I play a Sorcerer in my DnD group, and was looking through the 9th level spells in advance. There's only 7 of them, and none of them seem to differ from what the Warlock or the Wizard have a choice from at Spellcasting lvl 9 either. I don't mean to be rude when I ask this, but isn't that a bit dull? Wizards can have True Polymorph which, to me, seems so much more interesting. Warlocks have even less of a choice of 9th level spells than Sorcerers do.
From what Sorcerers have a choice of, my favorite would definitely be Gate or Wish.
What spell do you consider to be the best 9th level spell available to Sorcerers? Wish, Meteor Swarm? Why? What about the worst? I would just love some more opinions.
I play a Sorcerer in my DnD group, and was looking through the 9th level spells in advance. There's only 7 of them, and none of them seem to differ from what the Warlock or the Wizard have a choice from at Spellcasting lvl 9 either. I don't mean to be rude when I ask this, but isn't that a bit dull? Wizards can have True Polymorph which, to me, seems so much more interesting. Warlocks have even less of a choice of 9th level spells than Sorcerers do.
From what Sorcerers have a choice of, my favorite would definitely be Gate or Wish.
What spell do you consider to be the best 9th level spell available to Sorcerers? Wish, Meteor Swarm? Why? What about the worst? I would just love some more opinions.
Thank you!
Wizards get more options because that is their whole thing and is why their class and subclass features are not overly amazing - they generally have 1 or 2 good subclass features and the rest are meh and Wizards have less main class features than almost any other class. They're strength is their larger list of spells and the versatility offered by them. Sorcs, however, get more main and subclass feature than a Wizard and have metamagic, the trade-off for balance being a slightly smaller spell list and more limited pool of known spells. Warlocks get a shorter list and limited spell slots - this is because they get a lot of features and "invocations" that often grants at-will spellcasting and multiple cantrip enhancements (Eldritch Blast).
As for my favorite it would be Wish : any spell of 8th or lower level (including lower level cast at 8th level) without concern about casting time or components with the defense of a 9th level spell? Yes please. Really opens up your limited magic pool.
My least liked (but still liked) is Gate. It's useful, yes, no doubt. But I find I'll probably get less use since Sorcs are primarily controllers and battlers and Gate can be useful in totally exploity ways (Gating to a known pool of lava in the plane of fire and having the portal appear over the head of your enemies: you literally smother them with lava) but that's one of those exploits that is great and fun the first time or two but then becomes an annoying chore for the DM and spoils fun in the long term. Outside of exploity things it's use is limited unless you're plane-hopping a lot and if don't have somebody with plane shift. But given that strong enemies/deities/demigods can just decide to prevent the gate, that there are multiple magic items that give you several uses of plane-shift or gate (or Cubic Gate granting unlimited use of both plane shift AND gate to five planes and material plane). And now factor it's possible to travel the planes without any magic items or spells... Yeah, it's limited compared to the others that Sorcs will probably get more use of. Although again it may depend on your campaign.
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Wish. Have a limited spell selection? Not anymore. And I am only refering to the "copy any level 8 or lower spell" part of the effect. That alone makes it the best spell. Period.
Yeah I mean Wish is everything you want for a 9th level spell. It gives you access to 95% of the spell catalog, and you don't even have to pay.
The only downside is that if you go too fancy with it, you may lose the ability to cast it forever, but if you only use it to duplicate spells, and the occasional panic button "I reaaaally wish I was somewhere else and you would just forget about me", you should be fine.
Is it a smart wish ? No. Is it a fun wish ? I think so ;)
I think wish is really a waste. You are giving up your very special one of a kind slot for something of a lower level, and it isn't upcasted to 9th. While your spell list is nearly maxed, you cant use time stop and do something like cast fireball over and over. Meteor swarm to cover the field even. Wish is very fun to make one of the special wishes to, but your DM might say you aren't strong enough to do it, or you can get some high damage to yourself.
It is a good spell all in all, but out of 9th level I wouldn't say it's close to definitely the best.
