Our group of brand new players (including me, the first time DM) just started playing LMoP and we would appreciate some clarification on rules about stealth and surprise.
Imagine an L shaped corridor with the party members in one leg and a group of goblins in the other one. Rogue decides to sneak ahead of the party around the bend to check out the situation. His stealth roll beats the goblins passive perception so he manages to remain unnoticed as he goes around the bend. He now decides to take advantage of his stealth and attacks one of the goblins with his shortbow, while other party members still stand behind the bend, out of sight from the goblins.
In this situation the rogue obviously takes the first action of the combat. Should initiative be rolled before his first attack and does he automatically get the top initiative spot? Are the goblins in this situation surprised by the rogue and lose their whole first turn, allowing the other party members to jump around the bend and attack them during the first round? Should other party member also roll stealth in this situation, even though they weren't directly involved in the whole surprise situation, orchestrated by the rogue?
The next question is related to the last room of the Cragmaw hideout. The goblin from the previous room successfully ran to the king Klarg and warned him about the adventurers, so he hides and is prepared for their eventual entry in his room. Can Klargs group ever be surprised by the party? If the rogue decides to scout ahead and rolls stealth, is that contested by enemies passive perception or the perception roll, since they are actively anticipating the attack? Since Klarg is also hiding, I assume he also rolls stealth and compares to the rogues passive perception (or his perception check?). What happens if both the rogue and Klarg fail to notice each other? I assume the rogue will eventually run headlong into Klarg, but who discovers whom first in this situation and who is surprised?
Welcome to the club! The first rule is "have fun." :)
Surprise, like stealth, is only tricky until you figure it out, then it's pretty straightforward.
As per Player's Handbook, page 189 (or here), everyone that has not noticed a threat when the encounter starts is surprised - this is on a per-combatant basis, keep in mind. Also, an attack usually begins an encounter, and everyone rolls initiative at the start of the encounter. Those surprised simply skip their first turn (but keep in mind, when a combatant ends his turn, even if he did nothing due to surprise, he is no longer surprised).
Consequently, as per the rules, the rogue declares the attack, and the DM calls for initiatives (for everyone, including the rogue - he doesn't automatically get the top spot). Then you go by initiative order, and everyone surprised does nothing. In your example, unless the rogue also informed his party somehow that he has decided to attack, I'd say they're also surprised - so the rogue is the only one that takes an action on the first round. If he had warned (something like "okay, wait here, I'm going to attack them before we reveal ourselves"), I'd say the party gets to act as well.
Technicality: The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends is usually irrelevant, but it does make a difference for the Assassin's "assassinate" trait, and the surprised combatant's capability to use Reactions. I suggest not to bother with such fringe cases for the time being, however - just remember you go by initiative, and everyone surprised misses out on the first turn.
Stealth for the party depends. If the party approaches close enough for the goblins to have a chance to hear them, they should roll Stealth or waste the surprise. A similar situation with an L shaped corridor could have both parties (friends and enemies) roll Stealth, and if everyone succeeds against the opposing passive perception, they meet at the corner and everyone is surprised! (so no one acts on the first round, as they scramble to prepare).
The last question brings out a detail about Stealth in 5th edition when compared to previous ones: You need something to allow you to hide. A crate you hide behind (cover), heavy foliage or mist (being heavily obscured), darkness (similarly obscured, but mind Darkvision), being invisible, and so on.
If someone is prepared for intruders (so, alert), and is watching the only corridor you can enter a room from, it's very difficult to hide from him. Not impossible, if invisibility or something similar is involved, but otherwise so. As such, it's not easy to surprise Klarg, but I've seen weirder things happen. A good distraction goes a long way! :p
And yes, the DM may ask for active Perceptions whenever someone does something like "actively watch the corridor in case someone comes by". Keep in mind, this does not invalidate their passive one usually (so if you roll 9 or lower, the sneaky one still has to beat your passive perception). Actively looking for something doesn't make you less likely to notice it.
Similarly, if both parties are hidden from each other, they will eventually reveal themselves when they lose the circumstance that allows them to hide in the first place (if you're hiding behind a crate, and a goblin is hiding on the other side of the same crate, when you eventually walk around the crate both you and the goblin lose that cover - you're standing face to face - and are likely both surprised).
