Creating a muscle niche. Want to create a rogue who can fight toe to toe rather than moving a lot. A Tough that is part of a heist team.
Considering adding the ability to use other weapons for sneak attack. Perhaps simple weapons? It’s not hard to imagine this type of character with a big club or mace. And/or racial weapons? (I.e. Elf using Longsword, Dwarf using a war hammer, bugbear wielding a morning star, drow with a whip)
tough might be too powerful but I’d like the hero to go toe to toe without big armor/shield.
Think Robin Hood’s Little John, or Dual hatchet wielding Jean Tannen of the Gendleman Bastards, or the 4e Nightsong Enforcer.
First run at the Stealth Enforcer
Scrapper
As a cunning action when you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Beginning at 9th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Iron Jaw
By 13th level, you have learned to withstand hefty blows and stay upright. You have advantage on saving throws against being paralyzed, knocked prone, or stunned.
Brutal Strike
At level 17, when you damage a creature in melee combat the damage dice you roll that come up 1’s count as 2’s instead.
cut scrapper and the bonus tough feat. Instead give them access to a short list of fighting styles. At 3rd level fighting style and 1st level give them 1 bonus hp per class level.
Giving them tough for no investment gives them more hp than a fighter. Cutting that in half puts them on par with a fighter. Extra attack may be too much considering they have sneak attack. Give them a conditional extra attack where if you meet condition x then you can take another attack as a bonus action.
something like if you miss with an attack that had advantage you may use your bonus action to make another attack. Giving rogues an extra attack is fine but it needs to use their bonus action in order to keep it in balance.
I agree that giving them the Tough feat for free is not a good idea. Especially at 3rd level as that's before anyone would normally get an ASI/Feat normally so it's quite a jump in power.
I like the suggestion from 1stsonofkrynn about +1 to HP. It's simple, neat, and as commented brings them to par with a Fighter.
A comparable idea around the theme of being more durable could be proficiency in Con saves (like Gloomstalker gives Rangers prof in Wis saves at 7) but that should be later than 3rd level. It could potentially fit in nicely at 9 to reflect how the Rogue has learned to roll with the punches, etc, but that starts overlapping a lot with the Iron Jaw feature which gives advantage.
Alternatively, an unarmoured AC of 10 + Dex + Con (like Barbarians) could be an option, but I'd be hesitant to go down that route. I know you said you didn't want them to use shields, but giving prof in Shields may work as it would allow them a bit more durability at the sacrifice of an off-hand attack if that's the route they wanted to take. That could then tie into...
Making "Scrapper" give the player the option of a Fighting Style works quite nicely and was my initial reaction for it. You leave them open to taking an option which suits how they want to play the character, rather than forcing them down a particular route.
Stealth teammate doesn't feel like it fits as well thematically when it's all those things. If they want to distract someone then they should already have the tools at their disposal to do so, but just giving characters advantage when they can see the Rogue feels off.
Extending sneak attack to include simple weapons which lack certain properties (probably Heavy and Two-handed for balance) would probably work alright as you'd be capped at d8 for damage die and they already have proficiency with a rapier which does the same level of damage.
I like the idea of the conditional extra attack which uses their bonus action, however this doesn't benefit a Rogue if they wanted to go the two-weapon fighting route. It would need something comparable for those who use two weapons to feel a benefit at this stage.
scrapper was supposed to be a nerfed Two weapon fighting as it burned your cunning action. But I agree that the fighting style is simpler and opens a few more options.
I like the fighting style. Which ones would you open up to? Dueling, Defense and Two weapon make sense.
I’m concerned that adding Shield proficiency is a little too powerful. That’s why a added the tough mechanic. I agree that I like the +1 hp/level better than the Tough feat, though.
The original thought was inflicted by the NightSong Enforcer, so I wanted to add mechanic that influenced skills. How about something like this?
As an action you signal one one willing creature who can see you within 30’. Once that round, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check from the following Athletics, Acrobatics, or Perception.
I toyed with the idea of allowing sneak attack to extend to all simple weapons and one martial weapon you are proficient with. I like the idea of a thug wielding a club. I also like the idea of a Little John type rogue spinning a staff. I like the idea of a spear striking Oberyn Martell. I also like the idea of an elf using a longsword, dwarf with an axe or a bugbear with a morning star. A whip would also be pretty cool.
