See Invisibility's benefit: For the duration, you see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Creatures and objects there appear ghostly.
Hide's benefit: On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check. The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Does this mean that this 2nd level spell basically can foil any rogue's attempt to sneak on by with their really high Stealth bonuses? In that case, does that mean that it automatically destroys their Hide attempt, since once a singular enemy spots you, the benefit immediately ends?
Yes See Invisibility let you see Hidden creatures since they have the Invisible condition, as if they were visible, meaning if such creature is behind opaque Total Cover or in an Heavily Obscured area, it may still not see it.
PLEASE NOTE: MOVING STEALTHILY AND HIDE ARE DIFFERENT
Hide is your ability to LOSE a tail/line of sight, Stealth is your way of not drawing attention/line of sight to your movement.
The hide action basically requires to be in a position where you cannot be seen, if you are seen, you are no longer hidden.
See Invisibility is not see through walls, thick fog or darkvision
Hide [Action]
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
I can see where the confusion arises here and why some people are arguing that RAW the spell does defeat hiding, but I'm going to play devil's advocate.
Being able to see something does not mean you automatically spot it. Otherwise you'd have to rule that if I take a trap that requires a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot (e.g. a tripwire) and make it invisible somehow, having See Invisibility lets you automatically spot it.
The heart of the matter is that a hiding creature has made a (successful!) effort to stay quiet and out of sight, and now it takes effort (i.e. the Search action) to find them.
Anyways, here's hoping this gets clarified in the first batch of errata because I do agree the wording is very sloppy.
PLEASE NOTE: MOVING STEALTHILY AND HIDE ARE DIFFERENT
There is actually no rules support for this statement. In fact, in D&D 5e, this is false. Moving stealthily and hiding are actually treated the same by the rules.
The only place in the game where there is a defined rule and mechanic that relates to stealth is within the rules for the Hide Action.
The chart that summarizes the purpose of the various skills lists "stealth" like this:
Escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things.
Although this might seem like two different activities are listed, there is no other discussion at all in the game about moving quietly as if that were a separate activity. Thus, the best interpretation is that this above statement is talking about one big activity, like this: (moving quietly and hiding) (behind things). Which can be rewritten as: "Moving quietly behind things and hiding behind things". In other words, the attempt to be "stealthy" is an attempt to "escape notice". You do this one thing by moving quietly and hiding behind things.
In addition, the rules describe the concept of "hiding" like this:
Hiding
Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, you take the Hide action.
It's clear from this description that one of the activities that qualifies as "hiding" is to sneak somewhere. The game considers sneaking to be a specific type of hiding. Then, the rules state that when attempting any of the activities that can be classified as hiding by the game, you take the Hide action.
In addition, from above, in order to successfully sneak somewhere you need to sneak "behind things".
Remember, even though the list of standard Actions might seem like they are meant to be "combat-only" actions, this is not the case. In the new rules, they are all listed and defined outside of the Combat sections of the rules and characters can (and must) take these actions outside of combat as well:
Actions
When you do something other than moving or communicating, you typically take an action. The Action table lists the game’s main actions, which are defined in more detail in the rules glossary.
. . .
Player characters and monsters can also do things not covered by these actions. Many class features and other abilities provide additional action options, and you can improvise other actions. When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the Dungeon Master tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of D20 Test you need to make, if any.
. . .
Actions can come up in other [non-combat] situations, too: in a social interaction, you can try to Influence a creature or use the Search action to read the creature’s body language, but you can’t do both at the same time. And when you’re exploring a dungeon, you can’t simultaneously use the Search action to look for traps and use the Help action to aid another character who’s trying to open a stuck door (with the Utilize action).
So, we might categories 4 different stealth scenarios: Sneaking outside of combat, hiding outside of combat, sneaking in combat, and hiding in combat. However, according to the rules, all 4 of these scenarios are adjudicated by the text that's within the Hide Action rule.
But people love to read things that are not really in or true about the rules and twist the narrative to suit their own interests, when the truth is it’s the DM running the game at the time is the final word on what works and doesn’t work, regardless of what the rules say.
The fact that the DM can override the rules does not change what the rules say. However, note that hide is only discussing using stealth in combat.
But people love to read things that are not really in or true about the rules and twist the narrative to suit their own interests, when the truth is it’s the DM running the game at the time is the final word on what works and doesn’t work, regardless of what the rules say.
