So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore. Even when I had something in the center of the map that would be amazing to hide behind.
What is worse is that both times the Rogue failed the roll, they still got higher than the passive perception of any of the monsters on the map. So in 2014, they would have succeeded. But it seems like the player has given up because of the need to reach a 15. To be fair the rogue is multiclassed so they don't have expertise yet. I imagine once they get that, they might start trying to hide again, but I'm not sure.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone else has had this issue.
Out of curiosity, what's their Stealth mod? With prof I'd expect at least +5, expertise jumping that to +7. The former gives slightly better than even odds of hitting 15, and the latter put it at about 2 to 1 in favor. If that's the case then it's just a few bad rolls, and also why Rogues can attempt a Hide as a Bonus Action so it's viable to attempt throughout combat rather than "well, my attempt at a fancy opening didn't work, time to just stand and stab". If they're trying for it without any prof, then that's a fairly natural result of how they built their character- I suspect part of the point of adding the DC threshold is to avoid making it too easy for DEX focused characters without the prof to hide from enemies without Perception prof or high WIS (aka: a lot of them). If it's not working for your table, you're of course free to revert to 2014 stealth rules.
2024 Hiding is harder against creatures with low perception, and easier against those with higher one, as a result of relying on static DC 15 to do so as opposed to Passive Perception like it was. But that difficulty is not as high for those with better Stealth and easier way to use it. If the Rogue is given the opportunity, Hiding shouldn't be that difficult in most case.
Out of curiosity, what's their Stealth mod? With prof I'd expect at least +5, expertise jumping that to +7. The former gives slightly better than even odds of hitting 15, and the latter put it at about 2 to 1 in favor. If that's the case then it's just a few bad rolls, and also why Rogues can attempt a Hide as a Bonus Action so it's viable to attempt throughout combat rather than "well, my attempt at a fancy opening didn't work, time to just stand and stab". If they're trying for it without any prof, then that's a fairly natural result of how they built their character- I suspect part of the point of adding the DC threshold is to avoid making it too easy for DEX focused characters without the prof to hide from enemies without Perception prof or high WIS (aka: a lot of them). If it's not working for your table, you're of course free to revert to 2014 stealth rules.
If he's multiclassed there's a good chance his Dex modifier is only +2, but still, +4 should give him even odds. I don't understand the 'no Expertise' though that the OP mentioned, since that's a level 1 ability.
If he did push his Dex up to the 16-17 ranged then by 5th level he should be able to swing a +10 (assuming Expertise in Stealth and a +4 Dex modifier). That should succeed around 75% of the time and that's without Advantage (and if he wants to be sneaky he probably wants to look for something that will give him Advantage such as a Cloak of Elvenkind).
However, the truth is that Stealth is no longer really the Bread and Butter for a Rogue. You only need a non-incapacitated ally within 5' of the target to do your Sneak Attack damage. Being next to the rest of the party normally renders Stealth rolls pretty much moot beyond that and moving away from the party so you can make your Stealth roll has a tendency to shorted the life expectancy of the rogue when things go sideways. If the player is happy not using Stealth then I don't think the OP needs to do anything.
Long ago, hiding during combat was a necessity for a rogue (they could not 'backstab' without it), now they 'sneak attack' and hiding is almost never necessary.
Originally in D&D in order to gain 'backstab' damage, the thief needed to be hidden, the victim unaware of the thief's presence, and the thief had to be behind the victim. This backstab damage compensated for the thief not being in every round of the fight (due to the need to hide), and their low AC and HP.
Now, the rogue gets sneak attack if:
Enemy of the victim is within 5' of the victim (doesn't even need to be an ally of the rogue, just some creature that's hostile to the victim)
Rogue has advantage on the attack roll
If swashbuckler, then no one but the victim within 5' of the rogue
used a vex weapon on the previous attack (grants advantage, so technically rolled up in #2 above)
Hiding is now the least effective way to deliver sneak attack (hiding just gives advantage, and there are so many ways to now get advantage that hiding is a waste of a bonus action - especially since using it for an off-hand attack doubles your chance of inflicting damage and or scoring a crit). Especially if that off-hand attack uses a vexing weapon that grants a free advantage on the rogue's next attack (setting up, yet again, another sneak attack).
Sneak attack damage used to be something rogues got once in a while during a fight, now they've made it so easy to do, that it is rare for a rogue NOT to get 1 or even 2 sneak attacks in per round (I said round not turn).
And the DC15 change to hiding - I haven't found a single person in our extended group that even remotely thinks that is a good change (and most have said they're ignoring it and will use the old way).
