I had a thought which seems wrong, but I can find nothing which disproves it. Lessons of the first ones is a warlock feature which allows you to take an origin feat. Under the prepared spells of level +1 description, it states "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." If you were to then take magic initiate from lessons of the first one, would those spells become warlock spells for you? And if so, then could you take Magic Initiate (Druid) to get Shillelagh, making it a Warlock spell which then allows for agonizing blast to be applied to it?
Note: There is nothing about cantrips from other classes which disproves or approves of this, which leads to added vagueness
EDIT: I'm a goof and forgot pact of the tome gives cantrips which count as warlock features, making my question pointless and Shillelagh Agonizing Blast Warlocks RAW (Unless disproven) (Consider myself adequately disproven)
I had a thought which seems wrong, but I can find nothing which disproves it. Lessons of the first ones is a warlock feature which allows you to take an origin feat. Under the prepared spells of level +1 description, it states "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." If you were to then take magic initiate from lessons of the first one, would those spells become warlock spells for you? And if so, then could you take Magic Initiate (Druid) to get Shillelagh, making it a Warlock spell which then allows for agonizing blast to be applied to it?
Note: There is nothing about cantrips from other classes which disproves or approves of this, which leads to added vagueness
-The Invocation grants the feat. The feat grants the spells. The layer of disconnect means they're not Warlock spells. -Even if you somehow get Shillelagh as a Warlock spell, the damage comes from the weapon, not the spell; the spell only modifies the weapon's qualities temporarily; Agonizing Blast doesn't apply.
[...] Under the prepared spells of level +1 description, it states "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." If you were to then take magic initiate from lessons of the first one, would those spells become warlock spells for you? [...]
I think these kinds of sentences in the classes are similar to the way things were explained back in 2014, but now they've been moved into a general paragraph in some classes.
For example, for Bards in 2014, in Magical Secrets: "At 6th level, you learn two spells of your choice from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you but don't count against the number of bard spells you know."
Similarly, for Warlocks in 2014, in Pact of the Chain: "You learn the find familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual. The spell doesn't count against your number of spells known."
But in any case, the 2024 sentence refers to your own class feats.
I had a thought which seems wrong, but I can find nothing which disproves it. Lessons of the first ones is a warlock feature which allows you to take an origin feat. Under the prepared spells of level +1 description, it states "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." If you were to then take magic initiate from lessons of the first one, would those spells become warlock spells for you? And if so, then could you take Magic Initiate (Druid) to get Shillelagh, making it a Warlock spell which then allows for agonizing blast to be applied to it?
Note: There is nothing about cantrips from other classes which disproves or approves of this, which leads to added vagueness
-The Invocation grants the feat. The feat grants the spells. The layer of disconnect means they're not Warlock spells. -Even if you somehow get Shillelagh as a Warlock spell, the damage comes from the weapon, not the spell; the spell only modifies the weapon's qualities temporarily; Agonizing Blast doesn't apply.
I think your second point is correct, but I haven’t come across any rules about “layers of disconnect”.
My copy of the PHB hasn’t arrived yet, so I can’t check. However, the wording quoted by the OP isn’t the same as in the UA7 playtest for the Warlock. Assuming the quote is correct, then the clause about prepared spells granted by Warlock features counting as Warlock spells has been deliberately added. Unless there is a rule to the contrary, then I would say that spells gained by taking MI as part of the LotFO invocation count as Warlock spells for the character. Thus, if they gained Produce Flame or Starry Wisp from MI(Druid) that way, then they would be eligible for Agonising Blast.
It doesn't matter if Shillelagh is a warlock spell, it doesn't have a damage roll. The attack you make using the attack action on subsequent actions you take is the thing with the damage roll, which Agonizing Blast does not affect.
While I agree with WolfOfTheBees reasoning, I will say the reason I got this idea was from the interaction Shillelagh has with Potent spell casting in Druid/Cleric and how DNDBeyond processes it, as the potent spell casting feature states, "Potent Spellcasting: Add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any Druid cantrip." and Agonizing blast states, "Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls." As DNDBeyond is currently, when you gain the potent spellcasting feature it will improve Shillelaghs damage, which isn't evidence it works like that but is still something to consider (even in just knowing where this interpretation can stem from)
Yeah, we all know DnDBeyond is broken in a lot of ways. RAW, Potent Spellcasting doesn't apply to Shillelagh either because it's not a damaging cantrip.
The "layers of disconnect" was an explanation showing where the feature comes from, not a rules text reference. The feat is granted by a Warlock class feature, but that doesn't make any spells granted by it Warlock spells.
If I'm not mistaken, one way of getting good cantrips and using them as Warlock spells is through the Pact of the Tome. You could then choose, for example, Ray of Frost or Acid Splash and enhance them with Agonizing Blast.
RAW, Potent Spellcasting doesn't apply to Shillelagh either because it's not a damaging cantrip.[...]
I was wondering... what if the druid chooses Force damage instead of the weapon's normal damage type? Would some DMs allow the interaction between the spell and Potent Spellcasting in that case?
RAW, Potent Spellcasting doesn't apply to Shillelagh either because it's not a damaging cantrip.[...]
I was wondering... what if the druid chooses Force damage instead of the weapon's normal damage type? Would some DMs allow the interaction between the spell and Potent Spellcasting in that case?
No. Shillelagh doesn't deal damage. It modifies a weapon.
It doesn't matter what type of damage the weapon deals when it is used to attack -- it's still damage from a weapon attack as opposed to damage from a spell. For example, you might wield a magical weapon such as a longsword +1. When you hit a creature with that weapon you would typically be dealing "magical slashing damage". Even though that's classified as "magical", that is different than being hit with a magic spell. It's just a classification of the damage type dealt by a weapon attack. Likewise, if instead of slashing or bludgeoning damage the weapon deals force damage it's the same concept. The damage type doesn't change the fact that it was a weapon attack. The weapon just deals a different type of damage for the purposes of vulnerabilities and resistances.
