So I have had some not great experiences lately in other parts of the internet.  It's made me appreciate this forum.  And honestly I don't think this really has much to do with D&D, but with how the internet has changed recently.  People just seem to accept how some central figure or group goes about doing something and develops this tribal mentality against everyone else.  It seemed like a few years ago people had more of an individual perspective on things.

I started a comment debate in a Youtube page about how I thought it was weird so many public games were starting players off at level 3 and that was starting to become the "norm" among some DMs even with brand new players.  The comments were youtube comments and typically vile and so I tried starting that conversation in Reddit and Facebook as well.  The reddit post was a waste of time.  The comments were way better in Facebook but still there were so many people who didn't have any sort of good argument for starting off new players at level 3.  They were just incredibly obstinate against a basic concept of the game that new players should start out at level 1.

My thread here about starting characters off at level 1 instead of 3 was received way better than those other places and people had actual REASONS for why they run their games the way they do.  And the vast majority of people understood that having brand new players start a low level session was good even though that might be extra work for the DM and perhaps even focusing on "player fun" instead of "DM fun".  Plus DMs here seem to understand the concept of a player never playing a tabletop RPG before.  In other places apparently "new player" meant someone who was already immersed in how to play an RPG.  (which is a whole other topic I might rant about, how the heck is anyone supposed to grow the hobby with attitudes like that?)

And these weird attitudes really bother me since some people are taking the lead of a very few people in the online community who really champion their own method of gaming as "The best way to do D&D".  It's practically a cult.

For an example there was this one DM trying to implement homebrew rules that one online figure puts out there as "the best way to do D&D".  And then when a player in that game has a really bad time they go to reddit and ask for advice.  And the people on that subreddit tell this person (and their DM) to go listen to this one person who knows "the best way to do D&D".  And only a very few reddit users noted that the initial issue came from "the best way to do D&D"  homebrew.  I saw this happen multiple times after trying to use reddit for D&D stuff for a few weeks.  Imagine the frustration of this new player to be told that the DM was doing things "correctly" and to go research "the best way to do D&D".

I think having an official forum is GREAT for the community.

The weird little factions of people who adhere to strange ways of doing things for no logical reason probably aren't going to be able to push their "IDEAL GAME" in an environment with so many perspectives and so much combined experience.

There is no "best way to play D&D".  Just because an person is popular on certain areas of the internet and tells DMs to use a certain style of homebrew doesn't mean everyone should bend a knee and there is no place for any other sort of DM.

I consider the best approach to D&D is to maximize the players engagement in the game and not be a navel gazing DM who is only entertaining themselves.

I am already well know as being "a negative person" for putting out my own ideas online which is insane considering what a tiny audience I have.  I only put a different perspective out there and champion running a vanilla game of 5E for new players and DMs.  Because I honestly think vanilla D&D 5E is one of the best RPGs for new players to start out with.  I don't think new players should have to deal with homebrew for their first few sessions.  Other than that I do videos about cheap miniatures.  Believe or not that is enough to be branded as a "negative person".

The internet is big enough for different perspectives.  Be wary of people who try to dismiss you for having one.

-Blandco

Totally agreed. I felt the same about a different argument which I will not mention here to offend not this beutiful forum.

Great analysis.

Yeah I needed to rant.

I think this forum has too much collected experience to fall into the traps other places have.

So I am not going to mention any specific names or internet locals, there is no need to.

That's the internet for you - it's a big place full of many different people.  Unfortunately a few of those people feel like their opinion is the only one that matters, and if you don't share it, they're going to let you know just why you're wrong.  It can lead to whole communities shunning everything but their own established 'norm'.  It's not so different to real life, really, but the anonymity given online is a catalyst.

The truth is there is no 'best way' to D&D, or anything else much.  Every player is different, every DM is different, every group is different.  Live and let live.  Be constructive, not destructive.  Make love, not war.

I'm glad you've enjoyed these forums so far, let's hope they stay awesome.

So far, I agree. I'm finding the quality of discussions here to be above average. I hope the Moderators can keep it that way. 

I find EN World to be good, though the amount of activity there can be overwhelming. 

As for the topic of what level to start characters out at, I can't understand why THAT would be a topic to create such strong feelings. I guess some people will find any excuse to berate, browbeat, and bully others to "win" a conversation. 

As for the that topic, I'm with you. I think 1st through 3rd are some of the most fun levels to play and help build your character's foundation. 

A while back a friend of mine led a "zero-level" adventure using the Dungeon Crawl Classics system. It was so much fun and I've been thinking about ways to bring that concept to D&D 5e. In the DCC game, each player gets four characters. We had three players, so 12 characters. A member of our village disappeared when he discovered an ancient entrance to some old Dwarven ruins. You are just farmers, and carpenters, and brewers, and such. You do not have the skills and tools of adventurers. This is your pre-hero story. You are given four characters because your character will die and there will be no resurrection for them. 

It is old-school, proceed with great caution, bring a large party, and manage resources game.  It seems like that would be a fun way to determine what your main character will be. Have each player have multiple "zero-level" characters, of those that survive, chose your favorite to continue the campaign with. 

