First time posting, please be gentle. I am really enamored with the swiss army knife nature of warforged armblades, but the lack of warshields and warbows is, in my humble opinion, a grave oversight. So i took to homebrewing my own versions, and I would like to have your feedback (positive or negative, but definitively constructive) and see what you think of my versions and how they compare to the versions by Mastersword13z, C00perton and SirGambit25.
Shield first, as it is easiest to explain. TheArmshield by Mastersword13zis a simple, stuck on shield when attuned and can be unattuned in the short timespan of one minute. So far, so good. My version retains the Armblades typical retractability feature, and disallows hand use when extended unless explicitly stated otherwhise, such as in the War Caster feat. As the Eberron books only mention Armblades, I would categorize the plain, retractable Armshield without bells and whistles as an uncommon magic item. Any improvements upon it would therefore automatically be at least a rare item.
Next the Armbows. The apparently more popular version by SirGambit25 is an integrated, repeating, non-retractable Hand crossbow +1 with a munitions capacity of 5, the Loading property (no multiattack) and external feed, therefore able to shoot prepared ammunition. It is a rare magic item with magical piercing damage. The version by C00perton, on the other hand, is an integrated, retractable Hand crossbow +1 with infinite munitions, no Loading property and no external feed (what you see is what you get). It is an uncommon magic item with magical piercing damage.
I have thought of two versions, one for the Hand crossbow and one for the Light crossbow. The Armbow (Light crossbow) is an integrated, retractable crossbow with a munitions capacity of 5 (expressed as charges), no Loading property, no Two-Handed property, Finesse and no external feed. As a bonus action, one may replenish up to 5 charges by using a part of ones internal mass and integrity, sacrificing as many hit points. No temporary hit points may be used for this ability. On a short or long rest, the ammunitions storage replenishes all charges, putting no strain on the wielder in the process. It does non-magical piercing damage and is an uncommon magic item (same justifications as the Armshield). Seeing as it becomes a bodypart of the Warforged, this struck me as fair, although I guess the Finesse might be overkill. I am also thinking about reducing the maximum of charges replenishable by bonus action to 3, but as it also carries a price, I think it is fair as-is. The Armbow (Hand crossbow) is an integrated, retractable crossbow with a munitions capacity of 8 (expressed as charges), no Loading property, Finesse and no external feed. As a bonus action, one may replenish up to 5 charges by using a part of ones internal mass and integrity, sacrificing as many hit points. No temporary hit points may be used for this ability. On a short or long rest, the ammunitions storage replenishes all charges, putting no strain on the wielder in the process. It does non-magical piercing damage and is an uncommon magic item (for reasons that should now be obvious). I think that here, the Finesse property is absolutely justified, but the max amount rechargeable by bonus action is similarly up to debate.
UPDATE: While I have not received any feedback as of yet, just brooding over a problem may have its on merits. In the meantime I have come to the conclusion that, seeing as Armweapons become fully integrated parts of a Warforged, the handling might be somewhat different, but not too much. I would therefore pose that the Armbow (Light crossbow) should NOT be a Finesse weapon, but shouldn't be a Two-Handed weapon either (as stated above). The Armbow (Hand crossbow), on the other hand (heh), SHOULD be a Finesse weapon, but would lose its Light property in turn, as quick shots from the hip and the like are not possible with arm-mounted weaponry - a wrists range of movement is essential for these actions.
Why should a hand crossbow be finesse? Why would they ever use Strength to fire a crossbow? The Light property has nothing to do with hip firing, I’m not too sure what you’re going for there. Why would they not have the Loading property? I think having a Hand Crossbow in the arm is super cool, I’m just not sure why you are changing it so much.
Why should a hand crossbow be finesse? Why would they ever use Strength to fire a crossbow?