While your spell list is nearly maxed, you cant use time stop and do something like cast fireball over and over. Meteor swarm to cover the field even.
You can't do that anyway, per the description of time stop:
"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you"
Time Stop is only meant to allow you to buff yourself, or prepare the battlefield. Older editions would let you get around that with the use of spells like Delayed Blast Fireball, but the fact that it's a concentration spell makes it a lot less efficient.
I think wish is really a waste. You are giving up your very special one of a kind slot for something of a lower level, and it isn't upcasted to 9th. While your spell list is nearly maxed, you cant use time stop and do something like cast fireball over and over. Meteor swarm to cover the field even. Wish is very fun to make one of the special wishes to, but your DM might say you aren't strong enough to do it, or you can get some high damage to yourself.
It is a good spell all in all, but out of 9th level I wouldn't say it's close to definitely the best.
You're missing the point of Wish: you can completely ignore casting time and components. This means in the start of a battle you can just Wish for Simulacrum and in a single action (instead of the 12 hour casting time), for free, you have a second you complete with all of your 1st-8th level spell slots instantly doubling your spell capacity WITH double-concentration all for the low price of FREE and you can do this every day.
And you have access to every spell you never would otherwise like Resurrection. You can also use it to become basically immortal by casting Clone free every day and at some point you'll have a long daisy-chain of spare bodies to use if something unfortunate happens to your current one (even old age).
Just with the basic use of spell replication this gets you: almost all spells, free castles, a brief god-mode, free resurrection, double the magic you can normally cast, oh and immortality. All without paying a penny or all taking no more than 6 seconds a day. How is this "a waste" exactly?
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I think wish is really a waste. You are giving up your very special one of a kind slot for something of a lower level, and it isn't upcasted to 9th. While your spell list is nearly maxed, you cant use time stop and do something like cast fireball over and over. Meteor swarm to cover the field even. Wish is very fun to make one of the special wishes to, but your DM might say you aren't strong enough to do it, or you can get some high damage to yourself.
It is a good spell all in all, but out of 9th level I wouldn't say it's close to definitely the best.
You're missing the point of Wish: you can completely ignore casting time and components. This means in the start of a battle you can just Wish for Simulacrum and in a single action (instead of the 12 hour casting time), for free, you have a second you complete with all of your 1st-8th level spell slots instantly doubling your spell capacity WITH double-concentration all for the low price of FREE and you can do this every day.
And you have access to every spell you never would otherwise like Resurrection. You can also use it to become basically immortal by casting Clone free every day and at some point you'll have a long daisy-chain of spare bodies to use if something unfortunate happens to your current one (even old age).
Just with the basic use of spell replication this gets you: almost all spells, free castles, a brief god-mode, free resurrection, double the magic you can normally cast, oh and immortality. All without paying a penny or all taking no more than 6 seconds a day. How is this "a waste" exactly?
This guy gets it. All that. And without even the high risk/high reward aspects of the spell.
That is why wish is the most powerful anything in 5e.
You cant go wrong with Wish. Wish can do almost anything, and can pretty much do everything the others can.
Wish is the most creative, most powerful spell a mortal can weild.
Several 9th level casters working together could use Wish to create impregnable barriers of magic, that even dragons can not pass, create entirely new and sentiment races that have never existed before, possibly even create celestial bodies like moons and things.
A single 9th level caster could use Wish to destroy all of Faerûn with a single spell, skiing it under the ocean or causing it to explode in a massive volcanic eruption. They can create almost anything they can imagine such as falling meteorites to replicate meteor storm, they would wish for an enemy to hear a cripplingly piercing scream in their head, that breaks their mind - essentially replicating Psychic Scream. They could replicate mass polymorph by wishing for it to happen and they could simply wish for their enemy to die.
Wish can replicate everything on your list and is able to do so, so much more.
There are lots of reasons why would wouldn't choose Wish but if you want the most powerful caster in the game, Wish is your go to spell.