The fact that the DM can override the rules does not change what the rules say. However, note that hide is only discussing using stealth in combat.
Hiding uses stealth in non combat situations also, so to only use the rules in one set of scenarios but not the majority of most is just the problem.
The rules for hiding are not just for combat.
That's a gross and misleading oversimplification. Hide is one way to apply the Stealth proficiency, but not the only way. From the new PHB:
Ability Checks
An ability check represents a creature using talent and training to try to overcome a challenge, such as forcing open a stuck door, picking a lock, entertaining a crowd, or deciphering a cipher. The DM and the rules often call for an ability check when a creature attempts something other than an attack that has a chance of meaningful failure. When the outcome is uncertain and narratively interesting, the dice determine the result.
Actions
When you do something other than moving or communicating, you typically take an action. The Action table lists the game’s main actions, which are defined in more detail in the rules glossary.
...
Player characters and monsters can also do things not covered by these actions. Many class features and other abilities provide additional action options, and you can improvise other actions. When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the Dungeon Master tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of d20 Test you need to make, if any.
It objectively says that ability rolls can be applied in ways aside from the defined actions, ergo Hide is not the end all be all of Stealth rolls.
See invisibility according to the new rules messes with hiding, and apparently the design team missed a ton of interaction within the ruleset.
Because hiding now has the invisible condition, anything that can cause a creature to lose the invisibility condition can also break a creature trying to hide. That is a gross and misleading way to design rules and simply the truth.
We definitely need some guidance or clarification on Hiding and Invisibility. Something like Sage Advice Compendium 2.0.
I would expect the spell to see the hiding rogue. But it would require the caster to use a spell slot and look in the correct direction and the rogue to not be behind cover. In most cases casters are not going around casting detect all the time. But if they had a reason to believe there was a hidden enemy they might.
Im a bit confused over how initive works with the new surprise rules , if the attacker is hidden and surprising its target will the target have disadvantage on initiative and the attacker have advantage?
Wouldnt that be the case every time there is a surprise then? Or is there a way to surprise without beeing hidden and thereby have the invisible condition?
Yes that's right in such circumstances the DM could apply both based on these rules:
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
Yes See Invisibility let you see Hidden creatures since they have the Invisible condition, as if they were visible, meaning if such creature is behind opaque Total Cover or in an Heavily Obscured area, it may still not see it.
Thinking again about the original post and your answer, I believe an equivalent situation (but not exactly the same!) could be when you have an interaction between Truesight and the Invisible condition.
So, even with Truesight, you cannot see an Invisible creature behind Total Cover. This isn't explicitly stated in that Special Sense (it's mentioned in Blindsight, tough), but I believe it makes sense because you don't have line of sight with the hidden creature.
Im a bit confused over how initive works with the new surprise rules , if the attacker is hidden and surprising its target will the target have disadvantage on initiative and the attacker have advantage?
Wouldnt that be the case every time there is a surprise then? Or is there a way to surprise without beeing hidden and thereby have the invisible condition?
It feels like im missing something here. 😊
The surprise rules have changed dramatically in the 2024 rules.
One of the big differences is that surprise at the beginning of combat does not have to involve stealth like it did in the 2014 rules. It is now much more open ended -- a creature can now be surprised for a whole bunch of reasons. From the rules for initiative, we have:
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
This rule was incredibly carefully worded. So, the general requirement now is just that "a combatant is surprised by combat starting". One example is given where this happens because an ambusher "starts combat" while hidden. But that's just one example among many possibilities now. In that particular case, the hidden creature gets advantage and the surprised creature gets disadvantage.
It is extremely interesting that the phrase used was "an ambusher starts combat while hidden" and NOT something like "an ambusher attacks from a hidden position" or anything like that. The wording is attempting to make it clear that you are not supposed to resolve the initial attack outside of combat before initiative is rolled. Instead, someone signals that they are "starting combat" if they declare something like an attack -- but that attack hasn't happened yet. If they happen to roll low on initiative, they might not actually be attacking first, even though they were the instigator to "start combat".
Similarly, from the Rules Glossary, we have:
Surprise
If a creature is caught unawares by the start of combat, that creature is surprised, which causes it to have Disadvantage on its Initiative roll.
This shows the general rule without the example. So being hidden is not necessary.
