I ask the following question having never played a character above level 12.
One of the things that irks me with 5e (until 18 months ago I hadn't played the game since 2e) is the level 20 cap on PCs. For example, if you say started as a Rogue and went to level 3 before multiclassing into a Wizard you can now go no higher than level 17 in your second but primary class. Does anyone play to these levels and then allow such a character to still progress to level 20 in Wizard whilst remaining a level 3 Rogue?
I have run games to 20. This would be bad game design.
As Xalthu indicated, part of what balances multiclassing is the opportunity cost of losing high level features. When you decide to multiclass, you are tracing immediate diversification and synergy for long-term benefits. That makes the choice meaningful and important.
If players knew that their long-term campaign would have no real penalties for multiclassing, that is going to change the metric for whether they do it or not—which also is not great for the health of a campaign.
Next, allowing you to gain levels in any non-maxed class creates a weird situation for players who stuck with their class. Now you are at level 20 in a single class… and your 18/2 character and you gain a level. For them, they’re going to 19 in a class they trained in for months or years of game time… for you, your elite, specialized character is now deciding to have a midlife crisis and start dabbling in a different career at level 1. That would feel incredibly strange at those levels.
Finally, things already really start to break down at high levels in terms of encounter design. It isn’t impossible to balance, but it is a bit more challenging than lower or mid levels. Allowing large amounts of multiclassing would result in even harder to balance encounters and likely longer, more boring turns.
All told, this is one of those things that might seem good on paper, but if you have ever played at those high levels, you begin to see how it could be a disaster in actual gameplay.
Having played at those levels there are ways to deal - but they are all homebrew so be careful. Since I’ve been running an FR campaign world since 3e I’ve had to figure out ways to accommodate the multitude of epic level characters built into the world. According the the 5e rules (2024 version) the players are capped at L20 but can still adventure receiving an epic feat every 30k exp. Essentially your eliminating that cap and granting a new Level but with nay the feat and nothing else including HP and PB as well as stat boosts. What I did was create some some “epic prestige classes” for single class PCs. They get additional HP a PB progression and some sort of power additions instead of the epic feat and only get the epic feat every 4th level. I started with the archmage (of which there are an abundance in FR). The prestige class allows for the learning of epic/elven high magic at L21 then increases the spell slots for selected levels at the other 4 levels of archmage so that a L25 archmage would have one more slot of each level than a L20 Mage. In 1e the requirement for a switch class PC was that you had to Xcode the level of your old class with the level of your new class before you could use any of the abilities of the old except your HP and armor & weapons proficiencies. This is part of why Elminster was listed as a L1F/L2T/L3Cl/L35W but carried around a magic longsword regularly. I changed this to : you gain no experience for any part of an adventure where you use the other classes abilities unless the classes are of equal level. Ie if your a Ranger/mage and ranger is higher in level you get no experience if your using your ranger abilities and spells and not your mage abilities and spells. If overall character level is below L20 I let you multiclass as normal but at epic levels your struggling to break old habits and learn new ones so there is a cost. Balancing encounters is indeed tough but by upping numbers, AC, HP and abilities ( like giving dragons levels in sorceror) it’s not impossible. Granted the vast majority of campaigns are really extended oneshots that will never reach L20+ before you finish and retire the adventurers but it can be done for worlds that are continuing stories where new ( or redesigned and updated) adventures can move PCs to L20 and beyond at least potentially.
I do wish that there were more levels in general, and that the class features were spread out a bit more, so that you could focus on the subclass features as opposed to the general class features.
Way to broadstroke things. I've been in and known of plenty of games that went to level 20. And some that even used the Epic Boon rule for going beyond 20.
To answer the question though, even the ones that are were level 20 or beyond, the cap for total levels remained at 20. Allowing muticlass to go 20/20 is just too powerful unless everyone is multiclassed.
Keryth, I’ve run a number, and most of my group have been playing for years but even here in theNYC area most of the players aren’t old hands but are fairly new. Frequently, from what I’ve seen over the years, the old hands tend to gravitate to each other with nay occasional additions of newer players. Meanwhile the newer players form their own groups.
As the owner of DDB, ya I figured they set the cap. I'm just saying its a computer program, There does not have to be a level cap for characters.
Just remove the cap, add the ability to add boons to characters. And let the players do what they want.
No skin off WoTC nose.
It may be easy for Wizards to do, but it is bad for players and DMs. D&D Beyond exists to facilitate playing the game within the rules. Making it easy to do something not allowed by the rules can create confusion about what the official rules are. That could create all kinds of problem when people plan ahead when leveling or when a DM is trying to figure out how long a campaign should last.
If you want to level up classes after 20, it is not that hard to do - instead of adding a class level, just make a feature that confers the benefits of that class level. It takes a little effort, sure, but, on the whole, it takes a lot less net effort for a very small minority to use the homebrew than the overwhelming majority to constantly explain “I know D&D Beyond supports it, but the rules do not allow it and we’re following the rules at my table.”
And anyone can follow the rules at whatever table. This is just having an option that if a DM wants to run a table of fifth level fighters who all became wizards and now level 20 wizards also.
And I'm sorry if there are DMs out there who cave into whiny players about what they want to do on their table.
I've played plenty of games over the years in which we were all in our mid-twenties level wise. It's not that big a deal
And yes, currently we just write it out on paper and ignore D&D beyond to do it
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Playing since 79. Woot
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I ask the following question having never played a character above level 12.