Yeah. As was mentioned above, the major difference is that it's weapon damage, not spell damage. Even Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade do spell damage on top of the weapon damage from the attack. Shillelagh does not.
I had a thought which seems wrong, but I can find nothing which disproves it. Lessons of the first ones is a warlock feature which allows you to take an origin feat. Under the prepared spells of level +1 description, it states "If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you." If you were to then take magic initiate from lessons of the first one, would those spells become warlock spells for you? And if so, then could you take Magic Initiate (Druid) to get Shillelagh, making it a Warlock spell which then allows for agonizing blast to be applied to it?
Note: There is nothing about cantrips from other classes which disproves or approves of this, which leads to added vagueness
EDIT: I'm a goof and forgot pact of the tome gives cantrips which count as warlock features, making my question pointless and Shillelagh Agonizing Blast Warlocks RAW (Unless disproven) (Consider myself adequately disproven)
-The Invocation grants the feat. The feat grants the spells. The layer of disconnect means they're not Warlock spells.
-Even if you somehow get Shillelagh as a Warlock spell, the damage comes from the weapon, not the spell; the spell only modifies the weapon's qualities temporarily; Agonizing Blast doesn't apply.
I think these kinds of sentences in the classes are similar to the way things were explained back in 2014, but now they've been moved into a general paragraph in some classes.
For example, for Bards in 2014, in Magical Secrets: "At 6th level, you learn two spells of your choice from any class. A spell you choose must be of a level you can cast, as shown on the Bard table, or a cantrip. The chosen spells count as bard spells for you but don't count against the number of bard spells you know."
Similarly, for Warlocks in 2014, in Pact of the Chain: "You learn the find familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual. The spell doesn't count against your number of spells known."
But in any case, the 2024 sentence refers to your own class feats.
I think your second point is correct, but I haven’t come across any rules about “layers of disconnect”.
My copy of the PHB hasn’t arrived yet, so I can’t check. However, the wording quoted by the OP isn’t the same as in the UA7 playtest for the Warlock. Assuming the quote is correct, then the clause about prepared spells granted by Warlock features counting as Warlock spells has been deliberately added. Unless there is a rule to the contrary, then I would say that spells gained by taking MI as part of the LotFO invocation count as Warlock spells for the character. Thus, if they gained Produce Flame or Starry Wisp from MI(Druid) that way, then they would be eligible for Agonising Blast.
I would say no. Magic Initiate is not a warlock feature. A warlock feature allows you to get it, but the feat itself isn't.
It doesn't matter if Shillelagh is a warlock spell, it doesn't have a damage roll. The attack you make using the attack action on subsequent actions you take is the thing with the damage roll, which Agonizing Blast does not affect.
I agree with WolfOfTheBees Agonizing Blast doesn't work on Shillelagh because it's not a Warlock cantrip that deals damage.
While I agree with WolfOfTheBees reasoning, I will say the reason I got this idea was from the interaction Shillelagh has with Potent spell casting in Druid/Cleric and how DNDBeyond processes it, as the potent spell casting feature states, "Potent Spellcasting: Add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any Druid cantrip." and Agonizing blast states, "Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls." As DNDBeyond is currently, when you gain the potent spellcasting feature it will improve Shillelaghs damage, which isn't evidence it works like that but is still something to consider (even in just knowing where this interpretation can stem from)
Yeah, we all know DnDBeyond is broken in a lot of ways. RAW, Potent Spellcasting doesn't apply to Shillelagh either because it's not a damaging cantrip.
The "layers of disconnect" was an explanation showing where the feature comes from, not a rules text reference. The feat is granted by a Warlock class feature, but that doesn't make any spells granted by it Warlock spells.
If I'm not mistaken, one way of getting good cantrips and using them as Warlock spells is through the Pact of the Tome. You could then choose, for example, Ray of Frost or Acid Splash and enhance them with Agonizing Blast.
If you use pack of the Tome to gain cantrips from other classes they will be classified as Warlock spells for you
However, Shillelagh, booming blades and the like augment your weapons damage and aren't considered "cantrips that do damage"
I was wondering... what if the druid chooses Force damage instead of the weapon's normal damage type? Would some DMs allow the interaction between the spell and Potent Spellcasting in that case?
Nah...
"when you cast a cantrip at a creature... "
Shillelagh never gets cast at a creature.
Well, I think that wording comes from Potent Cantrip, but I was referring to Potent Spellcasting:
No. Shillelagh doesn't deal damage. It modifies a weapon.
It doesn't matter what type of damage the weapon deals when it is used to attack -- it's still damage from a weapon attack as opposed to damage from a spell. For example, you might wield a magical weapon such as a longsword +1. When you hit a creature with that weapon you would typically be dealing "magical slashing damage". Even though that's classified as "magical", that is different than being hit with a magic spell. It's just a classification of the damage type dealt by a weapon attack. Likewise, if instead of slashing or bludgeoning damage the weapon deals force damage it's the same concept. The damage type doesn't change the fact that it was a weapon attack. The weapon just deals a different type of damage for the purposes of vulnerabilities and resistances.
My mistake.
But again, I'd say a cantrip that does damage needs to tell you it does, not that it changes a die or even damage type.
Yeah. As was mentioned above, the major difference is that it's weapon damage, not spell damage. Even Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade do spell damage on top of the weapon damage from the attack. Shillelagh does not.
Actually, I understand this interaction the same way you're explaining it, but I had that small doubt and wanted to get your opinion
Thanks guys!