To whomever published the lovely map for the new Tsojcanth tournament adventure: it's not particularly useful as a battle map at that scale. Aren't we standardized to 1 square = 5' on maps that are meant to be printed and played on? Why is this map set to 1 square = 10 feet?
Is it possible that this map could be rescaled to 1 square = 5' so we can print it and use it on the table without alterations? It really is a beautiful map and I'd love to print it and use it at a tournament, but please fix the scale.
In its current state, the map is really only good for Theatre of the Mind since its scale doesn't match our miniatures or 99% of the other published battle maps.
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RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
There's actually quite a few battle/dungeon maps that have 10' squares. I have no idea why. If you're using a VTT then it's an easy fix by setting a 5' grid overlay on the 10' grid map.
On a real table top then I suppose you just have to print it out twice as large as normal.
Printing it at 2x scale will be an undertaking. This is already a pretty large map. I'm not running VTT; I do agree that it would be simple to change it there. It does beg the question: why are WotC publishing 10' scale maps when the Maps app is designed for the standard 1=5' scale?
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RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
I expect it's 10' scale because the original from 1976 is 10' scale (I can't find my copy so I can't say exactly how close the new map is, but other than cleanup I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same).
It happens quite frequently and not just WotC - I recently played a one shot by Mammoth Factory, which also had 10ft squares. I'm guessing the choice is aesthetic in nature - with large maps that have to be shrunk down even further to fit the page, 5ft squares would start becoming very obvious and interfering with the presentation of the image.
It is annoying, even for those who don't want to print it - I draw the maps on my 1 inch square mats, and it adds more mental load, remembering that one square actually means two. Sounds silly, but when you're trying to relatively faithfully reproduce a map, it's much easier if I can recreate what I actually see rather than having to scale it at the same time.
However, it isn't rare to see this or unique to WotC.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As a DM and player from the 80's B/X era, I appreciate the historical accuracy of the 10' scale grid; for modern tabletop and VTT usage the 5' grid is the universally understood language and using anything else just adds workload to DMs.
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RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
I'm fairly certain that every dungeon map is scaled to 10' per square (I know there are exceptions - building interiors, etc), because it is how they are drawn. The dungeon map isn't necessarily supposed to be your battle map.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
As a DM and player from the 80's B/X era, I appreciate the historical accuracy of the 10' scale grid; for modern tabletop and VTT usage the 5' grid is the universally understood language and using anything else just adds workload to DMs.
The map is designed for a physical product, not digital, and it's roughly 360' x 480' (I might have miscounted by a few). Producing that at a battle map scale would be a 6'x8' object, which is completely impractical for a physical product, so I expect it will actually be printed as a folding insert at something like 15" x 20", with the expectation that DMs will either TotM or set up their own battle map for individual rooms with the resources they have on hand. Now, the Maps digital product could turn this into an image suitable for VTT usage, but most VTTs don't actually like maps that big either.
Respectfully, that's certainly not the case. I'm running both Phandelver and Curse of Strahd right now, for example, and all the dungeons and interior locations are scaled at 5' squares.
The trouble is, you're also correct! There are plenty of maps that are indeed scaled to 10' squares as the Tsjocanth map is. I have high visual standards for what I put down on my tables and that standard is a full color, full scale 5' grid battle map. I'm fortunate in that that cost is no object, and I like to print and laminate my maps from the official sources so I can keep to those standards. I respect the traditions of TotM, but I prefer not to present my games that way.
This particular map is a doozy. Even at a two 3'x4' maps, it's getting a little excessive to try and produce a working physical copy. Leaving each DM to his own preparation standards destroys the idea of uniform play experience at competitive tournaments.
I think standardizing the presentation of dungeon and interior maps at a 5' square grid can only lessen our prep burden as DMs. WotC would do well not to forget their papercraft and minatures crowd; not everyone likes or prefers to play on VTT all the time.
Edit: after consideration, I believe this module is best run TotM style and I'll just embrace the old school nature of it while running these particular (i.e. Infinite Staircase) adventures.
Trying to force something to fit a particular box usually requires a fare amount of work, some a lot more than others, I am not saying it can't be done just that it may not be worth the effort.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I'm just finishing up a FoundryVTT campaign of Tyranny of Dragons, and there's quite a few maps (dare I say most of them) that are 10' squares, 15' squares, or even 20' squares. On many of them i've had to double the pixel size of the maps, then switch to gridless play because it was so frustratingly hard to get the 5' grids to line up with the predrawn 20' grids on the map. Of course blowing the maps up in size (you can't have less than 50 pixels per grid) means everything gets blurry.
