I've been thinking about another form of multiclassing.... That of taking levels in the same class, but different paths. For example, a Way of the Shadow monk spends time in another monastery and learns the Way of the Open Hand. A druid broadening their understanding of nature to be both Circle of the Moon and Circle of the Shepard. In my current campaign I play a Transmutation Wizard, but there are towers in the city devoted to the different schools. My character may develop an interest to study at the tower devoted to Conjuration.
It seems logical that the new paths could be multiclassed, using the general multiclass rules... starting at level one in the new class to lay the ground work for the new path and advancing as normal. D&D Beyond of course hasn't explored this so multiclassing in the same class isn't an option. What would be some suggestions to go about this?
It's not allowed by RAW, but would be simple enough to implement. I'd recommend not allowing features to stack progress (e.g., a Rogue 3/Rogue 3 has the Sneak Attack of a Rogue 3, not a Rogue 6; a Fighter 3/Fighter 3 only has one Action Surge not two), but other than that it should be straightforward.
Multiclassing same-class spellcasters should follow the multiclass rules for slots: A Wizard 3/Wizard 3 would be a 6th-level equivalent for multiclass slot calculation, but only be able to know/write spells as a Wizard 3.
I can imagine a few hyper-specialized builds that this would help, but it's not likely to be unbalanced. I mean... you could stack a few different types of Ranger to get access to more types of Bonus Action damage, but they're largely going to compete for action economy, and be balanced by slowed progression? I don't see a problem.
Yes RAW, because it's never been approached before, but I see it as subclass alters the class. Yes, there are shared similarities in the base class, but once the subclass is added it becomes it's own. An Eldritch Knight and a Battlemaster are both fighters, but side by side they are totally different. Of course it will have to be homebrew. The way they work in terms of class level is why I thought of going the multiclass route. My thoughts are two wizard multiclass levels, for example, each subclass progresses as the class levels it's attached to... Level 6 conjurer + Level 3 Necromancer would have level 6 and level 3 subclass abilities respectively, while Spellcasting and the rest would be the total wizard level (as per the regular multiclassing rules). Likewise in this example the similar wizard traits wouldn't stack (no extra arcane recovery).
I think if you let the Wizard 6/Wizard 3 know spells as a 9th level wizard (5th level spells unlocked) instead of a 6th level (3rd level spells unlocked, but multiclass spell slots up to 5th level), then you're going to make Wizard/Wizard/Wizards (or other Caster/Caster/etcs) a little overpowered.
yah I can totally respect that. If memory serves, how the multiclass Spellcasting work it'd be 9th level for determining number of slots. The highest individual class level would determine the highest level spell known.
We homebrewed a Feature Savant feat a while back that lets you pick one feature of level 9 or lower from another subclass of your same class with the caveat that the feature didn't scale. Upon review, assassinate and bear totem were the most popular.
I think if you let the Wizard 6/Wizard 3 know spells as a 9th level wizard (5th level spells unlocked) instead of a 6th level (3rd level spells unlocked, but multiclass spell slots up to 5th level), then you're going to make Wizard/Wizard/Wizards (or other Caster/Caster/etcs) a little overpowered.
Hit the nail right on the head. The problem with any attempt to multi-sub-class is the exact same problem as regular multi-classing. Both base classes and their respective subclasses tend to front-load the features which will define how the (sub)class plays, and that's the reason you see most MC builds as only taking 1-5 levels of a secondary class... get the important features, and then get out.
The other end of the scale here is balanced by the fact that you are giving up the potential of high-level features. Casters that dip outside of their class for more than 3 levels permanently give up the ability to learn 9th level spells. They can have 9th level slots, but those can only be used to up-cast their known spells at that point.
If it were possible to have various levels of multiple Cleric Domains, you'd see a ton of 17/1/1/1 builds. If it were possible to do this, while also rolling all those Cleric levels in the same progression, you'd see almost every Cleric with an individual Domain level no higher than 8. There's just far too much stuff crammed into early caster levels to ever allow multiple subclasses without completely throwing the core of 5e balancing out the window.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, say for example you wanted two Wizard subclasses. For the sake of the example, you want to take the 1st subclass to 6th, and then the second one to 3rd in that order. Okay,
This seems to me like a really interesting idea for a Class of its own. Something that could multiclass within itself. Obviously would require more thought then just a "That sounds cool" post on a forum, but perhaps it is worth me looking into...