Enemy of the victim is within 5' of the victim (doesn't even need to be an ally of the rogue, just some creature that's hostile to the victim)
It needs to be an ally of the Rogue per the rules:
Sneak Attack: You don’t need Advantage on the attack roll if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target, the ally doesn’t have the Incapacitated condition, and you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
Might be a tad pedantic, but it could also be argued that the Rogue needs at least a little bit of experience working with the other person to be effectively use Sneak Attack. However, using that logic the Rogue probably shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack just by having the other attacker shout 'I'm your ally' (unless you want Sneak Attack to be a sort of quasi-magical ability).
It should not matter if the creature engaging the rouge's enemy(target) is an ally or not. If they are attacking then they are drawing the attention of the target and the rouge could sneak attack as the target is distracted.
Enemy of the victim is within 5' of the victim (doesn't even need to be an ally of the rogue, just some creature that's hostile to the victim)
It needs to be an ally of the Rogue per the rules:
Sneak Attack: You don’t need Advantage on the attack roll if at least one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target, the ally doesn’t have the Incapacitated condition, and you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
That's a 2024 change btw, if you look up Sneak Attack in DnD Beyond, 2014, it clearly states "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll."
I wasn't aware that 2024 had changed it back to "ally".
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore. Even when I had something in the center of the map that would be amazing to hide behind.
What is worse is that both times the Rogue failed the roll, they still got higher than the passive perception of any of the monsters on the map. So in 2014, they would have succeeded. But it seems like the player has given up because of the need to reach a 15. To be fair the rogue is multiclassed so they don't have expertise yet. I imagine once they get that, they might start trying to hide again, but I'm not sure.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone else has had this issue.
Best advice, quit using a DC of 15. As the DM or Player, the chances of hiding at a basic level should be 50/50.
You as a DM, can just adjust the DC of hiding based on the character’s abilities. If the character has a lower than average stealth skill, ( not all rouges are ninjas ), or even if their skills are so good they are death incarnate, keeping the challenge at 50/50 still keeps some interest in using the skill.
If most haven’t noticed, the 2024 rules did more to discourage the use of hiding and the use of the ability to be hidden.
Rouges have been altered to fit a less traditional stereotype, and changed into whatever it now is. Stealth skills and abilities used to be the Bread and Butter of the Rouge in Social Encounters and the Combat Encounters where the Rogues place to ether help or run away, to not only live another day but to ensure the ability to recover the party.
Now, Rouges are becoming Fighters or Wizards, and the former role they used to fill is almost phased out. If you can’t use the abilities that make what you do worth doing, then can you really call yourself that particular “Class of Adventurer”?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I agree with the above, hiding isn't necessary for rogues anymore so don't worry about it. As long as they are managing to get sneak attacks someway or the other then they are being an effective rogue.
It should not matter if the creature engaging the rouge's enemy(target) is an ally or not. If they are attacking then they are drawing the attention of the target and the rouge could sneak attack as the target is distracted.
RAW, it does. However, there is not an explicit definition of 'Ally' that I am aware of as far as the rules are concerned. If you want to define it as 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally' that's fine. Just realize that some DMs might take a harder definition for various reasons (e.g., the rogue needing to be familiar with the fighting style of the attacking creature).
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore. Even when I had something in the center of the map that would be amazing to hide behind.
What is worse is that both times the Rogue failed the roll, they still got higher than the passive perception of any of the monsters on the map. So in 2014, they would have succeeded. But it seems like the player has given up because of the need to reach a 15. To be fair the rogue is multiclassed so they don't have expertise yet. I imagine once they get that, they might start trying to hide again, but I'm not sure.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone else has had this issue.
Best advice, quit using a DC of 15. As the DM or Player, the chances of hiding at a basic level should be 50/50.
You as a DM, can just adjust the DC of hiding based on the character’s abilities. If the character has a lower than average stealth skill, ( not all rouges are ninjas ), or even if their skills are so good they are death incarnate, keeping the challenge at 50/50 still keeps some interest in using the skill.
If most haven’t noticed, the 2024 rules did more to discourage the use of hiding and the use of the ability to be hidden.
Rouges have been altered to fit a less traditional stereotype, and changed into whatever it now is. Stealth skills and abilities used to be the Bread and Butter of the Rouge in Social Encounters and the Combat Encounters where the Rogues place to ether help or run away, to not only live another day but to ensure the ability to recover the party.
Now, Rouges are becoming Fighters or Wizards, and the former role they used to fill is almost phased out. If you can’t use the abilities that make what you do worth doing, then can you really call yourself that particular “Class of Adventurer”?
