't okay.
I have no clue what you mean by "limits to how many subclasses one can have."
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
You cannot select more than one subclass for a single-classed character in 5e.
If you're an artificer and pick Artillerist at level 3, all other subclasses within the artificer class are no longer available to you. You can either 1) add an additional class when you level up, or 2) ask your DM if they'll let you retcon your subclass to Battle Smith.
The only way you can have more than one subclass is if you progress in your multiclass enough that you get to choose one in the new class. An example is my own artificer: Fighter 6 (Arcane Archer)/Artificer 4 (Alchemist). Or, you ask your friendly neighborhood DM to homebrew a new class or feat that gives you the features you're looking for without confusing, sacrificing, or making your class progression abilities prohibitively OP.
This is an almost universal "want" among my players under the age of 21.
That is, adding in a second subclass -- multi-subclassing.
We've got 15 new folks joining our main group, and of course my younger players mentioned that and now a third of them want it as well and that has left the seven (maybe 8) DMs in the group wondering how the hell we are going to "yes, but" this.
I am staying out of it. I hate the whole structure of subclasses in 5e (that's a personal problem), and the only time I will be dealing with RAW stuff is the new campaign to teach new folks that I got stuck doing for 1 to 5 levels.
Back to the point and away from my grousing, OP, the answer is that you cannot have more than one subclass from a given class. At all. You may not cross the streams. You shall not pass. There is no end zone there. The fog will not part, the shadows will not bend.
Why is it that way? The designers were sorta stuck in an old timey reference loop.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Quar1on. I get what you are saying although condescending. I am saying why can it not be done. It would be like if I wanted to multiclass in my field as a Psychologist. A Behaviouralist and Neuropsychology. It says you cannot have more than 4 subclasses in 5E. I understand limitations but my question was why is it that I cannot take another Artificer With a different Subclass. I believe it is literally algorithm of the levelling since you have to level the class. Which it would just mean it would need to change to a slightly different thread. Since only in DND Beyond does it say only 1 Subclass but that is a fallacy since I am staring at my Arcane Archer (Fighter) Monster Slayer (Ranger) So no it is not obvious if you read my question correctly. I am not going to ask a DND question here without saying it is that. This is DND Beyond question. DND Beyond is not the end all be all. They do not make the rules. I was just wondering why it would not allow it it. I believe though you did help me get to the answer through the condescension. I am seeing a bit of irony here since your tag line. "Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny." Since it was likely unintentionally rude nor funny. Luckily I am seeing this a a moment to teach and clarify my intentions as well as my inquiry. Thanks for your input it has served me greatly. Have a good day.
theologyofbagels Thank you for the clarity of your reply. Can you refer me to the source of this. I do see the that DND Beyond will not allow you but I see this in no manual. Not to be a rules lawyer but it would be good to have the reference. I do not understand why you could not add another Artificer class. I mean I see the complexity in leveling for some people. Since many of the base would be the same anyway just like in real life professions this would give to reason. But thank you none the less. We do not have to like the answer nor believe it is logical to see it may be the correct one.
AEDorsay Well I am about to turn 44 and I a a psychologist that see this in the real world. I even am writing a book on real life skills and gaming comparisons. So as I answered in another post. if if I wanted to multiclass in my field as a Psychologist. A Behaviouralist and Neuropsychology I would take the extra classes. This is a pretty adult thing. So not sure why you would make this about age. I would think it is a mature thing to want to expand ones capability and knowledge. Specifically specializing in a field that they enjoy. So maybe read my other posts here to see clarify what I was asking here. I am not sure what peacocking your credentials of how many is in your group does here. I have ran groups ant conventions on ORYCON, look it up. But how does that even matter here. That is a very young and childish response like you have something to prove. I am sorry if I somehow push your ego into high gear that was not my intention. You clearly are not staying out of it since you made your way in to put opinions that have no bearing on the point. I think we might see eye to eye on the %E subclassing issues. How about coming at this with trying to support people and see from their perspective. Not just the stuff bothering you. The state the stuff bothering you as as a bolster of the issues. You are not teaching me gaming. I have been doing this since 1989. I am an old person to most people. I have had years long campaigns of every Sunday, 12 hour sessions. I am not peacocking, I am telling the agony of getting to that. It begins to be a chore. But the look on peoples face. Now I DM for therapy. I am living the dream. Soon I will even be getting paid to DM. I can tell you are younger or stuck in a your mindset from this alone. "The designers were sorta stuck in an old timey reference loop." Just so you know. As you mature the phrases will go away. This tells me you did not get what I was asking for. "You may not cross the streams. You shall not pass. There is no end zone there. The fog will not part, the shadows will not bend."