I’m leery about potential for abuse with Great Weapon Fighting, PAM and sentinel with the version weapons on the simple list. I Like the thought of a brute using a club with two hands, or a staff/spear. I think this should be an option for later levels or with multi class but not right out of the gate.
scrapper was supposed to be a nerfed Two weapon fighting as it burned your cunning action. But I agree that the fighting style is simpler and opens a few more options.
I like the fighting style. Which ones would you open up to? Dueling, Defense and Two weapon make sense.
I’m concerned that adding Shield proficiency is a little too powerful. That’s why a added the tough mechanic. I agree that I like the +1 hp/level better than the Tough feat, though.
Yes, those 3 styles. I'd also add in protection if you go with Shield proficiency (because why not give them the choice), but Shields may not fit in with this fully depending on the other features.
The original thought was inflicted by the NightSong Enforcer, so I wanted to add mechanic that influenced skills. How about something like this?
As an action you signal one one willing creature who can see you within 30’. Once that round, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check from the following Athletics, Acrobatics, or Perception.
How about "When taking the help action to assist with an ability check, the creature you assist can choose to use your bonus to the check instead of its own"? That way there's a situational bonus which allows whatever profs and expertise you have as the Rogue to shine, even if it's not you making the check. (This might need to be clarified as "Skill or Tool check" instead though)
I toyed with the idea of allowing sneak attack to extend to all simple weapons and one martial weapon you are proficient with. I like the idea of a thug wielding a club. I also like the idea of a Little John type rogue spinning a staff. I like the idea of a spear striking Oberyn Martell. I also like the idea of an elf using a longsword, dwarf with an axe or a bugbear with a morning star. A whip would also be pretty cool.
I’m leery about potential for abuse with Great Weapon Fighting, PAM and sentinel with the version weapons on the simple list. I Like the thought of a brute using a club with two hands, or a staff/spear. I think this should be an option for later levels or with multi class but not right out of the gate.
Valid concerns. Potentially limit it to (simple) weapons the Rogue is wielding in One-Hand which lack the Heavy property? That way you're removing some weapons, but still leaving it open to a lot of personal choice on weaponry. It doesn't remove the overlap with PAM and the OA when creatures enter your reach, but it does prevent you from using the GWM -5/+10 with it.
Alternatively, just name specific weapons which can now benefit from the sneak attack feature. Nothing to stop you from doing that.
You might be a thug wielding a club, a Little John type rogue spinning a staff, a spear striking Oberyn Martell or Locke Lomorra’s right hand man, Jean Tannen, wielding the dark sisters, hurling the dreaded hatchets at foes. You’re a boon to a infiltration team, able to assist your fellow stealth mates making them a bit more effective in applying the trade.
Ruffian Fighter You gain the ability to gain sneak attack with one additional weapon you are proficient with as long as it does not have the heavy quality. If it is a versatile martial weapon you may only wield it one handed. You gain proficiency with shields.
You gain one Fighting style. You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again. Choose one of the following options Defense
While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
Dueling
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Lookout Once, as your action, an ally within 30 ‘ who is able to see you can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to either Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Thieves’ tools.
Enforcer Toughness At 3rd level , you gain 3 hit points to your hit point maximum and this increases by 1 every time you gain a level in the subclass.
Extra Attack Beginning at 9th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Iron Jaw By 13th level, you have learned to withstand hefty blows and stay upright. You have advantage on saving throws against being paralyzed, knocked prone, or stunned.
Brutal Strike At level 17, when you damage a creature in melee combat the damage dice you roll that come up 1’s count as 2’s instead
rogue's should not get extra attack without some sort of tradeoff. As I stated earlier give them another attack but at the cost of their bonus action is fair. Or maybe if you successfully deal sneak attack damage you may take an additional attack as a bonus action.
You can all-ready perform a second attack with your bonus action. The rogue would still only be able to perform sneak attack once.
what would you suggest for a 9th level? Most melee builds get a second attack.
rogue's aren't martial classes giving them extra attack with full sneak attack breaks the balance of the game. When you could sneak attack you can forgo half the damage dice to blind your target unless it succeeds on a con save until the end of your next turn. Go for fun abilities not game breaking power ups that step on the shoes of existing classes.
Completely agree. A second attack doesn’t add a second sneak attack. It’s still only once per turn.
So the 9th level stealth enforcer with an attack score of 18 would be able to smash twice with his mace and once with a short sword. Each hit would give D6 +4 damage, but only one attack would also give sneak attack damage, if the opponent was engaged with an ally.