The chance of hiding at a basic level is 50/50, if we consider "a basic level" to be "has prof in Stealth and at least +2 in DEX". The change simply requires a modicum of investment in player design so people can't just roll the dice on the fact that in a straight DEX vs WIS contested roll or DEX roll vs passive perception lots of PCs who didn't build for stealth are still going to have favorable odds since DEX is a common secondary stat.
So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore. Even when I had something in the center of the map that would be amazing to hide behind.
What is worse is that both times the Rogue failed the roll, they still got higher than the passive perception of any of the monsters on the map. So in 2014, they would have succeeded. But it seems like the player has given up because of the need to reach a 15. To be fair the rogue is multiclassed so they don't have expertise yet. I imagine once they get that, they might start trying to hide again, but I'm not sure.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone else has had this issue.
Best advice, quit using a DC of 15. As the DM or Player, the chances of hiding at a basic level should be 50/50.
You as a DM, can just adjust the DC of hiding based on the character’s abilities. If the character has a lower than average stealth skill, ( not all rouges are ninjas ), or even if their skills are so good they are death incarnate, keeping the challenge at 50/50 still keeps some interest in using the skill.
If most haven’t noticed, the 2024 rules did more to discourage the use of hiding and the use of the ability to be hidden.
Rouges have been altered to fit a less traditional stereotype, and changed into whatever it now is. Stealth skills and abilities used to be the Bread and Butter of the Rouge in Social Encounters and the Combat Encounters where the Rogues place to ether help or run away, to not only live another day but to ensure the ability to recover the party.
Now, Rouges are becoming Fighters or Wizards, and the former role they used to fill is almost phased out. If you can’t use the abilities that make what you do worth doing, then can you really call yourself that particular “Class of Adventurer”?
The chance of hiding at a basic level is 50/50, if we consider "a basic level" to be "has prof in Stealth and at least +2 in DEX". The change simply requires a modicum of investment in player design so people can't just roll the dice on the fact that in a straight DEX vs WIS contested roll or DEX roll vs passive perception lots of PCs who didn't build for stealth are still going to have favorable odds since DEX is a common secondary stat.
Not necessarily , Dex could have been lower due to player initially starting character in a different class. and considering they have multi-classed and yet still can’t effectively meet or beat the DC15 threshold, without the expertise boost, means the typical Dexterity as a primary or secondary Ability Score increase a core Rouge would take wasn’t.
and the base level is more factored toward Common NPC stats than special character abilities.
Best guess, Dexterity Ability Score is 13 or less, and the character just didn’t account for the DC change. ( as the lower Dexterity mod plus prof isn’t enough to beat the DC15, but enough to beat the Passive Perception, the Dexterity mod must be lower than the minimal +2[ Score of 14 min in dex] to effectively meet the DC15 minimum threshold for a 50-50 shot. )
A Dex score at minimum of 8( -1 mod) and only proficiency only pushes the minimum required roll to beat a DC15 down to 14, and has a 65% chance of failure. Dex 10( 0 mod value) and the chance of failure drops by 5% to 60% failure rate. ( if Dex was the secondary highest ability score the player should have improved, the ability to effectively hide and beat the DC 15 threshold would be trivial. Unless the stats were rolled stats and the player got ugly rolls. )
The OP post gave enough clues that indicated that initially the player classed as another, and is multi-classing as a Rouge. In this case, Dexterity wasn’t initially considered a top 2 or 3 ability for higher than normal score. ( a score of 10 or 11 could be considered normal in most circles. )
Better to adjust the Difficulty to the player/character ability than to hold firm to a absolute standard that can’t really account for the immense diversity of possible character builds.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
. . .The OP post gave enough clues that indicated that initially the player classed as another, and is multi-classing as a Rouge. In this case, Dexterity wasn’t initially considered a top 2 or 3 ability for higher than normal score. ( a score of 10 or 11 could be considered normal in most circles. ) . . .
Because the character is multiclassed the Dexterity score must be a minimum of 13. You have to have at least a 13 in the Primary abilities of both the new class and the current class in order to multiclass. That's a minimum of +3 on Stealth (if we assume the character is Proficient). Expertise is available to all Rogues at first level, so if the character used expertise on Stealth their absolute minimum is +5.
On the other hand, if the character has a bare minimum Dex score and they put their Expertise to other skills (or even worse, didn't take Stealth as a Proficiency) they probably shouldn't be too surprised that they fail fairly often.