Several 9th level casters working together could use Wish to create impregnable barriers of magic, that even dragons can not pass, create entirely new and sentiment races that have never existed before, possibly even create celestial bodies like moons and things.
What you're describing is called a Mystal and it's actually a 10th level spell beyond even Wish. It's a form of magic that changes the fundamental nature of the Weave, something even Wish can often not do. Even Wish has its limits.
Several 9th level casters working together could use Wish to create impregnable barriers of magic, that even dragons can not pass, create entirely new and sentiment races that have never existed before, possibly even create celestial bodies like moons and things.
What you're describing is called a Mystal and it's actually a 10th level spell beyond even Wish. It's a form of magic that changes the fundamental nature of the Weave, something even Wish can often not do. Even Wish has its limits.
Isn't there a thing though, where several 9th level casters can work together, channeling their energies into a single spell, to up cast it to 10th level?
Granted it would be a 10th level spell, but it would be 9th level casters pooling their energies into a single spell - and that spell could still be Wish. I wasn't actually saying that 9th level Wish, could so those things specifically - and though I was clear, but perhaps I should have been more clear on what I actually meant.
I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere that this is possible, though doing so usually kills the casters, which is why is not done very often. 9th level casters are fairly rare, so you wouldn't want to waste their lives on something trivial.
Which is why I said "several 9th level casters working together".
It's like a loophole that allows mortals to use epic magic, if I am remembering it correctly, even now when you technically can't get above 9th level. I am calling upon half remembered information though, so if I am just flat out incorrect that I will accept that.
Even if I am wrong though my opinion about Wish bring the most powerful and creative mortal spell still stands, as I really can't think of any other spell that is so wide ranging and far reaching.
At least not ones that a mortal can use.
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For "worst" 9th level spell, I would probably say Time Stop. Dont get me wrong, I really like the flavor of it and I understand why it has to be the way that it is. But given that it restricts you from dealing any damage and restricts you from moving a certain distance, I feel like the few turns of setup that you get dont really make it powerful enough to merit it being a 9th level spell.
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For "worst" 9th level spell, I would probably say Time Stop. Dont get me wrong, I really like the flavor of it and I understand why it has to be the way that it is. But given that it restricts you from dealing any damage and restricts you from moving a certain distance, I feel like the few turns of setup that you get dont really make it powerful enough to merit it being a 9th level spell.
I have a house rule for Time Stop, that says; when you cast it, it freezes time for everybody but the caster (standard) but then you can continue o attack or take any actions as normal if you continue to attack, the damage builds up and the target of your attacks suffers all the built up damage as soon as time resumes.
So the Wizard/Sorcerer can cast time stop and lay into the biggest creature in the battle, dealing damage that accumulates. Then, when time resumes that creature takes a large amount of damage right off the bat, without any way of avoiding it.
This usually reduces the creatures HP by half, and expends the casters 9th level slot.
None of this RAW or even RAI, instead it's my specific house rule that makes Time Stop much more useful. It also allows me to pit the characters against far more powerful enemies, and helps make those high level battles feel truly epic and earth shaking, because I can bring out the big guns that bit sooner.
It also makes the players who have stuck with a caster class long enough to get Time Stop, feel like their choices were worth it, because despite being squishy, they now weild one of the most powerful spells in the game - making them a force to be reconed with.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Several 9th level casters working together could use Wish to create impregnable barriers of magic, that even dragons can not pass, create entirely new and sentiment races that have never existed before, possibly even create celestial bodies like moons and things.
What you're describing is called a Mystal and it's actually a 10th level spell beyond even Wish. It's a form of magic that changes the fundamental nature of the Weave, something even Wish can often not do. Even Wish has its limits.
Isn't there a thing though, where several 9th level casters can work together, channeling their energies into a single spell, to up cast it to 10th level?
I haven't seen that in the rules anywhere that I've read. I mean, it's a pretty common idea in movies / novels / video games as a story element, but I've never seen rules allowing the PCs to attempt it.
