Hey guys, so I was wondering if anyone had input on this. I am creating a campaign that centers largely around doors, and one of the places is a labrynth centering largely around puzzles. One of my players is including the spell "knock" in his spell list, and though for the MOST part that is not a problem, it would seem it's a fix all, open all spell, and I would really prefer to have the option to keep things locked unless they are properly opened. It'd only be essential for a few things, namely puzzles I want to include, such as a three key lock puzzle. Is there anyone who knows if there is a way to block to this spell from working on specific things without frusterating the player? I thought maybe that the spell wouldnt work for the labrynth puzzles(the only main issue I have been finding) because it is created by a minor god of puzzles, and he has put his protection on the puzzles? It's not a major, story killing issue, but it'd remove the "umph" from a lot of things I'm doing, which would be a little disappointing. I'm not too sure, but I'd appreciate some imput!
"When you cast the spell, a loud knock, audible from as far away as 300 feet, emanates from the target object." - If the party can plainly hear an enemy making loud noises on the other side of the door, they might not want their enemy to hear them coming (and even the silence spell won't help).
Perhaps the locks are 'Arcane Lock'ed (which Knock only suppresses for 10 minutes) and the maze solution eventually requires several trips through them.
Make it a nine key lock puzzle, and put three keys in each location that would normally have only one.
Keep in mind that Knock requires a spell-slot, so unless your player is willing to blow every slot they have on bypassing doors (which would be a terrible idea, unless you're throwing nothing but locks at them) they won't be using it constantly. Let them have their moment to shine if they have to spend their limited resource on it, imo...
I thought maybe that the spell wouldn't work for the labyrinth puzzles(the only main issue I have been finding) because it is created by a minor god of puzzles, and he has put his protection on the puzzles?
Sounds reasonable. I'm not sure whether or not you want to do it--knock is such a situational spell already--but it sounds reasonable.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I dont mind giving the player their moment for pretty much every other thing, it is just the three key lock that disappoints me. I have actually purchased the puzzle and I wanted to put it on an actual treasure box and supply them with keys and hints periodically ending in something really big and awesome or even a major story peice, but will the knock spell just disregard that and have me open the box for them? It's one lock tecnically, but with four parts to opening it. I was excited about the puzzle and mystery about it extending over several games, so I have to admit that this specific one makes me sad to give up. I dont really see the props for this working if a spell like knock is involved though...
Keep in mind that Knock requires a spell-slot, so unless your player is willing to blow every slot they have on bypassing doors (which would be a terrible idea, unless you're throwing nothing but locks at them) they won't be using it constantly. Let them have their moment to shine if they have to spend their limited resource on it, imo...
This.
It's usually not nice when players pick or get abilities which are rendered useless because the DM doesn't like them, or doesn't want to deal with them, or something like that. If the Knock spell will ruin your adventure, disallow it to begin with. If the player already has it, ask him to change it, or redesign your adventure so that a single spell won't ruin it. No Rogues in the party, too? Won't Thieves' Tools break it, too? Redesigning doesn't have to be a complete re-write. Have each door have 3 locks instead of one. That's three spells per door. The caster is sure likely to run out of spell slots fast.
Keep in mind that Knock requires a spell-slot, so unless your player is willing to blow every slot they have on bypassing doors (which would be a terrible idea, unless you're throwing nothing but locks at them) they won't be using it constantly. Let them have their moment to shine if they have to spend their limited resource on it, imo...
This.
It's usually not nice when players pick or get abilities which are rendered useless because the DM doesn't like them, or doesn't want to deal with them, or something like that. If the Knock spell will ruin your adventure, disallow it to begin with. If the player already has it, ask him to change it, or redesign your adventure so that a single spell won't ruin it. No Rogues in the party, too? Won't Thieves' Tools break it, too? Redesigning doesn't have to be a complete re-write. Have each door have 3 locks instead of one. That's three spells per door. The caster is sure likely to run out of spell slots fast.
