Reaper: "At 1st level, you learn one necromancy cantrip of your choice from any spell list. When you cast a necromancy cantrip that [normally] targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other." The over specification here seems to imply this is independent of other features currently affecting the casting of the spell.
Compare to Split Enchantment: "Starting at 10th level, when you cast an enchantment spell of 1st level or higher [that targets] only one creature, you can have it target a second creature." There is no specification, this is how it would be worded if it were an absolute rule.
Twinned Spell: "When you Cast a Spell that Targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, [a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.] For example, Magic Missile and Scorching Ray aren’t eligible, but Ray of Frost is." Toll the dead [normally] targets only one target at the level of [cantrip].
Xanathar's Guide supports this ruling!
Xanathar's Guide gives an optional rule for adjudicating simultaneous effects:
"If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen."
Under this rule, the effects are resolved in order, i.e. you Twin the spell then you use Reaper. Twinned spell let's you pick a target, then pick another target as if they were under the effects of the same spell, Reaper then let's you select two creatures as each target for a total of 4 instances of Toll the dead with one action.
Since everything is happening in response to you casting Toll the Dead, I'd say it's at the same time, but you would have to explain to your dm how to layer the effects.
Cast Toll the Dead
Then Twin Toll the Dead
Then use Reaper to select targets
Then deal damage
Someone is gonna hate this and I'd love to hear your reasons why it won't work but unless they errata it, its viable to do 16d12 necrotic with a single action just by giving your level 17 (only 1 need be Death cleric) metamagic adept.
(I will point out Death Clerics And Oathbreakers were meant for custom npcs not PCs so the balance on Reaper is a little skewed in their favor as pointed out by Jeremy Crawford)
There's the [first] target from the spell, and the [second] target from the metamagic. A spell that [normally] targets one creature. Meaning reaper can make it the [first] 2 targets from the spell, and the [second] 2 targets for the metamagic. I'm sure this is RAW but I'm pretty sure it defies RAI so it'll probably get Errata'd. Oh well
Reaper and Twinned have similar effects that don't stack the way you're describing them as stacking, regardless of the order applied. If you apply Twinned first, Reaper doesn't do anything - replacing 2 targets with 2 targets gets you 2 targets. Same thing happens in the other order.
Right. In order for this combination to stack, at least one of the features would need to tell you that you can target an additional creature. Since both explicitly say that you can target two creatures, you only can ever target two creatures.
Technically, Reaper means it is impossible to use the Twinned Spell Metamagic on Necromancy Cantrips because the errata for it specifies that the spell must not be capable of targeting more than one creature to a Twin that spell, and Reaper makes all Necromancy cantrips capable of affecting two creatures. (It doesn’t say ”you can target an additional creature…,” it says “the spell can….” The Reaper feature directly edits all Necro Cantrips that PC knows. (Including spare the dying and sapping sting which Reaper allows you to take.)
Technically, Reaper means it is impossible to use the Twinned Spell Metamagic on Necromancy Cantrips because the errata for it specifies that the spell must not be capable of targeting more than one creature to a Twin that spell, and Reaper makes all Necromancy cantrips capable of affecting two creatures. (It doesn’t say ”you can target an additional creature…,” it says “the spell can….” The Reaper feature directly edits all Necro Cantrips that PC knows. (Including spare the dying and sapping sting which Reaper allows you to take.)
Oof okay that explanation does make sense, it's less an active ability, you CAN. And more a passive buff. Well no need to pickup twinned spell anymore. Thanks for the clarification I was sure someone had a logical way to read those descriptions other than me.
Right. In order for this combination to stack, at least one of the features would need to tell you that you can target an additional creature. Since both explicitly say that you can target two creatures, you only can ever target two creatures.
Actually it does, Reaper let's you target 2 where you would normally target 1, and Twinned let's you pick a second target (second two if stacking worked) unfortunately there'd need to be another hyperspecific worded entry like Reaper to stack with Reaper
Reaper and Twinned have similar effects that don't stack the way you're describing them as stacking, regardless of the order applied. If you apply Twinned first, Reaper doesn't do anything - replacing 2 targets with 2 targets gets you 2 targets. Same thing happens in the other order.
