First things first, establishing terminology so we're all on the same page regarding discussion:
So all weapons are classified as either Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons. A "Ranged Weapon Attack" or "Melee Weapon Attack" does NOT mean "attack with a ranged weapon" or "attack with a melee weapon". For an example of where this matters, look at majority of thrown weapons. Weapons like the dagger and Handaxe are classified as Melee weapons, but they have the thrown property. This means you can throw them to make a ranged weapon attack, but they're still melee weapons. This means that something like the archery fighting style doesn't apply when you throw a Handaxe because it's not a ranged weapon, even though you're performing a ranged weapon attack. This is explicitly stated in the Player's Handbook. A weapon like the Dart is a ranged weapon with the thrown property, so it still counts for the archery fighting style.
With that out of the way here's a question about clarity in the rules: how does this function with improvised weapons?
I don't just mean random items type of improvised weapons, but switching the use of regular weapons. It is stated that if you were to use a Longbow to make a melee weapon attack, it would count as an improvised weapon and deal 1d4 damage. You can also throw a melee weapon that doesn't have the thrown property and get the same result. For the purposes of something like the archery fighting style, which is it? Is the Longbow still a ranged weapon or does it become a melee weapon when you turn it into an improvised weapon to do an improvised melee weapon attack? If it stays a ranged weapon, the archery fighting style applies and you could in theory use sharpshooter. If it doesn't, you could then use Great Weapon Master since Longbow has the heavy property. Is it both? Can you use GWM and SS on the same attack if you use a Longbow as an improvised melee weapon?
I know this would require proficiency in improvised weapons, so let's assume the character has the Tavern Brawler feat.
My personal ruling would be that it can be either but not both at the same time. There are benefits both ways to it being a melee or ranged weapon and I think the best way to balance it would be allowing both to work, just not at the same time. For example, Two Weapon Fighting requires using two light melee weapons. If someone had two Hand Crossbows they could choose to use them as improvised melee weapons and engage in two weapon fighting, and for that turn they would be melee weapons. So they wouldn't be able to apply the archery fighting style or Sharpshooter feat, but they can take their bonus action attack with the offhand crossbow (obviously they have to do this as a melee weapon attack). Conversely, they could choose to classify them still as ranged weapons then make a improvised melee weapon attack with just one, because they don't qualify for two weapon fighting, but then they can use Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter.
I would say it is neither. It’s an improvised weapon that you are making a melee or ranged attack. So Archery fighting style wouldn’t help when using a longbow for a melee attack. And neither would a feature that called for a melee or ranged weapon. At least that’s how I would rule it.
An improvised weapons has no melee or ranged classification because it's not a weapon, but an object used as one to make a melee or ranged attack with. If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon, then the weapon has it's original classification.
Weapons: Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged.
Tweets are not RAW, but regarding Rules as Intended, improvised weapons do not carry their weapon properties. You can make a melee weapon attack with a longbow, but it is a ranged weapon when used as intended, and it is an improvised weapon when used for melee. I don't believe there is any configuration in which a longbow is an actual melee weapon, and so the sharpshooter feat will never give an adjustment to your results when using the longbow to make a melee weapon attack.
This also means you can make a one-handed melee weapon attack using the longbow as an improvised weapon, even though it has the two-handed weapon property.
An improvised weapons has no melee or ranged classification because it's not a weapon, but an object used as one to make a melee or ranged attack with. If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon, then the weapon has it's original classification.
Weapons: Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged.
So would you allow the Archery fighting style to give you +2 to hit when using it as a melee weapon?
Tweets are not RAW, but regarding Rules as Intended, improvised weapons do not carry their weapon properties. You can make a melee weapon attack with a longbow, but it is a ranged weapon when used as intended, and it is an improvised weapon when used for melee. I don't believe there is any configuration in which a longbow is an actual melee weapon, and so the sharpshooter feat will never give an adjustment to your results when using the longbow to make a melee weapon attack.