I am sorry if my tone implied that I want to render an ability useless Tonio, as that is not what I was aiming for. I wanted to keep freedom for the players but I was hoping to a solution that might allow me to keep the prop I have described above. Theives tools really wouldn't work for this lock, as it has several VERY unsual keys. I have already purchased the padlock and was hoping to use it in this adventure. I'd rather just suck it up and not use it if it would be severely limiting the player though, however disappointing it would be. I was just asking if anyone had any reasonable ways of allowing me to keep it in the game, as I am a newer DM and am not as familiar with the rules. From what everyone is saying though, it would seem that I will have to cut it out of the story, which is deeply disappointing, admittedly. I do know my players very well, and they would have been excited to find the keys and get the reward eventually.
There's one very easy solution - say that an antimagic field is in effect on this particular door. You could make its presence obvious - perhaps this puzzle god inscribed runes around it, or perhaps some nearby magical effect that is visible throughout the room halts suddenly near the door. That way your player may not waste a spellslot on it.
I suggest making sure a few loot chests and ordinary unblocked doors exist, enough to justify the player taking the knock spell.
You could also make some 'doors' without actual locks. They could be rotating walls that are triggered/made obvious when a puzzle is completed, or great gates that rise/fall depending on the success/failure of a puzzle. That way you can keep your puzzles and labyrinth without denying the player with doors that should otherwise open with his spell. Bonus points if you make a possible way to solve a puzzle like that to use knock on something else.
If its a maze based on puzzles linked to doors, made by a god, then I think it's fine to work around the knock spell like this. A god could very feasibly work around a level 2 spell.
I don't know what level he is, but if he has four level 2 spellslots, that would be four whole puzzles bypassed. Sure, it's four spellslots, but how many spells would it have taken the party overall? More than one level 2 spellslot per puzzle on average? Personally, if I were a player, I'm not sure I'd actually want to skip all that content my DM prepared with my instant-cast spell.
Lastly, and as mentioned by others, perhaps talk to the player. Did he pick that spell because you told him it would be a labyrinth with doors? If so, tell him it's not going to work on every door and give him the chance to change it. See how he feels about it.
Good luck! This sounds like a fun scenario you're creating.
If it's a three-lock puzzle, and the locks are arcane-locked, the player would have to burn three 2nd-level spell slots in a row to open the puzzle. Are they high enough level where they would/could do that?
I vote for antimagic field too. It's a God you're playing against so the maze can contain whatever nonsense you like. Make the entire room which contains this climactic lock filled with an obvious field of strangeness. First the little magic lantern they found and used in an earlier puzzle suddenly goes out and no spells or magic objects work (an antimagic field). Then they feel their minds and bodies are sluggish and everything they try to do there is difficult (disadvantage on all skills and attacks). Finally the lock and door themselves are fiendishly complex and strong (DC 30 to pick or break, 25 to make up for missing one key with your thieves tools), and punish a failed pick attempt with magical damage feedback from the field to dissuade trying to brute force the door (perhaps a simple Arcana or Investigation check would warm them about the dangerous feedback). Add some more effects if that still feels too easy to break. None of the effects of this field will make it hard to open this door if they actually have the keys, but almost impossible without them. And frankly, if the adventurers find a way past all that without the keys then they absolutely deserve their victory.
I will also urge towards not dismissing character options that the players made the conscious choice of getting. Doubly so if it was an informed decision (such as "we're going to the dreaded Locked Labyrinth of a Thousand Doors, better prepare Knock and get an extra lockpick for our rogue").
If you must have a way to prevent the group from bypassing the entire dungeon by a well placed lock, there are other ways to block passage, such as a seven-ton door that can only be raised when all three waterwheels are turning, or a Living Door that just doesn't open until it hears the password hidden in the labyrinth, or, if you want to be lazy about it, a magical door that the wizard can tell at a glance is immune to Knock. Also known as the "Requires Key" kind of door you find in most RPGs.
I'd still let Knock work in the majority of actual locks in there, though. Especially if you have a lot of them, it's just a limited resource that the players need to juggle as with everything else they have.