While you cannot multi class into the same class, Tasha’s codifies a house rule that many DMs use for changing one’s subclass.
“Each character class involves the choice of a subclass at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level. A subclass represents different areas of specialization and offers class features as you level up. With your DM’s approval, you can change your subclass when you would normally gain a new subclass feature. If you decide to make the change, choose another subclass that belongs to your class and replace all of your old subclass features with the features of the new subclass that are for your new level and lower.”
I really don’t see it as all that OP vs players who take 1-2 levels to get “the good stuff” front loaded into so many 5e classes. How many Hexblade1/add your choice characters are out there?
It would allow players to create more personalized characters and to realize them more fully if they are an assassin/mastermind or what have you.
I want to make a Divination Bladesinger or War mage but can’t under the current system.
would it require work to try and balance? Of course. But so does allowing multiclassing in the first place.
But it is still certainly against RAW. It could be worked out as a homebrew option, but the multiclass rules definitely expect different classes.
But anyway, beyond that i think the issue here that is expressed by people who wish to multiclass into the same class is an issue that I feel too: there isn’t really enough customization within classes or subclasses. Once you choose your subclass, that might be the last choice you get to make. Most classes don’t give any customization beyond subclass (and spell selection), and many subclasses don’t give many choices either. Sometimes, even when you do get a choice, it is the choice between the good one and the bad one.
How would you do a Warlock/warlock/warlock/warlock build? Do they all get their level 1 pact features? Additional spells to choose from? If it was a 2/1/1/1 build would it be a 5th level warlock caster? Or at 3/3/3/3 you now have 4 pact boons?
Seems a little much.
And I think they don’t allow it as your class level and character level are separate. If you are a 10 level character and have levels of fighter of 3 Rune knight/3 Battlemaster/4 Echo Knight would you not be a 10th level fighter?
It’s like graduating high school and instead of going to college or university you start you go back to 1st grade and try to squeeze into that tiny desk and chair made for a child.
Why would it work so differently than a multi class? If I am a lvl3 wizard/lvl 2 fighter, my character level is 5 but my skills and class features are only wizard 3 and fighter 2. When you multi class spell caster classes, multi classing limits your spell slots, doesn’t it? So multiclassing within the same class would not stack the same features, so no double Arcane Recovery, no stacking of pact boons, and so on. What it would do is grant access to features and allow options for those boons, for example, in the same way multiclassing gives access to spells available to learn - more options to choose from, not simply saying “here, take all of them!” You still need to pick, but from an expanded list.
Multiclassing already recognizes that certain combinations need to limit features gained. Multi-subclassing would need the same. What those limits are would need to be worked out more formally.
How I personally would handle something like this would be:
You may choose to multiclass into the same class when you would normally gain a level. If you choose to multiclass in this way, you may not multiclass into other classes; likewise, if you have levels in two or more different classes you cannot choose to multiclass in an identical class. (Prevents The X/Y/Z/Etc. situations)
You do not gain the base class features of your copied class - at the appropriate level, you may choose a subclass and begin receiving subclass features at the appropriate levels.
Your total spellcasting ability, spells known, and spell slots are determined by your highest individual level in either class - a Circle of Dreams 4/Circle of the Moon 3 Druid multiclass would determine their spell slots and maximum spell level of prepared spells as a 4th-level druid, not a 7th.
You would determine proficiency and Hit Points as a traditional multiclass - using total combined level (the above example, 7th level for 7d8 Hit Die total).
An argument could be made to allow spell slots to be calculated as combined level -- so you may have 7th-level druid spell slots, but you can only cast and memorize as a 4th level, using the above example.
I would agree that since both of the multi-(sub)classes taken are the same main class, character advancement would continue as if they were only one class. But just track subclass features as if they were entirely separate classes. So an 11th level Artificier could be an Artillerist 9/Armorer 2. Their HP/class features/spell slots would be at 11th level, but their Artillerist subclass features would stop at 9th level, and their Armorer subclass features would stop at 2nd level (so they wouldn't have any until they hit 12th level).