You could now have situations such as a calm social encounter where a PC blurts out "I attack him!" Now, there is rules support for the DM declaring that this is a "surprising" action, and advantage / disadvantage could be awarded accordingly. For example, perhaps the attacker in this case gets a normal roll (not advantage) and all foes AND all allies get disadvantage! Lots of flexibility for surprise exists now and the consequences of being surprised are significantly less devastating than they were before.
"For example" clearly means that other circumstances can lead to surprise, and overall I think an ambush as an example provides good context on the criteria- if you're catching someone as flat-footed as you would if you sprung out from ambush, then they're Surprised.
Another example outside hidden ambusher that i can see causing effect of surprise would be when a nearby creature that you can see suddenly turn against you unsuspectedly.
"For example" clearly means that other circumstances can lead to surprise, and overall I think an ambush as an example provides good context on the criteria- if you're catching someone as flat-footed as you would if you sprung out from ambush, then they're Surprised.
I agree that this is a good example for surprise -- but there was a comment made that a successful ambush always leads to advantage for one side and disadvantage for the other side.
The question that I was responding to was whether or not there might be other surprise-related scenarios that result in one side / individual with advantage while others roll normal and/or scenarios that result in one side / individual rolling normal while others have disadvantage.
In my opinion, yes, all sorts of combinations of advantage and disadvantage during initiative are possible depending on the particular situation because surprise and surprise-adjacent starts to combat are no longer required to involve stealth and hiding -- it's much more open-ended and flexible now.
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See Invisibility's benefit: For the duration, you see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible, and you can see into the Ethereal Plane. Creatures and objects there appear ghostly.
Hide's benefit: On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check. The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
Does this mean that this 2nd level spell basically can foil any rogue's attempt to sneak on by with their really high Stealth bonuses? In that case, does that mean that it automatically destroys their Hide attempt, since once a singular enemy spots you, the benefit immediately ends?
Yes See Invisibility let you see Hidden creatures since they have the Invisible condition, as if they were visible, meaning if such creature is behind opaque Total Cover or in an Heavily Obscured area, it may still not see it.
PLEASE NOTE: MOVING STEALTHILY AND HIDE ARE DIFFERENT
Hide is your ability to LOSE a tail/line of sight, Stealth is your way of not drawing attention/line of sight to your movement.
The hide action basically requires to be in a position where you cannot be seen, if you are seen, you are no longer hidden.
See Invisibility is not see through walls, thick fog or darkvision
Hide [Action]
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component.
I can see where the confusion arises here and why some people are arguing that RAW the spell does defeat hiding, but I'm going to play devil's advocate.
Being able to see something does not mean you automatically spot it. Otherwise you'd have to rule that if I take a trap that requires a DC 15 Wisdom (Perception) check to spot (e.g. a tripwire) and make it invisible somehow, having See Invisibility lets you automatically spot it.
The heart of the matter is that a hiding creature has made a (successful!) effort to stay quiet and out of sight, and now it takes effort (i.e. the Search action) to find them.
Anyways, here's hoping this gets clarified in the first batch of errata because I do agree the wording is very sloppy.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
See threads such as Explaining the 2024 Stealth Rules. It's COOL! and Summary of issues with 2024 vision, stealth, etc. It appears that, as written, see invisibility would allow you to see a hidden character, at least in combat, unless some other effect was preventing vision.
There is actually no rules support for this statement. In fact, in D&D 5e, this is false. Moving stealthily and hiding are actually treated the same by the rules.
The only place in the game where there is a defined rule and mechanic that relates to stealth is within the rules for the Hide Action.
The chart that summarizes the purpose of the various skills lists "stealth" like this:
Although this might seem like two different activities are listed, there is no other discussion at all in the game about moving quietly as if that were a separate activity. Thus, the best interpretation is that this above statement is talking about one big activity, like this: (moving quietly and hiding) (behind things). Which can be rewritten as: "Moving quietly behind things and hiding behind things". In other words, the attempt to be "stealthy" is an attempt to "escape notice". You do this one thing by moving quietly and hiding behind things.
In addition, the rules describe the concept of "hiding" like this:
It's clear from this description that one of the activities that qualifies as "hiding" is to sneak somewhere. The game considers sneaking to be a specific type of hiding. Then, the rules state that when attempting any of the activities that can be classified as hiding by the game, you take the Hide action.
In addition, from above, in order to successfully sneak somewhere you need to sneak "behind things".