Several 9th level casters working together could use Wish to create impregnable barriers of magic, that even dragons can not pass, create entirely new and sentiment races that have never existed before, possibly even create celestial bodies like moons and things.
What you're describing is called a Mystal and it's actually a 10th level spell beyond even Wish. It's a form of magic that changes the fundamental nature of the Weave, something even Wish can often not do. Even Wish has its limits.
Isn't there a thing though, where several 9th level casters can work together, channeling their energies into a single spell, to up cast it to 10th level?
I haven't seen that in the rules anywhere that I've read. I mean, it's a pretty common idea in movies / novels / video games as a story element, but I've never seen rules allowing the PCs to attempt it.
I have actually been looking myself as well and can't find it either. Maybe I am mistaking this as being a d&d thing, when it's actually from another game or something.
Either that or its in some lore that is so obscure, it isn't easily found on Google lol.
I thought I had come across this while doing a deep dive on lore, a while ago but now can't find it again, so I will just take it as if I was incorrect until I actually come across the specific bit of lore that supports it.
Shame we can't get the guys who created the lore and stuff to come do a talk on here about all the obscure little titbits of lore and the things that people always get wrong.
I think that would be awesome.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I have actually been looking myself as well and can't find it either. Maybe I am mistaking this as being a d&d thing, when it's actually from another game or something.
Either that or its in some lore that is so obscure, it isn't easily found on Google lol.
I thought I had come across this while doing a deep dive on lore, a while ago but now can't find it again, so I will just take it as if I was incorrect until I actually come across the specific bit of lore that supports it.
Shame we can't get the guys who created the lore and stuff to come do a talk on here about all the obscure little titbits of lore and the things that people always get wrong.
I think that would be awesome.
I think what you are thinking of is part of the expanded lore (novels and games, etc), but not part of the official rules. Aka "NPC magic."
I remember hearing it from a d&d lore youtube video.
Quote from Cyb3rM1nd>> Wizards get more options because that is their whole thing
??? Sorcerers are naturally attuned to magic so why wouldn't it be their thing as well?
They really should beef up the number of spells for imo 7th - 9th in general. Picking and originality get slim and everything seem so generic at 9th.
I'd actually like to see Wish heavily modified to take a lot more time and cost to cast. There is no reason to take any other 9th level spell with the way Wish is atm.
I play a Sorcerer in my DnD group, and was looking through the 9th level spells in advance. There's only 7 of them, and none of them seem to differ from what the Warlock or the Wizard have a choice from at Spellcasting lvl 9 either. I don't mean to be rude when I ask this, but isn't that a bit dull? Wizards can have True Polymorph which, to me, seems so much more interesting. Warlocks have even less of a choice of 9th level spells than Sorcerers do.
From what Sorcerers have a choice of, my favorite would definitely be Gate or Wish.
What spell do you consider to be the best 9th level spell available to Sorcerers? Wish, Meteor Swarm? Why? What about the worst? I would just love some more opinions.
Thank you!
Wizards get more options because that is their whole thing and is why their class and subclass features are not overly amazing - they generally have 1 or 2 good subclass features and the rest are meh and Wizards have less main class features than almost any other class. They're strength is their larger list of spells and the versatility offered by them. Sorcs, however, get more main and subclass feature than a Wizard and have metamagic, the trade-off for balance being a slightly smaller spell list and more limited pool of known spells. Warlocks get a shorter list and limited spell slots - this is because they get a lot of features and "invocations" that often grants at-will spellcasting and multiple cantrip enhancements (Eldritch Blast).
As for my favorite it would be Wish : any spell of 8th or lower level (including lower level cast at 8th level) without concern about casting time or components with the defense of a 9th level spell? Yes please. Really opens up your limited magic pool.