This may all sound unfair to sneaky types like Rogues (especially those coming from previous editions), but the way Stealth is handled (and Rogue traits that allow them to hide as a Bonus Action), makes it pretty powerful when used correctly. Remember, if you can hide in combat, and you do go over a combatant's Passive Perception, they need to use an action to actively look for you (although mind that they can move around a tree you're hiding behind and see you automatically, so positioning remains important).
Thank you for your detailed answer. So far, we are definitely having loads of fun :)
Reading the rules and your answer, I would resolve the Klarg situation like this:
First I would have Klarg roll stealth (not sure whether to add advantage, since he knows where the threat is coming from and can thus hide more effectively), competed by the rogues passive perception - 5 (disadvantage from dimly lit conditions). I would not give him an active perception check, since that would give away that something is in the room, unless the players asked specifically to observe the pile of rocks that Klarg is hiding behind.
At the same time I would have the rogue roll stealth and compare it to Klargs active perception check (without (dis)advantage, since the disadvantage from dimly lit conditions cancels out the advantage from him being prepared for the attack). If the check rolls lower than the passive perception, I would take the number from passive perception into account. However, I think that this would give the rogue a bit too high chances to actually be successful in sneaking through the only entry into the room with Klarg watching this entry intently. I could fail the stealth check automatically, but I still want to give the rogue a small but possible chance of sneaking through the entry unnoticed. Would giving Klarg advantage on perception be OK, since the rules clearly state that the advantages and disadvantages cancel out each other, regardless of the amount of them (like giving Klarg double advantage and disadvantage canceling out only one)?
This is a very good handling - other than that, it's your game, so there's no need to overthink it as long as you keep your rulings consistent.
If you want to overthink it, here's a few notes to keep in mind. :)
1. If a creature has advantage on a roll from 6 different sources, and disadvantage from just 1, it still rolls without either. Advantage and Disadvantage don't stack with themselves, so you don't have "advantage from X number of sources". You either have it, or not. And if you have both, neither applies.
2. If memory serves, Klarg's cave isn't entirely in darkness, it has light (a fire at the center, and standard torch light? Can't say I recall specifics, but if the description of the specific room or the general area doesn't mention pitch darkness, it usually suggests some light). Judging that the cave's general lighting is dim (except for close to the fire and the torches, I guess?) is perfect.
3. Klarg is a Bugbear. They have darkvision. That means that it treats darkness as dim light, and dim light as bright light. So, if the room is dimly lit, Klarg doesn't have disadvantage on perceptions based on sight. Goblins also have darkvision. Wolves do not.
4. A Perception roll isn't strictly visual. Someone standing still makes no sound, generally, without needing a roll, but Stealth covers both hiding yourself from sight and being careful about your noise when you walk around, and Perception rolls usually utilize all relevant senses. Why do I mention that? Because the wolf doesn't have darkvision, so it has disadvantage on dim light to see, but it has advantage on hearing and smell checks.
Thanks again, I'll try to be as consistent as possible.
The room actually contains smoldering coals (but no fire), which probably don't give off plenty of light, maybe dim light in 5 ft radius. The dimly lit conditions I mentioned already contain the fact that the cave is pitch black, but bugbears have darkvision, hence his disadvantage on perception.
Dim light usually isn't sufficient to hide (unless you have the Skulker feat or the wood elf racial trait Mask of the Wild), and the -5 to sight-based perception checks is irrelevant to trying to find a creature by sound. If you had to use sight to find a hidden creature, hiding in darkness or while invisible would always succeed.
I was just going off the RAW, where lightly obscured situation (such as dim light) imposes disadvantage on perception checks. The bugbear would get disadvantage since bugbears can't really smell a player across the whole cave, while the wolf would do a normal check (disadvantage because of dim light counteracted by the advantage based on its keen sense of smell).
I guess that in this situation it really is impossible for the rogue to get through the cave opening without getting noticed, so he would automatically fail the check. I'll try to gently nudge the players towards creative thinking - like climbing up the poop chimney on the other side of the room. With Klarg being so intent on the one opening he wouldn't really expect players to come up his toilet, giving them a good chance of surprising him :)
You got my upvote for that post for using the term "poop chimney". That is all.
And sure, getting your players to think creatively is important. That's half the fun of DMing, when your party surprises you! :D
Just mind the delicate balance between "nudging" and "dragging by the nose". Subtle hints are best - a misfired crossbow bolt on the cave entrance, rather than an NPC going "let's check the other way!", for instance. And don't be afraid to let your group stumble into ambushes if they don't interpret the clues correctly. :p
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Our group of brand new players (including me, the first time DM) just started playing LMoP and we would appreciate some clarification on rules about stealth and surprise.