I want to know why people think so. I want to know peoples thoughts on it. How they feel on it? Maybe if they know why? If they know how to get around it? Anything not a power play. Just a good bit on a discussion. Some here got. This is not a Q/A section per say. That can happen. But I just wanted to know how people felt. Maybe some cool information. I got so much from this exchange. Nothing about my post but so much. Thank you.
theologyofbagels Thank you for the clarity of your reply. Can you refer me to the source of this. I do see the that DND Beyond will not allow you but I see this in no manual. Not to be a rules lawyer but it would be good to have the reference. I do not understand why you could not add another Artificer class. I mean I see the complexity in leveling for some people. Since many of the base would be the same anyway just like in real life professions this would give to reason. But thank you none the less. We do not have to like the answer nor believe it is logical to see it may be the correct one.
Because the rule structure in D&D is permissive rather than restrictive, it will be way more productive if you can cite the rule(s) leading you to believe you can have 4 subclasses instead of asking for people to cite the rule(s) stating you can’t. You are mistaken and have misunderstood or are being misled because you can definitely only have one subclass as everyone keeps telling you. We can explain if we see why you think otherwise.
Also note that the DDB character builder will allow you to do all kinds of things you shouldn’t and many things you should be able to do, you can’t. Although largely reliable, DDB is not an accurate test of the rules.
There are other game systems out there that allow for what you are asking for, because they were set up for that kind of character building and character progression. D&D just doesn't happen to be one of them. As this is an official D&D forum, I won't go into details, here, on how their competition makes this happen. Just know that other gaming options exist, should this become a go/no-go point of contention for you.
Quar1on. I get what you are saying although condescending. I am saying why can it not be done. It would be like if I wanted to multiclass in my field as a Psychologist. A Behaviouralist and Neuropsychology.
If you wanna talk about game design, it's because it would wildly disbalance levels. Like, say I want to be a Rogue that's both a Thief and an Assassin. If I'm following what you're trying to say, you're arguing that I should be able to put the first three levels into Rogue (Thief) and then the next three into Rogue (Assassin), right? So I would have all the features of a basic level 6 Rogue, plus the features from three levels of Thief, plus the features from three levels of Assassin? If so, then I would be objectively more powerful than any single-subclassed Thief or Assassin.
At 6th level, a Thief only has the level 3 features of its subclass, and the same applies to Assassin. Meanwhile, a Thief/Assassin get both of those sets of features from 6th level, double the subclass for no extra cost. And this is definitely one of the milder cases, since some classes choose subclasses at level 1. Imagine how overpowered a Cleric would be if they got subclass features every single level, which they absolutely would be able to if you could multisubclass.
However, the tables turn for the Thief/Assassin at 9th level, because at 9th level a single-subclassed Thief or Assassin gets another feature, whereas the aforementioned Thief/Assassin gets bupkis (except for a Sneak Attack boost and +4 proficiency modifier). Absolutely no features for a level. Super lame. So, multisubclassing results in unfair boosts in power at some levels and unfair dips in power at others. Basically, at no point is it fair.
It says you cannot have more than 4 subclasses in 5E.
What is "it?"
I understand limitations but my question was why is it that I cannot take another Artificer With a different Subclass.
Because "Artificer with a different subclass" is still Artificer. It's the same class. You can't multiclass into the same class.