Okay, I worded that part poorly. I started with the question "Why are ranged weapons dexterity-based by default?". As I understand it, dexterity measures agility, reflexes and balance in movement, therefore it is important to be dexterous when handling ranged weaponry in order to lead and hit a moving target with a weapon that you can move freely along several axes. What I think 5e is missing, however, is something to account for the fact that you can substitute dexterity with strength when you reduce the complexity of your movement - a reverse finesse trait, akin to... I dunno, platform stability? The mechanic already exists, you use it when you throw handaxes at people as a strength-based fighter, for example. As I stated (in a rambly fashion, admittedly), embedding the crossbow into your forearm reduces the range of movement in comparison to a handheld weapon. On the other hand (heh), the integration into the forearm allows for more stability as both the weight as well as the recoil can be supported and handled more directly by the torso and core structure of the Warforged. More stability means less microcorrections needed, means better aim and easier leading of soon-to-be dead enemies. My problem here was that, to my knowledge, there is no reverse Finesse trait, as in "usually, this would be DEX, but if you're better with STR, go for it." Finesse is thematically not the correct trait, but it arrives at the goal mechanically.
The light crossbow variant does not profit from this for the simple reason that the normally two-handed weapon is probably too heavy to just swing your merged arm around with force, so you'd need to adjust your stance by pivoting around your shoulder and/or elbow to get the same effect - which sounds like a DEX thing to me. If you prefer to do this with the hand crossbow version as well, there you go, keeping it DEX and simple.
The Light property has nothing to do with hip firing, I’m not too sure what you’re going for there.
The light property signifies that a weapon is (shocker!) light, small and easy to handle, which is a requirement to be able to dual-wield the weapon. In fact, the only impact of light weaponry I can think of is in regards to dual wielding. Again, why? Coordinating weapons when dual-wielding is hard. So hard, in fact, that you will only be able to use your secondary weapon as more than an afterthought if you take the "Two-Weapon Fighting" fighting style for it. This means that you need to be able to react quickly to exploit openings when you attack with your primary weapons, regardless of fighting style. That, in turn, means you need flexibility, freedom of movement, perhaps another rotational axis? With that axis gone and the weapon embedded in the arm, I think that benefit of the hand crossbow is gone, hence why I removed the light property.
Why would they not have the Loading property?
That one's easy. Integrated, inaccessible, self-regenerating ammunition requires a delivery mechanism. If that mechanism is embedded within the arm of a mechanical creature, making that mechanism self-reloading is only a minimal extra-step. It is also the reason why a Warforged can't just press a normal crossbow, hand or light, against its arm and BAM!, instant handbow. No, these are specialized parts, with an effective and intricate design that allows the wielder to retract and deploy them at a thought. I don't see why a thought is not also sufficient to put a new bolt in and pull back the string. Artificers have figured this out with the "Repeating" infusion, and that one even adds magic damage and targeting, so the basic armbow looks quite meek in comparison.
By the by, thank you for the questions. I apparently need this so that I can structure my thoughts and reasoning into something resembling a coherent argument.
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines dexterity thusly:
Definition of dexterity
1: readiness and grace in physical activity especially: skill and ease in using the hands
Dex also measure Hand-to-Eye coordination. The reason a handaxe uses Str is because it requires Strength to throw it. I could see using Str for a bow because of having to physically draw the bow once nocked. A crossbow uses a mechanical firing system so Str is irrelevant.
Why would embedding a Hand Crossbow restrict movement any more than a Shortsword? Like you said, Light only matters with two-weapon fighting, and those rules specify melee-weapons. Since the hand crossbow is ranged removing the light property accomplishes nothing.
Why would you assume that the ammunition is self replicating? By ignoring the loading property you invalidate several factors that are in place for game balance purposes. There are literally spells, magic items, and an Artificer Infusion all designer to do that. By giving it to them for free that’s a big boost. Let them get their free ammo the same ways every other PC has to get it. To use your words “the basic armbow looks quite meek by comparison” (meek does not mean weak my the way) to a magically infused item?!? Why should it not?!? Especially since the Artificer and the Warforged are in the same book....
