I love the concept of the Lore wizard from a storytelling and RP standpoint. I do agree that it was way overpowered as it was written. Im wanting to create a subclass that fills the space of a character who yearns to understand magic as its core, someone who views it maybe as a science or skill. Im just spitballing the various ideas for the class features. what are your thoughts? what order do you feel balances the subclass properly?
Learning more spells as you level up, 3 or 4 instead of 2 Expertise in arcana and/or investigation Eschew materials Learn different versions/damage types of spells when writing in spellbook Learn cantrips/spells from other classes Spell resistance Innate detect magic Dispel and counterspell without using slot once per long rest
I bounced around the idea of remaking this subclass myself at one point (never finished it), I personally went with the idea of having the lore wizard be a magic scroll based wizard. Here are some of the ideas I came up with (that you don't have listed).
Bonus languages, and reduced time/cost to learn new ones.
Cost/time to copy spells from a spell scroll is reduced. (same ratio as official sub classes)
Cost and time to make your own spell scroll is reduced. (I'd look at artificer now for those ratios)
Can cast spells from spell scrolls without consuming scroll once per long rest.
Twice per long rest you can cast cast a spell from your spellbook that you do not have prepared (cannot upcast the spell)
Once per day at the end of a short rest, you can change a number of prepared spells equal to your INT modifier.
Can cast spells with ritual tags as rituals by only adding an addition 1 minute rather than 10 minutes.
Can cast comprehend language at will, and has advantage against madness from reading text (for those far realm languages)
Increase number of spells you can have prepared
can learn spells from other spell classes (either through level or copying)
The idea that I have is that the character would have an increasing knowledge of the workings or magic. I don’t want any on the fly or bonus action changes to damage or damage type, saving throws etc. if they happens it happens when the wizard scribes the spell in his spellbook and it counts as a different spell entirely. I want to gaining knowledge and gaining spells and their manipulation to be a scientific approach not an on the fly approach. I feel like that is too much the sorcerer’s jam with metamagic.
Im just not sure if the class feats I've been spitballing are overpowered, underpowered, and/or what order to put them in...
Well if you take a look at some of my wizard subclasses, I kind of have a system that I've started to use for wizards. So this is what I try to do, though of course there are some I made that bends/breaks my own rule.
level 2
Main feature. Just what do you want your wizard to do to either enhance their magic or as an additional feature.
Flavor feature(s). learn proficiency (of any kind), copying spell reductions, adding more subclass iconic cantrips/spells (no higher than 1st level)
level 6/10
Learn one or two spells that can be seen as go to spells and enhance them. If spell is 2nd/3rd, then level 6 feature, if 4th/5th level then level 10 feature.
The feature that was not chosen for the spell add/buff gets a feature that is mostly flavor but useful. I try for defensive or utility buffs most of the time for this feature
level 14
Capstone feature - I try to have this feature be an improvement to the main feature (or other feature), a long rest feature, or just something that you think a "master" of this subclass can do.
@FallenPheonixIV, that actually helps me a lot. I’ll put that template to use here in a bit and come up with a first draft, post it and get everyone’s opinion on it then revise as needed.
Learning more spells as you level up, instead of 2, I'm thinking 2 wizard spells and 1 from another class. and allowing cantrips from other classes at levels 4 and 10
Expertise/double proficiency in arcana and/or investigation checks.
Level 6:
Learn different save/damage types of spells when writing in spellbook as completely different spells. not changeable on the fly and must be prepared separately.
Level 10:
Add profiency bonus to saves and AC against spells (maybe too good?)
Level 14:
Dispel and counterspell without using slot once per rest (not sure if it should be short or long?)
I actually took an attempt at this by rebalancing how the original lore master works.
Lore Master -Level 2 Feature - This feature remained as it was in the original UA, I would probably change it to be a choice of fewer skills if I went through the balancing a little more.
Spell Secrets - Level 2 Feature - The first major change, this feature in my version of the lore master only allows the caster to change the element of a spell to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder damage and only if that spell deals one of those types. As level 6 the caster gains Necrotic and Radiant and at level 10 they gain Force.