Completely agree. A second attack doesn’t add a second sneak attack. It’s still only once per turn.
So the 9th level stealth enforcer with an attack score of 18 would be able to smash twice with his mace and once with a short sword. Each hit would give D6 +4 damage, but only one attack would a give sneak attack damage, if the opponent was engaged with an ally.
thats not what I mean what I mean is sneak attack is balanced around the idea that your only getting one attack. Adding multiple attacks to a rogue unbalances the class's power level. Why would anyone play another martial class? Do you think giving a paladin a free max level spell slot to smite with every round? Thats essentially what this feature is on a rogue.
Completely agree. A second attack doesn’t add a second sneak attack. It’s still only once per turn.
So the 9th level stealth enforcer with an attack score of 18 would be able to smash twice with his mace and once with a short sword. Each hit would give D6 +4 damage, but only one attack would a give sneak attack damage, if the opponent was engaged with an ally.
thats not what I mean what I mean is sneak attack is balanced around the idea that your only getting one attack. Adding multiple attacks to a rogue unbalances the class's power level. Why would anyone play another martial class? Do you think giving a paladin a free max level spell slot to smite with every round? Thats essentially what this feature is on a rogue.
Rogues can dual wield light weapons (and can start with dual short swords if you want) so two attacks at the cost of your BA is already baked in as a consideration.
Giving an additional attack as a BA is fine for those only wielding one weapon, but if there’s a dual-wielder (and the subclass is already giving two weapon fighting as an option, further reinforcing wielding two weapons as viable) then it just needs something else to trigger if you’re engaged in two weapon fighting.
I’m not saying this list of suggestions is good as I’ve only just woken up, but you look at something like:
• +1 to AC if you have the two-weapon style and are wielding a weapon in each hand
• the swashbuckler bundled disengage from fancy footwork (which could be limited to the creature you made a BA Attack against if you really wanted)
• if you have two-weapon fighting and hit with both your Attack and your BA then the creature needs to make a check/save or have their movement reduced, or have an appropriate condition applied to them until the start/end of your next turn. (Although without a limit on times this can happen it could easily be too OP)
You could also go 5 Fighter Battlemaster with Riposte and Sentinel for the level 4 ASI, then flip to Rogue/Swashbuckler for the sneak attack damage. Once you have a 5/5 mix, you can decide which direction to go for the remaining levels.
Riposte and Sentinel are reactions on another turn, so they will allow you to get in 2 Sneak attacks per round (Riposte if they attack you and miss, Sentinel if they attack someone else who doesn't have sentinel). Between that and the medium armor/Shield proficiency in fighter you should be able to act as the Tank/Muscle Jean Tannen of the group.
Since it sounds like other rogues are likely in this campaign, you don't really have to be that Rogue-ish. So you could get away with Stealth as just a proficiency and then use Athletics as an Expertise (which would make grapples hella-fun.) and would really cement your role as the muscle. Charisma being a strong stat due to Swashbuckler also opens the door to a Expertise in Intimidation, both of which are perfectly capable of being grabbed with a background.
Personally, I'd most likely go with a 11 Battlemaster/9 Swashbuckler for this guy and leave the Rogue-ishness to a more dedicated character. this will net you a nice 3rd attack and some additional Fighter tricks and ASI for the various stats you are using or feats like Martial Adept, Toughness, etc. while still granting a sizable 5d6 sneak attack applied more often than usual and some various Charisma related bonuses.
I like the tone you’re adding, especially the +1 AC with two weapons or something like
Menacing Attack
When you hit a creature with both of your weapon attack and your off hand weapon attack, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn
Creating a muscle niche. Want to create a rogue who can fight toe to toe rather than moving a lot. A Tough that is part of a heist team.
Considering adding the ability to use other weapons for sneak attack. Perhaps simple weapons? It’s not hard to imagine this type of character with a big club or mace. And/or racial weapons? (I.e. Elf using Longsword, Dwarf using a war hammer, bugbear wielding a morning star, drow with a whip)
tough might be too powerful but I’d like the hero to go toe to toe without big armor/shield.
Think Robin Hood’s Little John, or Dual hatchet wielding Jean Tannen of the Gendleman Bastards, or the 4e Nightsong Enforcer.