Since the weapon is embedded in the forearm that leaves the hand free to use a sword. By giving them an arm-mounted shield as well that still leaves one hand free to reload. This setup basically gives the Warforged the benefit of two additional arms and you want to make it better for free by ignoring the loading property too...?
I honestly think that just allowing an arm-mounted hand crossbow is cool enough without all the extra stuff.
I could see using Str for a bow because of having to physically draw the bow once nocked. A crossbow uses a mechanical firing system so Str is irrelevant.
Two words: Platform. Stability. (I like the term, I think I'll keep it) It reduces the need for microadjustments, which are the defining factor in good hand-eye coordination, therefore literally substituting DEX with STR when you try to hit a target at a distance. It is the reason why competitive shooters fire more accurately when shooting prone. By integrating the weapon into the arm, the Warforged is better able to support the aim with its core structure, providing STR-based stability and lessening the need for DEX-based adjustments on the fly.
Why would embedding a Hand Crossbow restrict movement any more than a Shortsword?
It wouldn't. If you want to use DEX with the Armbow (hand crossbow), you absolutely can. Embedding it in the arm gives you more versatility, not less. If you want to use quick and precise adjustments instead of deliberate, stable aiming, you can absolutely do so. I guess that it just means that (for RP purposes) you'd need to involve the rest of your upper body a little more as you're missing a wrist to work with - but I don't think that this would pose any significant hindrance.
Like you said, Light only matters with two-weapon fighting, and those rules specify melee-weapons. Since the hand crossbow is ranged removing the light property accomplishes nothing.
True. The rules as stated in chapter 9 of the PHB are explicitly only for melee weapons. But why would the hand crossbow even have the property if it accomplished absolutely nothing in the first place? I think that it is usable in dual-wielding, as addressed in the Dungeon Dudes video on the "Crossbow Expert" feat, which explains the conundrum around it expertly. If, however, the property is indeed useless, then I don't understand what the fuss is about. It accomplished nothing. Good riddance.
By the by, rewatching the Dungeon Dudes made me realize that the "ammunition as charges, auto-loading" mechanic needs to replace the ammunitions property, otherwise you'd still need a hand free to reload, which is just silly. Avoiding this was the whole reason why I came up with the charges mechanic in the first place! On that note...
Why would you assume that the ammunition is self replicating? By ignoring the loading property you invalidate several factors that are in place for game balance purposes. There are literally spells, magic items, and an Artificer Infusion all designer to do that. By giving it to them for free that’s a big boost.
I don't assume this, I explicitly design it that way, and here's why: All three Armweapons I am designing are uncommon wondrous items (making it about as rare as a Bag of Holding), as opposed to the other standard Armblades, which are common wondrous items. I think that it is fair to make it uncommon instead of rare, given it doesn't also have the magical damage property. This (and the limited ammo or hitpoint drain) makes it objectively worse than a Repetition-infused hand-crossbow, by the way, which any third level Artificer can make basically for the low cost of 75 gp. I do not just give all Warforged this thing for free. Uncommon wondrous items cost approximately 100-500 gp according to DMG, if they can be bought at all. If you go with Giant in the Playground, something in the 3000 to 5000 gp range would be more appropriate. Compared to C00pertons version, which is also an uncommon, I'd say my version is a more reasonable deal - I'd have rated C00pertons as a rare.
Since the weapon is embedded in the forearm that leaves the hand free to use a sword. By giving them an arm-mounted shield as well that still leaves one hand free to reload. This setup basically gives the Warforged the benefit of two additional arms and you want to make it better for free by ignoring the loading property too...?