I love the idea of low level dungeon crawls.  And 5E is not only great at vanilla stuff but after you get a hang of it you can do some very interesting stuff.

I was able to create a dungeon crawl for a gaming convention using 5E to create some very low level monster characters.  For PCs there was a faerie dragon, an owlbear hatchling, a bucket mimic and a slime.  All based on CR 1 creatures.  It was a really fun session.  If I had created that crawl after Volos came out I could have created something with more structure.

And it's always fun to play a session with new players and have them figure out their character.

There is definitely no best way to play DnD, unless your 'best way' is 'everyone has fun.' I think I responded this way in your Thread about starting level, but I'll just say it here again: starting at level 1 is great for a group with new players in it, because it allows them to learn how the game is played. If your group is full of veteran legacy players who all agree to start off at level 3, do it. Level 1 is level 1 for a reason.

A well moderated forum is the best place on the internet to talk about anything, really. Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Blog comments, etc. are what I refer to as "drive-by internet". People just pop in, take some pot shots, and drive off with few, if any, consequences. If anything, they revel in the extra attention. That environment is a bully's playground that tends to run off more thoughtful and reasonable people. It also promotes a few hard-headed cliques that leave little room for finding any middle ground.

Poorly moderated forums can be just as bad though. A forum I frequented for years was systematically emptied out by one "his way or no way" bully that never quite broke the rules, but lived right behind them and the moderators wouldn't do anything.

Quote from Pterias >>

 A forum I frequented for years was systematically emptied out by one "his way or no way" bully that never quite broke the rules, but lived right behind them and the moderators wouldn't do anything.

Quote from Sedge >>

Quote from Pterias >>

 A forum I frequented for years was systematically emptied out by one "his way or no way" bully that never quite broke the rules, but lived right behind them and the moderators wouldn't do anything.

 Oh man, I'll bust a guy just for posting after curfew.  BAM!

RE Initial Rant: While my preference is to skip the first couple levels, mostly so that everyone can have neat toys to play with from their sub-classes, but also so that they feel like heroes from the word go. I however, wouldn't begrudge another table that always wants to start at 1st level (or lower in the case of 0th-level characters).

Oh my, I just got an idea of how to handle those! Use the NPC statblock modified by the character's race for a Commoner or any of the following NPC types Acolyte, Apprentice Wizard (Volo's), Bandit, Guard, Noble, or Tribal Warrior. That should cover most character concepts without being too broken.

This form has turned into what Wizards originally had going.  A collection of diverse people coming together so share ideas and support those trying to learn the game which we all know can be a daunting experience.

No one is bashed because they have a hill giant character even thought the RAW might say otherwise.  It's a game of imagination and adventure and just because you don't do this or that is doesn't make it wrong.  I really think the Homebrew content will be amazing in the future.  This is a game that is only limited by our own creative thoughts.   There are deep Gothic worlds and plenty of adaptations from TV shows, movies and books.  It's absolutely amazing what others have done, and even more so by the support and help these member receive by the others in this community.   

Looking forward to the future.

JT

So far I like the forums here.  Lots of good discussions that all seems to be positive.  Unless I have just not stumbled across the negative stuff.  I think that most of the people here that are active get that this is a work in process.  That there are going to be some growing pains.  That it seems that feed back is actually being taken seriously and can possibly result in some great things.

Other than here there is a closed group on facebook that I have had a lot of positive interactions with.  One part sounding board multiple parts online resources for where to go find really cool stuff that DnD players are making.  Be it art or homebrew stuff.  I have gotten a lot of wonderful feedback from that group.

I am liking this place as well. Though I like EnWorld as well. 

I know exactly how you feel Blandco. I'm glad this forum is full of more reasonable adults. At least for the time being. I'm sure after the next phase or two we will get some of those "less mature" people. But for now I am quite happy with the community we are helping to build here.

Not just adults, may I add! 

I think one thing that is good about this forum is that unlike the rest of the internet, it's kind of DnD exclusive. It makes it a more welcoming place!

Well, I think it makes total sense to start characters at level three because many classes are given weak options at levels one and sometimes two to balance out multiclassing, and many times core class mechanics don't kick in until level two or three because of this (weapon specializations for martial classes being and obvious one). And from a role-play stand point it makes sense when developing back stories to start after everyone has chosen their sub-class path.

But on topic, yes - generally with specialized forums like this tend to have more civil discourse then more popular, more casual forums like Reddit or Facebook.

Few things to add besides I agree!

First, I found an article on Angry GM recently that explains this better than I could

http://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/

Two key things is everybody likes something different and sometimes these are incomparable. 

My take. I always try to say there are many valid ways to play, but some don't interest me. By definition, people that think their way is best or only way are probably not worth wasting time talking to. They know everything and cannot consider they really don't have the exclusive truth... 

I like games when the players and dm have a social contract on how the campaign will run.  I don't like min/Max, stealing from the party, party pvp, etc.  I am careful to say this can be a valid way to play, but I won't waste time there.  

That said (or maybe ranted), I enjoy these forums and avoid others. It is civil, more "well, you might consider.." and less "that's stupid.". 

Be warned, Gamestores can be like forums.  Find one that had groups of players that are like you!