They are still allowed to substitute the ability save of a spell once per long rest.
Alchemical Casting - Level 6 Feature - This feature is retained, its features have been moved around as such
An additional 1st-level spell slot can increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.
An additional 2nd-level spell slot can increase the spell’s range. If the spell’s range is at least 30 feet, it is doubled.
An additional 3rd-level spell slot can increase the spell’s raw force. If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10 force damage
Both Prodigious Memory and Master of Magic are unchanged.
Learning more spells as you level up, instead of 2, I'm thinking 2 wizard spells and 1 from another class. and allowing cantrips from other classes at levels 4 and 10
Expertise/double proficiency in arcana and/or investigation checks.
I do like the idea of giving double proficiency in some of the INT skills, and that it works for this subclass. It's the first part of that feature I'm more focused on and a little unsure about... because getting 2 additional spells per level up will get pretty ridiculous I'd think... maybe if you'd make it so you learn one additional cantrip of any class, then limit that to learning additional spells at each level to one. Then also may include something like this little snippet from the Rhogarnorixius' polymath subclass and re-flavor it what you think would work for your subclass;
"Beginning at 10th level, you can copy any spells from spell scrolls that you find into your spellbook, even if these spells do not appear on the wizard spell list. For each level of a non-wizard spell you copy into your spellbook, the process takes 4 hours and costs 100 gp. This increased cost represents the difficulty of translating other schools of magic into your own personal notation system. Copied spells count as wizard spells for you, and once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare these spell just like your other spells."
Learn different save/damage types of spells when writing in spellbook as completely different spells. not changeable on the fly and must be prepared separately.
This feature I'm not against, but i don't think having them player having to make additional copies of the spell to do this is needed. I'd probably have them use their bonus action to do this, not sure if you'd want to limit it any further than that, but I did something similar with my School of Elementalism for its main feature, and it seems to work fine for what I played. Not as much damage as say evocation, but it allows you to over come resistances and immunities.
Add profiency bonus to saves and AC against spells (maybe too good?)
This feature I'm the most unsure about... is it strong yes... but I feel that its too strong as is. Try taking another look at this after you read about my notes for the 14th level feature.
Dispel and counterspell without using slot once per rest (not sure if it should be short or long?)
This feature is straight up too weak to be a level 14 feature. I'd make this a level 6/10 feature while also giving the spells to the player for free. This would be one way that I'd work this feature;
"At #th level, you add the counterspell and dispel magic spells to your spellbook if they are not there already. In addition, you each these spells a number of times equal to your Intellegence modifier times without expending a spell slot. You regain your uses of this feature at the end of a long rest."
just to make sure I get what your saying, on the main feature at level 2, add 1 cantrip from any class and allow 2 total spells to be learned per level with 1 of the 2 being able to be from a different class?
on the level 6 feature how about leaving the spell In the book as is but adding as a bonus action switching the damage or save type once per long rest?
level 10 giving the counterspell and dispel magic as you recommended instead of it being level 14
level 14 ill have to give this some thought on a capstone feature. the point of this class is someone who is a master of magical understanding and manipulation (without treading on the sorcerers playground of meta magic) so im open to suggestions.
@FallenPheonixIV on the level 2 ability I didn't mean 2 additional spells, the class give 2 at each level up, I was saying the 2 the class gives at level up and 1 additional spell from another spell list originally. Or still 2 total per level, 1 from the wizard spell list and 1 from another spell list. Thats what I was meaning.
After looking at what others have done and similar lore/knowledge home-brews i thought this might be a good 2nd level ability along the lines of the original without it going over the top and it goes to the them better I think. it might be too much though, let me know what you think:
After long rest choose damage type from the list fire, cold, lightning, acid or thunder. spells you cast ignore resistance of the selected type until you are incapacitated or your next long rest. Also choose Save type, when a spell you cast you can impose disadvantage on a saving throw of that type once per long rest.
or is basically elemental adept on a stick a bit too good for level 2? I thought it sounds thematically good, knowledge of magic and its effects allow the wizard to make elemental spells more effective against things that resist them. it also encourages planning and scouting of the enemies that he will face. just my thoughts, what do you guys think?