My least liked (but still liked) is Gate. It's useful, yes, no doubt. But I find I'll probably get less use since Sorcs are primarily controllers and battlers and Gate can be useful in totally exploity ways (Gating to a known pool of lava in the plane of fire and having the portal appear over the head of your enemies: you literally smother them with lava) but that's one of those exploits that is great and fun the first time or two but then becomes an annoying chore for the DM and spoils fun in the long term. Outside of exploity things it's use is limited unless you're plane-hopping a lot and if don't have somebody with plane shift. But given that strong enemies/deities/demigods can just decide to prevent the gate, that there are multiple magic items that give you several uses of plane-shift or gate (or Cubic Gate granting unlimited use of both plane shift AND gate to five planes and material plane). And now factor it's possible to travel the planes without any magic items or spells... Yeah, it's limited compared to the others that Sorcs will probably get more use of. Although again it may depend on your campaign.
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Wish. Have a limited spell selection? Not anymore. And I am only refering to the "copy any level 8 or lower spell" part of the effect. That alone makes it the best spell. Period.
Yeah I mean Wish is everything you want for a 9th level spell. It gives you access to 95% of the spell catalog, and you don't even have to pay.
The only downside is that if you go too fancy with it, you may lose the ability to cast it forever, but if you only use it to duplicate spells, and the occasional panic button "I reaaaally wish I was somewhere else and you would just forget about me", you should be fine.
Is it a smart wish ? No. Is it a fun wish ? I think so ;)
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I think wish is really a waste. You are giving up your very special one of a kind slot for something of a lower level, and it isn't upcasted to 9th. While your spell list is nearly maxed, you cant use time stop and do something like cast fireball over and over. Meteor swarm to cover the field even. Wish is very fun to make one of the special wishes to, but your DM might say you aren't strong enough to do it, or you can get some high damage to yourself.
It is a good spell all in all, but out of 9th level I wouldn't say it's close to definitely the best.
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Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
You can't do that anyway, per the description of time stop:
"This spell ends if one of the actions you use during this period, or any effects that you create during this period, affects a creature other than you"
Time Stop is only meant to allow you to buff yourself, or prepare the battlefield. Older editions would let you get around that with the use of spells like Delayed Blast Fireball, but the fact that it's a concentration spell makes it a lot less efficient.
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That's good clarification on that. It was misused before and I kept that bad knowledge I guess.
Also known as CrafterB and DankMemer.
Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
You're missing the point of Wish: you can completely ignore casting time and components. This means in the start of a battle you can just Wish for Simulacrum and in a single action (instead of the 12 hour casting time), for free, you have a second you complete with all of your 1st-8th level spell slots instantly doubling your spell capacity WITH double-concentration all for the low price of FREE and you can do this every day.
And you have access to every spell you never would otherwise like Resurrection. You can also use it to become basically immortal by casting Clone free every day and at some point you'll have a long daisy-chain of spare bodies to use if something unfortunate happens to your current one (even old age).
Just with the basic use of spell replication this gets you: almost all spells, free castles, a brief god-mode, free resurrection, double the magic you can normally cast, oh and immortality. All without paying a penny or all taking no more than 6 seconds a day. How is this "a waste" exactly?
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
This guy gets it. All that. And without even the high risk/high reward aspects of the spell.
That is why wish is the most powerful anything in 5e.
Wish, and it's not even a question.
"The Epic Level Handbook wasn't that bad, guys.
Guys, pls."
You cant go wrong with Wish. Wish can do almost anything, and can pretty much do everything the others can.
Wish is the most creative, most powerful spell a mortal can weild.
Several 9th level casters working together could use Wish to create impregnable barriers of magic, that even dragons can not pass, create entirely new and sentiment races that have never existed before, possibly even create celestial bodies like moons and things.
A single 9th level caster could use Wish to destroy all of Faerûn with a single spell, skiing it under the ocean or causing it to explode in a massive volcanic eruption. They can create almost anything they can imagine such as falling meteorites to replicate meteor storm, they would wish for an enemy to hear a cripplingly piercing scream in their head, that breaks their mind - essentially replicating Psychic Scream. They could replicate mass polymorph by wishing for it to happen and they could simply wish for their enemy to die.
Wish can replicate everything on your list and is able to do so, so much more.