There's one very easy solution - say that an antimagic field is in effect on this particular door. You could make its presence obvious - perhaps this puzzle god inscribed runes around it, or perhaps some nearby magical effect that is visible throughout the room halts suddenly near the door. That way your player may not waste a spellslot on it.
I suggest making sure a few loot chests and ordinary unblocked doors exist, enough to justify the player taking the knock spell.
You could also make some 'doors' without actual locks. They could be rotating walls that are triggered/made obvious when a puzzle is completed, or great gates that rise/fall depending on the success/failure of a puzzle. That way you can keep your puzzles and labyrinth without denying the player with doors that should otherwise open with his spell. Bonus points if you make a possible way to solve a puzzle like that to use knock on something else.
If its a maze based on puzzles linked to doors, made by a god, then I think it's fine to work around the knock spell like this. A god could very feasibly work around a level 2 spell.
I don't know what level he is, but if he has four level 2 spellslots, that would be four whole puzzles bypassed. Sure, it's four spellslots, but how many spells would it have taken the party overall? More than one level 2 spellslot per puzzle on average? Personally, if I were a player, I'm not sure I'd actually want to skip all that content my DM prepared with my instant-cast spell.
Lastly, and as mentioned by others, perhaps talk to the player. Did he pick that spell because you told him it would be a labyrinth with doors? If so, tell him it's not going to work on every door and give him the chance to change it. See how he feels about it.
Good luck! This sounds like a fun scenario you're creating.
Oh my goodness Villain Theory, this might be the right answer! Do you know if I could do something to attach this to the chest I mentioned in above comments? I dont really care about the doors, because I have more than enough puzzles and they are low level enough he probably wont burn spells without a reason, but the chest was a prop I DESPERATELY would love to figure out! They are all really encouraging players to DM for, so they wont argue with a decision I make, but I wanted a good enough reason. THANKYOU!!!!!
I will also urge towards not dismissing character options that the players made the conscious choice of getting. Doubly so if it was an informed decision (such as "we're going to the dreaded Locked Labyrinth of a Thousand Doors, better prepare Knock and get an extra lockpick for our rogue").
If you must have a way to prevent the group from bypassing the entire dungeon by a well placed lock, there are other ways to block passage, such as a seven-ton door that can only be raised when all three waterwheels are turning, or a Living Door that just doesn't open until it hears the password hidden in the labyrinth, or, if you want to be lazy about it, a magical door that the wizard can tell at a glance is immune to Knock. Also known as the "Requires Key" kind of door you find in most RPGs.
I'd still let Knock work in the majority of actual locks in there, though. Especially if you have a lot of them, it's just a limited resource that the players need to juggle as with everything else they have.
First of all, Onyx, thankyou for verbalising your concerns so kindly. I realise now the way I described things may have made it sound like I wanted to discount the spell, when the oposite is true. I just wanted to figure out how to make the prop chest without having it easily circumvented. The three key lock is so awesome, I would be sad if I wasn't able to use it. I didn't know there would be such a thing as "knock proof" and I didnt want to be lazy, but I love the idea of presenting a mysterious chest to players, and then having them recieve the three keys for it in fun ways, and then open the chest to find something game changing! Everything else is fine, and if they skip a few doors magically then it will add to the story( the god will probably have something to say about that. lol!) , but even with three keys, the puzzle lock I bought is still only one lock and it makes sense to me knock would work on all three parts to it at once for one spell. Kinda takes the kick out of the whole prop and puzzle. Thanks for the imput!
If it's a three-lock puzzle, and the locks are arcane-locked, the player would have to burn three 2nd-level spell slots in a row to open the puzzle. Are they high enough level where they would/could do that?
Generic_ Poster, It is actually one lock, three keys, four parts, and no matter how I think about it, I dont think it'd be fair to have the knock spell only work for one part. Lock mechanisms are complicated in themselves, and adding to that shouldn't change the spell in my mind. And I dont have enough money to buy more, or else I'd have done so by now(they are so cool!). That's why I was struggling so hard with it.
