With a party that big, I doubt the Detect legendary action will be coming into play. The action economy vs 7 PCs means I'd be inclined to give him legendary actions to move and attack. Make it 1 legendary action to make 2 attacks, or 1 legendary action to move up to 30ft. and make one attack.
Main thoughts here is that the party could probably deal 190 damage fairly easily in one or two turns. How long do you want the fight to last, and how much damage do you want him to deal? Do you want him to be a tricky boss to defeat, or a slugfest?
I'm trying to think what would make him a good challenge. For sure the Snares, and the beasts. I think I'd maybe give him a few more HP, let him Hide and reposition as a legendary action if in foliage, and call it there. To make him a real tricky one, consider:
Melt Away. Elkhazel takes the Hide action, provided he is in natural cover such as foliage. If successful, he immediately teleports to a new location within 60ft, provided that this new location is entirely within foliage.
That alone could make this a real struggle, with them getting one or two turns before he disappears and has to be found again!
Ok, remember when I said "I'm so using that" about disarming deflection? Well... here it is.
Made a Swordsmaster for my party of 5 level 12's to face, along with a couple of minions. I like his abilities, want to see if you all think he's about balanced!
Lore-wise, my Frost Giants contain a cold light which gives them cold abilities, such as the extra damage and the Conduit of Cold ability. I've a load of them, but this one will be sent out on a specific hunt, rather than being encountered by chance!
I don't really like the idea of punishing players who attack in melee. Those in melee already suffer the most damage and often don't end up contributing as much as the spellcasters.
I don't like the design of this monster in general. Don't get me wrong, I love the lore and flavor, but Spellcasters, while still threatened, have a massive advantage while Martials are specifically targeted. Melee martials already suffer a lot, and spending most of your turns doing nothing but taking cold damage because you missed repeatedly is kind of boring.
But I don't know your group. You may have a group that would deal with this monster very well. But I'm going with an "average" group with no house rules.
I can't think of a party that would find this monster fun to fight. Either they pretty much ignore its abilities, or they suffer greatly from them. It takes a very, very specific party to find an in-between. But if you really think that this is a good idea, I can't really stop you.
(I do think Disarming Deflection is awesome, I just think that it's strong enough without a cold aura and that Stab attack and Formidable Swordsman and Twist the Blade and Mark a Target.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
The fact that it's tougher on melee martials than casters isn't really a bad thing. It's bad when there are systemic disadvantages to certain classes, but when it's on a monster-by-monster basis, it's just called variety. It would be ridiculous to say all undead are poorly designed just because they advantage Cleric, an already strong class, on account of the fact that sometimes it should feel especially rewarding to play the class you're playing. Monsters that are stronger against martials are just the natural corollary to all the monsters with Magic Resistance and similar features.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The fact that it's tougher on melee martials than casters isn't really a bad thing. It's bad when there are systemic disadvantages to certain classes, but when it's on a monster-by-monster basis, it's just called variety. It would be ridiculous to say all undead are poorly designed just because they advantage Cleric, an already strong class, on account of the fact that sometimes it should feel especially rewarding to play the class you're playing. Monsters that are stronger against martials are just the natural corollary to all the monsters with Magic Resistance and similar features.
If it weren't such a pervasive thing in this game, or such an intense and defining trait for this monster, I would agree entirely. The difference between a melee character and literally any other character here is 6 AC, a multiattack or the strongest attack this guy has to offer, an inability to retreat, and an average of 6 free damage against you per round assuming you succeed every save (which it is a CON save, which melee characters should be passing consistently).
If this wasn't clearly designed to be a boss, or melee characters could avoid it, then I think it would be okay. Melee martials could leave other characters to deal with it. But this is a boss, and it has abilities to force players to engage with it in melee if they get too close.
I don't care if it's balanced, which it may or may not be, the idea of having to fight something like this as a melee martial is very upsetting. Imagine being in that situation. You'd have to just sit there, missing far more attacks than the guy who is barely taking any damage, while you can't run away, are suffering 3 huge attacks per round, and have the possibility of being disarmed anyway.
I wouldn't wish that experience on any player. There are just so many abilities here that either don't come into play or just absolutely destroy you depending on whether you chose to play a fighter or a wizard. You can't change your class mid-combat.
And for the record, I think it's cool to throw things at your players that make one or more players feel cool because of their specific abilities that the others don't have (thus your undead example). The other way around, screwing over a player for something they can't really do anything about, is not really any fun, especially if the monster doesn't actually have a defined weakness or anything like that. Magic Resistance is okay because spellcasters are already way stronger than martials in pretty much every facet.
