I'm trying to make sure I have the proper understanding of using Invisibility in Combat. Below I've outlined what I think an encounter would entail. Any corrections or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Setup: Round 1
Manshoon casts Greater Invisibility.
Manshoon is classified under the Invisible Condition.
*An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves. *Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature's attack rolls have advantage.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN. Player 1: Throws two daggers rolls (17, 14), (8,4) and hits once, causing 3 points of damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (11), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 2: Attacks with crossbow rolls (14,12), and this causes 10 points of damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (18), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 3: Attacks with crossbow rolls (10,8) and misses.
Round 2
Manshoon takes the HIDE Action by rolling for a Dexterity(Stealth); in this case, his hidden score is 15. Now he is Unseen and Unheard. Manshoon moves 30 feet to the East.
Player(s): Since Manshoon is Unseen and Unheard, the players' do not know where he has gone all attack rolls are still at disadvantage. Player(s): All players' Passive Perception fails. Player 1: Picks a location, throws two daggers rolls (18, 12)(12,14), and misses the wrong place. Player 2: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (5,10), and misses the wrong place. Player 3: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (20,15), and misses the wrong place.
Round 3
Manshoon lines up his shot and cast Lightning Bolt against two players.
Player 1: Saves and takes half damage. Player 2: Saves and takes half damage.
Manshoon, because he cast Greater Invisibility, remains Invisible, but his location has been revealed, so he falls under the Invisible Condition.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN. Player 1: Throws two daggers and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (15), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 2: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (12), succeeds, and remains invisible. Player 3: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage. Manshoon rolls for Concentration (7) fails, and Greater Invisibility goes away and is now seen and heard.
Questions:
Do I accurately represent how Invisibility (Greater) works in combat? If not, what did I get wrong?
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location? Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
It's wild to me that nobody thought to use their action on round two to search for your invisible, hidden creature. But that's their loss. It looks like you played it the way I would have.
EDIT: one minor quibble. Manshoon should have technically made all of those concentration checks on the beginning of his next turn, rather than when the damage occurred. But there's nothing really wrong with doing it the way you did, either.
EDIT: Looks like I'm the one who misunderstood the rule.
made all of those concentration checks on the beginning of his next turn, rather than when the damage occurred
Sorry, but you make concentration checks at the beginning of your turn? I've never even heard of it being ruled that way. Am I missing something?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
EDIT: one minor quibble. Manshoon should have technically made all of those concentration checks on the beginning of his next turn, rather than when the damage occurred. But there's nothing really wrong with doing it the way you did, either.
You make the concentration check right when you take the damage.
"Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration."
EDIT: one minor quibble. Manshoon should have technically made all of those concentration checks on the beginning of his next turn, rather than when the damage occurred.
It's when the damage occurs.
Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration.
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location? Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
Yep, in fact one of them should have. If the player succeeded in a Wisdom (Perception) check against Dexterity (Stealth) check then they would know the square Manshoon is in. Manshoon would still be invisible, so disadvantage to attack, but at least the players would know what square he is in.
No gotchas, you've got the rules right. Greater invisibility is just very powerful. :-)
Note that if you cannot see a target then you cannot use an attack of opportunity against them, so invisible combatants have great battlefield mobility.
I don't see anything wrong with how you played it, but I might have done things slightly differently. (Also, I don't see anything in my PHB that suggests that Concentration checks aren't done precisely as you did them, right when the damage occurs.) I am unclear if the player was hitting with two daggers or one dagger when they threw. If they hit with two, my interpretation is that each dagger provokes a Concentration check. (Just like if two different characters each threw a dagger and both hit, that would be two checks.)
Round 1. Manshoon should cast Greater Invisibility and then move. He shouldn't stay in the spot where he cast his spell.
RAW Hiding/moving quietly always takes an action. But how is Manshoon dressed? Robes and soft boots? It might be enough to justify getting to use a Passive Stealth for free, just like characters get to use a Passive Perception to see if they can locate him by sound/tracks/weird distortions. (That's certainly how I would play it. Most DM's I know let them move effectively silently because there is usually a lot of noise in a combat.)
Once he takes the Hide action, players still get their Passive Perception, or can burn an action. I would let them point out a general area as the quick communication you can do for free each round. ("He's over by the right edge of the tapestry!")
Round 3, always try to save some movement for after the spell. Don't let them know where you end up if you can help it.
Overall I think you adjudicated it well and fairly.