5' grids have been the standard since 2nd edition.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I'm fairly certain that every dungeon map is scaled to 10' per square (I know there are exceptions - building interiors, etc), because it is how they are drawn. The dungeon map isn't necessarily supposed to be your battle map.
I'm not sure of what your constraints are. I've checked DoIP, BIPT, Acquisition Inc, LMoP, Giants of the Star Forge and Lightning Keep (basically the ones I can check on my phone and not get off my backside to check physical books) and the vast majority of maps (not including large scale country sized maps etc) are 5ft squares. The 10ft squares are generally the large(ish) scale maps that cover multiple buildings, grounds etc. But most are 5ft - including ones mapping outside.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So there's plenty of maps drawn at both 5' and 10' scale in products from the 2014 - 2024 era.
This doesn't solve the problem. Why create more work for us? The issue of having to re-draw a crude version of these beautiful maps at double scale (to say nothing of translating oddly shaped rooms like in the Tsojcanth map) is a workload problem for DMs.
I am asking for uniformity of presentation so we can get on with the fun. Despite evidence that 10' scale maps exist, that evidence doesn't make the maps more useful to those of us who just want to print - laminate - drop it on the table and roll dice. I don't want to spend my days manipulating photoshop layers. I am a DM -- I want to run the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
So there's plenty of maps drawn at both 5' and 10' scale in products from the 2014 - 2024 era.
This doesn't solve the problem. Why create more work for us? The issue of having to re-draw a crude version of these beautiful maps at double scale (to say nothing of translating oddly shaped rooms like in the Tsojcanth map) is a workload problem for DMs.
I am asking for uniformity of presentation so we can get on with the fun. Despite evidence that 10' scale maps exist, that evidence doesn't make the maps more useful to those of us who just want to print - laminate - drop it on the table and roll dice. I don't want to spend my days manipulating photoshop layers. I am a DM -- I want to run the game.
So there's plenty of maps drawn at both 5' and 10' scale in products from the 2014 - 2024 era.
This doesn't solve the problem. Why create more work for us? The issue of having to re-draw a crude version of these beautiful maps at double scale (to say nothing of translating oddly shaped rooms like in the Tsojcanth map) is a workload problem for DMs.
I am asking for uniformity of presentation so we can get on with the fun. Despite evidence that 10' scale maps exist, that evidence doesn't make the maps more useful to those of us who just want to print - laminate - drop it on the table and roll dice. I don't want to spend my days manipulating photoshop layers. I am a DM -- I want to run the game.
Just have everyone's movement for the 10' maps?
That doesn't solve the issue. When using a VTT you need to move tokens, those tokens have a minimum size (in Foundry it's 50 pixels). You can't always physically fit 4 tokens into those 10' squares. Also, if you're using grids (instead of gridless), you need to align the 5' grids to match the 10' grids or people will see a confusing patchwork of grid lines and not know which ones are the real ones. Sometimes they're easy to resize and align, other times they are not. Especially when the pre-made map doesn't apply the same grid to the entire map, such as rooms separated by thick sections of mountain. Get your grid to line up for one room, and it no longer lines up for the rest of the map.
They should either just use 5' grids, or no grids at all. It's easier to add a grid to a gridless map, than it is to add a grid and get it to line up with an existing grid.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
So there's plenty of maps drawn at both 5' and 10' scale in products from the 2014 - 2024 era.
This doesn't solve the problem. Why create more work for us? The issue of having to re-draw a crude version of these beautiful maps at double scale (to say nothing of translating oddly shaped rooms like in the Tsojcanth map) is a workload problem for DMs.
I am asking for uniformity of presentation so we can get on with the fun. Despite evidence that 10' scale maps exist, that evidence doesn't make the maps more useful to those of us who just want to print - laminate - drop it on the table and roll dice. I don't want to spend my days manipulating photoshop layers. I am a DM -- I want to run the game.
Just have everyone's movement for the 10' maps?
That doesn't solve the issue. When using a VTT you need to move tokens, those tokens have a minimum size (in Foundry it's 50 pixels). You can't always physically fit 4 tokens into those 10' squares. Also, if you're using grids (instead of gridless), you need to align the 5' grids to match the 10' grids or people will see a confusing patchwork of grid lines and not know which ones are the real ones. Sometimes they're easy to resize and align, other times they are not. Especially when the pre-made map doesn't apply the same grid to the entire map, such as rooms separated by thick sections of mountain. Get your grid to line up for one room, and it no longer lines up for the rest of the map.