Remember, even though the list of standard Actions might seem like they are meant to be "combat-only" actions, this is not the case. In the new rules, they are all listed and defined outside of the Combat sections of the rules and characters can (and must) take these actions outside of combat as well:
So, we might categories 4 different stealth scenarios: Sneaking outside of combat, hiding outside of combat, sneaking in combat, and hiding in combat. However, according to the rules, all 4 of these scenarios are adjudicated by the text that's within the Hide Action rule.
The fact that the DM can override the rules does not change what the rules say. However, note that hide is only discussing using stealth in combat.
That's a gross and misleading oversimplification. Hide is one way to apply the Stealth proficiency, but not the only way. From the new PHB:
It objectively says that ability rolls can be applied in ways aside from the defined actions, ergo Hide is not the end all be all of Stealth rolls.
And the Skills table straight up says, for Stealth, "Escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things."
We definitely need some guidance or clarification on Hiding and Invisibility. Something like Sage Advice Compendium 2.0.
EDIT: or the new DMG.
I would expect the spell to see the hiding rogue. But it would require the caster to use a spell slot and look in the correct direction and the rogue to not be behind cover. In most cases casters are not going around casting detect all the time. But if they had a reason to believe there was a hidden enemy they might.
Hello!
Im a bit confused over how initive works with the new surprise rules , if the attacker is hidden and surprising its target will the target have disadvantage on initiative and the attacker have advantage?
Wouldnt that be the case every time there is a surprise then? Or is there a way to surprise without beeing hidden and thereby have the invisible condition?
It feels like im missing something here. 😊
Yes that's right in such circumstances the DM could apply both based on these rules:
Thinking again about the original post and your answer, I believe an equivalent situation (but not exactly the same!) could be when you have an interaction between Truesight and the Invisible condition.
So, even with Truesight, you cannot see an Invisible creature behind Total Cover. This isn't explicitly stated in that Special Sense (it's mentioned in Blindsight, tough), but I believe it makes sense because you don't have line of sight with the hidden creature.
The surprise rules have changed dramatically in the 2024 rules.
One of the big differences is that surprise at the beginning of combat does not have to involve stealth like it did in the 2014 rules. It is now much more open ended -- a creature can now be surprised for a whole bunch of reasons. From the rules for initiative, we have:
This rule was incredibly carefully worded. So, the general requirement now is just that "a combatant is surprised by combat starting". One example is given where this happens because an ambusher "starts combat" while hidden. But that's just one example among many possibilities now. In that particular case, the hidden creature gets advantage and the surprised creature gets disadvantage.
It is extremely interesting that the phrase used was "an ambusher starts combat while hidden" and NOT something like "an ambusher attacks from a hidden position" or anything like that. The wording is attempting to make it clear that you are not supposed to resolve the initial attack outside of combat before initiative is rolled. Instead, someone signals that they are "starting combat" if they declare something like an attack -- but that attack hasn't happened yet. If they happen to roll low on initiative, they might not actually be attacking first, even though they were the instigator to "start combat".
Similarly, from the Rules Glossary, we have:
This shows the general rule without the example. So being hidden is not necessary.
You could now have situations such as a calm social encounter where a PC blurts out "I attack him!" Now, there is rules support for the DM declaring that this is a "surprising" action, and advantage / disadvantage could be awarded accordingly. For example, perhaps the attacker in this case gets a normal roll (not advantage) and all foes AND all allies get disadvantage! Lots of flexibility for surprise exists now and the consequences of being surprised are significantly less devastating than they were before.
"For example" clearly means that other circumstances can lead to surprise, and overall I think an ambush as an example provides good context on the criteria- if you're catching someone as flat-footed as you would if you sprung out from ambush, then they're Surprised.
Another example outside hidden ambusher that i can see causing effect of surprise would be when a nearby creature that you can see suddenly turn against you unsuspectedly.
I agree that this is a good example for surprise -- but there was a comment made that a successful ambush always leads to advantage for one side and disadvantage for the other side.
The question that I was responding to was whether or not there might be other surprise-related scenarios that result in one side / individual with advantage while others roll normal and/or scenarios that result in one side / individual rolling normal while others have disadvantage.
In my opinion, yes, all sorts of combinations of advantage and disadvantage during initiative are possible depending on the particular situation because surprise and surprise-adjacent starts to combat are no longer required to involve stealth and hiding -- it's much more open-ended and flexible now.