Just to add my voice, yes it sounds like you handled the scenario accurately with respect to the rules. As long as none of the players have a passive perception of 15 or higher. If a player had a passive perception equal to or higher than Manshoon's stealth check then they would know at least vaguely where Manshoon moved to, because that player heard him, saw objects get jostled, etc. Exactly how accurately the character knows Manshoon's location is up to you. The character is having to rely on non-visual senses and/or indirect visual cues and how precise they are isn't made explicit in the rules.
Similarly, players who Manshoon successfully hid from can use the Search action to try to locate Manshoon using non-visual senses or indirect visual cues. But again exactly what the characters gain even if the attempt is successful isn't made explicit in the rules. In either case any attack rolls would be made at disadvantage due to the Invisible condition as well as being an unseen target.
A small tangent but an odd consequence of how the Invisible condition is written, being unseen and getting/forcing advantage/disadvantage are separate and unrelated effects. The fact that being unseen also gives/forces advantage/disadvantage is ultimately irrelevant for creatures with the Invisible condition since the condition gives it directly. I bring this up just to point out the interaction between the Invisible condition and something like See Invisibility that let's you see an invisible creature. Being able to see an invisible creature let's you target them as you would any visible creature but your attacks are still at disadvantage because the invisible creature still benefits from the second bullet point of the Invisible condition. To defeat that you need something like Faerie Fire that explicitly does so.
A small tangent but an odd consequence of how the Invisible condition is written, being unseen and getting/forcing advantage/disadvantage are separate and unrelated effects. The fact that being unseen also gives/forces advantage/disadvantage is ultimately irrelevant for creatures with the Invisible condition since the condition gives it directly. I bring this up just to point out the interaction between the Invisible condition and something like See Invisibility that let's you see an invisible creature. Being able to see an invisible creature let's you target them as you would any visible creature but your attacks are still at disadvantage because the invisible creature still benefits from the second bullet point of the Invisible condition.
I have seen this argument before. Not only is it silly to think the invisible condition should grant any benefit against someone who can see them, there is no guidance in the game that tells us we should look at the bullet points of a condition without any regard to each other instead of considering the condition holistically.
Do I accurately represent how Invisibility (Greater) works in combat? If not, what did I get wrong?
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location? Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
You did nothing wrong that i can see.
In round 2 a character could have used the Search action and possibly find where Manshoon was hidden, thus not being unheard to him or her anymore. It'd still be unseen and unheard to others and thus be hidden from them since they still can't hear it. And it'd still be unseen to everyone since it's invisible though it's location could now be more easily guessed with directions or successful attack against it for exemple.
It's wild to me that nobody thought to use their action on round two to search for your invisible, hidden creature. But that's their loss. It looks like you played it the way I would have.
EDIT: one minor quibble. Manshoon should have technically made all of those concentration checks on the beginning of his next turn, rather than when the damage occurred. But there's nothing really wrong with doing it the way you did, either.
EDIT: Looks like I'm the one who misunderstood the rule.
Remember that I made up the whole encounter; this was not an actual engagement run at the table.
With that said, you are right; I should have had a person do a SEARCH action to try to locate Manshoon. That is my second question regarding using an effort to look for Manshoon in round 2. I was unsure what the results would be from the character searching and how it could inform the others.
Do I accurately represent how Invisibility (Greater) works in combat? If not, what did I get wrong?
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location? Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
You did nothing wrong that i can see.
In round 2 a character could have used the Search action and possibly find where Manshoon was hidden, thus not being unheard to him or her anymore. It'd still be unseen and unheard to others and thus be hidden from them since they still can't hear it. And it'd still be unseen to everyone since it's invisible though it's location could now be more easily guessed with directions or successful attack against it for exemple.
That is why I wondered what a successful search result is and how it can assist the other players. In short, the other players would have the general direction to shoot if range weapon, but Manshoon is still under the Invisible condition as well as hidden (unseen/unheard) rolls would be at a disadvantage.
Exactly. As for location by directions, it'd be up to the DM depending on communication clarity, layout clues etc... for exemple successfully searching for a hidden creature who's also invisible while next to a shelf can be easier to direct others to it's location (Manshoon is directly right next to the shelf!) but would prove much more difficult to communicate it's location if in the middle of a very large empty room without feature in layout to position reference.
I don't see anything wrong with how you played it, but I might have done things slightly differently. (Also, I don't see anything in my PHB that suggests that Concentration checks aren't done precisely as you did them, right when the damage occurs.) I am unclear if the player was hitting with two daggers or one dagger when they threw. If they hit with two, my interpretation is that each dagger provokes a Concentration check. (Just like if two different characters each threw a dagger and both hit, that would be two checks.)
Round 1. Manshoon should cast Greater Invisibility and then move. He shouldn't stay in the spot where he cast his spell.