The spell itself is usually centered on a high level spellcaster (who casts it), but it can also be a standalone effect centered on specific locations. I don't want to spoil any adventures for people, but at least two official adventures have permanent antimagic fields centered on buildings/rooms. It's a very powerful spell but even a minor god could have access to it, especially in a place he created. It could definitely be placed over a chest, or any other object within reason.
Just keep in mind that, if you keep magic loot within the chest, its magical effects will be suppressed until a player removes the item from the antimagic field. The loot might not even seem magical until they do so. Of course, you could also say the antimagic effect is dispelled when the chest is first opened.
Oh wonderful! Thankyou so much Villain Theory! I was so sad when I thought I couldn't use the prop and plans I have for it! It sounds like exactly the sort of trick a god of puzzles and self growth would play too! Thankyou also for the reminder of the magical suppression. It's deffinately something I'll need to keep noted down, and though my players are encouraging and forgiving, I really want to a good job at DMing. I deeply appreciate the help!
My DM did something similar with us 2 weeks ago. He just made the chest a magic item that Knock and Dispel Magic won’t work on. It was only one box, not even a chest, and we didn’t get upset. We don’t know, or care, what his justification is because there is a way for us to open it.
Hey guys, so I was wondering if anyone had input on this. I am creating a campaign that centers largely around doors, and one of the places is a labrynth centering largely around puzzles. One of my players is including the spell "knock" in his spell list, and though for the MOST part that is not a problem, it would seem it's a fix all, open all spell, and I would really prefer to have the option to keep things locked unless they are properly opened. It'd only be essential for a few things, namely puzzles I want to include, such as a three key lock puzzle. Is there anyone who knows if there is a way to block to this spell from working on specific things without frusterating the player? I thought maybe that the spell wouldnt work for the labrynth puzzles(the only main issue I have been finding) because it is created by a minor god of puzzles, and he has put his protection on the puzzles? It's not a major, story killing issue, but it'd remove the "umph" from a lot of things I'm doing, which would be a little disappointing. I'm not too sure, but I'd appreciate some imput!
kuregarose3
Some possible options:
Keep in mind that Knock requires a spell-slot, so unless your player is willing to blow every slot they have on bypassing doors (which would be a terrible idea, unless you're throwing nothing but locks at them) they won't be using it constantly. Let them have their moment to shine if they have to spend their limited resource on it, imo...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I dont mind giving the player their moment for pretty much every other thing, it is just the three key lock that disappoints me. I have actually purchased the puzzle and I wanted to put it on an actual treasure box and supply them with keys and hints periodically ending in something really big and awesome or even a major story peice, but will the knock spell just disregard that and have me open the box for them? It's one lock tecnically, but with four parts to opening it. I was excited about the puzzle and mystery about it extending over several games, so I have to admit that this specific one makes me sad to give up. I dont really see the props for this working if a spell like knock is involved though...
https://www.puzzlemaster.ca/browse/wire/locks/10606-3-key-puzzle-lock-with-silver-design
That link shows a similar puzzle to the one I purchased.
There's one very easy solution - say that an antimagic field is in effect on this particular door. You could make its presence obvious - perhaps this puzzle god inscribed runes around it, or perhaps some nearby magical effect that is visible throughout the room halts suddenly near the door. That way your player may not waste a spellslot on it.
I suggest making sure a few loot chests and ordinary unblocked doors exist, enough to justify the player taking the knock spell.
You could also make some 'doors' without actual locks. They could be rotating walls that are triggered/made obvious when a puzzle is completed, or great gates that rise/fall depending on the success/failure of a puzzle. That way you can keep your puzzles and labyrinth without denying the player with doors that should otherwise open with his spell. Bonus points if you make a possible way to solve a puzzle like that to use knock on something else.
If its a maze based on puzzles linked to doors, made by a god, then I think it's fine to work around the knock spell like this. A god could very feasibly work around a level 2 spell.