In a vaccum, I think this monster is poorly designed. Nothing on Thoruk, it just needs to be less hyperfocused on destroying melee characters and doing virtually nothing else.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
Against 5 level 12 characters, an encounter with a CR 20 creature is just above the Deadly threshold, and that's based on the 6-ish encounter adventuring day, which isn't necessarily accurate for Thoruk's group. I don't see what makes you think this is "clearly designed to be a boss." It makes perfect sense for inferior swordsmen to feel dwarfed by a master of the craft who also happens to be a giant. I get what you're saying in that I wouldn't want the whole campaign to revolve around fighting this monster ('cause yeah, that'd suck for some classes), but I didn't get the impression that that's the aim.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I designed this monster because my party have two key things which I want to mesh together:
They are a Monk, a Fighter/paladin or Armorer/paladin (1 player with 2 characters in the story), a Barbarian, a Hexblade Warlock, and a Cleric.
They have a lot of magical weapons which they seem to rely on very heavily (so can drop one and still have another!)
They have a clear pattern to their fights, of rushing in and swinging hard.
They love solving puzzles.
I 100% agree that this monster is going to wreck people in Melee, but I by no means think it will be too much for them. the Monk, Warlock, and Fighter can all Fly. The barbarian has 2 magical ranged weapons and a circlet of blasting. The Monk's an Ascendant Dragon monk so can use ranged breath attacks.
I will absolutely telegraph it's prowess, hopefully by starting it off at ranged distances so they can get a hit or two at ranged, and then when they close to melee, suddenly that 18 doesn't hit, and they realise then that they need to keep away from this thing!
So far as having no obvious weaknesses, anything non-melee would qualify, I think. Flying definitely will cause this guy issues.
I am curious on the concern over this screwing martials, as martials include ranged weapons, and things like Ghosts and Werewolves exist who are immune to nonmagical damage, which Martials rely on the DM to get for the most part!
As for balance, the encounter is meant to be dangerous. It is intended as the transition from "you are a nuisance" to "the giants want you dead, right now".
I designed this monster because my party have two key things which I want to mesh together:
They are a Monk, a Fighter/paladin or Armorer/paladin (1 player with 2 characters in the story), a Barbarian, a Hexblade Warlock, and a Cleric.
They have a lot of magical weapons which they seem to rely on very heavily (so can drop one and still have another!)
They have a clear pattern to their fights, of rushing in and swinging hard.
They love solving puzzles.
I 100% agree that this monster is going to wreck people in Melee, but I by no means think it will be too much for them. the Monk, Warlock, and Fighter can all Fly. The barbarian has 2 magical ranged weapons and a circlet of blasting. The Monk's an Ascendant Dragon monk so can use ranged breath attacks.
I will absolutely telegraph it's prowess, hopefully by starting it off at ranged distances so they can get a hit or two at ranged, and then when they close to melee, suddenly that 18 doesn't hit, and they realise then that they need to keep away from this thing!
So far as having no obvious weaknesses, anything non-melee would qualify, I think. Flying definitely will cause this guy issues.
I am curious on the concern over this screwing martials, as martials include ranged weapons, and things like Ghosts and Werewolves exist who are immune to nonmagical damage, which Martials rely on the DM to get for the most part.
As for balance, the encounter is meant to be dangerous. It is intended as the transition from "you are a nuisance" to "the giants want you dead, right now".
I apologize. I had no idea what the party was like, and thus I couldn't gauge how well it would work against your group.
Most melee martials aren't really effective outside of melee range, so I was going off the assumption that this was the case with your party.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
Against 5 level 12 characters, an encounter with a CR 20 creature is just above the Deadly threshold, and that's based on the 6-ish encounter adventuring day, which isn't necessarily accurate for Thoruk's group. I don't see what makes you think this is "clearly designed to be a boss." It makes perfect sense for inferior swordsmen to feel dwarfed by a master of the craft who also happens to be a giant. I get what you're saying in that I wouldn't want the whole campaign to revolve around fighting this monster ('cause yeah, that'd suck for some classes), but I didn't get the impression that that's the aim.
I don't really feel about arguing about this anymore, but I will say that it has legendary actions, resistances, and Thoruk openly said he was intending to use it as a boss.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
I designed this monster because my party have two key things which I want to mesh together:
They are a Monk, a Fighter/paladin or Armorer/paladin (1 player with 2 characters in the story), a Barbarian, a Hexblade Warlock, and a Cleric.
They have a lot of magical weapons which they seem to rely on very heavily (so can drop one and still have another!)
They have a clear pattern to their fights, of rushing in and swinging hard.
They love solving puzzles.
I 100% agree that this monster is going to wreck people in Melee, but I by no means think it will be too much for them. the Monk, Warlock, and Fighter can all Fly. The barbarian has 2 magical ranged weapons and a circlet of blasting. The Monk's an Ascendant Dragon monk so can use ranged breath attacks.