Sorry for the run on posts, @FallenPheonixIV and everyone else how does this all look?
Level 2:
Expertise/double proficiency in arcana and/or investigation checks.
When preparing spells you can change the damage type from fire, cold, lightning, acid and thunder to any of those types. The spell does the selected damage type until it is prepared again or replaced. The same spell can not be prepared more than once with different damage types.Maybe replace known cantrip with one from another list?
Level 6:
No need for spell components or a focus anymore. For spells with times with a specific cost make an ability check with spell casting mod with DC equal to 10 plus the spells level.
Levels 10 and 14 the same as the UA Lore Mastery tradition.
I love the concept of the Lore wizard from a storytelling and RP standpoint. I do agree that it was way overpowered as it was written. Im wanting to create a subclass that fills the space of a character who yearns to understand magic as its core, someone who views it maybe as a science or skill. Im just spitballing the various ideas for the class features. what are your thoughts? what order do you feel balances the subclass properly?
Learning more spells as you level up, 3 or 4 instead of 2
Expertise in arcana and/or investigation
Eschew materials
Learn different versions/damage types of spells when writing in spellbook
Learn cantrips/spells from other classes
Spell resistance
Innate detect magic
Dispel and counterspell without using slot once per long rest
I bounced around the idea of remaking this subclass myself at one point (never finished it), I personally went with the idea of having the lore wizard be a magic scroll based wizard. Here are some of the ideas I came up with (that you don't have listed).
update: added some more feature's I forgot about
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The idea that I have is that the character would have an increasing knowledge of the workings or magic. I don’t want any on the fly or bonus action changes to damage or damage type, saving throws etc. if they happens it happens when the wizard scribes the spell in his spellbook and it counts as a different spell entirely. I want to gaining knowledge and gaining spells and their manipulation to be a scientific approach not an on the fly approach. I feel like that is too much the sorcerer’s jam with metamagic.
Im just not sure if the class feats I've been spitballing are overpowered, underpowered, and/or what order to put them in...
What about an ability that would allow you to steal spells or prevent the casting of spells?
Well if you take a look at some of my wizard subclasses, I kind of have a system that I've started to use for wizards. So this is what I try to do, though of course there are some I made that bends/breaks my own rule.
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@FallenPheonixIV, that actually helps me a lot. I’ll put that template to use here in a bit and come up with a first draft, post it and get everyone’s opinion on it then revise as needed.
No problem, also be sure you take a look at what other people have already made to see what you can to put your own twist on the subclass
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the order of what im thinking thus far:
level 2:
Learning more spells as you level up, instead of 2, I'm thinking 2 wizard spells and 1 from another class. and allowing cantrips from other classes at levels 4 and 10
Expertise/double proficiency in arcana and/or investigation checks.
Level 6:
Learn different save/damage types of spells when writing in spellbook as completely different spells. not changeable on the fly and must be prepared separately.
Level 10:
Add profiency bonus to saves and AC against spells (maybe too good?)
Level 14:
Dispel and counterspell without using slot once per rest (not sure if it should be short or long?)
What are your thoughts?
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AlumniI actually took an attempt at this by rebalancing how the original lore master works.
Lore Master - Level 2 Feature - This feature remained as it was in the original UA, I would probably change it to be a choice of fewer skills if I went through the balancing a little more.
Spell Secrets - Level 2 Feature - The first major change, this feature in my version of the lore master only allows the caster to change the element of a spell to Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Thunder damage and only if that spell deals one of those types.
As level 6 the caster gains Necrotic and Radiant and at level 10 they gain Force.
They are still allowed to substitute the ability save of a spell once per long rest.
Alchemical Casting - Level 6 Feature -
This feature is retained, its features have been moved around as such
An additional 1st-level spell slot can increase the spell’s potency. Increase the spell’s save DC by 2.
An additional 2nd-level spell slot can increase the spell’s range. If the spell’s range is at least 30 feet, it is doubled.
An additional 3rd-level spell slot can increase the spell’s raw force. If you roll damage for the spell when you cast it, increase the damage against every target by 2d10 force damage
Both Prodigious Memory and Master of Magic are unchanged.