No. Armblades, and by extension my Armbows and Armshield need to be extended to be used. This costs a bonus action and renders the hand with the extended Armweapon unuseable. If you want to use the hand again, you need to retract the Armweapon to reenable your hand, which costs another bonus action. The only exception where you can use a hand despite having an extended Armweapon would be the Armshield with an appropriate feature that explicitly allows a hand to be used despite using a shield with it - such as the War Caster feat. So, if you hold a sword and switch to Armbow, you drop the sword if you didn't sheathe it beforehand. On a side note, the bonus action switch also means you can only extend or retract a single armweapon per turn, so no quick switching from Armshield/Armbow to Maul, then attacking in the same turn.
Aaand I learned something new again! Thank you :D
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Hi folks,
First time posting, please be gentle. I am really enamored with the swiss army knife nature of warforged armblades, but the lack of warshields and warbows is, in my humble opinion, a grave oversight. So i took to homebrewing my own versions, and I would like to have your feedback (positive or negative, but definitively constructive) and see what you think of my versions and how they compare to the versions by Mastersword13z, C00perton and SirGambit25.
Shield first, as it is easiest to explain. The Armshield by Mastersword13z is a simple, stuck on shield when attuned and can be unattuned in the short timespan of one minute. So far, so good.
My version retains the Armblades typical retractability feature, and disallows hand use when extended unless explicitly stated otherwhise, such as in the War Caster feat. As the Eberron books only mention Armblades, I would categorize the plain, retractable Armshield without bells and whistles as an uncommon magic item. Any improvements upon it would therefore automatically be at least a rare item.
Next the Armbows. The apparently more popular version by SirGambit25 is an integrated, repeating, non-retractable Hand crossbow +1 with a munitions capacity of 5, the Loading property (no multiattack) and external feed, therefore able to shoot prepared ammunition. It is a rare magic item with magical piercing damage.
The version by C00perton, on the other hand, is an integrated, retractable Hand crossbow +1 with infinite munitions, no Loading property and no external feed (what you see is what you get). It is an uncommon magic item with magical piercing damage.
I have thought of two versions, one for the Hand crossbow and one for the Light crossbow. The Armbow (Light crossbow) is an integrated, retractable crossbow with a munitions capacity of 5 (expressed as charges), no Loading property, no Two-Handed property, Finesse and no external feed. As a bonus action, one may replenish up to 5 charges by using a part of ones internal mass and integrity, sacrificing as many hit points. No temporary hit points may be used for this ability. On a short or long rest, the ammunitions storage replenishes all charges, putting no strain on the wielder in the process. It does non-magical piercing damage and is an uncommon magic item (same justifications as the Armshield). Seeing as it becomes a bodypart of the Warforged, this struck me as fair, although I guess the Finesse might be overkill. I am also thinking about reducing the maximum of charges replenishable by bonus action to 3, but as it also carries a price, I think it is fair as-is.
The Armbow (Hand crossbow) is an integrated, retractable crossbow with a munitions capacity of 8 (expressed as charges), no Loading property, Finesse and no external feed. As a bonus action, one may replenish up to 5 charges by using a part of ones internal mass and integrity, sacrificing as many hit points. No temporary hit points may be used for this ability. On a short or long rest, the ammunitions storage replenishes all charges, putting no strain on the wielder in the process. It does non-magical piercing damage and is an uncommon magic item (for reasons that should now be obvious). I think that here, the Finesse property is absolutely justified, but the max amount rechargeable by bonus action is similarly up to debate.
Sooo...
What do y'all think?
UPDATE:
While I have not received any feedback as of yet, just brooding over a problem may have its on merits. In the meantime I have come to the conclusion that, seeing as Armweapons become fully integrated parts of a Warforged, the handling might be somewhat different, but not too much. I would therefore pose that the Armbow (Light crossbow) should NOT be a Finesse weapon, but shouldn't be a Two-Handed weapon either (as stated above). The Armbow (Hand crossbow), on the other hand (heh), SHOULD be a Finesse weapon, but would lose its Light property in turn, as quick shots from the hip and the like are not possible with arm-mounted weaponry - a wrists range of movement is essential for these actions.
