Could someone please explain to me the point of Otto's Irresistible Dance?
It's a 7th level spell Enchantment spell affecting only 1 creature, targeting Wisdom, requiring concentration , which the affected creature can break free from with a successful WIS save.
It seems to me there are so many better options for incapacitating opponents using lower level spells: Mass Suggestion, Hold Monster, Phantasmal Killer just to name a few.
My current thoughts are the way to fix it would be to make it concentration-free or to make it affect multiple creatures, perhaps up to 300 hp worth of creatures.
Who else wants to see a Sorcerer cast Otto's Irresistible Dance to force a bunch of hobgoblins to form a Conga line??
Unlike other spells it works immediately, no save, and the creature must use up their action to try and break free of it. Even if it succeeds, it has cost them their actions and turns. Meanwhile, everyone gets advantage to hit it.
Used correctly (with tactics) it's extremely useful. Sorcs and Enchanters can even affect two at once. It's powerful when used right.
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Well, Compulsion is probably the closest you're going to get to that conga line effect.
But yeah, the important thing is the "irresistible" part. There are more versatile spells, sure, but they have a decent chance of failure. Another thing to keep in mind is that the spell doesn't technically restrain or reduce the target's walking speed... it simply forces the target to spend their entire movement speed shuffling in place. Things like Freedom of Movement or other spells/items that prevent a character from being trapped in place won't save them from an Irresistible Dance. At minimum it guarantees at least one round of stopping any creature (that isn't immune to being charmed) right where it stands, and giving every other party member advantage.
The only question is, on the round that it finally does manage to break free of the compulsion to dance, does the break come before or after it spends all its movement to shuffle in place? I guess since a character can take an action before moving, and the spell doesn't specify any particular order that actions must be taken in, they'll get their movement back right away. So the worst possible scenario would be to cast this on a target when your turn is right before theirs, and if they manage to snap out of it immediately at the start of their turn. Still, at the very least you've forced them to spend their action for a turn.
Unlike other spells it works immediately, no save, and the creature must use up their action to try and break free of it. Even if it succeeds, it has cost them their actions and turns. Meanwhile, everyone gets advantage to hit it.
Used correctly (with tactics) it's extremely useful. Sorcs and Enchanters can eveWelln affect two at once. It's powerful when used right.
Well, it works immediately for only 1 turn guaranteed. By upcasting Hold Monster at 7th level, you can potentially paralyze up to 3 creatures. Paralysis > Moving in place most of the time.
Looking at Mass Suggestion, you affect up to 12 creatures. Let's say your party is fighting 8 creatures. Not at all unusual at the level at which you get this spell. Let's say half make the save and half don't. So you can Suggest that 4 or 5 creatures dance together in a circle around the BBEG until the dancers get exhausted. No concentration and no saving throw after the first one. This seems much more fun, flexible, and powerful than Otto's (ir)Resistible Dance in most situations.
I'm not saying OIDance can't be useful. It's usefulness is just too blah compared to lower level spells much of the time.
Well, Compulsion is probably the closest you're going to get to that conga line effect.
But yeah, the important thing is the "irresistible" part. There are more versatile spells, sure, but they have a decent chance of failure. Another thing to keep in mind is that the spell doesn't technically restrain or reduce the target's walking speed... it simply forces the target to spend their entire movement speed shuffling in place. Things like Freedom of Movement or other spells/items that prevent a character from being trapped in place won't save them from an Irresistible Dance. At minimum it guarantees at least one round of stopping any creature (that isn't immune to being charmed) right where it stands, and giving every other party member advantage.
Re: the Conga line thing, see my comment above.
Yeah, the vast majority of opponents a party will fight will not have Freedom of Movement cast on them before the fight unless your campaign is just full of anti-party Clerics or Rangers all at pretty high level. Sure that can happen, but is that worth one of the very few 7th level slots your Wizard has? It seems to make much more sense as a 5th level spell, which makes it comparable to Hold Monster or Bigby's Hand spells.
