Question for the DMs out there that run their Dragons as Spellcasters...
Per the 2014 MM the "Variant" for Spellcasting Dragons states:
Young or Older can Cast Spells
Number of Spells equals it's Charisma Modifier
Each Spell can be Cast Once
Max Spell Level equals One-Third the Dragon's Challenge Rating
This is a good beginning to determining what Spells a Dragon can cast, what level the spells are, and how many times they can cast it.
As this Variant is talking about Spell Level, and being limited on the number of times that spells can be cast, one can assume they are talking about spell levels 1-9 that would have Spell Slots.
Aside from this, how are we (or you DMs at your Tables), supposed to determine how many Cantrips a Dragon would know, and are they able to cast these at-will like any other Caster?
Thoughts?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
As DM you can give Dragons any cantrips but it should usually be the one of weakest option to choose from, between its Breath Weapon or other far more powerful spells as combat only last so long. But it could prove useful when the Dragon wants to spam attacks from long range +120 feet for example
RAW the specific “each spell can be cast once per day” of the sidebar overrides the general rule for cantrips, and they’d be treated the same as other spell picks in this instance. Practically speaking there’s no balance reason a creature can’t have utility cantrips that function normally in addition to the outlined pucks, and damage ones are nearly pointless in this case because it’d take their entire action for a fraction of the damage.
Question for the DMs out there that run their Dragons as Spellcasters...
Per the 2014 MM the "Variant" for Spellcasting Dragons states:
Young or Older can Cast Spells
Number of Spells equals it's Charisma Modifier
Each Spell can be Cast Once
Max Spell Level equals One-Third the Dragon's Challenge Rating
This is a good beginning to determining what Spells a Dragon can cast, what level the spells are, and how many times they can cast it.
As this Variant is talking about Spell Level, and being limited on the number of times that spells can be cast, one can assume they are talking about spell levels 1-9 that would have Spell Slots.
Aside from this, how are we (or you DMs at your Tables), supposed to determine how many Cantrips a Dragon would know, and are they able to cast these at-will like any other Caster?
Thoughts?
2014 MM page 9 or 10 talks about Innate Spellcasting and a creature that has the ability must pick and use a spellcasting class as the base for known and prepared spells and cantrips, and gives a bit on how spells are cast.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
My judgement on the casting rules in the MM are twofold: 1) treat the max spell level as defining the effective sorceror level then look how many cantrips that level can have, then they cast them at will as a sorceror of that level. 2) most of the time I just make them sorcerors ( or Druids ) of Half CR level and have them cast that way.
Having anything with innate casting makes a lot of sense to model it after a sorcerer (they are the innate caster PCs, afterall). In my worlds, dragons tend to be the most innate of the innate casters, the most magical of magical creatures, if you will.
To answer your question directly, I'd take number of cantrips for an "equivalent" sorcerer PC and add 2 at a minimum, but I'd try and find those that make sense for the type of dragon it is.
Make sense as in go with the dragon’s theme? Or peaked sense by providing access to off theme offense? I can easily see a red dragon developing cone of cold or a white dragon developing fireball to deal with foes that planned for its normal abilities.
I see it more as leaning into their type. Since they aren't wizards, they don't choose their magic, their magic chooses them. A red dragon would lean heavy into fire magic since that's the primordial essence they draw their very being from.
Not to say that dragons-as-wizards couldn't be (or weren't) a thing. It's just something I would maybe do for select dragons and not as a blanket idea.
Greetings D&D Beyond and Community,
Question for the DMs out there that run their Dragons as Spellcasters...
Per the 2014 MM the "Variant" for Spellcasting Dragons states:
This is a good beginning to determining what Spells a Dragon can cast, what level the spells are, and how many times they can cast it.
As this Variant is talking about Spell Level, and being limited on the number of times that spells can be cast, one can assume they are talking about spell levels 1-9 that would have Spell Slots.
Aside from this, how are we (or you DMs at your Tables), supposed to determine how many Cantrips a Dragon would know, and are they able to cast these at-will like any other Caster?
Thoughts?
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
As DM you can give Dragons any cantrips but it should usually be the one of weakest option to choose from, between its Breath Weapon or other far more powerful spells as combat only last so long. But it could prove useful when the Dragon wants to spam attacks from long range +120 feet for example
RAW the specific “each spell can be cast once per day” of the sidebar overrides the general rule for cantrips, and they’d be treated the same as other spell picks in this instance. Practically speaking there’s no balance reason a creature can’t have utility cantrips that function normally in addition to the outlined pucks, and damage ones are nearly pointless in this case because it’d take their entire action for a fraction of the damage.
2014 MM page 9 or 10 talks about Innate Spellcasting and a creature that has the ability must pick and use a spellcasting class as the base for known and prepared spells and cantrips, and gives a bit on how spells are cast.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
My judgement on the casting rules in the MM are twofold:
1) treat the max spell level as defining the effective sorceror level then look how many cantrips that level can have, then they cast them at will as a sorceror of that level.
2) most of the time I just make them sorcerors ( or Druids ) of Half CR level and have them cast that way.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Having anything with innate casting makes a lot of sense to model it after a sorcerer (they are the innate caster PCs, afterall). In my worlds, dragons tend to be the most innate of the innate casters, the most magical of magical creatures, if you will.
To answer your question directly, I'd take number of cantrips for an "equivalent" sorcerer PC and add 2 at a minimum, but I'd try and find those that make sense for the type of dragon it is.
Make sense as in go with the dragon’s theme? Or peaked sense by providing access to off theme offense? I can easily see a red dragon developing cone of cold or a white dragon developing fireball to deal with foes that planned for its normal abilities.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I see it more as leaning into their type. Since they aren't wizards, they don't choose their magic, their magic chooses them. A red dragon would lean heavy into fire magic since that's the primordial essence they draw their very being from.
Not to say that dragons-as-wizards couldn't be (or weren't) a thing. It's just something I would maybe do for select dragons and not as a blanket idea.