Why should a hand crossbow be finesse? Why would they ever use Strength to fire a crossbow? The Light property has nothing to do with hip firing, I’m not too sure what you’re going for there. Why would they not have the Loading property? I think having a Hand Crossbow in the arm is super cool, I’m just not sure why you are changing it so much.
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Okay, I worded that part poorly. I started with the question "Why are ranged weapons dexterity-based by default?".
As I understand it, dexterity measures agility, reflexes and balance in movement, therefore it is important to be dexterous when handling ranged weaponry in order to lead and hit a moving target with a weapon that you can move freely along several axes. What I think 5e is missing, however, is something to account for the fact that you can substitute dexterity with strength when you reduce the complexity of your movement - a reverse finesse trait, akin to... I dunno, platform stability? The mechanic already exists, you use it when you throw handaxes at people as a strength-based fighter, for example. As I stated (in a rambly fashion, admittedly), embedding the crossbow into your forearm reduces the range of movement in comparison to a handheld weapon. On the other hand (heh), the integration into the forearm allows for more stability as both the weight as well as the recoil can be supported and handled more directly by the torso and core structure of the Warforged. More stability means less microcorrections needed, means better aim and easier leading of soon-to-be dead enemies. My problem here was that, to my knowledge, there is no reverse Finesse trait, as in "usually, this would be DEX, but if you're better with STR, go for it." Finesse is thematically not the correct trait, but it arrives at the goal mechanically.
The light crossbow variant does not profit from this for the simple reason that the normally two-handed weapon is probably too heavy to just swing your merged arm around with force, so you'd need to adjust your stance by pivoting around your shoulder and/or elbow to get the same effect - which sounds like a DEX thing to me. If you prefer to do this with the hand crossbow version as well, there you go, keeping it DEX and simple.
The light property signifies that a weapon is (shocker!) light, small and easy to handle, which is a requirement to be able to dual-wield the weapon. In fact, the only impact of light weaponry I can think of is in regards to dual wielding. Again, why?
Coordinating weapons when dual-wielding is hard. So hard, in fact, that you will only be able to use your secondary weapon as more than an afterthought if you take the "Two-Weapon Fighting" fighting style for it. This means that you need to be able to react quickly to exploit openings when you attack with your primary weapons, regardless of fighting style. That, in turn, means you need flexibility, freedom of movement, perhaps another rotational axis? With that axis gone and the weapon embedded in the arm, I think that benefit of the hand crossbow is gone, hence why I removed the light property.
That one's easy. Integrated, inaccessible, self-regenerating ammunition requires a delivery mechanism. If that mechanism is embedded within the arm of a mechanical creature, making that mechanism self-reloading is only a minimal extra-step. It is also the reason why a Warforged can't just press a normal crossbow, hand or light, against its arm and BAM!, instant handbow. No, these are specialized parts, with an effective and intricate design that allows the wielder to retract and deploy them at a thought. I don't see why a thought is not also sufficient to put a new bolt in and pull back the string. Artificers have figured this out with the "Repeating" infusion, and that one even adds magic damage and targeting, so the basic armbow looks quite meek in comparison.
By the by, thank you for the questions. I apparently need this so that I can structure my thoughts and reasoning into something resembling a coherent argument.
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines dexterity thusly:
Definition of dexterity
1: readiness and grace in physical activity especially : skill and ease in using the hands
Dex also measure Hand-to-Eye coordination. The reason a handaxe uses Str is because it requires Strength to throw it. I could see using Str for a bow because of having to physically draw the bow once nocked. A crossbow uses a mechanical firing system so Str is irrelevant.
Why would embedding a Hand Crossbow restrict movement any more than a Shortsword? Like you said, Light only matters with two-weapon fighting, and those rules specify melee-weapons. Since the hand crossbow is ranged removing the light property accomplishes nothing.