Since only in DND Beyond does it say only 1 Subclass but that is a fallacy since I am staring at my Arcane Archer (Fighter) Monster Slayer (Ranger)
Where in Beyond does "it" say that you can only have 1 subclass in an entire character?
Each of those classes contain a feature that allows you to choose from a list of options and gain benefits from your choice, both at the level that you chose and at certain later levels. Nothing says that these features are nullified by multiclassing, therefore they aren't.
So no it is not obvious if you read my question correctly. I am not going to ask a DND question here without saying it is that. This is DND Beyond question. DND Beyond is not the end all be all. They do not make the rules.
I mean... DNDBeyond is owned by Wizards of the Coast... who do make the rules...
I was just wondering why it would not allow it it. I believe though you did help me get to the answer through the condescension. I am seeing a bit of irony here since your tag line. "Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny." Since it was likely unintentionally rude nor funny. Luckily I am seeing this a a moment to teach and clarify my intentions as well as my inquiry. Thanks for your input it has served me greatly. Have a good day.
That wasn't me being rude, that was me pointing out the flaw in your logic simply and succinctly.
theologyofbagels Thank you for the clarity of your reply. Can you refer me to the source of this. I do see the that DND Beyond will not allow you but I see this in no manual. Not to be a rules lawyer but it would be good to have the reference. I do not understand why you could not add another Artificer class. I mean I see the complexity in leveling for some people. Since many of the base would be the same anyway just like in real life professions this would give to reason. But thank you none the less. We do not have to like the answer nor believe it is logical to see it may be the correct one.
Multiclassing allows you to gain levels in multiple classes. Doing so lets you mix the abilities of those classes to realize a character concept that might not be reflected in one of the standard class options.
With this rule, you have the option of gaining a level in a new class whenever you advance in level, instead of gaining a level in your current class.
Multiclassing is for taking levels in a new class. If you're already an Artificer, Artificer isn't a new class, it's your current class. The subclass does not make the class different (especially since Artificer subclasses are only selected at 3rd level).
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, as a fellow psychologist and a sociologist, I will note that I didn't make it about age.
I mentioned that it was something nearly all my under 21 folks want. That doesn't make it about age, that's just an expression that all my young folks want it.
And at nearly 60, I find it worth noting that references to classic films do not go away. If anything, you get more of them and they all blend together.
So, I rambled about how my younger players want to be able to do something (which is generally supportive of your goals), groused about some things that I don't like about the current game system (having started in 1979, I sorta do that), muttered how I got handed teaching some new folks the game, and then pointedly stated I was staying out of the whole thing, before finally pointing out, in response, that it is not possible to do so and that the likely reason was that the devs did so because it never occurred to them, since sub-classes have never been something you could multi-subclass with previously in any edition.
Or, for a different spin, they were relying on their own nostalgia blindness when it came to the question of what constitutes a sub-class multiclassing.
Then I tossed out some random lines from films like ghostbusters, Lord of the Rings, and a couple I have already forgotten because they were throwaway lines.
I can understand how you would leap to such conclusions, and I am fine with it. Still, be aware that not all responses are hostile, nor is your interpretation accurate.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
IamSposta So I am trying to find the information locations where I found it. This is my bad but I usually keep my sources. But the were not official. I did not mean to come off as this was official, this is just what I could find. I found 4 and 9. I am a scientist and a researcher. So forgive me if I do not bow to your expertise. I was hoping to find the printed reference. Since the fact that with my own evidence the character builder has shown flaws in support of this answer. So my research was not even confirmed to anything more that a few non Hasbro/Wizard's sites and a couple Gesalt references. So until you have a link or reference cool but I can type stuff to. You also gave input on a refence point of my research support and nothing on the post. [REDACTED]. This also lead me to research and learn how Hasbro in involved in DND Beyond. I only knew about Wizards of the Coast.