Honestly, thinking about it, it feels more like one of those spells that's almost better as a DM tool than it is as a spell for a player to use.
The choice between spending a turn trying to break the spell, or risking disadvantage to let out a ranged attack or something while shuffling in place. It's more interesting than just getting caught with a hold person, where your turn is just spent, no ifs ands or buts. The choice the target has to make is really the most interesting part, since most other hold spells automatically run a check again each turn (or get cancelled out by taking damage, or whatever other triggers give the opportunity to break the spell. And I'm of the mindset that it's usually more interesting to give these tactical choices to the players rather than the DM
The game is balanced with the assumption that combat will last about three rounds. Otto's Irresistable Dance can take a melee enemy out of combat for at *least* one of those three turns, possibly more, while other enemies may choose to simply not move and accept the advantage/disadvantage in order to continue attacking/casting spells/etc.
It's intended to be used against major bosses, not minions. It can seriously mess with *dragons*, or any other creature not immune to charm.
The whole 'impacts without allowing a saving throw' thing is really, really important. Think of it as a tool for controlling a creature with Legendary Resistance, maybe.
Well, it works immediately for only 1 turn guaranteed. By upcasting Hold Monster at 7th level, you can potentially paralyze up to 3 creatures. Paralysis > Moving in place most of the time.
Wrecking a dragon for 1 round > not getting any other save-or-suck spell to stick on account of 5 high save bonuses and 3 uses of Legendary Resistance.
I suppose you could justify memorizing that spell specifically for a Legendary resistance boss fight...still seems weird to me that it takes concentration, though, when Mass Suggestion at 6th level does not and lasts much longer and uses the exact same saving throw stat.
I suppose you could justify memorizing that spell specifically for a Legendary resistance boss fight...still seems weird to me that it takes concentration, though, when Mass Suggestion at 6th level does not and lasts much longer and uses the exact same saving throw stat.
Look, it takes a lot of effort to maniacally shout "DANCE, MY PRETTIES, DANCE!" round after round.
The only question is, on the round that it finally does manage to break free of the compulsion to dance, does the break come before or after it spends all its movement to shuffle in place? I guess since a character can take an action before moving, and the spell doesn't specify any particular order that actions must be taken in, they'll get their movement back right away. So the worst possible scenario would be to cast this on a target when your turn is right before theirs, and if they manage to snap out of it immediately at the start of their turn. Still, at the very least you've forced them to spend their action for a turn.
On that note, looking at the wording of otto's irresistible dance it says the creature "must use all its movement dancing." So for whether it can use its action before using its movement I ask this: can a creature use its movement before its action? If it can, it must.
The combat effectiveness can be debatable, but like many Bard spells I always think of the out of combat role playing possibilities. It automatically happens for at least a little while, you can be 30 feet away and just need to see the target, and because the target doesn't need to see or hear you an argument can be made that you can cast it without the target knowing who's responsible. Embarrassment, distraction, the possibility of dropping held items or slipping, and more...all without actually causing harm!
Plus it affects CREATURES, not just humanoids. Make that horse dance and maybe the rider falls off! Cause a dog to dance and delight a crowd of onlookers! Tell the octopus to dance and catch the attention of a nearby shark! Cause a flumph to dance because it would be adorable!
I suppose you could justify memorizing that spell specifically for a Legendary resistance boss fight...still seems weird to me that it takes concentration, though, when Mass Suggestion at 6th level does not and lasts much longer and uses the exact same saving throw stat.
Look, it takes a lot of effort to maniacally shout "DANCE, MY PRETTIES, DANCE!" round after round.
Sorry, I can't read the tone of online text posts very well, so I can't tell if your reply is totally facetious, half sarcastic/half serious, or what.
The combat effectiveness can be debatable, but like many Bard spells I always think of the out of combat role playing possibilities. It automatically happens for at least a little while, you can be 30 feet away and just need to see the target, and because the target doesn't need to see or hear you an argument can be made that you can cast it without the target knowing who's responsible. Embarrassment, distraction, the possibility of dropping held items or slipping, and more...all without actually causing harm!