Imagine an L shaped corridor with the party members in one leg and a group of goblins in the other one. Rogue decides to sneak ahead of the party around the bend to check out the situation. His stealth roll beats the goblins passive perception so he manages to remain unnoticed as he goes around the bend. He now decides to take advantage of his stealth and attacks one of the goblins with his shortbow, while other party members still stand behind the bend, out of sight from the goblins.
In this situation the rogue obviously takes the first action of the combat. Should initiative be rolled before his first attack and does he automatically get the top initiative spot? Are the goblins in this situation surprised by the rogue and lose their whole first turn, allowing the other party members to jump around the bend and attack them during the first round? Should other party member also roll stealth in this situation, even though they weren't directly involved in the whole surprise situation, orchestrated by the rogue?
The next question is related to the last room of the Cragmaw hideout. The goblin from the previous room successfully ran to the king Klarg and warned him about the adventurers, so he hides and is prepared for their eventual entry in his room. Can Klargs group ever be surprised by the party? If the rogue decides to scout ahead and rolls stealth, is that contested by enemies passive perception or the perception roll, since they are actively anticipating the attack? Since Klarg is also hiding, I assume he also rolls stealth and compares to the rogues passive perception (or his perception check?). What happens if both the rogue and Klarg fail to notice each other? I assume the rogue will eventually run headlong into Klarg, but who discovers whom first in this situation and who is surprised?
Welcome to the club! The first rule is "have fun." :)
Surprise, like stealth, is only tricky until you figure it out, then it's pretty straightforward.
As per Player's Handbook, page 189 (or here), everyone that has not noticed a threat when the encounter starts is surprised - this is on a per-combatant basis, keep in mind. Also, an attack usually begins an encounter, and everyone rolls initiative at the start of the encounter. Those surprised simply skip their first turn (but keep in mind, when a combatant ends his turn, even if he did nothing due to surprise, he is no longer surprised).
Consequently, as per the rules, the rogue declares the attack, and the DM calls for initiatives (for everyone, including the rogue - he doesn't automatically get the top spot). Then you go by initiative order, and everyone surprised does nothing. In your example, unless the rogue also informed his party somehow that he has decided to attack, I'd say they're also surprised - so the rogue is the only one that takes an action on the first round. If he had warned (something like "okay, wait here, I'm going to attack them before we reveal ourselves"), I'd say the party gets to act as well.
Technicality: The fact that a combatant is no longer surprised when their turn ends is usually irrelevant, but it does make a difference for the Assassin's "assassinate" trait, and the surprised combatant's capability to use Reactions. I suggest not to bother with such fringe cases for the time being, however - just remember you go by initiative, and everyone surprised misses out on the first turn.
Stealth for the party depends. If the party approaches close enough for the goblins to have a chance to hear them, they should roll Stealth or waste the surprise. A similar situation with an L shaped corridor could have both parties (friends and enemies) roll Stealth, and if everyone succeeds against the opposing passive perception, they meet at the corner and everyone is surprised! (so no one acts on the first round, as they scramble to prepare).
The last question brings out a detail about Stealth in 5th edition when compared to previous ones: You need something to allow you to hide. A crate you hide behind (cover), heavy foliage or mist (being heavily obscured), darkness (similarly obscured, but mind Darkvision), being invisible, and so on.
If someone is prepared for intruders (so, alert), and is watching the only corridor you can enter a room from, it's very difficult to hide from him. Not impossible, if invisibility or something similar is involved, but otherwise so. As such, it's not easy to surprise Klarg, but I've seen weirder things happen. A good distraction goes a long way! :p
And yes, the DM may ask for active Perceptions whenever someone does something like "actively watch the corridor in case someone comes by". Keep in mind, this does not invalidate their passive one usually (so if you roll 9 or lower, the sneaky one still has to beat your passive perception). Actively looking for something doesn't make you less likely to notice it.
Similarly, if both parties are hidden from each other, they will eventually reveal themselves when they lose the circumstance that allows them to hide in the first place (if you're hiding behind a crate, and a goblin is hiding on the other side of the same crate, when you eventually walk around the crate both you and the goblin lose that cover - you're standing face to face - and are likely both surprised).