There are lots of reasons why would wouldn't choose Wish but if you want the most powerful caster in the game, Wish is your go to spell.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
What you're describing is called a Mystal and it's actually a 10th level spell beyond even Wish. It's a form of magic that changes the fundamental nature of the Weave, something even Wish can often not do. Even Wish has its limits.
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Isn't there a thing though, where several 9th level casters can work together, channeling their energies into a single spell, to up cast it to 10th level?
Granted it would be a 10th level spell, but it would be 9th level casters pooling their energies into a single spell - and that spell could still be Wish. I wasn't actually saying that 9th level Wish, could so those things specifically - and though I was clear, but perhaps I should have been more clear on what I actually meant.
I'm pretty sure I have read somewhere that this is possible, though doing so usually kills the casters, which is why is not done very often. 9th level casters are fairly rare, so you wouldn't want to waste their lives on something trivial.
Which is why I said "several 9th level casters working together".
It's like a loophole that allows mortals to use epic magic, if I am remembering it correctly, even now when you technically can't get above 9th level. I am calling upon half remembered information though, so if I am just flat out incorrect that I will accept that.
Even if I am wrong though my opinion about Wish bring the most powerful and creative mortal spell still stands, as I really can't think of any other spell that is so wide ranging and far reaching.
At least not ones that a mortal can use.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
For "worst" 9th level spell, I would probably say Time Stop. Dont get me wrong, I really like the flavor of it and I understand why it has to be the way that it is. But given that it restricts you from dealing any damage and restricts you from moving a certain distance, I feel like the few turns of setup that you get dont really make it powerful enough to merit it being a 9th level spell.
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I have a house rule for Time Stop, that says; when you cast it, it freezes time for everybody but the caster (standard) but then you can continue o attack or take any actions as normal if you continue to attack, the damage builds up and the target of your attacks suffers all the built up damage as soon as time resumes.
So the Wizard/Sorcerer can cast time stop and lay into the biggest creature in the battle, dealing damage that accumulates. Then, when time resumes that creature takes a large amount of damage right off the bat, without any way of avoiding it.
This usually reduces the creatures HP by half, and expends the casters 9th level slot.
None of this RAW or even RAI, instead it's my specific house rule that makes Time Stop much more useful. It also allows me to pit the characters against far more powerful enemies, and helps make those high level battles feel truly epic and earth shaking, because I can bring out the big guns that bit sooner.
It also makes the players who have stuck with a caster class long enough to get Time Stop, feel like their choices were worth it, because despite being squishy, they now weild one of the most powerful spells in the game - making them a force to be reconed with.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I haven't seen that in the rules anywhere that I've read. I mean, it's a pretty common idea in movies / novels / video games as a story element, but I've never seen rules allowing the PCs to attempt it.
I have actually been looking myself as well and can't find it either. Maybe I am mistaking this as being a d&d thing, when it's actually from another game or something.
Either that or its in some lore that is so obscure, it isn't easily found on Google lol.
I thought I had come across this while doing a deep dive on lore, a while ago but now can't find it again, so I will just take it as if I was incorrect until I actually come across the specific bit of lore that supports it.
Shame we can't get the guys who created the lore and stuff to come do a talk on here about all the obscure little titbits of lore and the things that people always get wrong.
I think that would be awesome.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I think what you are thinking of is part of the expanded lore (novels and games, etc), but not part of the official rules. Aka "NPC magic."
I remember hearing it from a d&d lore youtube video.
??? Sorcerers are naturally attuned to magic so why wouldn't it be their thing as well?
They really should beef up the number of spells for imo 7th - 9th in general. Picking and originality get slim and everything seem so generic at 9th.
I'd actually like to see Wish heavily modified to take a lot more time and cost to cast. There is no reason to take any other 9th level spell with the way Wish is atm.
Wizards get to this point through careful and thorough study of magic and its inner working.
Sorcerers get to this point by winging and shouting YOLO as stuff happens.
Their spontaneous understanding lets them tweak the spells they cast in small ways, but a wizard's dedication gives him access to a wider spell list.
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