Not quite one says second target, the other changes the number of targeted per casting its not 2 to 2. Its one casting plus another, then both castings targeting 2. But alas Reaper isn't a choice I would seem but a passive rule implemented at level 1 in death cleric
Again, you are hung up on a weird peculiarity of the wording while ignoring the obvious part about the wording: each explicitly says the total number of targets you can use with them and that total number for either feature is 2. Each caps the total number of creatures targeted to 2: either a first and a second or two rather than one. Reaper doesn’t allow for 3 targets (it says two) and twinned doesn’t allow for a third target (it says a second target).
Sposta is absolutely right that making a spell available to more than one target immediately precludes it from being twinnable, but even so, neither of these features actually just says that you can increase the number of targets by one. They stick you to a particular number.
The only way in which you can use both of those features together is by Twinning the necromancy cantrip Reaper gave you. There is, otherwise, no meaningful interaction.
Say you twin a necromancy cantrip.
Now you are targeting 2 creatures within range instead of one.
Then you attempt to apply reaping.
Okay, now you are eligible to target a 2nd creature. But, you already have targeted a second creature so this option is meaningless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Again, you are hung up on a weird peculiarity of the wording while ignoring the obvious part about the wording: each explicitly says the total number of targets you can use with them and that total number for either feature is 2. Each caps the total number of creatures targeted to 2: either a first and a second or two rather than one. Reaper doesn’t allow for 3 targets (it says two) and twinned doesn’t allow for a third target (it says a second target).
Sposta is absolutely right that making a spell available to more than one target immediately precludes it from being twinnable, but even so, neither of these features actually just says that you can increase the number of targets by one. They stick you to a particular number.
I feel like my table may have been playing twinned spell wrong, it was treated as a second casting of the same spell not just broadening the spell. Like extra attack, you don't just get two damage rolls you do an action then you do it again. Twinned spell was treated as you cast a spell then cast it again at the next guy as long as he's close is to where you were just aiming. And since Reaper broadens the spell you could cast two reaper spells with twinned spell in a single turn. I see why this wouldn't work at most tables.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Honestly, the answer is in the post. If you twin a spell, it no longer is targeting one creature. It is targeting 2, it says it in both twin and reaper. Therefore, using one defeats the prerequisite for the other.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
I believe the moment Toll of the Dead is under an effect that lets it affect additional targets... it is no longer a spell eligible for other effects that work on a spell that targets only one creature.
But judging by the many Q&As on Twinned Spells from the Dev, intentions are that a spell that can affect more than one creature is not considered to be one that target one creature anymore.
Which is beneficial. Basically it's free Twinned Spell on necro cantrips, with a slight restriction on distance between targets. Yay.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
By the different ways you can argue the logic of this, you can also argue that the end result would be 3 targets and not 4:
You cast Toll the Dead as a Twinned Spell. The wording of this is ambiguous and doesn't use the same "this spell can instead target two..." language; in effect you are casting two Toll the Dead cantrips -- kind of like a 'Doublecast' from Final Fantasy - but that second 'cast' is just appearing out of nowhere.
You use Reaping on the Toll of the Dead you actually cast, splitting it into two targets.
So you have a Reaping Toll the Dead hitting two targets within 5 ft of each other (I will always hate this restriction lol), and a 'cloned' Toll the Dead striking some anywhere within its normal range.
But again, that's just if you nitpick semantics to fit how you want to use the effects.
I feel like people are missing the wording of reaper it states 'When you cast a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature' meaning that as long as it normally targets its fine to apply reaper meaning twinning toll the dead would still mean it is technically normally cast at a single target meaning you could still reaper as long as you state your twinning first am i crazy or just missing something?
and just to note in reaper it specifically says it 'can' target another creature meaning its not forced to.
the big question is if you cast toll the dead, twin it, then apply reaper does that target 3 total targets or 4 total targets?