Just curious about why Manshoon should move after casting the spell. While I have no problems using the movement, he is still Unseen, but not Unheard, so regardless of where Manshoon moves, he is still 'Visible' by his movement. I may be missing something here, so I'm curious about the suggestion.
RAW Hiding/moving quietly always takes an action. But how is Manshoon dressed? Robes and soft boots? It might be enough to justify getting to use a Passive Stealth for free, just like characters get to use a Passive Perception to see if they can locate him by sound/tracks/weird distortions. (That's certainly how I would play it. Most DM's I know let them move effectively silently because there is usually a lot of noise in a combat.)
Once he takes the Hide action, players still get their Passive Perception, or can burn an action. I would let them point out a general area as the quick communication you can do for free each round. ("He's over by the right edge of the tapestry!")
I rarely use Passive Skills outside of Perception and Insight, so Passive Stealth is an interesting suggestion. Manshoon wears robes, so he is already pretty "quiet", but I think with the Unseen, some factor still makes him Heard before he can take the Hide action.
Round 3, always try to save some movement for after the spell. Don't let them know where you end up if you can help it.
Overall I think you adjudicated it well and fairly.
Fair suggestion.
As I said before, this was not an actual combat encounter that occurred at my table but a "simulation" to make sure I hit what I thought how the rules would play out.
A small tangent but an odd consequence of how the Invisible condition is written, being unseen and getting/forcing advantage/disadvantage are separate and unrelated effects. The fact that being unseen also gives/forces advantage/disadvantage is ultimately irrelevant for creatures with the Invisible condition since the condition gives it directly. I bring this up just to point out the interaction between the Invisible condition and something like See Invisibility that let's you see an invisible creature. Being able to see an invisible creature let's you target them as you would any visible creature but your attacks are still at disadvantage because the invisible creature still benefits from the second bullet point of the Invisible condition.
I have seen this argument before. Not only is it silly to think the invisible condition should grant any benefit against someone who can see them, there is no guidance in the game that tells us we should look at the bullet points of a condition without any regard to each other instead of considering the condition holistically.
I agree that the situation of being able to see an invisible creature but the creature still benefits in some way from the Invisible condition feels silly to me.
The reason I mentioned it is because JC addressed this specific point and said it was intentional in an Ask The Sage hosted by WoTC in September 2021: https://youtu.be/n42dboiQeOY. The Invisibility question is addressed at the 20 minute mark.
If I hadn't heard the explanation I would just assume the Invisible condition was simply reiterating the benefits of being unseen to make sure they weren't missed.
Edit: There still are benefits to seeing an invisible creature, like being able to target them with spells like Charm Monster that require seeing the target.
Exactly. As for location by directions, it'd be up to the DM depending on communication clarity, layout clues etc... for exemple successfully searching for a hidden creature who's also invisible while next to a shelf can be easier to direct others to it's location (Manshoon is directly right next to the shelf!) but would prove much more difficult to communicate it's location if in the middle of a very large empty room without feature in layout to position reference.
Good example. Now I'm thinking about how to translate that to a VTT. While I can drop a token on the map that gives everyone Manshoon's location, I want to keep this information isolated to just the one who did the searching and succeeded, so that means of communicating to the other players seems more "realistic" and necessary. More likely private chat or giving grid coordinates.
Letting you see through invisibility is not enought to counter it, for See Invisibility to bypass the invisible condition, it would need to say;
For the duration, creatures and objects are not invisible to you, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Ethereal creatures and objects appear ghostly and translucent.
Thanks for the link. I had not seen that before, and I have to say he straight up addresses my contention. Boy, I sure do I feel strongly about his explanation, though. Here's hoping the next iteration of conditions streamlines that considerably.
Exactly. As for location by directions, it'd be up to the DM depending on communication clarity, layout clues etc... for exemple successfully searching for a hidden creature who's also invisible while next to a shelf can be easier to direct others to it's location (Manshoon is directly right next to the shelf!) but would prove much more difficult to communicate it's location if in the middle of a very large empty room without feature in layout to position reference.
Good example. Now I'm thinking about how to translate that to a VTT. While I can drop a token on the map that gives everyone Manshoon's location, I want to keep this information isolated to just the one who did the searching and succeeded, so that means of communicating to the other players seems more "realistic" and necessary. More likely private chat or giving grid coordinates.
What i do on Roll20 is i let the token in GM layer to keep it out of sight of the players, and tell anyone in private where it is when discovered. I also reveal the location of hidden creatures that are successfully hit by an attack or spell with visual elements as i judge that everyone can see where an arrow or a spell land or take effect such as Catapult, Black Tentacles or Aganazzar's Scorcher for exemple.