Wizards of the Coast bought out TSR and took over the game and then was bought by Hasbro and has existed as a division within them for over 20 years. In May of last year, they bought DDB, and made it the official home of D&D online, so the rules that are linked to here are the official rules.
However, that isn't always useful to know, since in order to access the rules in the books you have to pay for the digital access, which not everyone does or can afford to do.
So, page 163 in your Player's Handbook has the rules for Multi-classing in it, and do not make any mention at all of multi-subclassing, and, as RAW, that means that it is not something one can do officially, and that would be why it is not possible to do here on DDB (That is, since it is not part of the official rules, it is not possible to do here.)
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You can only have one subclass per class in D&D5e (at least, without modification).
This is because the rules have a baked-in the premises that:
You're gaining one level per level.
That each level is only allowed by already having the level before it.
You cannot take the same level twice.
Let's say I take Ranger. I got to level three and gain the Ranger Archetype Beast Master. I want to take the Hunter Archetype too...how do I do that?
You could rule that I can repeat levels...but that's very OP. Why not just repeat the most potent levels? That gets very powerful.
You could insist on repeating the prerequisite levels. I have to invest three levels for each Archetype I want to take. That could work, except...do I get the associated benefits again? More spell slots? More Favoured Terrains, etc? If so, that could get very OP very quickly. If not, my character is going to be as weak as.
The problem with having multiple subclasses per class is that it creates very unbalanced characters because the system isn't built that flexibly...unless you overhaul the system - at which point, are you really playing D&D5e anymore?
RAW, you can have as many subclasses as you do classes with sufficient levels in to get their subclasses, one for each - which works out to be 9 subclasses over the 13 classes (it takes more than 20 levels to get subclasses for all classes, 31 to be precise). These are all implications of the rules.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
IamSposta So I am trying to find the information locations where I found it. This is my bad but I usually keep my sources. But the were not official. I did not mean to come off as this was official, this is just what I could find. I found 4 and 9. I am a scientist and a researcher. So forgive me if I do not bow to your expertise. I was hoping to find the printed reference. Since the fact that with my own evidence the character builder has shown flaws in support of this answer. So my research was not even confirmed to anything more that a few non Hasbro/Wizard's sites and a couple Gesalt references. So until you have a link or reference cool but I can type stuff to. You also gave input on a refence point of my research support and nothing on the post.[REDACTED]. This also lead me to research and learn how Hasbro in involved in DND Beyond. I only knew about Wizards of the Coast.
[REDACTED]
Here's why you can only have 1 subclass per class. Let's take a look at Rogue for an example.
At 3rd level, you choose an archetype that you emulate in the exercise of your rogue abilities: Thief, detailed at the end of the class description, or one from another source. Your archetype choice grants you features at 3rd level and then again at 9th, 13th, and 17th level.
It says that you choose an archetype. It doesn't say that you choose 4 archetypes, nor 9 archetypes, but instead an archetype. The fact that both the article and the noun are singular means that there's only one archetype that you're choosing.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
[REDACTED] Once again, the rules are permissive. This means that the rules tell you what you can do rather than listing the vast plethora of things you can’t do. It takes a single sentence in each class description to indicate you can choose “an archetype”; they could fill tomes and tomes with all the things you can’t do.
Incidentally, since you indicate it is not an official rule you are looking for, it is worth nothing that you can homebrew anything you like but it is extremely unlikely you will find the homebrew rule you are looking for included in DDB’s functionality.
Quar1on kindly referenced the multiclassing rules in the Player's Handbook for me, which shows that multiclassing only allows you to take levels in different classes rather than in the same one you already have. However, I also wanted to point out the following that you can find on the artificer page of D&D Beyond under "Multiclassing and the Artificer":
Multiclassing and the Artificer
If your group uses the optional rule on multiclassing in the Player’s Handbook, here’s what you need to know if you choose artificer as one of your classes.