I think if you let the Wizard 6/Wizard 3 know spells as a 9th level wizard (5th level spells unlocked) instead of a 6th level (3rd level spells unlocked, but multiclass spell slots up to 5th level), then you're going to make Wizard/Wizard/Wizards (or other Caster/Caster/etcs) a little overpowered.
The low level abilities of wizard sub classes vary wildly in power from minor alchemy to awakened spell book. I imagine one of the main dips would be scribe for the ability to change elements for free, time reduction to spell copying and instant ritual daily.
I don't think it would break the game but it might create a new meta like that.
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I've been thinking about another form of multiclassing.... That of taking levels in the same class, but different paths. For example, a Way of the Shadow monk spends time in another monastery and learns the Way of the Open Hand. A druid broadening their understanding of nature to be both Circle of the Moon and Circle of the Shepard. In my current campaign I play a Transmutation Wizard, but there are towers in the city devoted to the different schools. My character may develop an interest to study at the tower devoted to Conjuration.
It seems logical that the new paths could be multiclassed, using the general multiclass rules... starting at level one in the new class to lay the ground work for the new path and advancing as normal. D&D Beyond of course hasn't explored this so multiclassing in the same class isn't an option. What would be some suggestions to go about this?
It's not allowed by RAW, but would be simple enough to implement. I'd recommend not allowing features to stack progress (e.g., a Rogue 3/Rogue 3 has the Sneak Attack of a Rogue 3, not a Rogue 6; a Fighter 3/Fighter 3 only has one Action Surge not two), but other than that it should be straightforward.
Multiclassing same-class spellcasters should follow the multiclass rules for slots: A Wizard 3/Wizard 3 would be a 6th-level equivalent for multiclass slot calculation, but only be able to know/write spells as a Wizard 3.
I can imagine a few hyper-specialized builds that this would help, but it's not likely to be unbalanced. I mean... you could stack a few different types of Ranger to get access to more types of Bonus Action damage, but they're largely going to compete for action economy, and be balanced by slowed progression? I don't see a problem.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes RAW, because it's never been approached before, but I see it as subclass alters the class. Yes, there are shared similarities in the base class, but once the subclass is added it becomes it's own. An Eldritch Knight and a Battlemaster are both fighters, but side by side they are totally different. Of course it will have to be homebrew. The way they work in terms of class level is why I thought of going the multiclass route. My thoughts are two wizard multiclass levels, for example, each subclass progresses as the class levels it's attached to... Level 6 conjurer + Level 3 Necromancer would have level 6 and level 3 subclass abilities respectively, while Spellcasting and the rest would be the total wizard level (as per the regular multiclassing rules). Likewise in this example the similar wizard traits wouldn't stack (no extra arcane recovery).
I think if you let the Wizard 6/Wizard 3 know spells as a 9th level wizard (5th level spells unlocked) instead of a 6th level (3rd level spells unlocked, but multiclass spell slots up to 5th level), then you're going to make Wizard/Wizard/Wizards (or other Caster/Caster/etcs) a little overpowered.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
yah I can totally respect that. If memory serves, how the multiclass Spellcasting work it'd be 9th level for determining number of slots. The highest individual class level would determine the highest level spell known.
By the book, no can do.
We homebrewed a Feature Savant feat a while back that lets you pick one feature of level 9 or lower from another subclass of your same class with the caveat that the feature didn't scale. Upon review, assassinate and bear totem were the most popular.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Hit the nail right on the head. The problem with any attempt to multi-sub-class is the exact same problem as regular multi-classing. Both base classes and their respective subclasses tend to front-load the features which will define how the (sub)class plays, and that's the reason you see most MC builds as only taking 1-5 levels of a secondary class... get the important features, and then get out.
The other end of the scale here is balanced by the fact that you are giving up the potential of high-level features. Casters that dip outside of their class for more than 3 levels permanently give up the ability to learn 9th level spells. They can have 9th level slots, but those can only be used to up-cast their known spells at that point.