Plus it affects CREATURES, not just humanoids. Make that horse dance and maybe the rider falls off! Cause a dog to dance and delight a crowd of onlookers! Tell the octopus to dance and catch the attention of a nearby shark! Cause a flumph to dance because it would be adorable!
Yeah, I suppose blowing a 7th level spell slot to get a laugh at someone could be fun. Seems to me that you could aim for something similar with the Command spell (via Multi-class or or just plain old Cleric) or Prestidigitation (a cantrip), though, esp if the caster is a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell. I'm not much convinced that, as written, this spell is really worth it's weight in spell slots.
Well, it works immediately for only 1 turn guaranteed. By upcasting Hold Monster at 7th level, you can potentially paralyze up to 3 creatures. Paralysis > Moving in place most of the time.
Wrecking a dragon for 1 round > not getting any other save-or-suck spell to stick on account of 5 high save bonuses and 3 uses of Legendary Resistance.
The only place where this matters a lot is if you are fighting 2 or 3 hostile dragons at the same time who all have Legendary Resistance. A solo dragon is going to get wrecked by an appropriately leveled party with four or more adventurers no matter what due to action economy unless the party gets surprised, in which case being able to cast this spell probably won't help much anyway because the dragon will probably let loose with dragon breath during the surprise round and kill the low-hp Wizard/Sorcerer right from the get-go.
Could someone please explain to me the point of Otto's Irresistible Dance?
It's a 7th level spell Enchantment spell affecting only 1 creature, targeting Wisdom, requiring concentration , which the affected creature can break free from with a successful WIS save.
It seems to me there are so many better options for incapacitating opponents using lower level spells: Mass Suggestion, Hold Monster, Phantasmal Killer just to name a few.
My current thoughts are the way to fix it would be to make it concentration-free or to make it affect multiple creatures, perhaps up to 300 hp worth of creatures.
Who else wants to see a Sorcerer cast Otto's Irresistible Dance to force a bunch of hobgoblins to form a Conga line??
Unlike other spells it works immediately, no save, and the creature must use up their action to try and break free of it. Even if it succeeds, it has cost them their actions and turns. Meanwhile, everyone gets advantage to hit it.
Used correctly (with tactics) it's extremely useful. Sorcs and Enchanters can even affect two at once. It's powerful when used right.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Well, Compulsion is probably the closest you're going to get to that conga line effect.
But yeah, the important thing is the "irresistible" part. There are more versatile spells, sure, but they have a decent chance of failure. Another thing to keep in mind is that the spell doesn't technically restrain or reduce the target's walking speed... it simply forces the target to spend their entire movement speed shuffling in place. Things like Freedom of Movement or other spells/items that prevent a character from being trapped in place won't save them from an Irresistible Dance. At minimum it guarantees at least one round of stopping any creature (that isn't immune to being charmed) right where it stands, and giving every other party member advantage.
The only question is, on the round that it finally does manage to break free of the compulsion to dance, does the break come before or after it spends all its movement to shuffle in place? I guess since a character can take an action before moving, and the spell doesn't specify any particular order that actions must be taken in, they'll get their movement back right away. So the worst possible scenario would be to cast this on a target when your turn is right before theirs, and if they manage to snap out of it immediately at the start of their turn. Still, at the very least you've forced them to spend their action for a turn.
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Well, it works immediately for only 1 turn guaranteed. By upcasting Hold Monster at 7th level, you can potentially paralyze up to 3 creatures. Paralysis > Moving in place most of the time.
Looking at Mass Suggestion, you affect up to 12 creatures. Let's say your party is fighting 8 creatures. Not at all unusual at the level at which you get this spell. Let's say half make the save and half don't. So you can Suggest that 4 or 5 creatures dance together in a circle around the BBEG until the dancers get exhausted. No concentration and no saving throw after the first one. This seems much more fun, flexible, and powerful than Otto's (ir)Resistible Dance in most situations.