Ability Score Minimum. As a multiclass character, you must have at least an Intelligence score of 13 to take a level in this class, or to take a level in another class if you are already an artificer. (emphasis mine)
Proficiencies Gained. If artificer isn’t your initial class, here are the proficiencies you gain when you take your first level as an artificer: light armor, medium armor, shields, thieves’ tools, tinker’s tools.
Spell Slots. Add half your levels (rounded up) in the artificer class to the appropriate levels from other classes to determine your available spell slots.
As you can see, there is no mention of gaining an additional subclass, and the only mention of artificer being your existing class is to tell you how to multiclass out of it.
This special rules section exists because the artificer class was introduced years after the Player's Handbook (PHB) was published. You will find that it is consistent with the PHB's multiclassing rules.
From a logic standpoint, I see where you're coming from regarding broadening your character's knowledge within their chosen class/field. From a 5e game design standpoint, however, everything breaks really quickly if that is allowed. But as I said previously, there are ways around this if your DM is open to it. It's a good rule of thumb that in 5e you can do what the rules say, no more and no less, but it's the DM's prerogative to decide whether or not those rules will be used at their table.
theologyofbagels Oh my friend you are breath of fresh air. You have pointed out wording I missed in context. That works. Again another I do not like nor I see a real reason for. I even think we need limits on how many. Especially in in the same class. But are you interpreting this as your class changes to the second and you lose the Artificer class all together? Because I had not heard that until you. Which is why I hear Fighter/Wizard and such. Personally, I would not read it that way but I logically see where it could be read that way. I also would not always agree it breaks, but the potential is definitely there.
I have always known this philosophy. "It's a good rule of thumb that in 5e you can do what the rules say, no more and no less, but it's the DM's prerogative to decide whether or not those rules will be used at their table." But I took it in all gaming. Thanks for existing. You are awesome.
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So I saw that there are limits to how many subclasses one can have, 4 was what I found. So, if I wanted to multiclass with the same class with different subclasses how would this be done. It is greyed out and says this is my starting class. As to say I cannot be an Artificer Artillerist and Battle Smith at the same time. I am confused at why this would not be okay? Thank you all ahead of time for your input.
Kaos
If you say it out loud, it should be pretty obvious why multiclassing into a single class isn't okay.
I have no clue what you mean by "limits to how many subclasses one can have."
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
You cannot select more than one subclass for a single-classed character in 5e.
If you're an artificer and pick Artillerist at level 3, all other subclasses within the artificer class are no longer available to you. You can either 1) add an additional class when you level up, or 2) ask your DM if they'll let you retcon your subclass to Battle Smith.
The only way you can have more than one subclass is if you progress in your multiclass enough that you get to choose one in the new class. An example is my own artificer: Fighter 6 (Arcane Archer)/Artificer 4 (Alchemist). Or, you ask your friendly neighborhood DM to homebrew a new class or feat that gives you the features you're looking for without confusing, sacrificing, or making your class progression abilities prohibitively OP.
This is an almost universal "want" among my players under the age of 21.
That is, adding in a second subclass -- multi-subclassing.
We've got 15 new folks joining our main group, and of course my younger players mentioned that and now a third of them want it as well and that has left the seven (maybe 8) DMs in the group wondering how the hell we are going to "yes, but" this.
I am staying out of it. I hate the whole structure of subclasses in 5e (that's a personal problem), and the only time I will be dealing with RAW stuff is the new campaign to teach new folks that I got stuck doing for 1 to 5 levels.
Back to the point and away from my grousing, OP, the answer is that you cannot have more than one subclass from a given class. At all. You may not cross the streams. You shall not pass. There is no end zone there. The fog will not part, the shadows will not bend.
Why is it that way? The designers were sorta stuck in an old timey reference loop.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I don’t know where you found that information but it is wholly incorrect. The limit on how many subclasses you can have per class is 1, not 4.