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I see a good starting point... but as is... I'm mixed on a few different features. So here's my opinion on what you have so far;
I do like the idea of giving double proficiency in some of the INT skills, and that it works for this subclass. It's the first part of that feature I'm more focused on and a little unsure about... because getting 2 additional spells per level up will get pretty ridiculous I'd think... maybe if you'd make it so you learn one additional cantrip of any class, then limit that to learning additional spells at each level to one. Then also may include something like this little snippet from the Rhogarnorixius' polymath subclass and re-flavor it what you think would work for your subclass;
"Beginning at 10th level, you can copy any spells from spell scrolls that you find into your spellbook, even if these spells do not appear on the wizard spell list. For each level of a non-wizard spell you copy into your spellbook, the process takes 4 hours and costs 100 gp. This increased cost represents the difficulty of translating other schools of magic into your own personal notation system. Copied spells count as wizard spells for you, and once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare these spell just like your other spells."
This feature I'm not against, but i don't think having them player having to make additional copies of the spell to do this is needed. I'd probably have them use their bonus action to do this, not sure if you'd want to limit it any further than that, but I did something similar with my School of Elementalism for its main feature, and it seems to work fine for what I played. Not as much damage as say evocation, but it allows you to over come resistances and immunities.
This feature I'm the most unsure about... is it strong yes... but I feel that its too strong as is. Try taking another look at this after you read about my notes for the 14th level feature.
This feature is straight up too weak to be a level 14 feature. I'd make this a level 6/10 feature while also giving the spells to the player for free. This would be one way that I'd work this feature;
"At #th level, you add the counterspell and dispel magic spells to your spellbook if they are not there already. In addition, you each these spells a number of times equal to your Intellegence modifier times without expending a spell slot. You regain your uses of this feature at the end of a long rest."
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To see my more recent homebrew creations, please check out my content on Hombrewery.
just to make sure I get what your saying, on the main feature at level 2, add 1 cantrip from any class and allow 2 total spells to be learned per level with 1 of the 2 being able to be from a different class?
on the level 6 feature how about leaving the spell In the book as is but adding as a bonus action switching the damage or save type once per long rest?
level 10 giving the counterspell and dispel magic as you recommended instead of it being level 14
level 14 ill have to give this some thought on a capstone feature. the point of this class is someone who is a master of magical understanding and manipulation (without treading on the sorcerers playground of meta magic) so im open to suggestions.
@FallenPheonixIV on the level 2 ability I didn't mean 2 additional spells, the class give 2 at each level up, I was saying the 2 the class gives at level up and 1 additional spell from another spell list originally. Or still 2 total per level, 1 from the wizard spell list and 1 from another spell list. Thats what I was meaning.
After looking at what others have done and similar lore/knowledge home-brews i thought this might be a good 2nd level ability along the lines of the original without it going over the top and it goes to the them better I think. it might be too much though, let me know what you think:
After long rest choose damage type from the list fire, cold, lightning, acid or thunder. spells you cast ignore resistance of the selected type until you are incapacitated or your next long rest. Also choose Save type, when a spell you cast you can impose disadvantage on a saving throw of that type once per long rest.
or is basically elemental adept on a stick a bit too good for level 2? I thought it sounds thematically good, knowledge of magic and its effects allow the wizard to make elemental spells more effective against things that resist them. it also encourages planning and scouting of the enemies that he will face. just my thoughts, what do you guys think?
Sorry for the run on posts, @FallenPheonixIV and everyone else how does this all look?
Level 2:
Expertise/double proficiency in arcana and/or investigation checks.
When preparing spells you can change the damage type from fire, cold, lightning, acid and thunder to any of those types. The spell does the selected damage type until it is prepared again or replaced. The same spell can not be prepared more than once with different damage types. Maybe replace known cantrip with one from another list?
Level 6:
No need for spell components or a focus anymore. For spells with times with a specific cost make an ability check with spell casting mod with DC equal to 10 plus the spells level.
Levels 10 and 14 the same as the UA Lore Mastery tradition.
Personally, it should be like a Wizard-y version of the "College of Lore" Bard Subclass