One of the things that irks me with 5e (until 18 months ago I hadn't played the game since 2e) is the level 20 cap on PCs. For example, if you say started as a Rogue and went to level 3 before multiclassing into a Wizard you can now go no higher than level 17 in your second but primary class. Does anyone play to these levels and then allow such a character to still progress to level 20 in Wizard whilst remaining a level 3 Rogue?
Curious.
Honestly, few campaigns go beyond level 12-13ish, do 20 isn’t an issue.
As far as 20 theoretically, it makes it a choice. You want 2 levels in some other class, you give up the level 19-20 features.
I have run games to 20. This would be bad game design.
As Xalthu indicated, part of what balances multiclassing is the opportunity cost of losing high level features. When you decide to multiclass, you are tracing immediate diversification and synergy for long-term benefits. That makes the choice meaningful and important.
If players knew that their long-term campaign would have no real penalties for multiclassing, that is going to change the metric for whether they do it or not—which also is not great for the health of a campaign.
Next, allowing you to gain levels in any non-maxed class creates a weird situation for players who stuck with their class. Now you are at level 20 in a single class… and your 18/2 character and you gain a level. For them, they’re going to 19 in a class they trained in for months or years of game time… for you, your elite, specialized character is now deciding to have a midlife crisis and start dabbling in a different career at level 1. That would feel incredibly strange at those levels.
Finally, things already really start to break down at high levels in terms of encounter design. It isn’t impossible to balance, but it is a bit more challenging than lower or mid levels. Allowing large amounts of multiclassing would result in even harder to balance encounters and likely longer, more boring turns.
All told, this is one of those things that might seem good on paper, but if you have ever played at those high levels, you begin to see how it could be a disaster in actual gameplay.
Having played at those levels there are ways to deal - but they are all homebrew so be careful. Since I’ve been running an FR campaign world since 3e I’ve had to figure out ways to accommodate the multitude of epic level characters built into the world. According the the 5e rules (2024 version) the players are capped at L20 but can still adventure receiving an epic feat every 30k exp. Essentially your eliminating that cap and granting a new Level but with nay the feat and nothing else including HP and PB as well as stat boosts. What I did was create some some “epic prestige classes” for single class PCs. They get additional HP a PB progression and some sort of power additions instead of the epic feat and only get the epic feat every 4th level. I started with the archmage (of which there are an abundance in FR). The prestige class allows for the learning of epic/elven high magic at L21 then increases the spell slots for selected levels at the other 4 levels of archmage so that a L25 archmage would have one more slot of each level than a L20 Mage. In 1e the requirement for a switch class PC was that you had to Xcode the level of your old class with the level of your new class before you could use any of the abilities of the old except your HP and armor & weapons proficiencies. This is part of why Elminster was listed as a L1F/L2T/L3Cl/L35W but carried around a magic longsword regularly. I changed this to : you gain no experience for any part of an adventure where you use the other classes abilities unless the classes are of equal level. Ie if your a Ranger/mage and ranger is higher in level you get no experience if your using your ranger abilities and spells and not your mage abilities and spells. If overall character level is below L20 I let you multiclass as normal but at epic levels your struggling to break old habits and learn new ones so there is a cost. Balancing encounters is indeed tough but by upping numbers, AC, HP and abilities ( like giving dragons levels in sorceror) it’s not impossible. Granted the vast majority of campaigns are really extended oneshots that will never reach L20+ before you finish and retire the adventurers but it can be done for worlds that are continuing stories where new ( or redesigned and updated) adventures can move PCs to L20 and beyond at least potentially.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I do wish that there were more levels in general, and that the class features were spread out a bit more, so that you could focus on the subclass features as opposed to the general class features.
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Way to broadstroke things. I've been in and known of plenty of games that went to level 20. And some that even used the Epic Boon rule for going beyond 20.
To answer the question though, even the ones that are were level 20 or beyond, the cap for total levels remained at 20. Allowing muticlass to go 20/20 is just too powerful unless everyone is multiclassed.
D&D beyond needs to allow you to make PCs above 20th level.
Regardless of what the designs think is good.
Playing since 79. Woot
It’s not DDB, it’s WOTC that set the level cap.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Keryth, I’ve run a number, and most of my group have been playing for years but even here in theNYC area most of the players aren’t old hands but are fairly new. Frequently, from what I’ve seen over the years, the old hands tend to gravitate to each other with nay occasional additions of newer players. Meanwhile the newer players form their own groups.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
As the owner of DDB, ya I figured they set the cap. I'm just saying its a computer program, There does not have to be a level cap for characters.
Just remove the cap, add the ability to add boons to characters. And let the players do what they want.
No skin off WoTC nose.
Playing since 79. Woot
It may be easy for Wizards to do, but it is bad for players and DMs. D&D Beyond exists to facilitate playing the game within the rules. Making it easy to do something not allowed by the rules can create confusion about what the official rules are. That could create all kinds of problem when people plan ahead when leveling or when a DM is trying to figure out how long a campaign should last.
If you want to level up classes after 20, it is not that hard to do - instead of adding a class level, just make a feature that confers the benefits of that class level. It takes a little effort, sure, but, on the whole, it takes a lot less net effort for a very small minority to use the homebrew than the overwhelming majority to constantly explain “I know D&D Beyond supports it, but the rules do not allow it and we’re following the rules at my table.”
And anyone can follow the rules at whatever table. This is just having an option that if a DM wants to run a table of fifth level fighters who all became wizards and now level 20 wizards also.
And I'm sorry if there are DMs out there who cave into whiny players about what they want to do on their table.
I've played plenty of games over the years in which we were all in our mid-twenties level wise. It's not that big a deal
And yes, currently we just write it out on paper and ignore D&D beyond to do it
Playing since 79. Woot