That tweet from JC is in response to someone asking if you could use GWM and SS at the same time for +20 damage when smacking someone with a longbow, his response that it doesn't carry over it's original properties isn't really relevant because whether a weapon is ranged or melee isn't a property. The Heavy property of a Longbow is a property, losing it would make it invalid for GWM, if it was ruled to now be a melee weapon when used to make an improvised melee weapon attack. However since SS's only requirement is that the weapon in question be ranged, it's still not entirely clear. It seems to me it could be ruled either way, but if it were ruled to now be a melee weapon it would no longer be heavy and thus not apply for GWM.
And any time you use a melee weapon to make a ranged attack, you are not making it an improvised ranged weapon, at best you are making it an improvised thrown weapon.
Except there is no such thing as an improvised thrown weapon. Every weapon is classified as either ranged or melee as per the PHB. It has to be one of them.
Except there is no such thing as an improvised thrown weapon. Every weapon is classified as either ranged or melee as per the PHB. It has to be one of them.
If I throw a table leg at someone, would it be incorrect to call it an improvised weapon? Would it be incorrect to call it thrown? Even though a table leg is neither a melee weapon nor a ranged weapon, the rules still refer to it as an improvised weapon. And if you throw it, it's an improvised thrown weapon, or a thrown improvised weapon, or an improvised weapon that has been thrown. I think the label is accurate, even if you prefer not to make the distinction.
An improvised weapons has no melee or ranged classification because it's not a weapon, but an object used as one to make a melee or ranged attack with. If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon, then the weapon has it's original classification.
Weapons: Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged.
So would you allow the Archery fighting style to give you +2 to hit when using it as a melee weapon?
No i wouldn't allow it, as i don't ithink its ntended.
For those interested, here's a Dragon Talk: Sage Advice podcast on the subject of improvised weapons
The Dev reiterate that a weapon used as an improvised weapon doesn't have it's properties. Note that this is different than how it's classified. The distinction to keep in mind is that using say a rapier as an improvised weapon to make a ranged attack no longer have the finesse property, Is it still a melee weapon, this is how it's classified? This the rule don't explicitly rule out. Saying it's not because a melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas aranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance., then it would infer that throwing a dagger is a ranged weapon, when it's not, remaining a melee weapon despite how it's used.
Except there is no such thing as an improvised thrown weapon. Every weapon is classified as either ranged or melee as per the PHB. It has to be one of them.
If I throw a table leg at someone, would it be incorrect to call it an improvised weapon? Would it be incorrect to call it thrown? Even though a table leg is neither a melee weapon nor a ranged weapon, the rules still refer to it as an improvised weapon. And if you throw it, it's an improvised thrown weapon, or a thrown improvised weapon, or an improvised weapon that has been thrown. I think the label is accurate, even if you prefer not to make the distinction.
Call it an improvised weapon? Yes, that's exactly what it does. Call it thrown? No. Improvised weapons do not have weapon properties.
You are making a ranged weapon attack with it, but it is not a weapon and does not have the thrown property.
Yeah, I know, bad choice of words from the authors. If they'd asked me I would have suggested quite different terms. But they didn't. :-)
You can split hairs over weapon types if you want, but you'll never get me to agree that an improvised weapon should not be called an improvised weapon because that's what the game calls it. And regardless of what properties it does or does not have, if you throw it, it has been thrown. Calling it a thrown improvised weapon is an accurate description of the thing that is being described :)
The notion that using a melee weapon as an improvised weapon loose it's properties offset some limit;
Throwing a glaive, greataxe, greatclub, greatsword. halberd, maul or pike doesn't requires two hands when you attack with it.
Creatures that are Small or Tiny don't have disadvantage on attack rolls when throwing a glaive, greataxe, greatsword. halberd, maul or pike.
Throwing a lance doesn't requires two hands when you aren't mounted and don't have disadvantage when you throw it to attack a target within 5 feet of you.
Throwing a lance doesn't requires two hands when you aren't mounted and don't have disadvantage when you throw it to attack a target within 5 feet of you.