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I'm trying to make sure I have the proper understanding of using Invisibility in Combat. Below I've outlined what I think an encounter would entail. Any corrections or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Setup:
Round 1
Manshoon casts Greater Invisibility.
Manshoon is classified under the Invisible Condition.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN.
Player 1: Throws two daggers rolls (17, 14), (8,4) and hits once, causing 3 points of damage.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (11), succeeds, and remains invisible.
Player 2: Attacks with crossbow rolls (14,12), and this causes 10 points of damage.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (18), succeeds, and remains invisible.
Player 3: Attacks with crossbow rolls (10,8) and misses.
Round 2
Manshoon takes the HIDE Action by rolling for a Dexterity(Stealth); in this case, his hidden score is 15. Now he is Unseen and Unheard.
Manshoon moves 30 feet to the East.
Player(s): Since Manshoon is Unseen and Unheard, the players' do not know where he has gone all attack rolls are still at disadvantage.
Player(s): All players' Passive Perception fails.
Player 1: Picks a location, throws two daggers rolls (18, 12)(12,14), and misses the wrong place.
Player 2: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (5,10), and misses the wrong place.
Player 3: Picks a location, attacks with crossbow rolls (20,15), and misses the wrong place.
Round 3
Manshoon lines up his shot and cast Lightning Bolt against two players.
Player 1: Saves and takes half damage.
Player 2: Saves and takes half damage.
Manshoon, because he cast Greater Invisibility, remains Invisible, but his location has been revealed, so he falls under the Invisible Condition.
Player(s): Can attack with disadvantage Manshoon where he is located since he is heavily obscured and not HIDDEN.
Player 1: Throws two daggers and hits, causing damage.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (15), succeeds, and remains invisible.
Player 2: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (12), succeeds, and remains invisible.
Player 3: Attacks with a crossbow and hits, causing damage.
Manshoon rolls for Concentration (7) fails, and Greater Invisibility goes away and is now seen and heard.
Questions:
Do I accurately represent how Invisibility (Greater) works in combat? If not, what did I get wrong?
In Round 2, could a player use his action to make a Perception check to locate Manshoon and yell to the others indicating the general location? Would it remove the unseen and unheard and be unseen and no longer hidden?
Are there any gotchas to look out for that I may not have covered?
It's wild to me that nobody thought to use their action on round two to search for your invisible, hidden creature. But that's their loss. It looks like you played it the way I would have.
EDIT: one minor quibble. Manshoon should have technically made all of those concentration checks on the beginning of his next turn, rather than when the damage occurred. But there's nothing really wrong with doing it the way you did, either.EDIT: Looks like I'm the one who misunderstood the rule.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sorry, but you make concentration checks at the beginning of your turn? I've never even heard of it being ruled that way. Am I missing something?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
You make the concentration check right when you take the damage.
"Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration."
It's when the damage occurs.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#Concentration
Yep, in fact one of them should have. If the player succeeded in a Wisdom (Perception) check against Dexterity (Stealth) check then they would know the square Manshoon is in. Manshoon would still be invisible, so disadvantage to attack, but at least the players would know what square he is in.
No gotchas, you've got the rules right. Greater invisibility is just very powerful. :-)
Note that if you cannot see a target then you cannot use an attack of opportunity against them, so invisible combatants have great battlefield mobility.
I don't see anything wrong with how you played it, but I might have done things slightly differently. (Also, I don't see anything in my PHB that suggests that Concentration checks aren't done precisely as you did them, right when the damage occurs.) I am unclear if the player was hitting with two daggers or one dagger when they threw. If they hit with two, my interpretation is that each dagger provokes a Concentration check. (Just like if two different characters each threw a dagger and both hit, that would be two checks.)
Round 1. Manshoon should cast Greater Invisibility and then move. He shouldn't stay in the spot where he cast his spell.
RAW Hiding/moving quietly always takes an action. But how is Manshoon dressed? Robes and soft boots? It might be enough to justify getting to use a Passive Stealth for free, just like characters get to use a Passive Perception to see if they can locate him by sound/tracks/weird distortions. (That's certainly how I would play it. Most DM's I know let them move effectively silently because there is usually a lot of noise in a combat.)
Once he takes the Hide action, players still get their Passive Perception, or can burn an action. I would let them point out a general area as the quick communication you can do for free each round. ("He's over by the right edge of the tapestry!")
Round 3, always try to save some movement for after the spell. Don't let them know where you end up if you can help it.
