When multi classing, do the ability score increases happen at character levels or class levels? Meaning if I multi class at 4th level so I'm a 3rd level x/1st level y do I get 2 points to increase my ability scores or do I get them when I hit 5th level and become a 4th level x/1st level y?
For the most part it doesn't matter much as almost every class gets ability score increases at 4th and 8th, etc. What would slow you down is if you don't take even class levels. Also some classes get more increases and so might be easier to dip into and not lose bonuses.
I'm not sure if this thread is still being tracked by the original poster; however, I thought this would be the best place to input my Feat test findings in terms of multiclassing...
So, with some testing I found that if you are going to multiclass, it would be best to multiclass with a fighter as that class has a base of 7 Ability Score Increases / Feats options; all the other classes only have 6. For the most bang for your buck, I found that even though it will take a long time before your first ASI; and you are planning on 3 classes...then raise each one to level 3 before you go to 4th level for any of them, then you would raise each one at Character levels 10-12 and each time get the ASI or Feats if they are allowed in your game.
Something else I found is, if you want the most ASI or Feat options, then do not multiclass! You will only get 5 ASI / Feat options when maxing out your Character level to 20. If your goal is to have the most ASI you can, then choose fighter and don't multiclass as it has seven ASI's total. If you want to multiclass and have six ASI like a standard class does, Fighter either has to be your primary if you only have two classes or the Fighter needs to be level 8 with 1 other class at 8 and 1 at 4, for example Sorcerer 4th level/Fighter 8th Level/Ranger 8th Level. Any other combination will only give you 5 for example Paladin Level 8/Fighter Level 6/Ranger Level 6.
I don't know if this was something that was over looked when they designed 5e, or if they thought no one would ever multiclass that many options, but it seems with out the fighter class when multiclassing and having Fighter to at least Level 8 even if you only choose two classes say Paladin and Monk, you only get 5 ASI as opposed to the 6 you would normally get for not multiclassing.
Now I know, some are going to say that is the balance factor in the game, but if I build a Sorcerer Lever 4/Fighter Level 8/Ranger Level 8, then I am getting 6 ASI if I choose no Feat options, and I am getting Two Fighting Styles and a lot of bonuses such as magic while wearing armor etc.
My main reason for posting this is so people that want the ASI information for Multiclassing have it!
I think what you bring up is why it's really important to look at not only break points of classes where you get the goods without having to go too far but also how that impacts your ASI progression. Some classes and class combos can be SAD while others, like the Sorc/Fig/Rang you mention, would be insanely MAD which can also impact you choice. Making a warlock/bard/sorcerer you can probably afford to give up some ASIs as Cha is going to be the stat you really care about with not much concern over the rest. Whereas making a Bard/Fig/Wiz you're gonna be spread pretty thin with your stats.
Lol, say I'm a level 3 Warrior/Level 7 Rogue...with my last level in Fighter that gave me the Champion Archetype. So as a level 10 character, I've really only had 1 ASI/Feat opportunities. 2 more levels (if I spread them out) and I should have a very nice bump with either 2 ASIs or 2 Feats (or a mix). Get to level 5 Fighter for Extra Attack. Level 6 Fighter gets another ASI/Feat.
Something else I found is, if you want the most ASI or Feat options, then do not multiclass! You will only get 5 ASI / Feat options when maxing out your Character level to 20. If your goal is to have the most ASI you can, then choose fighter and don't multiclass as it has seven ASI's total. If you want to multiclass and have six ASI like a standard class does, Fighter either has to be your primary if you only have two classes or the Fighter needs to be level 8 with 1 other class at 8 and 1 at 4, for example Sorcerer 4th level/Fighter 8th Level/Ranger 8th Level. Any other combination will only give you 5 for example Paladin Level 8/Fighter Level 6/Ranger Level 6.
SIngleclassed Rogues get 6 ASI's by level 19. All the other classes get 5.
So, with some testing I found that if you are going to multiclass, it would be best to multiclass with a fighter as that class has a base of 7 Ability Score Increases / Feats options; all the other classes only have 6.
Rogues have 6. Other classes have 5. Fighter isn't any different when it comes to multiclassing and ASIs.
For the most bang for your buck, I found that even though it will take a long time before your first ASI; and you are planning on 3 classes...then raise each one to level 3 before you go to 4th level for any of them, then you would raise each one at Character levels 10-12 and each time get the ASI or Feats if they are allowed in your game.