Edited note the reason it doesn't work is actually boring. The only reason it doesn't work is due to twin spell not actually twinning the spell. I.e. making a copy/duplicate of the spell and hitting two targets, but rather the twinning spell actually just makes the spell hit two targets. Making it more of a piercing/curving shot or something that hits one target and then another. As a DM I think its up to you how you run it but honestly for me thinking twinning spell doesn't actually twin the spell and cast 2 spells of the same kind hitting 2 targets, but rather making twinning spell just use the same spell to hit 2 targets is just a waste of the name and could've been named way better or more clearly. I will personally rule it as twinning spell casts 2 spells that hit two targets because that's what the name suggests plus it lets the players roll more which is always fun. Plus this also gives my players the opportunity to make the twin spell plus reaper combo possible which I would love to see my players come up with and discover.
Right, but the issue doesn’t come from the wording for Reaper in that way. It comes from the fact that the Reaper feature edits those cantrips to be able to target multiple creatures, meaning those spells are no longer valid targets for Twin Spell at all.
That, and the fact that reaper is an always on passive ability so it’s not about the declared order of actions - the order is always Reaper then twinned and because of reaper twinned is not allowed.
Reaper: "At 1st level, you learn one necromancy cantrip of your choice from any spell list. When you cast a necromancy cantrip that [normally] targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other." The over specification here seems to imply this is independent of other features currently affecting the casting of the spell.
Compare to Split Enchantment: "Starting at 10th level, when you cast an enchantment spell of 1st level or higher [that targets] only one creature, you can have it target a second creature." There is no specification, this is how it would be worded if it were an absolute rule.
Twinned Spell: "When you Cast a Spell that Targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, [a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.] For example, Magic Missile and Scorching Ray aren’t eligible, but Ray of Frost is." Toll the dead [normally] targets only one target at the level of [cantrip].
Xanathar's Guide supports this ruling!
Xanathar's Guide gives an optional rule for adjudicating simultaneous effects:
"If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen."
Under this rule, the effects are resolved in order, i.e. you Twin the spell then you use Reaper. Twinned spell let's you pick a target, then pick another target as if they were under the effects of the same spell, Reaper then let's you select two creatures as each target for a total of 4 instances of Toll the dead with one action.
Since everything is happening in response to you casting Toll the Dead, I'd say it's at the same time, but you would have to explain to your dm how to layer the effects.
Cast Toll the Dead
Then Twin Toll the Dead
Then use Reaper to select targets
Then deal damage
Someone is gonna hate this and I'd love to hear your reasons why it won't work but unless they errata it, its viable to do 16d12 necrotic with a single action just by giving your level 17 (only 1 need be Death cleric) metamagic adept.
(I will point out Death Clerics And Oathbreakers were meant for custom npcs not PCs so the balance on Reaper is a little skewed in their favor as pointed out by Jeremy Crawford)
There's the [first] target from the spell, and the [second] target from the metamagic. A spell that [normally] targets one creature. Meaning reaper can make it the [first] 2 targets from the spell, and the [second] 2 targets for the metamagic. I'm sure this is RAW but I'm pretty sure it defies RAI so it'll probably get Errata'd. Oh well
Reaper and Twinned have similar effects that don't stack the way you're describing them as stacking, regardless of the order applied. If you apply Twinned first, Reaper doesn't do anything - replacing 2 targets with 2 targets gets you 2 targets. Same thing happens in the other order.
Right. In order for this combination to stack, at least one of the features would need to tell you that you can target an additional creature. Since both explicitly say that you can target two creatures, you only can ever target two creatures.
Technically, Reaper means it is impossible to use the Twinned Spell Metamagic on Necromancy Cantrips because the errata for it specifies that the spell must not be capable of targeting more than one creature to a Twin that spell, and Reaper makes all Necromancy cantrips capable of affecting two creatures. (It doesn’t say ”you can target an additional creature…,” it says “the spell can….” The Reaper feature directly edits all Necro Cantrips that PC knows. (Including spare the dying and sapping sting which Reaper allows you to take.)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Oof okay that explanation does make sense, it's less an active ability, you CAN. And more a passive buff. Well no need to pickup twinned spell anymore. Thanks for the clarification I was sure someone had a logical way to read those descriptions other than me.