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Quar1on. I get what you are saying although condescending. I am saying why can it not be done. It would be like if I wanted to multiclass in my field as a Psychologist. A Behaviouralist and Neuropsychology. It says you cannot have more than 4 subclasses in 5E. I understand limitations but my question was why is it that I cannot take another Artificer With a different Subclass. I believe it is literally algorithm of the levelling since you have to level the class. Which it would just mean it would need to change to a slightly different thread. Since only in DND Beyond does it say only 1 Subclass but that is a fallacy since I am staring at my Arcane Archer (Fighter) Monster Slayer (Ranger) So no it is not obvious if you read my question correctly. I am not going to ask a DND question here without saying it is that. This is DND Beyond question. DND Beyond is not the end all be all. They do not make the rules. I was just wondering why it would not allow it it. I believe though you did help me get to the answer through the condescension. I am seeing a bit of irony here since your tag line. "Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny." Since it was likely unintentionally rude nor funny. Luckily I am seeing this a a moment to teach and clarify my intentions as well as my inquiry. Thanks for your input it has served me greatly. Have a good day.
theologyofbagels Thank you for the clarity of your reply. Can you refer me to the source of this. I do see the that DND Beyond will not allow you but I see this in no manual. Not to be a rules lawyer but it would be good to have the reference. I do not understand why you could not add another Artificer class. I mean I see the complexity in leveling for some people. Since many of the base would be the same anyway just like in real life professions this would give to reason. But thank you none the less. We do not have to like the answer nor believe it is logical to see it may be the correct one.
AEDorsay Well I am about to turn 44 and I a a psychologist that see this in the real world. I even am writing a book on real life skills and gaming comparisons. So as I answered in another post. if if I wanted to multiclass in my field as a Psychologist. A Behaviouralist and Neuropsychology I would take the extra classes. This is a pretty adult thing. So not sure why you would make this about age. I would think it is a mature thing to want to expand ones capability and knowledge. Specifically specializing in a field that they enjoy. So maybe read my other posts here to see clarify what I was asking here. I am not sure what peacocking your credentials of how many is in your group does here. I have ran groups ant conventions on ORYCON, look it up. But how does that even matter here. That is a very young and childish response like you have something to prove. I am sorry if I somehow push your ego into high gear that was not my intention. You clearly are not staying out of it since you made your way in to put opinions that have no bearing on the point. I think we might see eye to eye on the %E subclassing issues. How about coming at this with trying to support people and see from their perspective. Not just the stuff bothering you. The state the stuff bothering you as as a bolster of the issues. You are not teaching me gaming. I have been doing this since 1989. I am an old person to most people. I have had years long campaigns of every Sunday, 12 hour sessions. I am not peacocking, I am telling the agony of getting to that. It begins to be a chore. But the look on peoples face. Now I DM for therapy. I am living the dream. Soon I will even be getting paid to DM. I can tell you are younger or stuck in a your mindset from this alone. "The designers were sorta stuck in an old timey reference loop." Just so you know. As you mature the phrases will go away. This tells me you did not get what I was asking for. "You may not cross the streams. You shall not pass. There is no end zone there. The fog will not part, the shadows will not bend."
I want to know why people think so. I want to know peoples thoughts on it. How they feel on it? Maybe if they know why? If they know how to get around it? Anything not a power play. Just a good bit on a discussion. Some here got. This is not a Q/A section per say. That can happen. But I just wanted to know how people felt. Maybe some cool information. I got so much from this exchange. Nothing about my post but so much. Thank you.
The PSYCHOlogical Dungeon Master
Because the rule structure in D&D is permissive rather than restrictive, it will be way more productive if you can cite the rule(s) leading you to believe you can have 4 subclasses instead of asking for people to cite the rule(s) stating you can’t. You are mistaken and have misunderstood or are being misled because you can definitely only have one subclass as everyone keeps telling you. We can explain if we see why you think otherwise.
Also note that the DDB character builder will allow you to do all kinds of things you shouldn’t and many things you should be able to do, you can’t. Although largely reliable, DDB is not an accurate test of the rules.
There are other game systems out there that allow for what you are asking for, because they were set up for that kind of character building and character progression. D&D just doesn't happen to be one of them. As this is an official D&D forum, I won't go into details, here, on how their competition makes this happen. Just know that other gaming options exist, should this become a go/no-go point of contention for you.