If it were possible to have various levels of multiple Cleric Domains, you'd see a ton of 17/1/1/1 builds. If it were possible to do this, while also rolling all those Cleric levels in the same progression, you'd see almost every Cleric with an individual Domain level no higher than 8. There's just far too much stuff crammed into early caster levels to ever allow multiple subclasses without completely throwing the core of 5e balancing out the window.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, say for example you wanted two Wizard subclasses. For the sake of the example, you want to take the 1st subclass to 6th, and then the second one to 3rd in that order. Okay,
And then:
You wouldn’t get Arcane Recovery *2. So that would mean three entire levels to get one (maybe 2) feature(s).
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This seems to me like a really interesting idea for a Class of its own. Something that could multiclass within itself. Obviously would require more thought then just a "That sounds cool" post on a forum, but perhaps it is worth me looking into...
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
While you cannot multi class into the same class, Tasha’s codifies a house rule that many DMs use for changing one’s subclass.
“Each character class involves the choice of a subclass at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level. A subclass represents different areas of specialization and offers class features as you level up. With your DM’s approval, you can change your subclass when you would normally gain a new subclass feature. If you decide to make the change, choose another subclass that belongs to your class and replace all of your old subclass features with the features of the new subclass that are for your new level and lower.”
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I really don’t see it as all that OP vs players who take 1-2 levels to get “the good stuff” front loaded into so many 5e classes. How many Hexblade1/add your choice characters are out there?
It would allow players to create more personalized characters and to realize them more fully if they are an assassin/mastermind or what have you.
I want to make a Divination Bladesinger or War mage but can’t under the current system.
would it require work to try and balance? Of course. But so does allowing multiclassing in the first place.
But it is still certainly against RAW. It could be worked out as a homebrew option, but the multiclass rules definitely expect different classes.
But anyway, beyond that i think the issue here that is expressed by people who wish to multiclass into the same class is an issue that I feel too: there isn’t really enough customization within classes or subclasses. Once you choose your subclass, that might be the last choice you get to make. Most classes don’t give any customization beyond subclass (and spell selection), and many subclasses don’t give many choices either. Sometimes, even when you do get a choice, it is the choice between the good one and the bad one.
How would you do a Warlock/warlock/warlock/warlock build? Do they all get their level 1 pact features? Additional spells to choose from? If it was a 2/1/1/1 build would it be a 5th level warlock caster? Or at 3/3/3/3 you now have 4 pact boons?
Seems a little much.
And I think they don’t allow it as your class level and character level are separate. If you are a 10 level character and have levels of fighter of 3 Rune knight/3 Battlemaster/4 Echo Knight would you not be a 10th level fighter?
It’s like graduating high school and instead of going to college or university you start you go back to 1st grade and try to squeeze into that tiny desk and chair made for a child.
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Why would it work so differently than a multi class? If I am a lvl3 wizard/lvl 2 fighter, my character level is 5 but my skills and class features are only wizard 3 and fighter 2. When you multi class spell caster classes, multi classing limits your spell slots, doesn’t it? So multiclassing within the same class would not stack the same features, so no double Arcane Recovery, no stacking of pact boons, and so on. What it would do is grant access to features and allow options for those boons, for example, in the same way multiclassing gives access to spells available to learn - more options to choose from, not simply saying “here, take all of them!” You still need to pick, but from an expanded list.
Multiclassing already recognizes that certain combinations need to limit features gained. Multi-subclassing would need the same. What those limits are would need to be worked out more formally.
How I personally would handle something like this would be:
An argument could be made to allow spell slots to be calculated as combined level -- so you may have 7th-level druid spell slots, but you can only cast and memorize as a 4th level, using the above example.
I would agree that since both of the multi-(sub)classes taken are the same main class, character advancement would continue as if they were only one class. But just track subclass features as if they were entirely separate classes. So an 11th level Artificier could be an Artillerist 9/Armorer 2. Their HP/class features/spell slots would be at 11th level, but their Artillerist subclass features would stop at 9th level, and their Armorer subclass features would stop at 2nd level (so they wouldn't have any until they hit 12th level).
The low level abilities of wizard sub classes vary wildly in power from minor alchemy to awakened spell book. I imagine one of the main dips would be scribe for the ability to change elements for free, time reduction to spell copying and instant ritual daily.
I don't think it would break the game but it might create a new meta like that.