I'm working on some tools that I can use to steamline my job as a DM. I have a spreadsheet for generating random adventures using all the tables from the DMG. I have another one for generating random NPCs and Villains, again using the tables from the DMG. I'm working on a spreadsheet that will allow you to custom build a creature with all the calculations done for you and customize almost every aspect of it. I'm working on a random encounter spreadsheet to handle social, combat, and environment/location encounters for those long treks across the map or whenever. These projects are my way of keeping busy when I'm not in the mood to do real adulting. However, I've found myself asking a question that I'd like some input on and it deals with CR calculation for encounters and high level and/or large groups:
What information is missing from the CR calculations to help mitigate the apparent dramatic drop in challenge at higher levels or with larger groups? Many of us have found that CR is a good baseline for combat generation but it starts to fall short after a while. We've learned to add strategy, environment and other factors into a combat to make it more challenging to our players. We've got a few buttons and levers we can play with to make a creature more durable or hit harder. The goal here is to give a tool for both the novice and experienced DM that can help calculate a combat encounter much closer to the capabilities of the party they're working with. So, again, what do you feel is missing from a CR calculator that would make the end result more accurate?
What's missing in my DMing experience are two things: Magic items, and teamwork.
Magic items used as intended or in vastly more creative ways simply can't be taken into consideration by a One-Size-Fits-All builder. Even within rarity levels there's a massive disparity between power levels. And then it comes down to your players. In one game I play, the Rogue never uses their magic items that isn't a flat + to something. If the DM took those items into account, despite the player never using it, we might have a much more difficult CR than he might intend. But what about when the Rogue finally remembers to use it? Everything changes again.
Teamwork also changes things. Each class/subclass might be balanced in a vacuum, but the combination of powers has been balanced less so. Having a team that works well together, and that notice how their abilities could help each other is a blessing as a DM, but it also changes the effect of CR-- So can't be a one-size fits all.
What's missing in my DMing experience are two things: Magic items, and teamwork.
[...]So can't be a one-size fits all.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree; there is no "one size fits all" solution. What I'm looking for, instead, is something that gets closer to helping make combat encounters achieve the difficulty that is more appropriate for your group.
If a group has nothing but Melee, then tossing a ton of Casters at them is going to be significantly more difficult than a sword swinging contest. When you have a Healer you change the scope of how much damage can be handled by the group, how do you handle that in regards to difficulty? What about a party that focuses on conditions such as Prone and Grapple, there's no damage involved in those actions but it seriously changes the tone of the fight. How do you take that into account for an Encounter generator?
I'm just wondering what other things might be added to that list as well as ideas on how to implement these things into a tool. I may be a fish wanting to fly, but I also like a good challenge :)
I guess with party roles you could have an assignment for "Healer", "Partial Healer", "Caster", "Partial Caster", "Tank", "Ranged", and "Melee" and assign them per character. You would then have to assign varying CR to each monster, and then have it average the result.
So for example lets say you have 1 full caster, 1 ranged, 1 tank, and 1 melee-- then you have "modifiers" for "How many healers? // How many partial healers?" to further change it.. Let's say this group has 2 partial casters, and a partial caster is worth -(0.5). Then the monster is CR6 (Caster), CR4 (Ranged), CR4 (Tank), CR7 (Melee) and you average it, then subtract the healers for a group CR of 4.75, rounded to 5.
You could do similar with magic items, assigning 'modifiers' to monsters based on certain classes of items. Eg. "Magical damage", various damage types, speed types (eg. flying), but again this requires a lot of effort on the outset to assign these values to monsters. How much is this monster modified by values x, y and z?
So it is possible, but it's quite an undertaking.
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I'm working on some tools that I can use to steamline my job as a DM. I have a spreadsheet for generating random adventures using all the tables from the DMG. I have another one for generating random NPCs and Villains, again using the tables from the DMG. I'm working on a spreadsheet that will allow you to custom build a creature with all the calculations done for you and customize almost every aspect of it. I'm working on a random encounter spreadsheet to handle social, combat, and environment/location encounters for those long treks across the map or whenever. These projects are my way of keeping busy when I'm not in the mood to do real adulting. However, I've found myself asking a question that I'd like some input on and it deals with CR calculation for encounters and high level and/or large groups:
What information is missing from the CR calculations to help mitigate the apparent dramatic drop in challenge at higher levels or with larger groups? Many of us have found that CR is a good baseline for combat generation but it starts to fall short after a while. We've learned to add strategy, environment and other factors into a combat to make it more challenging to our players. We've got a few buttons and levers we can play with to make a creature more durable or hit harder. The goal here is to give a tool for both the novice and experienced DM that can help calculate a combat encounter much closer to the capabilities of the party they're working with. So, again, what do you feel is missing from a CR calculator that would make the end result more accurate?
What's missing in my DMing experience are two things: Magic items, and teamwork.
Magic items used as intended or in vastly more creative ways simply can't be taken into consideration by a One-Size-Fits-All builder. Even within rarity levels there's a massive disparity between power levels. And then it comes down to your players. In one game I play, the Rogue never uses their magic items that isn't a flat + to something. If the DM took those items into account, despite the player never using it, we might have a much more difficult CR than he might intend. But what about when the Rogue finally remembers to use it? Everything changes again.
Teamwork also changes things. Each class/subclass might be balanced in a vacuum, but the combination of powers has been balanced less so. Having a team that works well together, and that notice how their abilities could help each other is a blessing as a DM, but it also changes the effect of CR-- So can't be a one-size fits all.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree; there is no "one size fits all" solution. What I'm looking for, instead, is something that gets closer to helping make combat encounters achieve the difficulty that is more appropriate for your group.
If a group has nothing but Melee, then tossing a ton of Casters at them is going to be significantly more difficult than a sword swinging contest. When you have a Healer you change the scope of how much damage can be handled by the group, how do you handle that in regards to difficulty? What about a party that focuses on conditions such as Prone and Grapple, there's no damage involved in those actions but it seriously changes the tone of the fight. How do you take that into account for an Encounter generator?
I'm just wondering what other things might be added to that list as well as ideas on how to implement these things into a tool. I may be a fish wanting to fly, but I also like a good challenge :)
I guess with party roles you could have an assignment for "Healer", "Partial Healer", "Caster", "Partial Caster", "Tank", "Ranged", and "Melee" and assign them per character. You would then have to assign varying CR to each monster, and then have it average the result.
So for example lets say you have 1 full caster, 1 ranged, 1 tank, and 1 melee-- then you have "modifiers" for "How many healers? // How many partial healers?" to further change it.. Let's say this group has 2 partial casters, and a partial caster is worth -(0.5). Then the monster is CR6 (Caster), CR4 (Ranged), CR4 (Tank), CR7 (Melee) and you average it, then subtract the healers for a group CR of 4.75, rounded to 5.
You could do similar with magic items, assigning 'modifiers' to monsters based on certain classes of items. Eg. "Magical damage", various damage types, speed types (eg. flying), but again this requires a lot of effort on the outset to assign these values to monsters. How much is this monster modified by values x, y and z?
So it is possible, but it's quite an undertaking.