Well, you would. Just for a completely different reason unless you had crossbow expert which is funny to think about.
A melee weapon without the thrown property used to make a ranged weapon attack or vice versa RAW deals 1d4 damage, plus dex or strength depending on if it's ranged or not.
You could in theory throw a melee weapon within 5 feet but there's no reason to do so. It would become improvised and then be a worse weapon
First things first, establishing terminology so we're all on the same page regarding discussion:
So all weapons are classified as either Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons. A "Ranged Weapon Attack" or "Melee Weapon Attack" does NOT mean "attack with a ranged weapon" or "attack with a melee weapon". For an example of where this matters, look at majority of thrown weapons. Weapons like the dagger and Handaxe are classified as Melee weapons, but they have the thrown property. This means you can throw them to make a ranged weapon attack, but they're still melee weapons. This means that something like the archery fighting style doesn't apply when you throw a Handaxe because it's not a ranged weapon, even though you're performing a ranged weapon attack. This is explicitly stated in the Player's Handbook. A weapon like the Dart is a ranged weapon with the thrown property, so it still counts for the archery fighting style.
With that out of the way here's a question about clarity in the rules: how does this function with improvised weapons?
I don't just mean random items type of improvised weapons, but switching the use of regular weapons. It is stated that if you were to use a Longbow to make a melee weapon attack, it would count as an improvised weapon and deal 1d4 damage. You can also throw a melee weapon that doesn't have the thrown property and get the same result. For the purposes of something like the archery fighting style, which is it? Is the Longbow still a ranged weapon or does it become a melee weapon when you turn it into an improvised weapon to do an improvised melee weapon attack? If it stays a ranged weapon, the archery fighting style applies and you could in theory use sharpshooter. If it doesn't, you could then use Great Weapon Master since Longbow has the heavy property. Is it both? Can you use GWM and SS on the same attack if you use a Longbow as an improvised melee weapon?
I know this would require proficiency in improvised weapons, so let's assume the character has the Tavern Brawler feat.
My personal ruling would be that it can be either but not both at the same time. There are benefits both ways to it being a melee or ranged weapon and I think the best way to balance it would be allowing both to work, just not at the same time. For example, Two Weapon Fighting requires using two light melee weapons. If someone had two Hand Crossbows they could choose to use them as improvised melee weapons and engage in two weapon fighting, and for that turn they would be melee weapons. So they wouldn't be able to apply the archery fighting style or Sharpshooter feat, but they can take their bonus action attack with the offhand crossbow (obviously they have to do this as a melee weapon attack). Conversely, they could choose to classify them still as ranged weapons then make a improvised melee weapon attack with just one, because they don't qualify for two weapon fighting, but then they can use Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter.
I would say it is neither. It’s an improvised weapon that you are making a melee or ranged attack. So Archery fighting style wouldn’t help when using a longbow for a melee attack. And neither would a feature that called for a melee or ranged weapon. At least that’s how I would rule it.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
An improvised weapons has no melee or ranged classification because it's not a weapon, but an object used as one to make a melee or ranged attack with. If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon, then the weapon has it's original classification.
Tweets are not RAW, but regarding Rules as Intended, improvised weapons do not carry their weapon properties. You can make a melee weapon attack with a longbow, but it is a ranged weapon when used as intended, and it is an improvised weapon when used for melee. I don't believe there is any configuration in which a longbow is an actual melee weapon, and so the sharpshooter feat will never give an adjustment to your results when using the longbow to make a melee weapon attack.
This also means you can make a one-handed melee weapon attack using the longbow as an improvised weapon, even though it has the two-handed weapon property.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So would you allow the Archery fighting style to give you +2 to hit when using it as a melee weapon?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That tweet from JC is in response to someone asking if you could use GWM and SS at the same time for +20 damage when smacking someone with a longbow, his response that it doesn't carry over it's original properties isn't really relevant because whether a weapon is ranged or melee isn't a property. The Heavy property of a Longbow is a property, losing it would make it invalid for GWM, if it was ruled to now be a melee weapon when used to make an improvised melee weapon attack. However since SS's only requirement is that the weapon in question be ranged, it's still not entirely clear. It seems to me it could be ruled either way, but if it were ruled to now be a melee weapon it would no longer be heavy and thus not apply for GWM.