First run at the Stealth Enforcer
Scrapper
Stealth Teammate
As an action, at 3rd level, allies within 30 feet of the rogue enforcer gain Advantage on Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Thieves’ tools. Allies must be able to see the rogue enforcer to benefit
Tough
At 3rd level , you gain the Tough feat.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 9th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Iron Jaw
By 13th level, you have learned to withstand hefty blows and stay upright. You have advantage on saving throws against being paralyzed, knocked prone, or stunned.
Brutal Strike
At level 17, when you damage a creature in melee combat the damage dice you roll that come up 1’s count as 2’s instead.
Perhaps the Stealth teammate ability should mimic the guidance spell bet limit to thief skills and have a 30’ range instead?
cut scrapper and the bonus tough feat. Instead give them access to a short list of fighting styles. At 3rd level fighting style and 1st level give them 1 bonus hp per class level.
Giving them tough for no investment gives them more hp than a fighter. Cutting that in half puts them on par with a fighter. Extra attack may be too much considering they have sneak attack. Give them a conditional extra attack where if you meet condition x then you can take another attack as a bonus action.
@1stsonofkrynn Re: Give them a conditional extra attack where if you meet condition x then you can take another attack as a bonus action.
Can You give an example? you're suggesting this at 9th level?
something like if you miss with an attack that had advantage you may use your bonus action to make another attack. Giving rogues an extra attack is fine but it needs to use their bonus action in order to keep it in balance.
Hi,
Some random thoughts.
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
Thanks for the feedback.
scrapper was supposed to be a nerfed Two weapon fighting as it burned your cunning action. But I agree that the fighting style is simpler and opens a few more options.
I like the fighting style. Which ones would you open up to? Dueling, Defense and Two weapon make sense.
I’m concerned that adding Shield proficiency is a little too powerful. That’s why a added the tough mechanic. I agree that I like the +1 hp/level better than the Tough feat, though.
The original thought was inflicted by the NightSong Enforcer, so I wanted to add mechanic that influenced skills. How about something like this?
As an action you signal one one willing creature who can see you within 30’. Once that round, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check from the following Athletics, Acrobatics, or Perception.
I toyed with the idea of allowing sneak attack to extend to all simple weapons and one martial weapon you are proficient with. I like the idea of a thug wielding a club. I also like the idea of a Little John type rogue spinning a staff. I like the idea of a spear striking Oberyn Martell. I also like the idea of an elf using a longsword, dwarf with an axe or a bugbear with a morning star. A whip would also be pretty cool.
I’m leery about potential for abuse with Great Weapon Fighting, PAM and sentinel with the version weapons on the simple list. I Like the thought of a brute using a club with two hands, or a staff/spear. I think this should be an option for later levels or with multi class but not right out of the gate.
Yes, those 3 styles. I'd also add in protection if you go with Shield proficiency (because why not give them the choice), but Shields may not fit in with this fully depending on the other features.
How about "When taking the help action to assist with an ability check, the creature you assist can choose to use your bonus to the check instead of its own"? That way there's a situational bonus which allows whatever profs and expertise you have as the Rogue to shine, even if it's not you making the check. (This might need to be clarified as "Skill or Tool check" instead though)
Valid concerns. Potentially limit it to (simple) weapons the Rogue is wielding in One-Hand which lack the Heavy property? That way you're removing some weapons, but still leaving it open to a lot of personal choice on weaponry. It doesn't remove the overlap with PAM and the OA when creatures enter your reach, but it does prevent you from using the GWM -5/+10 with it.
Alternatively, just name specific weapons which can now benefit from the sneak attack feature. Nothing to stop you from doing that.
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
Here’s an update:
stealth enforcer
base class Rogue
You might be a thug wielding a club, a Little John type rogue spinning a staff, a spear striking Oberyn Martell or Locke Lomorra’s right hand man, Jean Tannen, wielding the dark sisters, hurling the dreaded hatchets at foes. You’re a boon to a infiltration team, able to assist your fellow stealth mates making them a bit more effective in applying the trade.
Ruffian Fighter
You gain the ability to gain sneak attack with one additional weapon you are proficient with as long as it does not have the heavy quality. If it is a versatile martial weapon you may only wield it one handed.
You gain proficiency with shields.
You gain one Fighting style. You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again. Choose one of the following options
Defense
While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
Dueling
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Lookout
Once, as your action, an ally within 30 ‘ who is able to see you can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to either Acrobatics, Athletics, Investigation, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth and Thieves’ tools.