I don't know what level he is, but if he has four level 2 spellslots, that would be four whole puzzles bypassed. Sure, it's four spellslots, but how many spells would it have taken the party overall? More than one level 2 spellslot per puzzle on average? Personally, if I were a player, I'm not sure I'd actually want to skip all that content my DM prepared with my instant-cast spell.
Lastly, and as mentioned by others, perhaps talk to the player. Did he pick that spell because you told him it would be a labyrinth with doors? If so, tell him it's not going to work on every door and give him the chance to change it. See how he feels about it.
Good luck! This sounds like a fun scenario you're creating.
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If it's a three-lock puzzle, and the locks are arcane-locked, the player would have to burn three 2nd-level spell slots in a row to open the puzzle. Are they high enough level where they would/could do that?
I vote for antimagic field too. It's a God you're playing against so the maze can contain whatever nonsense you like. Make the entire room which contains this climactic lock filled with an obvious field of strangeness. First the little magic lantern they found and used in an earlier puzzle suddenly goes out and no spells or magic objects work (an antimagic field). Then they feel their minds and bodies are sluggish and everything they try to do there is difficult (disadvantage on all skills and attacks). Finally the lock and door themselves are fiendishly complex and strong (DC 30 to pick or break, 25 to make up for missing one key with your thieves tools), and punish a failed pick attempt with magical damage feedback from the field to dissuade trying to brute force the door (perhaps a simple Arcana or Investigation check would warm them about the dangerous feedback). Add some more effects if that still feels too easy to break. None of the effects of this field will make it hard to open this door if they actually have the keys, but almost impossible without them. And frankly, if the adventurers find a way past all that without the keys then they absolutely deserve their victory.
I will also urge towards not dismissing character options that the players made the conscious choice of getting. Doubly so if it was an informed decision (such as "we're going to the dreaded Locked Labyrinth of a Thousand Doors, better prepare Knock and get an extra lockpick for our rogue").
If you must have a way to prevent the group from bypassing the entire dungeon by a well placed lock, there are other ways to block passage, such as a seven-ton door that can only be raised when all three waterwheels are turning, or a Living Door that just doesn't open until it hears the password hidden in the labyrinth, or, if you want to be lazy about it, a magical door that the wizard can tell at a glance is immune to Knock. Also known as the "Requires Key" kind of door you find in most RPGs.
I'd still let Knock work in the majority of actual locks in there, though. Especially if you have a lot of them, it's just a limited resource that the players need to juggle as with everything else they have.
Antimagic field will work on pretty much anything.
The spell itself is usually centered on a high level spellcaster (who casts it), but it can also be a standalone effect centered on specific locations. I don't want to spoil any adventures for people, but at least two official adventures have permanent antimagic fields centered on buildings/rooms. It's a very powerful spell but even a minor god could have access to it, especially in a place he created. It could definitely be placed over a chest, or any other object within reason.
Just keep in mind that, if you keep magic loot within the chest, its magical effects will be suppressed until a player removes the item from the antimagic field. The loot might not even seem magical until they do so. Of course, you could also say the antimagic effect is dispelled when the chest is first opened.
Site Rules & Guidelines - Please feel free to message a moderator if you have any concerns.
My homebrew: [Subclasses] [Races] [Feats] [Discussion Thread]
Oh wonderful! Thankyou so much Villain Theory! I was so sad when I thought I couldn't use the prop and plans I have for it! It sounds like exactly the sort of trick a god of puzzles and self growth would play too! Thankyou also for the reminder of the magical suppression. It's deffinately something I'll need to keep noted down, and though my players are encouraging and forgiving, I really want to a good job at DMing. I deeply appreciate the help!
kuregarose
My DM did something similar with us 2 weeks ago. He just made the chest a magic item that Knock and Dispel Magic won’t work on. It was only one box, not even a chest, and we didn’t get upset. We don’t know, or care, what his justification is because there is a way for us to open it.
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