I'm not sure these are as necessary as you might think. Let investigation act as your interpretation of "deduction" as it already uses the terms deduce within its definition.
"When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check."
While the first part is externally dealing with clues, the other part about poring through scrolls is more of an internal deduction.
Broad knowledge is still used for intelligence, specific knowledge is your arcana (magic), and history (campaign world). So I'm not sure Memory is needed either.
If your issue is why people have INT as a dump stat, then I disagree that your suggestions would fix the behavior (assuming its worth "fixing"). A rewrite of the character sheet/rules so it doesn't link a single attribute to each skill might influence the behavior more. If I recall the DMG also suggests allowing skills to use a different attribute instead, but you should tell the players before character creation that this could happen so they can make informed decisions.
investigation can include deduction. Of course gathering data is the first step: Holmes responds: “I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” But processing the data is important too. If you’ve been treating Investigation and Perception as interchangeable, stop. Perception is just the big picture view; it’s more of a reflex. Investigation is a methodical process.
Memory/Recall is what Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion are for. If you don’t have a better place to put a fact or bit of trivia, it can go in History.
For example, if you arranged information about creatures as follows:
As you can see, History doesn’t cover a lot of creature types, but it can cover many fields of study that don’t fit elsewhere.
You can also increase the value of Intelligence by realizing that Crafting tools should be keyed to it. If you’re producing art which doesn’t have a defined ‘correct’ form, you could use Charisma since it’s self-expression, but technology is discovered and applied information.
"There might yet be a heaven, but it isn't going to be 'perfect', and we're going to have to build it ourselves." - Philhellenes, Science Saved My Soul
I know that's not necessarily how it's meant to be used, but I've used History checks to represent personal Memory, rather than just to represent whether that character has knowledge about the world. I've even had players lose track of something in their notes and outright ask if they can make a history check to have me give them some information they know they learned at some point, but just don't remember all the specifics.
I like the idea of using Investigation to include putting together existing information. I think the tricky thing is that, in many games... taking all the information presented and putting it together to solve a problem is often part of the intended challenge of a game. So having it resolved with a die roll can often defeat the point of even presenting evidence and a mystery in the first place. Not that I think it's a bad idea... I think it would be useful for deducing elements of a mystery, a DM just has to be careful about what they'd be willing to reveal with that roll.
Same, though I also tend to prefer letting players propose the check they want to make, depending on circumstances.
For example there may be magical cases where Arcana is a good fit, or Medicine for wounds etc.
Obviously you'll need to veto the more ridiculous suggestions, but I think it's a good way to get players using more of their skills more often, especially if you require proficiency for some checks (to stop the Barbarian whose backstory is that he literally knows nothing about magic rolling a 20 on an Arcana check and making the magical lore expert Wizard wonder why they bothered turning up). By being a bit fuzzy with skills it allows players to say "well I don't have Arcana, but I do know [this] and think it's reasonable to roll because [that], or I could use it to Help?"
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I know that's not necessarily how it's meant to be used, but I've used History checks to represent personal Memory, rather than just to represent whether that character has knowledge about the world. I've even had players lose track of something in their notes and outright ask if they can make a history check to have me give them some information they know they learned at some point, but just don't remember all the specifics.
I like the idea of using Investigation to include putting together existing information. I think the tricky thing is that, in many games... taking all the information presented and putting it together to solve a problem is often part of the intended challenge of a game. So having it resolved with a die roll can often defeat the point of even presenting evidence and a mystery in the first place. Not that I think it's a bad idea... I think it would be useful for deducing elements of a mystery, a DM just has to be careful about what they'd be willing to reveal with that roll.
Please don't make players roll History checks to remind them of something they forgot out-of-game.
I know that's not necessarily how it's meant to be used, but I've used History checks to represent personal Memory, rather than just to represent whether that character has knowledge about the world. I've even had players lose track of something in their notes and outright ask if they can make a history check to have me give them some information they know they learned at some point, but just don't remember all the specifics.
I like the idea of using Investigation to include putting together existing information. I think the tricky thing is that, in many games... taking all the information presented and putting it together to solve a problem is often part of the intended challenge of a game. So having it resolved with a die roll can often defeat the point of even presenting evidence and a mystery in the first place. Not that I think it's a bad idea... I think it would be useful for deducing elements of a mystery, a DM just has to be careful about what they'd be willing to reveal with that roll.
Please don't make players roll History checks to remind them of something they forgot out-of-game.
I usually don't... if I know it's something the player would remember if they just dug through their notes for a bit I usually just give it to them. But there are some moments where the tension or challenge is improved by making it a roll, and like I said... usually it's actually the players themselves who ask if they can just make a history check.
I know that's not necessarily how it's meant to be used, but I've used History checks to represent personal Memory, rather than just to represent whether that character has knowledge about the world. I've even had players lose track of something in their notes and outright ask if they can make a history check to have me give them some information they know they learned at some point, but just don't remember all the specifics.
I like the idea of using Investigation to include putting together existing information. I think the tricky thing is that, in many games... taking all the information presented and putting it together to solve a problem is often part of the intended challenge of a game. So having it resolved with a die roll can often defeat the point of even presenting evidence and a mystery in the first place. Not that I think it's a bad idea... I think it would be useful for deducing elements of a mystery, a DM just has to be careful about what they'd be willing to reveal with that roll.