Enforcer Toughness
At 3rd level , you gain 3 hit points to your hit point maximum and this increases by 1 every time you gain a level in the subclass.
Extra Attack
Beginning at 9th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Iron Jaw
By 13th level, you have learned to withstand hefty blows and stay upright. You have advantage on saving throws against being paralyzed, knocked prone, or stunned.
Brutal Strike
At level 17, when you damage a creature in melee combat the damage dice you roll that come up 1’s count as 2’s instead
rogue's should not get extra attack without some sort of tradeoff. As I stated earlier give them another attack but at the cost of their bonus action is fair. Or maybe if you successfully deal sneak attack damage you may take an additional attack as a bonus action.
You can all-ready perform a second attack with your bonus action. The rogue would still only be able to perform sneak attack once.
what would you suggest for a 9th level? Most melee builds get a second attack.
rogue's aren't martial classes giving them extra attack with full sneak attack breaks the balance of the game. When you could sneak attack you can forgo half the damage dice to blind your target unless it succeeds on a con save until the end of your next turn. Go for fun abilities not game breaking power ups that step on the shoes of existing classes.
Completely agree. A second attack doesn’t add a second sneak attack. It’s still only once per turn.
So the 9th level stealth enforcer with an attack score of 18 would be able to smash twice with his mace and once with a short sword. Each hit would give D6 +4 damage, but only one attack would also give sneak attack damage, if the opponent was engaged with an ally.
thats not what I mean what I mean is sneak attack is balanced around the idea that your only getting one attack. Adding multiple attacks to a rogue unbalances the class's power level. Why would anyone play another martial class? Do you think giving a paladin a free max level spell slot to smite with every round? Thats essentially what this feature is on a rogue.
Rogues can dual wield light weapons (and can start with dual short swords if you want) so two attacks at the cost of your BA is already baked in as a consideration.
Giving an additional attack as a BA is fine for those only wielding one weapon, but if there’s a dual-wielder (and the subclass is already giving two weapon fighting as an option, further reinforcing wielding two weapons as viable) then it just needs something else to trigger if you’re engaged in two weapon fighting.
I’m not saying this list of suggestions is good as I’ve only just woken up, but you look at something like:
• +1 to AC if you have the two-weapon style and are wielding a weapon in each hand
• the swashbuckler bundled disengage from fancy footwork (which could be limited to the creature you made a BA Attack against if you really wanted)
• if you have two-weapon fighting and hit with both your Attack and your BA then the creature needs to make a check/save or have their movement reduced, or have an appropriate condition applied to them until the start/end of your next turn. (Although without a limit on times this can happen it could easily be too OP)
Please take a look at my homebrewed Spells, Magic Items, and Subclasses. Any feedback appreciated.
Spartan_MD,
You could also go 5 Fighter Battlemaster with Riposte and Sentinel for the level 4 ASI, then flip to Rogue/Swashbuckler for the sneak attack damage. Once you have a 5/5 mix, you can decide which direction to go for the remaining levels.
Riposte and Sentinel are reactions on another turn, so they will allow you to get in 2 Sneak attacks per round (Riposte if they attack you and miss, Sentinel if they attack someone else who doesn't have sentinel). Between that and the medium armor/Shield proficiency in fighter you should be able to act as the Tank/Muscle Jean Tannen of the group.
Since it sounds like other rogues are likely in this campaign, you don't really have to be that Rogue-ish. So you could get away with Stealth as just a proficiency and then use Athletics as an Expertise (which would make grapples hella-fun.) and would really cement your role as the muscle. Charisma being a strong stat due to Swashbuckler also opens the door to a Expertise in Intimidation, both of which are perfectly capable of being grabbed with a background.
Personally, I'd most likely go with a 11 Battlemaster/9 Swashbuckler for this guy and leave the Rogue-ishness to a more dedicated character. this will net you a nice 3rd attack and some additional Fighter tricks and ASI for the various stats you are using or feats like Martial Adept, Toughness, etc. while still granting a sizable 5d6 sneak attack applied more often than usual and some various Charisma related bonuses.
@BazGC
I like the tone you’re adding, especially the +1 AC with two weapons or something like
Menacing Attack
When you hit a creature with both of your weapon attack and your off hand weapon attack, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it is frightened of you until the end of your next turn
Might this not be easier to build as a Fighter subclass? Think maybe more “sneaky fighter” than “bruiser rogue” would be easier?
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