In general, that's a terrible plan. You're getting to 10th level without a single ASI or Extra Attack (for the melee classes) or 3rd level spells (for spellcasting classes). You're going to be at a severe disadvantage compared to melee characters that have already had 2-3 ASI or spellcasters with 5th level spells.
Something else I found is, if you want the most ASI or Feat options, then do not multiclass! You will only get 5 ASI / Feat options when maxing out your Character level to 20. If your goal is to have the most ASI you can, then choose fighter and don't multiclass as it has seven ASI's total. If you want to multiclass and have six ASI like a standard class does, Fighter either has to be your primary if you only have two classes or the Fighter needs to be level 8 with 1 other class at 8 and 1 at 4, for example Sorcerer 4th level/Fighter 8th Level/Ranger 8th Level. Any other combination will only give you 5 for example Paladin Level 8/Fighter Level 6/Ranger Level 6.
You don't always lose an ASI multiclassing. It depends on how many you're losing off the top of your highest class's list and how many you're getting back from your lower level classes:
19 X/1 Y: X's ASIs
17-18 X/2-3 Y: X's ASIs - 1
16 X/4 Y: X's ASIs
15 X/5 Y: X's ASIs -1
14 X/6 Y (not Fighter): X's ASIs - 1
14 X/6 Fighter: X's ASIs
13 X (not Fighter)/7 Y: X's ASIs - 1
13 Fighter/7 Y: 5 ASIs (Fighter's ASIs - 2)
12 X (not Fighter)/8 Y: X's ASIs - 0
12 X/8 Fighter: X's ASIs + 1 (note that this brings 12 Rogue/8 Fighter up to 7)
12 Fighter/8 Y: 6 ASIs (Fighter's ASIs - 1)
...you get the picture.
But looking purely at the ASIs isn't a great way of looking at multiclassing, as you'll see shortly.
I don't know if this was something that was over looked when they designed 5e, or if they thought no one would ever multiclass that many options, but it seems with out the fighter class when multiclassing and having Fighter to at least Level 8 even if you only choose two classes say Paladin and Monk, you only get 5 ASI as opposed to the 6 you would normally get for not multiclassing.
If you multiclass Fighter, Paladin and Monk, you're going to need 13 STR, DEX, WIS AND CHA, not to mention missing out on the better, higher-level features of each. Combinations involving more than 2 classes that are actually effective are rare.
Now I know, some are going to say that is the balance factor in the game, but if I build a Sorcerer Lever 4/Fighter Level 8/Ranger Level 8, then I am getting 6 ASI if I choose no Feat options, and I am getting Two Fighting Styles and a lot of bonuses such as magic while wearing armor etc.
Yes, but you're stuck with only 4 sorcery points, no 3rd level spells, no 3rd attack or Multiattack, no Indomitable, and you need 13 DEX, 13 WIS and 13 CHA.
Something else I found is, if you want the most ASI or Feat options, then do not multiclass! You will only get 5 ASI / Feat options when maxing out your Character level to 20. If your goal is to have the most ASI you can, then choose fighter and don't multiclass as it has seven ASI's total. If you want to multiclass and have six ASI like a standard class does, Fighter either has to be your primary if you only have two classes or the Fighter needs to be level 8 with 1 other class at 8 and 1 at 4, for example Sorcerer 4th level/Fighter 8th Level/Ranger 8th Level. Any other combination will only give you 5 for example Paladin Level 8/Fighter Level 6/Ranger Level 6.
SIngleclassed Rogues get 6 ASI's by level 19. All the other classes get 5.
Except fighters, which get 7.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
So, how DO ability score increases work with multiclassing?
-New D&D Player
ASI's are class features. Meaning you only get them when one of your class levels would give you one.
For an example a 6th level character that has multiclassed into 3 levels in Fighter and 3 levels of Rogue hasn't recieved any ASI's - because neither of those 2 classes get any until class level 4. But when the character hits character level 7 and chooses to increase Fighter to 4th level - they get an ASI - because Fighters get an ASI at level 4. Then at character level 8 they can choose to take a 4th level in Rogue and get another ASI because Rogue's get an ASI at level 4.
I have found that for multiclassing and worrying about ASI's, you're best off only taking a 4 level dip into a different class. In the event you're part of a long campaign aiming for level 20, a 4 level dip only costs the level 19 ASI (for rogues), but lets you have the level 4 ASI of the second class, thus, not actually costing anything other than high level subclass features.
Losing out on ASI's is not an oversight on the part of the development team. When you take a second class, you gain proficiencies and subclass features that may synergise well with your original class (eg: Rogue/Paladin, gaining the ability to Smite on a Sneak Attack). The whole thing is intended to actually maintain some stumbled of balance.
If you're worried about losing out on Feats, while multiclassing, during a long campaign, talk to your DM about possibly rewarding characters with them between high levels. This is an option to DM's that seems to often be overlooked or forgotten, but it can help keep players motivated and incentivised.
You don't have to aim for anything specific either. Perhaps your character has been spending a lot of time with the party wizard, you might be awarded Magic Initiate... Been hiding out in the shadows for 2 years of play time? BOOM! Enjoy Skulker, you sneaky creep. Just remember, if you thought you'd get to choose your Feats gained in this way, you'd be wrong. 😅
Ultimately, if you're optimising, aiming for the "best" build (spoiler alert, they don't exist, your DM should be making encounters based around the party strength, thus, you only make the encounters harder by making a "strong" character) you should only aim to multiclass by 4 levels.
So, there is a very specific use case I noticed for this where the class-level/character-level distinction has a big impact:
If you're an 8th-level Order of the Profane Soul Blood Hunter, and then you take 1 level in Warlock, you get to add (not re-allocate) 1/3-rounded-down of your BH levels to Warlock. That makes you an 8th-level Blood Hunter and a 3rd-level Warlock. At your next level-up, if you take your 9th BH level, the 1/3-rounded-down moves from 2 to 3, which puts you at 4 Warlock levels. Taking a single dip to Warlock by level 9 gives you 4 total levels in that class.
Now, while you'd otherwise be a 10th-level character, you've already received 3 ASIs/feats. Taking that first warlock level puts you one level behind pace for the blood hunter ASIs, but you actually get there quicker with the shared levels.
How likely is it that this incredibly specific scenario ever comes up? Well, one of my players is doing it right now, so it's not zero and they are about to become very, very powerful.
No that's not how that works. You use your combined calculated level to determine spell slots, cantrips known and spell slot level - not all class features. A level 10 character who is Profane Soul BH 8 and Warlock 2 has 2 ASI's not 3 - because the Warlock is still level 2.
Blood Hunter Multiclassing with Warlock If multiclassing Order of the Profane Soul with Warlock levels, add a third of your blood hunter levels (rounded down) to your Warlock level and consult the Warlock progression table in the Player’s Handbookfor total Spell Slots, Cantrips known, and Spell Slot Level.
That makes sense! I guess it depends on where you're supposed to interpret the "and" and the "for" in that sentence. It could be phrased:
If multiclassing Order of the Profane Soul with Warlock levels, add a third of your blood hunter levels (rounded down) to your Warlock level for total Spell Slots, Cantrips known, and Spell Slot Level and consult the Warlock progression table in the Player’s Handbook.
But it isn't. I read it as "add 1/3 of your Blood Hunter levels, and also to consult the Warlock progression table for magic stuff." If you're supposed to stay Warlock 1 but have the spell slots, cantrips, and spell slot level of a Warlock 3 (then Warlock 4 after reaching Blood Hunter 9), then it isn't easy at all to run that character on D&D Beyond. Does it feel super overpowered? Absolutely, but it wouldn't be the first multiclass synergy that slams both fists on the scales. It's totally possible that it's just a shortcoming in the integration of the CR content, but the Class Selection page is aware there are multiclass interactions with those features and it doesn't fulfill them in accordance with what you're saying.
It definitely makes sense to not apply the levels to all class features like additional hit dice and stuff, and I'm sure those particular features were specified for a reason. D&D Beyond doesn't let you select 2nd-level spells for a Level 1 Fiend Warlock, though, even multiclassed with an Order of the Profane Soul Blood Hunter, and it doesn't give the extra spell slots. It would require a lot of effort to run that character the right way, so maybe that very particular multiclassing description should be dropped entirely.
If it increased your Warlock level there would be no need to refer specifically to spell slots or cantrips. You would just get them by being a higher level Warlock.
What that feature is specifically doing is exactly the same thing as multiclassing with Spellcasting classes does - except in RAW there's no rule for multiclassing Pact Magic - so it had to be added for the Blood Hunter.
It is worded differently - and probably poorly - but then the Blood Hunter is homebrew.
I mean Emmber is exactly right. It sounds like you need to re-examine the multiclassing chapter. The Profane Soul works like an Eldritch Knight does with wizard.
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When multi classing, do the ability score increases happen at character levels or class levels? Meaning if I multi class at 4th level so I'm a 3rd level x/1st level y do I get 2 points to increase my ability scores or do I get them when I hit 5th level and become a 4th level x/1st level y?
Thanks!!
Professional computer geek
The ability score improvement feature is triggered at the class level.
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/03/ability-score-improvements-in-multiclass/
It is a class feature, not a character feature. The opposite happens for the proficiency bonus.
Professional computer geek
For the most part it doesn't matter much as almost every class gets ability score increases at 4th and 8th, etc. What would slow you down is if you don't take even class levels. Also some classes get more increases and so might be easier to dip into and not lose bonuses.
I'm not sure if this thread is still being tracked by the original poster; however, I thought this would be the best place to input my Feat test findings in terms of multiclassing...
So, with some testing I found that if you are going to multiclass, it would be best to multiclass with a fighter as that class has a base of 7 Ability Score Increases / Feats options; all the other classes only have 6. For the most bang for your buck, I found that even though it will take a long time before your first ASI; and you are planning on 3 classes...then raise each one to level 3 before you go to 4th level for any of them, then you would raise each one at Character levels 10-12 and each time get the ASI or Feats if they are allowed in your game.
Something else I found is, if you want the most ASI or Feat options, then do not multiclass! You will only get 5 ASI / Feat options when maxing out your Character level to 20. If your goal is to have the most ASI you can, then choose fighter and don't multiclass as it has seven ASI's total. If you want to multiclass and have six ASI like a standard class does, Fighter either has to be your primary if you only have two classes or the Fighter needs to be level 8 with 1 other class at 8 and 1 at 4, for example Sorcerer 4th level/Fighter 8th Level/Ranger 8th Level. Any other combination will only give you 5 for example Paladin Level 8/Fighter Level 6/Ranger Level 6.
I don't know if this was something that was over looked when they designed 5e, or if they thought no one would ever multiclass that many options, but it seems with out the fighter class when multiclassing and having Fighter to at least Level 8 even if you only choose two classes say Paladin and Monk, you only get 5 ASI as opposed to the 6 you would normally get for not multiclassing.
Now I know, some are going to say that is the balance factor in the game, but if I build a Sorcerer Lever 4/Fighter Level 8/Ranger Level 8, then I am getting 6 ASI if I choose no Feat options, and I am getting Two Fighting Styles and a lot of bonuses such as magic while wearing armor etc.
My main reason for posting this is so people that want the ASI information for Multiclassing have it!
I think what you bring up is why it's really important to look at not only break points of classes where you get the goods without having to go too far but also how that impacts your ASI progression. Some classes and class combos can be SAD while others, like the Sorc/Fig/Rang you mention, would be insanely MAD which can also impact you choice. Making a warlock/bard/sorcerer you can probably afford to give up some ASIs as Cha is going to be the stat you really care about with not much concern over the rest. Whereas making a Bard/Fig/Wiz you're gonna be spread pretty thin with your stats.
Lol, say I'm a level 3 Warrior/Level 7 Rogue...with my last level in Fighter that gave me the Champion Archetype. So as a level 10 character, I've really only had 1 ASI/Feat opportunities. 2 more levels (if I spread them out) and I should have a very nice bump with either 2 ASIs or 2 Feats (or a mix). Get to level 5 Fighter for Extra Attack. Level 6 Fighter gets another ASI/Feat.
Totally class dependent.
I did something similar with a Fig/Rog. I went Fig 2, Rog 3, Fig 6, Rog 4, Fig 8. Got 4 ASIs within 5 levels of each other.
Rogues have 6. Other classes have 5. Fighter isn't any different when it comes to multiclassing and ASIs.
In general, that's a terrible plan. You're getting to 10th level without a single ASI or Extra Attack (for the melee classes) or 3rd level spells (for spellcasting classes). You're going to be at a severe disadvantage compared to melee characters that have already had 2-3 ASI or spellcasters with 5th level spells.
You don't always lose an ASI multiclassing. It depends on how many you're losing off the top of your highest class's list and how many you're getting back from your lower level classes:
...you get the picture.
But looking purely at the ASIs isn't a great way of looking at multiclassing, as you'll see shortly.
If you multiclass Fighter, Paladin and Monk, you're going to need 13 STR, DEX, WIS AND CHA, not to mention missing out on the better, higher-level features of each. Combinations involving more than 2 classes that are actually effective are rare.
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So, how DO ability score increases work with multiclassing?
-New D&D Player
I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
ASI's are class features. Meaning you only get them when one of your class levels would give you one.
For an example a 6th level character that has multiclassed into 3 levels in Fighter and 3 levels of Rogue hasn't recieved any ASI's - because neither of those 2 classes get any until class level 4.
But when the character hits character level 7 and chooses to increase Fighter to 4th level - they get an ASI - because Fighters get an ASI at level 4.
Then at character level 8 they can choose to take a 4th level in Rogue and get another ASI because Rogue's get an ASI at level 4.
That make sense?
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I have found that for multiclassing and worrying about ASI's, you're best off only taking a 4 level dip into a different class. In the event you're part of a long campaign aiming for level 20, a 4 level dip only costs the level 19 ASI (for rogues), but lets you have the level 4 ASI of the second class, thus, not actually costing anything other than high level subclass features.
Losing out on ASI's is not an oversight on the part of the development team. When you take a second class, you gain proficiencies and subclass features that may synergise well with your original class (eg: Rogue/Paladin, gaining the ability to Smite on a Sneak Attack). The whole thing is intended to actually maintain some stumbled of balance.
If you're worried about losing out on Feats, while multiclassing, during a long campaign, talk to your DM about possibly rewarding characters with them between high levels. This is an option to DM's that seems to often be overlooked or forgotten, but it can help keep players motivated and incentivised.
You don't have to aim for anything specific either. Perhaps your character has been spending a lot of time with the party wizard, you might be awarded Magic Initiate... Been hiding out in the shadows for 2 years of play time? BOOM! Enjoy Skulker, you sneaky creep. Just remember, if you thought you'd get to choose your Feats gained in this way, you'd be wrong. 😅
Ultimately, if you're optimising, aiming for the "best" build (spoiler alert, they don't exist, your DM should be making encounters based around the party strength, thus, you only make the encounters harder by making a "strong" character) you should only aim to multiclass by 4 levels.
That rule kinda sucks tbh 😕
Neeevermind!
No that's not how that works. You use your combined calculated level to determine spell slots, cantrips known and spell slot level - not all class features. A level 10 character who is Profane Soul BH 8 and Warlock 2 has 2 ASI's not 3 - because the Warlock is still level 2.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
That makes sense! I guess it depends on where you're supposed to interpret the "and" and the "for" in that sentence. It could be phrased:
But it isn't. I read it as "add 1/3 of your Blood Hunter levels, and also to consult the Warlock progression table for magic stuff." If you're supposed to stay Warlock 1 but have the spell slots, cantrips, and spell slot level of a Warlock 3 (then Warlock 4 after reaching Blood Hunter 9), then it isn't easy at all to run that character on D&D Beyond. Does it feel super overpowered? Absolutely, but it wouldn't be the first multiclass synergy that slams both fists on the scales. It's totally possible that it's just a shortcoming in the integration of the CR content, but the Class Selection page is aware there are multiclass interactions with those features and it doesn't fulfill them in accordance with what you're saying.
It definitely makes sense to not apply the levels to all class features like additional hit dice and stuff, and I'm sure those particular features were specified for a reason. D&D Beyond doesn't let you select 2nd-level spells for a Level 1 Fiend Warlock, though, even multiclassed with an Order of the Profane Soul Blood Hunter, and it doesn't give the extra spell slots. It would require a lot of effort to run that character the right way, so maybe that very particular multiclassing description should be dropped entirely.
If it increased your Warlock level there would be no need to refer specifically to spell slots or cantrips. You would just get them by being a higher level Warlock.
What that feature is specifically doing is exactly the same thing as multiclassing with Spellcasting classes does - except in RAW there's no rule for multiclassing Pact Magic - so it had to be added for the Blood Hunter.
It is worded differently - and probably poorly - but then the Blood Hunter is homebrew.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
I mean Emmber is exactly right. It sounds like you need to re-examine the multiclassing chapter. The Profane Soul works like an Eldritch Knight does with wizard.