Overall I think you adjudicated it well and fairly.
WTF Of course you make the save when you take the damage. Why the hell did I think otherwise?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Similarly, players who Manshoon successfully hid from can use the Search action to try to locate Manshoon using non-visual senses or indirect visual cues. But again exactly what the characters gain even if the attempt is successful isn't made explicit in the rules. In either case any attack rolls would be made at disadvantage due to the Invisible condition as well as being an unseen target.
A small tangent but an odd consequence of how the Invisible condition is written, being unseen and getting/forcing advantage/disadvantage are separate and unrelated effects. The fact that being unseen also gives/forces advantage/disadvantage is ultimately irrelevant for creatures with the Invisible condition since the condition gives it directly. I bring this up just to point out the interaction between the Invisible condition and something like See Invisibility that let's you see an invisible creature. Being able to see an invisible creature let's you target them as you would any visible creature but your attacks are still at disadvantage because the invisible creature still benefits from the second bullet point of the Invisible condition. To defeat that you need something like Faerie Fire that explicitly does so.
I have seen this argument before. Not only is it silly to think the invisible condition should grant any benefit against someone who can see them, there is no guidance in the game that tells us we should look at the bullet points of a condition without any regard to each other instead of considering the condition holistically.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You did nothing wrong that i can see.
In round 2 a character could have used the Search action and possibly find where Manshoon was hidden, thus not being unheard to him or her anymore. It'd still be unseen and unheard to others and thus be hidden from them since they still can't hear it. And it'd still be unseen to everyone since it's invisible though it's location could now be more easily guessed with directions or successful attack against it for exemple.
Remember that I made up the whole encounter; this was not an actual engagement run at the table.
With that said, you are right; I should have had a person do a SEARCH action to try to locate Manshoon. That is my second question regarding using an effort to look for Manshoon in round 2. I was unsure what the results would be from the character searching and how it could inform the others.
That is why I wondered what a successful search result is and how it can assist the other players. In short, the other players would have the general direction to shoot if range weapon, but Manshoon is still under the Invisible condition as well as hidden (unseen/unheard) rolls would be at a disadvantage.
Exactly. As for location by directions, it'd be up to the DM depending on communication clarity, layout clues etc... for exemple successfully searching for a hidden creature who's also invisible while next to a shelf can be easier to direct others to it's location (Manshoon is directly right next to the shelf!) but would prove much more difficult to communicate it's location if in the middle of a very large empty room without feature in layout to position reference.
Just curious about why Manshoon should move after casting the spell. While I have no problems using the movement, he is still Unseen, but not Unheard, so regardless of where Manshoon moves, he is still 'Visible' by his movement. I may be missing something here, so I'm curious about the suggestion.
I rarely use Passive Skills outside of Perception and Insight, so Passive Stealth is an interesting suggestion. Manshoon wears robes, so he is already pretty "quiet", but I think with the Unseen, some factor still makes him Heard before he can take the Hide action.
Fair suggestion.
As I said before, this was not an actual combat encounter that occurred at my table but a "simulation" to make sure I hit what I thought how the rules would play out.
I agree that the situation of being able to see an invisible creature but the creature still benefits in some way from the Invisible condition feels silly to me.
The reason I mentioned it is because JC addressed this specific point and said it was intentional in an Ask The Sage hosted by WoTC in September 2021: https://youtu.be/n42dboiQeOY. The Invisibility question is addressed at the 20 minute mark.
If I hadn't heard the explanation I would just assume the Invisible condition was simply reiterating the benefits of being unseen to make sure they weren't missed.
Edit: There still are benefits to seeing an invisible creature, like being able to target them with spells like Charm Monster that require seeing the target.
Good example. Now I'm thinking about how to translate that to a VTT. While I can drop a token on the map that gives everyone Manshoon's location, I want to keep this information isolated to just the one who did the searching and succeeded, so that means of communicating to the other players seems more "realistic" and necessary. More likely private chat or giving grid coordinates.
Letting you see through invisibility is not enought to counter it, for See Invisibility to bypass the invisible condition, it would need to say;
Thanks for the link. I had not seen that before, and I have to say he straight up addresses my contention. Boy, I sure do I feel strongly about his explanation, though. Here's hoping the next iteration of conditions streamlines that considerably.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
What i do on Roll20 is i let the token in GM layer to keep it out of sight of the players, and tell anyone in private where it is when discovered. I also reveal the location of hidden creatures that are successfully hit by an attack or spell with visual elements as i judge that everyone can see where an arrow or a spell land or take effect such as Catapult, Black Tentacles or Aganazzar's Scorcher for exemple.