I will absolutely telegraph it's prowess, hopefully by starting it off at ranged distances so they can get a hit or two at ranged, and then when they close to melee, suddenly that 18 doesn't hit, and they realise then that they need to keep away from this thing!
So far as having no obvious weaknesses, anything non-melee would qualify, I think. Flying definitely will cause this guy issues.
I am curious on the concern over this screwing martials, as martials include ranged weapons, and things like Ghosts and Werewolves exist who are immune to nonmagical damage, which Martials rely on the DM to get for the most part.
As for balance, the encounter is meant to be dangerous. It is intended as the transition from "you are a nuisance" to "the giants want you dead, right now".
I apologize. I had no idea what the party was like, and thus I couldn't gauge how well it would work against your group.
Most melee martials aren't really effective outside of melee range, so I was going off the assumption that this was the case with your party.
Apology not needed, your advice was good for if I wanted to use this for more generic oneshots where the party would be unknown! I will definitely be minfdul of this if I ever do so - likely giving them environmental stuff to use if they are otherwise scuppered!
Against 5 level 12 characters, an encounter with a CR 20 creature is just above the Deadly threshold, and that's based on the 6-ish encounter adventuring day, which isn't necessarily accurate for Thoruk's group. I don't see what makes you think this is "clearly designed to be a boss." It makes perfect sense for inferior swordsmen to feel dwarfed by a master of the craft who also happens to be a giant. I get what you're saying in that I wouldn't want the whole campaign to revolve around fighting this monster ('cause yeah, that'd suck for some classes), but I didn't get the impression that that's the aim.
I don't really feel about arguing about this anymore, but I will say that it has legendary actions, resistances, and Thoruk openly said he was intending to use it as a boss.
The monster is the main enemy of the encounter, yes, but it's just one encounter, and it's not the most important one of the game or anything. I don't see why some characters having an advantage in a single encounter would be so horrible.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
There is literally no point to this monster existing.
It is actually unusable, has inconsistent flavor, and is both derivative and fails to capture what made the original interesting. Putting every number in the statblock as "infinity" doesn't make it fun or interesting, it just makes it pointless to even include. This is genuinely worse than anything I've made, and that's saying something.
I can foresee no situation where this monster should exist in a campaign. If you really want to screw over your players this much, talk to them out of game.
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Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
Alright, I like it! Thank you!
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
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Extended Signature
Ok, remember when I said "I'm so using that" about disarming deflection? Well... here it is.
Made a Swordsmaster for my party of 5 level 12's to face, along with a couple of minions. I like his abilities, want to see if you all think he's about balanced!
Lore-wise, my Frost Giants contain a cold light which gives them cold abilities, such as the extra damage and the Conduit of Cold ability. I've a load of them, but this one will be sent out on a specific hunt, rather than being encountered by chance!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I don't really like the idea of punishing players who attack in melee. Those in melee already suffer the most damage and often don't end up contributing as much as the spellcasters.
I don't like the design of this monster in general. Don't get me wrong, I love the lore and flavor, but Spellcasters, while still threatened, have a massive advantage while Martials are specifically targeted. Melee martials already suffer a lot, and spending most of your turns doing nothing but taking cold damage because you missed repeatedly is kind of boring.
But I don't know your group. You may have a group that would deal with this monster very well. But I'm going with an "average" group with no house rules.
I can't think of a party that would find this monster fun to fight. Either they pretty much ignore its abilities, or they suffer greatly from them. It takes a very, very specific party to find an in-between. But if you really think that this is a good idea, I can't really stop you.
(I do think Disarming Deflection is awesome, I just think that it's strong enough without a cold aura and that Stab attack and Formidable Swordsman and Twist the Blade and Mark a Target.)
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
The fact that it's tougher on melee martials than casters isn't really a bad thing. It's bad when there are systemic disadvantages to certain classes, but when it's on a monster-by-monster basis, it's just called variety. It would be ridiculous to say all undead are poorly designed just because they advantage Cleric, an already strong class, on account of the fact that sometimes it should feel especially rewarding to play the class you're playing. Monsters that are stronger against martials are just the natural corollary to all the monsters with Magic Resistance and similar features.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
If it weren't such a pervasive thing in this game, or such an intense and defining trait for this monster, I would agree entirely. The difference between a melee character and literally any other character here is 6 AC, a multiattack or the strongest attack this guy has to offer, an inability to retreat, and an average of 6 free damage against you per round assuming you succeed every save (which it is a CON save, which melee characters should be passing consistently).
If this wasn't clearly designed to be a boss, or melee characters could avoid it, then I think it would be okay. Melee martials could leave other characters to deal with it. But this is a boss, and it has abilities to force players to engage with it in melee if they get too close.