I'm not saying OIDance can't be useful. It's usefulness is just too blah compared to lower level spells much of the time.
Re: the Conga line thing, see my comment above.
Yeah, the vast majority of opponents a party will fight will not have Freedom of Movement cast on them before the fight unless your campaign is just full of anti-party Clerics or Rangers all at pretty high level. Sure that can happen, but is that worth one of the very few 7th level slots your Wizard has? It seems to make much more sense as a 5th level spell, which makes it comparable to Hold Monster or Bigby's Hand spells.
Honestly, thinking about it, it feels more like one of those spells that's almost better as a DM tool than it is as a spell for a player to use.
The choice between spending a turn trying to break the spell, or risking disadvantage to let out a ranged attack or something while shuffling in place. It's more interesting than just getting caught with a hold person, where your turn is just spent, no ifs ands or buts. The choice the target has to make is really the most interesting part, since most other hold spells automatically run a check again each turn (or get cancelled out by taking damage, or whatever other triggers give the opportunity to break the spell. And I'm of the mindset that it's usually more interesting to give these tactical choices to the players rather than the DM
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
The game is balanced with the assumption that combat will last about three rounds. Otto's Irresistable Dance can take a melee enemy out of combat for at *least* one of those three turns, possibly more, while other enemies may choose to simply not move and accept the advantage/disadvantage in order to continue attacking/casting spells/etc.
It's intended to be used against major bosses, not minions. It can seriously mess with *dragons*, or any other creature not immune to charm.
The whole 'impacts without allowing a saving throw' thing is really, really important. Think of it as a tool for controlling a creature with Legendary Resistance, maybe.
Wrecking a dragon for 1 round > not getting any other save-or-suck spell to stick on account of 5 high save bonuses and 3 uses of Legendary Resistance.
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I suppose you could justify memorizing that spell specifically for a Legendary resistance boss fight...still seems weird to me that it takes concentration, though, when Mass Suggestion at 6th level does not and lasts much longer and uses the exact same saving throw stat.
Look, it takes a lot of effort to maniacally shout "DANCE, MY PRETTIES, DANCE!" round after round.
On that note, looking at the wording of otto's irresistible dance it says the creature "must use all its movement dancing." So for whether it can use its action before using its movement I ask this: can a creature use its movement before its action? If it can, it must.
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InsiderThe combat effectiveness can be debatable, but like many Bard spells I always think of the out of combat role playing possibilities. It automatically happens for at least a little while, you can be 30 feet away and just need to see the target, and because the target doesn't need to see or hear you an argument can be made that you can cast it without the target knowing who's responsible. Embarrassment, distraction, the possibility of dropping held items or slipping, and more...all without actually causing harm!
Plus it affects CREATURES, not just humanoids. Make that horse dance and maybe the rider falls off! Cause a dog to dance and delight a crowd of onlookers! Tell the octopus to dance and catch the attention of a nearby shark! Cause a flumph to dance because it would be adorable!
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Sorry, I can't read the tone of online text posts very well, so I can't tell if your reply is totally facetious, half sarcastic/half serious, or what.
Yeah, I suppose blowing a 7th level spell slot to get a laugh at someone could be fun. Seems to me that you could aim for something similar with the Command spell (via Multi-class or or just plain old Cleric) or Prestidigitation (a cantrip), though, esp if the caster is a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell. I'm not much convinced that, as written, this spell is really worth it's weight in spell slots.
The only place where this matters a lot is if you are fighting 2 or 3 hostile dragons at the same time who all have Legendary Resistance. A solo dragon is going to get wrecked by an appropriately leveled party with four or more adventurers no matter what due to action economy unless the party gets surprised, in which case being able to cast this spell probably won't help much anyway because the dragon will probably let loose with dragon breath during the surprise round and kill the low-hp Wizard/Sorcerer right from the get-go.