Why would you assume that the ammunition is self replicating? By ignoring the loading property you invalidate several factors that are in place for game balance purposes. There are literally spells, magic items, and an Artificer Infusion all designer to do that. By giving it to them for free that’s a big boost. Let them get their free ammo the same ways every other PC has to get it. To use your words “the basic armbow looks quite meek by comparison” (meek does not mean weak my the way) to a magically infused item?!? Why should it not?!? Especially since the Artificer and the Warforged are in the same book....
Since the weapon is embedded in the forearm that leaves the hand free to use a sword. By giving them an arm-mounted shield as well that still leaves one hand free to reload. This setup basically gives the Warforged the benefit of two additional arms and you want to make it better for free by ignoring the loading property too...?
I honestly think that just allowing an arm-mounted hand crossbow is cool enough without all the extra stuff.
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Two words: Platform. Stability. (I like the term, I think I'll keep it)
It reduces the need for microadjustments, which are the defining factor in good hand-eye coordination, therefore literally substituting DEX with STR when you try to hit a target at a distance. It is the reason why competitive shooters fire more accurately when shooting prone. By integrating the weapon into the arm, the Warforged is better able to support the aim with its core structure, providing STR-based stability and lessening the need for DEX-based adjustments on the fly.
It wouldn't. If you want to use DEX with the Armbow (hand crossbow), you absolutely can. Embedding it in the arm gives you more versatility, not less. If you want to use quick and precise adjustments instead of deliberate, stable aiming, you can absolutely do so. I guess that it just means that (for RP purposes) you'd need to involve the rest of your upper body a little more as you're missing a wrist to work with - but I don't think that this would pose any significant hindrance.
True. The rules as stated in chapter 9 of the PHB are explicitly only for melee weapons. But why would the hand crossbow even have the property if it accomplished absolutely nothing in the first place? I think that it is usable in dual-wielding, as addressed in the Dungeon Dudes video on the "Crossbow Expert" feat, which explains the conundrum around it expertly. If, however, the property is indeed useless, then I don't understand what the fuss is about. It accomplished nothing. Good riddance.
By the by, rewatching the Dungeon Dudes made me realize that the "ammunition as charges, auto-loading" mechanic needs to replace the ammunitions property, otherwise you'd still need a hand free to reload, which is just silly. Avoiding this was the whole reason why I came up with the charges mechanic in the first place! On that note...
I don't assume this, I explicitly design it that way, and here's why:
All three Armweapons I am designing are uncommon wondrous items (making it about as rare as a Bag of Holding), as opposed to the other standard Armblades, which are common wondrous items. I think that it is fair to make it uncommon instead of rare, given it doesn't also have the magical damage property. This (and the limited ammo or hitpoint drain) makes it objectively worse than a Repetition-infused hand-crossbow, by the way, which any third level Artificer can make basically for the low cost of 75 gp. I do not just give all Warforged this thing for free. Uncommon wondrous items cost approximately 100-500 gp according to DMG, if they can be bought at all. If you go with Giant in the Playground, something in the 3000 to 5000 gp range would be more appropriate.
Compared to C00pertons version, which is also an uncommon, I'd say my version is a more reasonable deal - I'd have rated C00pertons as a rare.
No.
Armblades, and by extension my Armbows and Armshield need to be extended to be used. This costs a bonus action and renders the hand with the extended Armweapon unuseable. If you want to use the hand again, you need to retract the Armweapon to reenable your hand, which costs another bonus action. The only exception where you can use a hand despite having an extended Armweapon would be the Armshield with an appropriate feature that explicitly allows a hand to be used despite using a shield with it - such as the War Caster feat. So, if you hold a sword and switch to Armbow, you drop the sword if you didn't sheathe it beforehand.
On a side note, the bonus action switch also means you can only extend or retract a single armweapon per turn, so no quick switching from Armshield/Armbow to Maul, then attacking in the same turn.
Aaand I learned something new again! Thank you :D