They should either just use 5' grids, or no grids at all. It's easier to add a grid to a gridless map, than it is to add a grid and get it to line up with an existing grid.
Are you trying to shrink the maps, or expand them so that a 5’ grid divides the 10’ grid in two?
Seems like it would be better and faster just to enlarge the map image so a 5’ grid overlayed on top of the 10’ grid and could be adjusted easily.
So there's plenty of maps drawn at both 5' and 10' scale in products from the 2014 - 2024 era.
This doesn't solve the problem. Why create more work for us? The issue of having to re-draw a crude version of these beautiful maps at double scale (to say nothing of translating oddly shaped rooms like in the Tsojcanth map) is a workload problem for DMs.
I am asking for uniformity of presentation so we can get on with the fun. Despite evidence that 10' scale maps exist, that evidence doesn't make the maps more useful to those of us who just want to print - laminate - drop it on the table and roll dice. I don't want to spend my days manipulating photoshop layers. I am a DM -- I want to run the game.
It's a problem you are inventing for yourself. The 10 foot scale is from before you were born and is an easily understood method for presenting dungeons. They don't do it to be annoying.
Just draw the encounter on a battlemat, it's not that hard. If you're printing the map, draw in the extra lines before you laminate it.
The map is a MAP, not a battlespace. I'm a GM too and you have to what you have to do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
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To whomever published the lovely map for the new Tsojcanth tournament adventure: it's not particularly useful as a battle map at that scale. Aren't we standardized to 1 square = 5' on maps that are meant to be printed and played on? Why is this map set to 1 square = 10 feet?
Is it possible that this map could be rescaled to 1 square = 5' so we can print it and use it on the table without alterations? It really is a beautiful map and I'd love to print it and use it at a tournament, but please fix the scale.
In its current state, the map is really only good for Theatre of the Mind since its scale doesn't match our miniatures or 99% of the other published battle maps.
RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
Game Master & Head Curator, Lyceum Opus Arcanae
There's actually quite a few battle/dungeon maps that have 10' squares. I have no idea why. If you're using a VTT then it's an easy fix by setting a 5' grid overlay on the 10' grid map.
On a real table top then I suppose you just have to print it out twice as large as normal.
Printing it at 2x scale will be an undertaking. This is already a pretty large map. I'm not running VTT; I do agree that it would be simple to change it there. It does beg the question: why are WotC publishing 10' scale maps when the Maps app is designed for the standard 1=5' scale?
RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
Game Master & Head Curator, Lyceum Opus Arcanae
I expect it's 10' scale because the original from 1976 is 10' scale (I can't find my copy so I can't say exactly how close the new map is, but other than cleanup I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same).
It happens quite frequently and not just WotC - I recently played a one shot by Mammoth Factory, which also had 10ft squares. I'm guessing the choice is aesthetic in nature - with large maps that have to be shrunk down even further to fit the page, 5ft squares would start becoming very obvious and interfering with the presentation of the image.
It is annoying, even for those who don't want to print it - I draw the maps on my 1 inch square mats, and it adds more mental load, remembering that one square actually means two. Sounds silly, but when you're trying to relatively faithfully reproduce a map, it's much easier if I can recreate what I actually see rather than having to scale it at the same time.
However, it isn't rare to see this or unique to WotC.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As a DM and player from the 80's B/X era, I appreciate the historical accuracy of the 10' scale grid; for modern tabletop and VTT usage the 5' grid is the universally understood language and using anything else just adds workload to DMs.
RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
Game Master & Head Curator, Lyceum Opus Arcanae
I'm fairly certain that every dungeon map is scaled to 10' per square (I know there are exceptions - building interiors, etc), because it is how they are drawn. The dungeon map isn't necessarily supposed to be your battle map.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The map is designed for a physical product, not digital, and it's roughly 360' x 480' (I might have miscounted by a few). Producing that at a battle map scale would be a 6'x8' object, which is completely impractical for a physical product, so I expect it will actually be printed as a folding insert at something like 15" x 20", with the expectation that DMs will either TotM or set up their own battle map for individual rooms with the resources they have on hand. Now, the Maps digital product could turn this into an image suitable for VTT usage, but most VTTs don't actually like maps that big either.