Message sent.
If you wanna talk about game design, it's because it would wildly disbalance levels. Like, say I want to be a Rogue that's both a Thief and an Assassin. If I'm following what you're trying to say, you're arguing that I should be able to put the first three levels into Rogue (Thief) and then the next three into Rogue (Assassin), right? So I would have all the features of a basic level 6 Rogue, plus the features from three levels of Thief, plus the features from three levels of Assassin? If so, then I would be objectively more powerful than any single-subclassed Thief or Assassin.
At 6th level, a Thief only has the level 3 features of its subclass, and the same applies to Assassin. Meanwhile, a Thief/Assassin get both of those sets of features from 6th level, double the subclass for no extra cost. And this is definitely one of the milder cases, since some classes choose subclasses at level 1. Imagine how overpowered a Cleric would be if they got subclass features every single level, which they absolutely would be able to if you could multisubclass.
However, the tables turn for the Thief/Assassin at 9th level, because at 9th level a single-subclassed Thief or Assassin gets another feature, whereas the aforementioned Thief/Assassin gets bupkis (except for a Sneak Attack boost and +4 proficiency modifier). Absolutely no features for a level. Super lame. So, multisubclassing results in unfair boosts in power at some levels and unfair dips in power at others. Basically, at no point is it fair.
What is "it?"
Because "Artificer with a different subclass" is still Artificer. It's the same class. You can't multiclass into the same class.
Where in Beyond does "it" say that you can only have 1 subclass in an entire character?
Each of those classes contain a feature that allows you to choose from a list of options and gain benefits from your choice, both at the level that you chose and at certain later levels. Nothing says that these features are nullified by multiclassing, therefore they aren't.
I mean... DNDBeyond is owned by Wizards of the Coast... who do make the rules...
That wasn't me being rude, that was me pointing out the flaw in your logic simply and succinctly.
Multiclassing is for taking levels in a new class. If you're already an Artificer, Artificer isn't a new class, it's your current class. The subclass does not make the class different (especially since Artificer subclasses are only selected at 3rd level).
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, as a fellow psychologist and a sociologist, I will note that I didn't make it about age.
I mentioned that it was something nearly all my under 21 folks want. That doesn't make it about age, that's just an expression that all my young folks want it.
And at nearly 60, I find it worth noting that references to classic films do not go away. If anything, you get more of them and they all blend together.
So, I rambled about how my younger players want to be able to do something (which is generally supportive of your goals), groused about some things that I don't like about the current game system (having started in 1979, I sorta do that), muttered how I got handed teaching some new folks the game, and then pointedly stated I was staying out of the whole thing, before finally pointing out, in response, that it is not possible to do so and that the likely reason was that the devs did so because it never occurred to them, since sub-classes have never been something you could multi-subclass with previously in any edition.
Or, for a different spin, they were relying on their own nostalgia blindness when it came to the question of what constitutes a sub-class multiclassing.
Then I tossed out some random lines from films like ghostbusters, Lord of the Rings, and a couple I have already forgotten because they were throwaway lines.
I can understand how you would leap to such conclusions, and I am fine with it. Still, be aware that not all responses are hostile, nor is your interpretation accurate.
Edit: typos, wording, formatting.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
IamSposta So I am trying to find the information locations where I found it. This is my bad but I usually keep my sources. But the were not official. I did not mean to come off as this was official, this is just what I could find. I found 4 and 9. I am a scientist and a researcher. So forgive me if I do not bow to your expertise. I was hoping to find the printed reference. Since the fact that with my own evidence the character builder has shown flaws in support of this answer. So my research was not even confirmed to anything more that a few non Hasbro/Wizard's sites and a couple Gesalt references. So until you have a link or reference cool but I can type stuff to. You also gave input on a refence point of my research support and nothing on the post. [REDACTED]. This also lead me to research and learn how Hasbro in involved in DND Beyond. I only knew about Wizards of the Coast.