. . .The OP post gave enough clues that indicated that initially the player classed as another, and is multi-classing as a Rouge. In this case, Dexterity wasn’t initially considered a top 2 or 3 ability for higher than normal score. ( a score of 10 or 11 could be considered normal in most circles. ) . . .
Because the character is multiclassed the Dexterity score must be a minimum of 13. You have to have at least a 13 in the Primary abilities of both the new class and the current class in order to multiclass. That's a minimum of +3 on Stealth (if we assume the character is Proficient). Expertise is available to all Rogues at first level, so if the character used expertise on Stealth their absolute minimum is +5.
On the other hand, if the character has a bare minimum Dex score and they put their Expertise to other skills (or even worse, didn't take Stealth as a Proficiency) they probably shouldn't be too surprised that they fail fairly often.
Used to be a character needed to meet a class ability score prerequisite for multiclassing, but after some debate most decided to ignore the prerequisites as it stifles the ability to multiclass optimally.
As I said, if even at a 13 dex score and just proficiency the hide fail rate with a DC15 is 55%, enough to beat the passive but not the active.
As for where the expertise was applied, if the player doesn’t make at any point in building the character any effort to gain proficiency in stealth, then expert can’t be used to double the proficiency.
So another possibility is the Dex score at 16-17, +3 mod no proficiency so no expertise in stealth, and the player miscalculated the early game stealth DC15 of 2024, and based the use of the hide ability on 2014 passive perception mechanics.
As said before, it’s just far easier to know the maximum modification a character can achieve on a task and set the DC on a 50-50 shot for the player/character.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
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So my Rogue player tried to hide twice and failed both times rolling under a 15. It has been more than 8-10 games and the rogue player hasn't bothered trying to hide anymore. Even when I had something in the center of the map that would be amazing to hide behind.
What is worse is that both times the Rogue failed the roll, they still got higher than the passive perception of any of the monsters on the map. So in 2014, they would have succeeded. But it seems like the player has given up because of the need to reach a 15. To be fair the rogue is multiclassed so they don't have expertise yet. I imagine once they get that, they might start trying to hide again, but I'm not sure.
Anyway I was wondering if anyone else has had this issue.
Out of curiosity, what's their Stealth mod? With prof I'd expect at least +5, expertise jumping that to +7. The former gives slightly better than even odds of hitting 15, and the latter put it at about 2 to 1 in favor. If that's the case then it's just a few bad rolls, and also why Rogues can attempt a Hide as a Bonus Action so it's viable to attempt throughout combat rather than "well, my attempt at a fancy opening didn't work, time to just stand and stab". If they're trying for it without any prof, then that's a fairly natural result of how they built their character- I suspect part of the point of adding the DC threshold is to avoid making it too easy for DEX focused characters without the prof to hide from enemies without Perception prof or high WIS (aka: a lot of them). If it's not working for your table, you're of course free to revert to 2014 stealth rules.
2024 Hiding is harder against creatures with low perception, and easier against those with higher one, as a result of relying on static DC 15 to do so as opposed to Passive Perception like it was. But that difficulty is not as high for those with better Stealth and easier way to use it. If the Rogue is given the opportunity, Hiding shouldn't be that difficult in most case.
If he's multiclassed there's a good chance his Dex modifier is only +2, but still, +4 should give him even odds. I don't understand the 'no Expertise' though that the OP mentioned, since that's a level 1 ability.
If he did push his Dex up to the 16-17 ranged then by 5th level he should be able to swing a +10 (assuming Expertise in Stealth and a +4 Dex modifier). That should succeed around 75% of the time and that's without Advantage (and if he wants to be sneaky he probably wants to look for something that will give him Advantage such as a Cloak of Elvenkind).
However, the truth is that Stealth is no longer really the Bread and Butter for a Rogue. You only need a non-incapacitated ally within 5' of the target to do your Sneak Attack damage. Being next to the rest of the party normally renders Stealth rolls pretty much moot beyond that and moving away from the party so you can make your Stealth roll has a tendency to shorted the life expectancy of the rogue when things go sideways. If the player is happy not using Stealth then I don't think the OP needs to do anything.
Long ago, hiding during combat was a necessity for a rogue (they could not 'backstab' without it), now they 'sneak attack' and hiding is almost never necessary.
Originally in D&D in order to gain 'backstab' damage, the thief needed to be hidden, the victim unaware of the thief's presence, and the thief had to be behind the victim. This backstab damage compensated for the thief not being in every round of the fight (due to the need to hide), and their low AC and HP.