Actually it does, Reaper let's you target 2 where you would normally target 1, and Twinned let's you pick a second target (second two if stacking worked) unfortunately there'd need to be another hyperspecific worded entry like Reaper to stack with Reaper
Not quite one says second target, the other changes the number of targeted per casting its not 2 to 2. Its one casting plus another, then both castings targeting 2. But alas Reaper isn't a choice I would seem but a passive rule implemented at level 1 in death cleric
Again, you are hung up on a weird peculiarity of the wording while ignoring the obvious part about the wording: each explicitly says the total number of targets you can use with them and that total number for either feature is 2. Each caps the total number of creatures targeted to 2: either a first and a second or two rather than one. Reaper doesn’t allow for 3 targets (it says two) and twinned doesn’t allow for a third target (it says a second target).
Sposta is absolutely right that making a spell available to more than one target immediately precludes it from being twinnable, but even so, neither of these features actually just says that you can increase the number of targets by one. They stick you to a particular number.
The only way in which you can use both of those features together is by Twinning the necromancy cantrip Reaper gave you. There is, otherwise, no meaningful interaction.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Just like Extra Attack.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I feel like my table may have been playing twinned spell wrong, it was treated as a second casting of the same spell not just broadening the spell. Like extra attack, you don't just get two damage rolls you do an action then you do it again. Twinned spell was treated as you cast a spell then cast it again at the next guy as long as he's close is to where you were just aiming. And since Reaper broadens the spell you could cast two reaper spells with twinned spell in a single turn. I see why this wouldn't work at most tables.
No. Extra attack changes the number of attacks you make when you take the Attack action. You only take one action.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Honestly, the answer is in the post. If you twin a spell, it no longer is targeting one creature. It is targeting 2, it says it in both twin and reaper. Therefore, using one defeats the prerequisite for the other.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
I believe the moment Toll of the Dead is under an effect that lets it affect additional targets... it is no longer a spell eligible for other effects that work on a spell that targets only one creature.
But judging by the many Q&As on Twinned Spells from the Dev, intentions are that a spell that can affect more than one creature is not considered to be one that target one creature anymore.
I'm inclined to agree with Sposta.
Which is beneficial. Basically it's free Twinned Spell on necro cantrips, with a slight restriction on distance between targets. Yay.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
By the different ways you can argue the logic of this, you can also argue that the end result would be 3 targets and not 4:
But again, that's just if you nitpick semantics to fit how you want to use the effects.
I feel like people are missing the wording of reaper it states 'When you cast a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature' meaning that as long as it normally targets its fine to apply reaper meaning twinning toll the dead would still mean it is technically normally cast at a single target meaning you could still reaper as long as you state your twinning first am i crazy or just missing something?
and just to note in reaper it specifically says it 'can' target another creature meaning its not forced to.
the big question is if you cast toll the dead, twin it, then apply reaper does that target 3 total targets or 4 total targets?
Edited note the reason it doesn't work is actually boring. The only reason it doesn't work is due to twin spell not actually twinning the spell. I.e. making a copy/duplicate of the spell and hitting two targets, but rather the twinning spell actually just makes the spell hit two targets. Making it more of a piercing/curving shot or something that hits one target and then another. As a DM I think its up to you how you run it but honestly for me thinking twinning spell doesn't actually twin the spell and cast 2 spells of the same kind hitting 2 targets, but rather making twinning spell just use the same spell to hit 2 targets is just a waste of the name and could've been named way better or more clearly. I will personally rule it as twinning spell casts 2 spells that hit two targets because that's what the name suggests plus it lets the players roll more which is always fun. Plus this also gives my players the opportunity to make the twin spell plus reaper combo possible which I would love to see my players come up with and discover.
Right, but the issue doesn’t come from the wording for Reaper in that way. It comes from the fact that the Reaper feature edits those cantrips to be able to target multiple creatures, meaning those spells are no longer valid targets for Twin Spell at all.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That, and the fact that reaper is an always on passive ability so it’s not about the declared order of actions - the order is always Reaper then twinned and because of reaper twinned is not allowed.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Reaper doesn't care if you twin it. It only cares about normally targetting one.