I don't care if it's balanced, which it may or may not be, the idea of having to fight something like this as a melee martial is very upsetting. Imagine being in that situation. You'd have to just sit there, missing far more attacks than the guy who is barely taking any damage, while you can't run away, are suffering 3 huge attacks per round, and have the possibility of being disarmed anyway.
I wouldn't wish that experience on any player. There are just so many abilities here that either don't come into play or just absolutely destroy you depending on whether you chose to play a fighter or a wizard. You can't change your class mid-combat.
And for the record, I think it's cool to throw things at your players that make one or more players feel cool because of their specific abilities that the others don't have (thus your undead example). The other way around, screwing over a player for something they can't really do anything about, is not really any fun, especially if the monster doesn't actually have a defined weakness or anything like that. Magic Resistance is okay because spellcasters are already way stronger than martials in pretty much every facet.
In a vaccum, I think this monster is poorly designed. Nothing on Thoruk, it just needs to be less hyperfocused on destroying melee characters and doing virtually nothing else.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
Against 5 level 12 characters, an encounter with a CR 20 creature is just above the Deadly threshold, and that's based on the 6-ish encounter adventuring day, which isn't necessarily accurate for Thoruk's group. I don't see what makes you think this is "clearly designed to be a boss." It makes perfect sense for inferior swordsmen to feel dwarfed by a master of the craft who also happens to be a giant. I get what you're saying in that I wouldn't want the whole campaign to revolve around fighting this monster ('cause yeah, that'd suck for some classes), but I didn't get the impression that that's the aim.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Hey all!
Thanks for the feedback and discussion!
I designed this monster because my party have two key things which I want to mesh together:
I 100% agree that this monster is going to wreck people in Melee, but I by no means think it will be too much for them. the Monk, Warlock, and Fighter can all Fly. The barbarian has 2 magical ranged weapons and a circlet of blasting. The Monk's an Ascendant Dragon monk so can use ranged breath attacks.
I will absolutely telegraph it's prowess, hopefully by starting it off at ranged distances so they can get a hit or two at ranged, and then when they close to melee, suddenly that 18 doesn't hit, and they realise then that they need to keep away from this thing!
So far as having no obvious weaknesses, anything non-melee would qualify, I think. Flying definitely will cause this guy issues.
I am curious on the concern over this screwing martials, as martials include ranged weapons, and things like Ghosts and Werewolves exist who are immune to nonmagical damage, which Martials rely on the DM to get for the most part!
As for balance, the encounter is meant to be dangerous. It is intended as the transition from "you are a nuisance" to "the giants want you dead, right now".
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I apologize. I had no idea what the party was like, and thus I couldn't gauge how well it would work against your group.
Most melee martials aren't really effective outside of melee range, so I was going off the assumption that this was the case with your party.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
I don't really feel about arguing about this anymore, but I will say that it has legendary actions, resistances, and Thoruk openly said he was intending to use it as a boss.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
Apology not needed, your advice was good for if I wanted to use this for more generic oneshots where the party would be unknown! I will definitely be minfdul of this if I ever do so - likely giving them environmental stuff to use if they are otherwise scuppered!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
The monster is the main enemy of the encounter, yes, but it's just one encounter, and it's not the most important one of the game or anything. I don't see why some characters having an advantage in a single encounter would be so horrible.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
my homebrew is unstoppable
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Commander of Demise, Fear me ye Mortals! Life's Bane
...if you want him to be this powerful, you shouldn't try to give him a statblock.
MilestoGo_24's alt.
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Wait. Actually, be very afraid.
But can you stop him?
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Commander of Demise, Fear me ye Mortals! Life's Bane
Your DM can stop you.
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There is literally no point to this monster existing.
It is actually unusable, has inconsistent flavor, and is both derivative and fails to capture what made the original interesting. Putting every number in the statblock as "infinity" doesn't make it fun or interesting, it just makes it pointless to even include. This is genuinely worse than anything I've made, and that's saying something.
I can foresee no situation where this monster should exist in a campaign. If you really want to screw over your players this much, talk to them out of game.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
May each word that I speak be backed by each of my teeth.
the dm cannot stop it, as it IS the dm
-Yours Truly, The King Of Demons
🍅 PM me the word 'tomato' 🍅
🧀PM me the word 'cheese'🧀
Commander of Demise, Fear me ye Mortals! Life's Bane
That doesn’t really make sense, though.
Terra Lubridia archive:
The Bloody Barnacle | The Gut | The Athene Crusader | The Jewel of Atlantis
I don't give a
-Yours Truly, The King Of Demons
🍅 PM me the word 'tomato' 🍅
🧀PM me the word 'cheese'🧀
Commander of Demise, Fear me ye Mortals! Life's Bane
****
-Yours Truly, The King Of Demons
🍅 PM me the word 'tomato' 🍅
🧀PM me the word 'cheese'🧀
Commander of Demise, Fear me ye Mortals! Life's Bane