As a note, the only RAW rules relating to multiclassing at present are found here (which is linked to previously): https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/customization-options#Multiclassing
Wizards of the Coast bought out TSR and took over the game and then was bought by Hasbro and has existed as a division within them for over 20 years. In May of last year, they bought DDB, and made it the official home of D&D online, so the rules that are linked to here are the official rules.
However, that isn't always useful to know, since in order to access the rules in the books you have to pay for the digital access, which not everyone does or can afford to do.
So, page 163 in your Player's Handbook has the rules for Multi-classing in it, and do not make any mention at all of multi-subclassing, and, as RAW, that means that it is not something one can do officially, and that would be why it is not possible to do here on DDB (That is, since it is not part of the official rules, it is not possible to do here.)
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You can only have one subclass per class in D&D5e (at least, without modification).
This is because the rules have a baked-in the premises that:
Let's say I take Ranger. I got to level three and gain the Ranger Archetype Beast Master. I want to take the Hunter Archetype too...how do I do that?
The problem with having multiple subclasses per class is that it creates very unbalanced characters because the system isn't built that flexibly...unless you overhaul the system - at which point, are you really playing D&D5e anymore?
RAW, you can have as many subclasses as you do classes with sufficient levels in to get their subclasses, one for each - which works out to be 9 subclasses over the 13 classes (it takes more than 20 levels to get subclasses for all classes, 31 to be precise). These are all implications of the rules.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
[REDACTED]
Here's why you can only have 1 subclass per class. Let's take a look at Rogue for an example.
It says that you choose an archetype. It doesn't say that you choose 4 archetypes, nor 9 archetypes, but instead an archetype. The fact that both the article and the noun are singular means that there's only one archetype that you're choosing.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
[REDACTED] Once again, the rules are permissive. This means that the rules tell you what you can do rather than listing the vast plethora of things you can’t do. It takes a single sentence in each class description to indicate you can choose “an archetype”; they could fill tomes and tomes with all the things you can’t do.
Incidentally, since you indicate it is not an official rule you are looking for, it is worth nothing that you can homebrew anything you like but it is extremely unlikely you will find the homebrew rule you are looking for included in DDB’s functionality.
Quar1on kindly referenced the multiclassing rules in the Player's Handbook for me, which shows that multiclassing only allows you to take levels in different classes rather than in the same one you already have. However, I also wanted to point out the following that you can find on the artificer page of D&D Beyond under "Multiclassing and the Artificer":
As you can see, there is no mention of gaining an additional subclass, and the only mention of artificer being your existing class is to tell you how to multiclass out of it.
This special rules section exists because the artificer class was introduced years after the Player's Handbook (PHB) was published. You will find that it is consistent with the PHB's multiclassing rules.
From a logic standpoint, I see where you're coming from regarding broadening your character's knowledge within their chosen class/field. From a 5e game design standpoint, however, everything breaks really quickly if that is allowed. But as I said previously, there are ways around this if your DM is open to it. It's a good rule of thumb that in 5e you can do what the rules say, no more and no less, but it's the DM's prerogative to decide whether or not those rules will be used at their table.
KaosLord999,
You want links to my sources? Here:
Simply read the rules, same as I did.
[REDACTED]
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
theologyofbagels Oh my friend you are breath of fresh air. You have pointed out wording I missed in context. That works. Again another I do not like nor I see a real reason for. I even think we need limits on how many. Especially in in the same class. But are you interpreting this as your class changes to the second and you lose the Artificer class all together? Because I had not heard that until you. Which is why I hear Fighter/Wizard and such. Personally, I would not read it that way but I logically see where it could be read that way. I also would not always agree it breaks, but the potential is definitely there.
I have always known this philosophy. "It's a good rule of thumb that in 5e you can do what the rules say, no more and no less, but it's the DM's prerogative to decide whether or not those rules will be used at their table." But I took it in all gaming. Thanks for existing. You are awesome.