Except there is no such thing as an improvised thrown weapon. Every weapon is classified as either ranged or melee as per the PHB. It has to be one of them.
If I throw a table leg at someone, would it be incorrect to call it an improvised weapon? Would it be incorrect to call it thrown? Even though a table leg is neither a melee weapon nor a ranged weapon, the rules still refer to it as an improvised weapon. And if you throw it, it's an improvised thrown weapon, or a thrown improvised weapon, or an improvised weapon that has been thrown. I think the label is accurate, even if you prefer not to make the distinction.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No i wouldn't allow it, as i don't ithink its ntended.
For those interested, here's a Dragon Talk: Sage Advice podcast on the subject of improvised weapons
The Dev reiterate that a weapon used as an improvised weapon doesn't have it's properties. Note that this is different than how it's classified. The distinction to keep in mind is that using say a rapier as an improvised weapon to make a ranged attack no longer have the finesse property, Is it still a melee weapon, this is how it's classified? This the rule don't explicitly rule out. Saying it's not because a melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance., then it would infer that throwing a dagger is a ranged weapon, when it's not, remaining a melee weapon despite how it's used.
So it's murky and there is a couple of Q&A on X going for or against it like TexasDevin posted, on one such as this Does throwing a weapon benefit from dueling, archery, or neither? (sageadvice.eu)
Call it an improvised weapon? Yes, that's exactly what it does.
Call it thrown? No. Improvised weapons do not have weapon properties.
You are making a ranged weapon attack with it, but it is not a weapon and does not have the thrown property.
Yeah, I know, bad choice of words from the authors. If they'd asked me I would have suggested quite different terms. But they didn't. :-)
You can split hairs over weapon types if you want, but you'll never get me to agree that an improvised weapon should not be called an improvised weapon because that's what the game calls it. And regardless of what properties it does or does not have, if you throw it, it has been thrown. Calling it a thrown improvised weapon is an accurate description of the thing that is being described :)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The notion that using a melee weapon as an improvised weapon loose it's properties offset some limit;
Throwing a glaive, greataxe, greatclub, greatsword. halberd, maul or pike doesn't requires two hands when you attack with it.
Creatures that are Small or Tiny don't have disadvantage on attack rolls when throwing a glaive, greataxe, greatsword. halberd, maul or pike.
Throwing a lance doesn't requires two hands when you aren't mounted and don't have disadvantage when you throw it to attack a target within 5 feet of you.
Well, you would. Just for a completely different reason unless you had crossbow expert which is funny to think about.
Yeah you would have disadvantage for making a Ranged Attacks in Close Combat not as a result from the Lance's Special property.
How far can an object be thrown in D&D?
is 5 or 10 feet considered Close Quarters Combat?
would an object used as an Improvised Weapon not be considered a close replica of a similar type weapon, given relative difference between the two?
you get the damage type, but IMHO that’s about it.
A melee weapon without the thrown property used to make a ranged weapon attack or vice versa RAW deals 1d4 damage, plus dex or strength depending on if it's ranged or not.
You could in theory throw a melee weapon within 5 feet but there's no reason to do so. It would become improvised and then be a worse weapon
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons
Was the second paragraph a general statement about how close an Improvised Weapon can be to a similar type, or an example?
1. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
2. Close quarter means within 5 feet
3. It could at the DM's option.
4. An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage. The DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object.
I mean, given we get some measure of compatibility, the fair trade of no feature additions in a pinch is fine by me.
Cast-Iron frying pan as a heavy bludgeoning war hammer sounds fun.
THOOOONG!?!?!?!