Respectfully, that's certainly not the case. I'm running both Phandelver and Curse of Strahd right now, for example, and all the dungeons and interior locations are scaled at 5' squares.
The trouble is, you're also correct! There are plenty of maps that are indeed scaled to 10' squares as the Tsjocanth map is. I have high visual standards for what I put down on my tables and that standard is a full color, full scale 5' grid battle map. I'm fortunate in that that cost is no object, and I like to print and laminate my maps from the official sources so I can keep to those standards. I respect the traditions of TotM, but I prefer not to present my games that way.
This particular map is a doozy. Even at a two 3'x4' maps, it's getting a little excessive to try and produce a working physical copy. Leaving each DM to his own preparation standards destroys the idea of uniform play experience at competitive tournaments.
I think standardizing the presentation of dungeon and interior maps at a 5' square grid can only lessen our prep burden as DMs. WotC would do well not to forget their papercraft and minatures crowd; not everyone likes or prefers to play on VTT all the time.
Edit: after consideration, I believe this module is best run TotM style and I'll just embrace the old school nature of it while running these particular (i.e. Infinite Staircase) adventures.
RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
Game Master & Head Curator, Lyceum Opus Arcanae
Trying to force something to fit a particular box usually requires a fare amount of work, some a lot more than others, I am not saying it can't be done just that it may not be worth the effort.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I'm just finishing up a FoundryVTT campaign of Tyranny of Dragons, and there's quite a few maps (dare I say most of them) that are 10' squares, 15' squares, or even 20' squares. On many of them i've had to double the pixel size of the maps, then switch to gridless play because it was so frustratingly hard to get the 5' grids to line up with the predrawn 20' grids on the map. Of course blowing the maps up in size (you can't have less than 50 pixels per grid) means everything gets blurry.
5' grids have been the standard since 2nd edition.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I'm not sure of what your constraints are. I've checked DoIP, BIPT, Acquisition Inc, LMoP, Giants of the Star Forge and Lightning Keep (basically the ones I can check on my phone and not get off my backside to check physical books) and the vast majority of maps (not including large scale country sized maps etc) are 5ft squares. The 10ft squares are generally the large(ish) scale maps that cover multiple buildings, grounds etc. But most are 5ft - including ones mapping outside.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
So there's plenty of maps drawn at both 5' and 10' scale in products from the 2014 - 2024 era.
This doesn't solve the problem. Why create more work for us? The issue of having to re-draw a crude version of these beautiful maps at double scale (to say nothing of translating oddly shaped rooms like in the Tsojcanth map) is a workload problem for DMs.
I am asking for uniformity of presentation so we can get on with the fun. Despite evidence that 10' scale maps exist, that evidence doesn't make the maps more useful to those of us who just want to print - laminate - drop it on the table and roll dice. I don't want to spend my days manipulating photoshop layers. I am a DM -- I want to run the game.
RPGA Certified Master DM (3.5E) and GenCon D&D Open judge (2010, 2024)
Game Master & Head Curator, Lyceum Opus Arcanae
Just have everyone's movement for the 10' maps?
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
That doesn't solve the issue. When using a VTT you need to move tokens, those tokens have a minimum size (in Foundry it's 50 pixels). You can't always physically fit 4 tokens into those 10' squares. Also, if you're using grids (instead of gridless), you need to align the 5' grids to match the 10' grids or people will see a confusing patchwork of grid lines and not know which ones are the real ones. Sometimes they're easy to resize and align, other times they are not. Especially when the pre-made map doesn't apply the same grid to the entire map, such as rooms separated by thick sections of mountain. Get your grid to line up for one room, and it no longer lines up for the rest of the map.
They should either just use 5' grids, or no grids at all. It's easier to add a grid to a gridless map, than it is to add a grid and get it to line up with an existing grid.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Are you trying to shrink the maps, or expand them so that a 5’ grid divides the 10’ grid in two?
Seems like it would be better and faster just to enlarge the map image so a 5’ grid overlayed on top of the 10’ grid and could be adjusted easily.
It's a problem you are inventing for yourself. The 10 foot scale is from before you were born and is an easily understood method for presenting dungeons. They don't do it to be annoying.
Just draw the encounter on a battlemat, it's not that hard. If you're printing the map, draw in the extra lines before you laminate it.
The map is a MAP, not a battlespace. I'm a GM too and you have to what you have to do.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale