in my personal opinion the new subclass rules make absolutely no sense because there are several classes that have their subclasses determined by things that already happened BEFORE the beginning of the adventure like Warlocks(they wouldn't have magic if they didn't make a pact), Paladins(they literally gain their powers from their oaths), and Sorcerers(I shouldn't have to explain why a class that is mostly about having magic in their DNA should already have access to their subclass at level 1) so I think every class should have their subclasses available to them at level 1
I have 3 things to say to the people who replied
1. the fact that warlocks choose their patron at level 3 means they didn't have one and they shouldn't have any magic at all because they don't have a patron to give them magic in other words no patron=no magic
2. a paladin who hasn't sworn an oath is NOT a paladin(which is why I believe paladins should have their oath at level 1 and it was stupid of WotC to make it so paladins swore their oaths at level 3 it made no sense then and it makes no sense now) and if they are just "training to be paladins" or "aspiring to be paladins" until level 3 then they aren't paladins yet and shouldn't unlock any paladin spells until level 3
3. last I checked you can't choose your genetics unless some genetic modification crap is involved so a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer(a sorcerer subclass known for growing dragon scales after they hit puberty) would have to have been one from the beginning same thing with divine soul sorcerer
no amount of rationalization will make the new rules make any sense
Mechanically, the old approach often meant some subclasses were unreasonably good 1 level dips for multiclassing (looking at you, Hexblade.) And because subclasses only give features at certain levels, the game designers weren't able to defer an extra good subclass feature to 2nd or 3rd level.
Narratively, I don't think the new rules are too hard to rationalize. 1st and 2nd level characters are still learning the absolute basics of their class (e.g. a 1st level monk doesn't have Ki/Focus abilities yet, 1st level paladins can't Channel Divinity.) So maybe a 1st level warlock or sorcerer simply isn't practiced enough to make use of their sorcerous origin or patron's particular gifts yet.
Besides, the game's designers clearly think it's possible to manifest just a bit of sorcery or warlock powers since they added the Metamagic Adept and Eldritch Adept feats for that in Tasha's Caudron of Everything.
As InquisitiveCoder said, the big issue was how powerful certain level 1 level dips were, there is nothing at level 1 stopping you saying your character is a cleric of Torm, a Devotion Paladin devoted to Bahamut or that they signed a pact with a devil, just those differences aren't seen until the level 3 selection.
In addition to the above, the designers have said they were trying to help new players. Subclass is one of the biggest choices you make, and forcing someone to do that at character creation could lock them in to a choice when they don’t really understand what’s going on.
Narratively, I’ve been thinking about it, and it could really be interesting. It gives the player and DM a chance to role play a major event, instead of it happening off camera, before everything starts. So the warlock meets their patron, or the cleric receives a vision from their god, etc. It can really make it much more impactful.
Side note, the paladin oath at 3rd level is not new. It’s been that way since 5e started.
The way we do it in my game is that until level 3 you haven't earned the right to wield the power or learned enough to specialize. Like you signed a deal with a patron/pledged yourself to a god, but you haven't proven that you are worthy to wield power in their name or worth investing in.
I also really like what Xalthu said, like your connection develops over time, like you get an inkling but the patron/god doesn't reveal themselves to you until lvl 3.
The rest are pretty simple, you haven't learned the basics yet and so you can't specialize/unlock inner talent
@beastlyone I had the same worries as you when they officially moved the subclasses to 3rd level, but I quickly saw it as a good change with more pros than cons.
You mentioned the Paladin in your post, but the 2014 Paladin picks their Oath at 3rd level, so why not other classes? Same goes for the 2014 Fighter, the 2014 Ranger’s Archetype, and some other 2014 classes.
It's fun to work on your character from the start, even if it takes extra effort to build their story and origin. Then, thanks to the 2024 rule changes, you get to shape their path from level 1 to 3 and beyond.
Anyway, if this change is a big issue for some DMs, they can always decide to have players start at level 3.
I feel like some classes just don't make sense at 3rd level. Warlock at 1st level:"Oh yeah I made a pact with an extra planar entity." The DM: "Who?" Warlock:"I don't know, even though every single one of my class features relies on my patrons support" Same with Sorcerer.
I'm skeptical that would even happen (I imagine most people that pick up Warlock do so because they really like the idea of having X as a patron) but if it did, how does that affect the DM any more than, say, players picking a certain background for the feat but fleshing out absolutely nothing about their backstory? It's perfectly fine to make things up as you go.
hey Zakana how does that work for sorcerers(a class where most of its subclasses are determined by the individuals genetics)? last I checked you cant choose or "specialize" when it comes to your dna unless some genetic modification crap is in play
I feel like some classes just don't make sense at 3rd level. Warlock at 1st level:"Oh yeah I made a pact with an extra planar entity." The DM: "Who?" Warlock:"I don't know, even though every single one of my class features relies on my patrons support" Same with Sorcerer.
Warlock at 1st level: "Oh yeah, I made a pact with an extra planar entity." The DM: "Who?" Warlock at 1st level: "Asmodeus." The DM: "How come you don't have the level 3 class features granted by the Fiend subclass?" Warlock at 1st level: "Because I'm not level 3 yet."
So, my thoughts on this have mostly been mentioned above. The 1st-2nd level character has inklings of their powers, but the effects of the subclass aren't manifested yet. Narratively, there's nothing wrong with saying "this warlock made a deal with an angel to heal others and deliver divine justice" and they only get the subclass impact once they've practiced with the basics of their power.
Classes and the justifications:
Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue - Simple. Takes practice in the craft to develop specialized skills. Bard - Already at level 3, this is when the college training starts. Cleric - Deity begins granting more specialized power to faithful devotees. Druid - Becomes able to tap into more focused nature magic. Paladin - Already at level 3, oath takes full effect as paladin is no longer a trainee-rank. Sorcerer - After working with basics of innate magic, bloodline begins to fully manifest in their magic. Warlock - Patron grants additional power, previously withheld because let's face it, how many people would make a deal with an entity then try to run off with that power? Wizard - Already studies magic, this is where general study becomes focused study, like going from an Associate's to a Bachelor's degree.
hey Zakana how does that work for sorcerers(a class where most of its subclasses are determined by the individuals genetics)? last I checked you cant choose or "specialize" when it comes to your dna unless some genetic modification crap is in play
The PHB says: "As Sorcerers master their innate magic, they grow more attuned to its origin, developing distinct powers that reflect its source." That's one way to do it.
Warlock - Patron grants additional power, previously withheld because let's face it, how many people would make a deal with an entity then try to run off with that power?
but the fact that they don't have a patron until level 3 means they either signed a contract with some entity without any idea as to what they made the deal with(which is very unlikely since I'm pretty sure I would notice the difference between a devil and a hag) OR they never signed a contract of any kind meaning they are receiving power from someone they have never met or heard of... and I don't think anyone would just gift the awesome power of eldritch blast to some random nobody in hopes that they will somehow run into one another at a later date
and I am fairly certain there are several different types of creatures that prevent people from "running off with" the powers that were granted to them
Warlock - Patron grants additional power, previously withheld because let's face it, how many people would make a deal with an entity then try to run off with that power?
but the fact that they don't have a patron until level 3 means they either signed a contract with some entity without any idea as to what they made the deal with(which is very unlikely since I'm pretty sure I would notice the difference between a devil and a hag) OR they never signed a contract of any kind meaning they are receiving power from someone they have never met or heard of... and I don't think anyone would just gift the awesome power of eldritch blast to some random nobody in hopes that they will somehow run into one another at a later date
and I am fairly certain there are several different types of creatures that prevent people from "running off with" the powers that were granted to them
Where does it ever say that you only gain your patron at 3rd level? That's when you gain your subclass. That doesn't mean there's no patron involved until then. It just means the patron-specific power doesn't manifest until then.
Warlock - Patron grants additional power, previously withheld because let's face it, how many people would make a deal with an entity then try to run off with that power?
but the fact that they don't have a patron until level 3 means they either signed a contract with some entity without any idea as to what they made the deal with(which is very unlikely since I'm pretty sure I would notice the difference between a devil and a hag) OR they never signed a contract of any kind meaning they are receiving power from someone they have never met or heard of... and I don't think anyone would just gift the awesome power of eldritch blast to some random nobody in hopes that they will somehow run into one another at a later date
and I am fairly certain there are several different types of creatures that prevent people from "running off with" the powers that were granted to them
Where does it ever say that you only gain your patron at 3rd level? That's when you gain your subclass. That doesn't mean there's no patron involved until then. It just means the patron-specific power doesn't manifest until then.
This. 100% this. No subclass =/= no patron. I don't know where so many people got this idea from, but it's not in the book, or interviews with Jeremy Crawford, or anything. I'm genuinely curious, why is this idea so widespread?
This. 100% this. No subclass =/= no patron. I don't know where so many people got this idea from, but it's not in the book, or interviews with Jeremy Crawford, or anything. I'm genuinely curious, why is this idea so widespread?
I mean, it's probably due to the last 10 years having the subclass at 1st level and the powers being tied to the patron. It's just a matter of shifting perspective on it.
I think levels 1 and 2 are just apprentice, you are in the way of discovering your vocation within your class, so have basic features but lack others. That's why they emphasized to start at level 3 for a true trained starting character, when it finished their base as seems a class really starting level is 3 when you get finally a way to develop.
For Warlock, as mentioned, no subclass means you have not, just you are not significant enough to get its attention yet. In game this means the player can delay the choice, the DM could force the player to get one at first level (i.e. for multiclassing into Warlock) forcing the subclass later, but who cares is not so important just let the player choose if reach Warlock level 3.
There are many threads that discuss this and examples of how it works have been given.
Sorcerer is easy. Just like a baby’s eyes can change color over time, you may have a genetic connection to the draconic but it doesn’t start manifesting (as subclass features) until level 3. The DNA, if that’s how your sorcerer got their abilities, is there, you eyes (or scaly skin) didn’t change yet.
Paladin always got their oath at 3rd so no change there. And clerics, well, there are laypeople devoted to deities and they have no character levels so why can’t a cleric? And they don’t choose their deity at 3rd level, the deity just bestows upon the cleric a certain aspect of their power (domains) once they prove themselves, as an example.
Warlocks dabble in the occult or seek forbidden lore and incantations and can gain their spellcasting and invocations that way. Maybe an entity is guiding their way, but I don’t think they have to at this point, like while searching an old library for this lore a book “just so happens” to fall off a shelf and lands open to a certain page. Or they accidentally or through a trinket tap into an entity’s power and once they gain a certain level of power a pact with that entity is formed.
There are plenty of narrative reasons you can come up with to explain the subclass at 3rd level.
Warlocks dabble in the occult or seek forbidden lore and incantations and can gain their spellcasting and invocations that way. Maybe an entity is guiding their way, but I don’t think they have to at this point, like while searching an old library for this lore a book “just so happens” to fall off a shelf and lands open to a certain page. Or they accidentally or through a trinket tap into an entity’s power and once they gain a certain level of power a pact with that entity is formed.
I mean, whatever works for a specific player and a specific table. But this kind of reinforces the idea of "no subclass means no patron". What if you multiclass and only take 2 levels of warlock? Are you forever a warlock without a patron? Again, that's perfectly fine, the patron is pretty much just flavor, anyway. But it doesn't help this mass hysteria caused by all classes getting their subclass at level 3.
Warlocks dabble in the occult or seek forbidden lore and incantations and can gain their spellcasting and invocations that way. Maybe an entity is guiding their way, but I don’t think they have to at this point, like while searching an old library for this lore a book “just so happens” to fall off a shelf and lands open to a certain page. Or they accidentally or through a trinket tap into an entity’s power and once they gain a certain level of power a pact with that entity is formed.
I mean, whatever works for a specific player and a specific table. But this kind of reinforces the idea of "no subclass means no patron". What if you multiclass and only take 2 levels of warlock? Are you forever a warlock without a patron? Again, that's perfectly fine, the patron is pretty much just flavor, anyway. But it doesn't help this mass hysteria caused by all classes getting their subclass at level 3.
That’s why I added the part about an entity guiding your way. It could be a patron that is providing power yet not a formal pact as you haven’t proven yourself yet. And look at GOO subclass. That patron may not even know of your existence or care so would it even matter if you got it at level one or three?
in my personal opinion the new subclass rules make absolutely no sense because there are several classes that have their subclasses determined by things that already happened BEFORE the beginning of the adventure like Warlocks(they wouldn't have magic if they didn't make a pact), Paladins(they literally gain their powers from their oaths), and Sorcerers(I shouldn't have to explain why a class that is mostly about having magic in their DNA should already have access to their subclass at level 1) so I think every class should have their subclasses available to them at level 1
I have 3 things to say to the people who replied
1. the fact that warlocks choose their patron at level 3 means they didn't have one and they shouldn't have any magic at all because they don't have a patron to give them magic in other words no patron=no magic
2. a paladin who hasn't sworn an oath is NOT a paladin(which is why I believe paladins should have their oath at level 1 and it was stupid of WotC to make it so paladins swore their oaths at level 3 it made no sense then and it makes no sense now) and if they are just "training to be paladins" or "aspiring to be paladins" until level 3 then they aren't paladins yet and shouldn't unlock any paladin spells until level 3
3. last I checked you can't choose your genetics unless some genetic modification crap is involved so a Draconic Bloodline sorcerer(a sorcerer subclass known for growing dragon scales after they hit puberty) would have to have been one from the beginning same thing with divine soul sorcerer
no amount of rationalization will make the new rules make any sense
Mechanically, the old approach often meant some subclasses were unreasonably good 1 level dips for multiclassing (looking at you, Hexblade.) And because subclasses only give features at certain levels, the game designers weren't able to defer an extra good subclass feature to 2nd or 3rd level.
Narratively, I don't think the new rules are too hard to rationalize. 1st and 2nd level characters are still learning the absolute basics of their class (e.g. a 1st level monk doesn't have Ki/Focus abilities yet, 1st level paladins can't Channel Divinity.) So maybe a 1st level warlock or sorcerer simply isn't practiced enough to make use of their sorcerous origin or patron's particular gifts yet.
Besides, the game's designers clearly think it's possible to manifest just a bit of sorcery or warlock powers since they added the Metamagic Adept and Eldritch Adept feats for that in Tasha's Caudron of Everything.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
As InquisitiveCoder said, the big issue was how powerful certain level 1 level dips were, there is nothing at level 1 stopping you saying your character is a cleric of Torm, a Devotion Paladin devoted to Bahamut or that they signed a pact with a devil, just those differences aren't seen until the level 3 selection.
In addition to the above, the designers have said they were trying to help new players. Subclass is one of the biggest choices you make, and forcing someone to do that at character creation could lock them in to a choice when they don’t really understand what’s going on.
Narratively, I’ve been thinking about it, and it could really be interesting. It gives the player and DM a chance to role play a major event, instead of it happening off camera, before everything starts. So the warlock meets their patron, or the cleric receives a vision from their god, etc. It can really make it much more impactful.
Side note, the paladin oath at 3rd level is not new. It’s been that way since 5e started.
The way we do it in my game is that until level 3 you haven't earned the right to wield the power or learned enough to specialize. Like you signed a deal with a patron/pledged yourself to a god, but you haven't proven that you are worthy to wield power in their name or worth investing in.
I also really like what Xalthu said, like your connection develops over time, like you get an inkling but the patron/god doesn't reveal themselves to you until lvl 3.
The rest are pretty simple, you haven't learned the basics yet and so you can't specialize/unlock inner talent
@beastlyone I had the same worries as you when they officially moved the subclasses to 3rd level, but I quickly saw it as a good change with more pros than cons.
You mentioned the Paladin in your post, but the 2014 Paladin picks their Oath at 3rd level, so why not other classes? Same goes for the 2014 Fighter, the 2014 Ranger’s Archetype, and some other 2014 classes.
It's fun to work on your character from the start, even if it takes extra effort to build their story and origin. Then, thanks to the 2024 rule changes, you get to shape their path from level 1 to 3 and beyond.
Anyway, if this change is a big issue for some DMs, they can always decide to have players start at level 3.
I feel like some classes just don't make sense at 3rd level. Warlock at 1st level:"Oh yeah I made a pact with an extra planar entity." The DM: "Who?" Warlock:"I don't know, even though every single one of my class features relies on my patrons support" Same with Sorcerer.
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I'm skeptical that would even happen (I imagine most people that pick up Warlock do so because they really like the idea of having X as a patron) but if it did, how does that affect the DM any more than, say, players picking a certain background for the feat but fleshing out absolutely nothing about their backstory? It's perfectly fine to make things up as you go.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
hey Zakana how does that work for sorcerers(a class where most of its subclasses are determined by the individuals genetics)? last I checked you cant choose or "specialize" when it comes to your dna unless some genetic modification crap is in play
Warlock at 1st level: "Oh yeah, I made a pact with an extra planar entity."
The DM: "Who?"
Warlock at 1st level: "Asmodeus."
The DM: "How come you don't have the level 3 class features granted by the Fiend subclass?"
Warlock at 1st level: "Because I'm not level 3 yet."
So, my thoughts on this have mostly been mentioned above. The 1st-2nd level character has inklings of their powers, but the effects of the subclass aren't manifested yet. Narratively, there's nothing wrong with saying "this warlock made a deal with an angel to heal others and deliver divine justice" and they only get the subclass impact once they've practiced with the basics of their power.
Classes and the justifications:
Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue - Simple. Takes practice in the craft to develop specialized skills.
Bard - Already at level 3, this is when the college training starts.
Cleric - Deity begins granting more specialized power to faithful devotees.
Druid - Becomes able to tap into more focused nature magic.
Paladin - Already at level 3, oath takes full effect as paladin is no longer a trainee-rank.
Sorcerer - After working with basics of innate magic, bloodline begins to fully manifest in their magic.
Warlock - Patron grants additional power, previously withheld because let's face it, how many people would make a deal with an entity then try to run off with that power?
Wizard - Already studies magic, this is where general study becomes focused study, like going from an Associate's to a Bachelor's degree.
The PHB says: "As Sorcerers master their innate magic, they grow more attuned to its origin, developing distinct powers that reflect its source." That's one way to do it.
but the fact that they don't have a patron until level 3 means they either signed a contract with some entity without any idea as to what they made the deal with(which is very unlikely since I'm pretty sure I would notice the difference between a devil and a hag) OR they never signed a contract of any kind meaning they are receiving power from someone they have never met or heard of... and I don't think anyone would just gift the awesome power of eldritch blast to some random nobody in hopes that they will somehow run into one another at a later date
and I am fairly certain there are several different types of creatures that prevent people from "running off with" the powers that were granted to them
Where does it ever say that you only gain your patron at 3rd level? That's when you gain your subclass. That doesn't mean there's no patron involved until then. It just means the patron-specific power doesn't manifest until then.
This. 100% this. No subclass =/= no patron. I don't know where so many people got this idea from, but it's not in the book, or interviews with Jeremy Crawford, or anything. I'm genuinely curious, why is this idea so widespread?
I mean, it's probably due to the last 10 years having the subclass at 1st level and the powers being tied to the patron. It's just a matter of shifting perspective on it.
I think levels 1 and 2 are just apprentice, you are in the way of discovering your vocation within your class, so have basic features but lack others. That's why they emphasized to start at level 3 for a true trained starting character, when it finished their base as seems a class really starting level is 3 when you get finally a way to develop.
For Warlock, as mentioned, no subclass means you have not, just you are not significant enough to get its attention yet. In game this means the player can delay the choice, the DM could force the player to get one at first level (i.e. for multiclassing into Warlock) forcing the subclass later, but who cares is not so important just let the player choose if reach Warlock level 3.
There are many threads that discuss this and examples of how it works have been given.
Sorcerer is easy. Just like a baby’s eyes can change color over time, you may have a genetic connection to the draconic but it doesn’t start manifesting (as subclass features) until level 3. The DNA, if that’s how your sorcerer got their abilities, is there, you eyes (or scaly skin) didn’t change yet.
Paladin always got their oath at 3rd so no change there. And clerics, well, there are laypeople devoted to deities and they have no character levels so why can’t a cleric? And they don’t choose their deity at 3rd level, the deity just bestows upon the cleric a certain aspect of their power (domains) once they prove themselves, as an example.
Warlocks dabble in the occult or seek forbidden lore and incantations and can gain their spellcasting and invocations that way. Maybe an entity is guiding their way, but I don’t think they have to at this point, like while searching an old library for this lore a book “just so happens” to fall off a shelf and lands open to a certain page. Or they accidentally or through a trinket tap into an entity’s power and once they gain a certain level of power a pact with that entity is formed.
There are plenty of narrative reasons you can come up with to explain the subclass at 3rd level.
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I mean, whatever works for a specific player and a specific table. But this kind of reinforces the idea of "no subclass means no patron". What if you multiclass and only take 2 levels of warlock? Are you forever a warlock without a patron? Again, that's perfectly fine, the patron is pretty much just flavor, anyway. But it doesn't help this mass hysteria caused by all classes getting their subclass at level 3.
That’s why I added the part about an entity guiding your way. It could be a patron that is providing power yet not a formal pact as you haven’t proven yourself yet. And look at GOO subclass. That patron may not even know of your existence or care so would it even matter if you got it at level one or three?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?