Please don't make players roll History checks to remind them of something they forgot out-of-game.
I usually don't... if I know it's something the player would remember if they just dug through their notes for a bit I usually just give it to them. But there are some moments where the tension or challenge is improved by making it a roll, and like I said... usually it's actually the players themselves who ask if they can just make a history check.
That's fair. I'd advise players to avoid asking the DM if they can roll a check, and to instead explain what it is they're doing in-game, but if this works for your group then whatever
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I’ve seen people complaining about how Intelligence is kind of pointless if you are not a caster.
Additionally, I’ve seen a lot of times people doing plain Intelligence checks because of the lack of ability checks for that situation.
That is why I think it would be cool to add the Deduction and Memory ability checks.
Deduction would be like an Insight but on the situation, not on creatures. Example:
”Does my character deduces it is a good idea?”
”Can my character know where this npc is going based on the information he has?”
”Can my character realize something to solve problems this puzzle” etc.
Memory is plain and simple. It’s Arcana, but for trivial and specific information about the campaign:
”Does my character remembers the way back?”
“Does my character remembers what this npc said that time?”
I think it would make Intelligence as good as Wisdom and also male these checks more official.
What do you guys think?
Also it would add more insertion cuz your character can remember or deduce stuff you can’t, separating more your persona from the character’s.
I'm not sure these are as necessary as you might think. Let investigation act as your interpretation of "deduction" as it already uses the terms deduce within its definition.
Investigation
"When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check."
While the first part is externally dealing with clues, the other part about poring through scrolls is more of an internal deduction.
Broad knowledge is still used for intelligence, specific knowledge is your arcana (magic), and history (campaign world). So I'm not sure Memory is needed either.
If your issue is why people have INT as a dump stat, then I disagree that your suggestions would fix the behavior (assuming its worth "fixing"). A rewrite of the character sheet/rules so it doesn't link a single attribute to each skill might influence the behavior more. If I recall the DMG also suggests allowing skills to use a different attribute instead, but you should tell the players before character creation that this could happen so they can make informed decisions.
investigation can include deduction. Of course gathering data is the first step:
Holmes responds: “I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
But processing the data is important too. If you’ve been treating Investigation and Perception as interchangeable, stop. Perception is just the big picture view; it’s more of a reflex. Investigation is a methodical process.
Memory/Recall is what Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion are for. If you don’t have a better place to put a fact or bit of trivia, it can go in History.
For example, if you arranged information about creatures as follows:
Monster Lore
Arcana: Construct, Dragon, Elemental, Fey
History: Humanoid, Giant
Nature: Beast, Ooze, Plant, Monstrosity
Religion: Aberration, Celestial, Fiend, Undead
As you can see, History doesn’t cover a lot of creature types, but it can cover many fields of study that don’t fit elsewhere.
You can also increase the value of Intelligence by realizing that Crafting tools should be keyed to it. If you’re producing art which doesn’t have a defined ‘correct’ form, you could use Charisma since it’s self-expression, but technology is discovered and applied information.
"There might yet be a heaven, but it isn't going to be 'perfect', and we're going to have to build it ourselves." - Philhellenes, Science Saved My Soul
Backgrounds • Feats • Magic Items • Monsters •
Ancestries• Spells •SubclassesI know that's not necessarily how it's meant to be used, but I've used History checks to represent personal Memory, rather than just to represent whether that character has knowledge about the world. I've even had players lose track of something in their notes and outright ask if they can make a history check to have me give them some information they know they learned at some point, but just don't remember all the specifics.
I like the idea of using Investigation to include putting together existing information. I think the tricky thing is that, in many games... taking all the information presented and putting it together to solve a problem is often part of the intended challenge of a game. So having it resolved with a die roll can often defeat the point of even presenting evidence and a mystery in the first place. Not that I think it's a bad idea... I think it would be useful for deducing elements of a mystery, a DM just has to be careful about what they'd be willing to reveal with that roll.
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Yeah, I’m with TransmorpherDDS, I use Investigation and History for those.
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Same, though I also tend to prefer letting players propose the check they want to make, depending on circumstances.
For example there may be magical cases where Arcana is a good fit, or Medicine for wounds etc.
Obviously you'll need to veto the more ridiculous suggestions, but I think it's a good way to get players using more of their skills more often, especially if you require proficiency for some checks (to stop the Barbarian whose backstory is that he literally knows nothing about magic rolling a 20 on an Arcana check and making the magical lore expert Wizard wonder why they bothered turning up). By being a bit fuzzy with skills it allows players to say "well I don't have Arcana, but I do know [this] and think it's reasonable to roll because [that], or I could use it to Help?"
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Please don't make players roll History checks to remind them of something they forgot out-of-game.
[REDACTED]
I usually don't... if I know it's something the player would remember if they just dug through their notes for a bit I usually just give it to them. But there are some moments where the tension or challenge is improved by making it a roll, and like I said... usually it's actually the players themselves who ask if they can just make a history check.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
That's fair. I'd advise players to avoid asking the DM if they can roll a check, and to instead explain what it is they're doing in-game, but if this works for your group then whatever
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