This may all sound unfair to sneaky types like Rogues (especially those coming from previous editions), but the way Stealth is handled (and Rogue traits that allow them to hide as a Bonus Action), makes it pretty powerful when used correctly. Remember, if you can hide in combat, and you do go over a combatant's Passive Perception, they need to use an action to actively look for you (although mind that they can move around a tree you're hiding behind and see you automatically, so positioning remains important).
Thank you for your detailed answer. So far, we are definitely having loads of fun :)
Reading the rules and your answer, I would resolve the Klarg situation like this:
First I would have Klarg roll stealth (not sure whether to add advantage, since he knows where the threat is coming from and can thus hide more effectively), competed by the rogues passive perception - 5 (disadvantage from dimly lit conditions). I would not give him an active perception check, since that would give away that something is in the room, unless the players asked specifically to observe the pile of rocks that Klarg is hiding behind.
At the same time I would have the rogue roll stealth and compare it to Klargs active perception check (without (dis)advantage, since the disadvantage from dimly lit conditions cancels out the advantage from him being prepared for the attack). If the check rolls lower than the passive perception, I would take the number from passive perception into account. However, I think that this would give the rogue a bit too high chances to actually be successful in sneaking through the only entry into the room with Klarg watching this entry intently. I could fail the stealth check automatically, but I still want to give the rogue a small but possible chance of sneaking through the entry unnoticed. Would giving Klarg advantage on perception be OK, since the rules clearly state that the advantages and disadvantages cancel out each other, regardless of the amount of them (like giving Klarg double advantage and disadvantage canceling out only one)?
This is a very good handling - other than that, it's your game, so there's no need to overthink it as long as you keep your rulings consistent.
If you want to overthink it, here's a few notes to keep in mind. :)
1. If a creature has advantage on a roll from 6 different sources, and disadvantage from just 1, it still rolls without either. Advantage and Disadvantage don't stack with themselves, so you don't have "advantage from X number of sources". You either have it, or not. And if you have both, neither applies.
2. If memory serves, Klarg's cave isn't entirely in darkness, it has light (a fire at the center, and standard torch light? Can't say I recall specifics, but if the description of the specific room or the general area doesn't mention pitch darkness, it usually suggests some light). Judging that the cave's general lighting is dim (except for close to the fire and the torches, I guess?) is perfect.
3. Klarg is a Bugbear. They have darkvision. That means that it treats darkness as dim light, and dim light as bright light. So, if the room is dimly lit, Klarg doesn't have disadvantage on perceptions based on sight. Goblins also have darkvision. Wolves do not.
4. A Perception roll isn't strictly visual. Someone standing still makes no sound, generally, without needing a roll, but Stealth covers both hiding yourself from sight and being careful about your noise when you walk around, and Perception rolls usually utilize all relevant senses. Why do I mention that? Because the wolf doesn't have darkvision, so it has disadvantage on dim light to see, but it has advantage on hearing and smell checks.
Thanks again, I'll try to be as consistent as possible.
The room actually contains smoldering coals (but no fire), which probably don't give off plenty of light, maybe dim light in 5 ft radius. The dimly lit conditions I mentioned already contain the fact that the cave is pitch black, but bugbears have darkvision, hence his disadvantage on perception.
Dim light usually isn't sufficient to hide (unless you have the Skulker feat or the wood elf racial trait Mask of the Wild), and the -5 to sight-based perception checks is irrelevant to trying to find a creature by sound. If you had to use sight to find a hidden creature, hiding in darkness or while invisible would always succeed.
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I was just going off the RAW, where lightly obscured situation (such as dim light) imposes disadvantage on perception checks. The bugbear would get disadvantage since bugbears can't really smell a player across the whole cave, while the wolf would do a normal check (disadvantage because of dim light counteracted by the advantage based on its keen sense of smell).
I guess that in this situation it really is impossible for the rogue to get through the cave opening without getting noticed, so he would automatically fail the check. I'll try to gently nudge the players towards creative thinking - like climbing up the poop chimney on the other side of the room. With Klarg being so intent on the one opening he wouldn't really expect players to come up his toilet, giving them a good chance of surprising him :)
You got my upvote for that post for using the term "poop chimney". That is all.
And sure, getting your players to think creatively is important. That's half the fun of DMing, when your party surprises you! :D
Just mind the delicate balance between "nudging" and "dragging by the nose". Subtle hints are best - a misfired crossbow bolt on the cave entrance, rather than an NPC going "let's check the other way!", for instance. And don't be afraid to let your group stumble into ambushes if they don't interpret the clues correctly. :p