Now, the rogue gets sneak attack if:
Hiding is now the least effective way to deliver sneak attack (hiding just gives advantage, and there are so many ways to now get advantage that hiding is a waste of a bonus action - especially since using it for an off-hand attack doubles your chance of inflicting damage and or scoring a crit). Especially if that off-hand attack uses a vexing weapon that grants a free advantage on the rogue's next attack (setting up, yet again, another sneak attack).
Sneak attack damage used to be something rogues got once in a while during a fight, now they've made it so easy to do, that it is rare for a rogue NOT to get 1 or even 2 sneak attacks in per round (I said round not turn).
And the DC15 change to hiding - I haven't found a single person in our extended group that even remotely thinks that is a good change (and most have said they're ignoring it and will use the old way).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
It needs to be an ally of the Rogue per the rules:
Might be a tad pedantic, but it could also be argued that the Rogue needs at least a little bit of experience working with the other person to be effectively use Sneak Attack. However, using that logic the Rogue probably shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack just by having the other attacker shout 'I'm your ally' (unless you want Sneak Attack to be a sort of quasi-magical ability).
It should not matter if the creature engaging the rouge's enemy(target) is an ally or not. If they are attacking then they are drawing the attention of the target and the rouge could sneak attack as the target is distracted.
The creature within 5 feet doesn't need to be hostile or enemy of the target, just your ally, which i interpret as distracting it somehow.
That's a 2024 change btw, if you look up Sneak Attack in DnD Beyond, 2014, it clearly states "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll."
I wasn't aware that 2024 had changed it back to "ally".
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
HarmAssassin All good it's a sneaky revision i figured had beat your Passive Perception : )
Best advice, quit using a DC of 15. As the DM or Player, the chances of hiding at a basic level should be 50/50.
You as a DM, can just adjust the DC of hiding based on the character’s abilities. If the character has a lower than average stealth skill, ( not all rouges are ninjas ), or even if their skills are so good they are death incarnate, keeping the challenge at 50/50 still keeps some interest in using the skill.
If most haven’t noticed, the 2024 rules did more to discourage the use of hiding and the use of the ability to be hidden.
Rouges have been altered to fit a less traditional stereotype, and changed into whatever it now is. Stealth skills and abilities used to be the Bread and Butter of the Rouge in Social Encounters and the Combat Encounters where the Rogues place to ether help or run away, to not only live another day but to ensure the ability to recover the party.
Now, Rouges are becoming Fighters or Wizards, and the former role they used to fill is almost phased out. If you can’t use the abilities that make what you do worth doing, then can you really call yourself that particular “Class of Adventurer”?
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I agree with the above, hiding isn't necessary for rogues anymore so don't worry about it. As long as they are managing to get sneak attacks someway or the other then they are being an effective rogue.
RAW, it does. However, there is not an explicit definition of 'Ally' that I am aware of as far as the rules are concerned. If you want to define it as 'the enemy of my enemy is my ally' that's fine. Just realize that some DMs might take a harder definition for various reasons (e.g., the rogue needing to be familiar with the fighting style of the attacking creature).
The chance of hiding at a basic level is 50/50, if we consider "a basic level" to be "has prof in Stealth and at least +2 in DEX". The change simply requires a modicum of investment in player design so people can't just roll the dice on the fact that in a straight DEX vs WIS contested roll or DEX roll vs passive perception lots of PCs who didn't build for stealth are still going to have favorable odds since DEX is a common secondary stat.
Ally is defined in the Rules Glossary
Not necessarily , Dex could have been lower due to player initially starting character in a different class. and considering they have multi-classed and yet still can’t effectively meet or beat the DC15 threshold, without the expertise boost, means the typical Dexterity as a primary or secondary Ability Score increase a core Rouge would take wasn’t.
and the base level is more factored toward Common NPC stats than special character abilities.
Best guess, Dexterity Ability Score is 13 or less, and the character just didn’t account for the DC change. ( as the lower Dexterity mod plus prof isn’t enough to beat the DC15, but enough to beat the Passive Perception, the Dexterity mod must be lower than the minimal +2[ Score of 14 min in dex] to effectively meet the DC15 minimum threshold for a 50-50 shot. )
A Dex score at minimum of 8( -1 mod) and only proficiency only pushes the minimum required roll to beat a DC15 down to 14, and has a 65% chance of failure. Dex 10( 0 mod value) and the chance of failure drops by 5% to 60% failure rate. ( if Dex was the secondary highest ability score the player should have improved, the ability to effectively hide and beat the DC 15 threshold would be trivial. Unless the stats were rolled stats and the player got ugly rolls. )
The OP post gave enough clues that indicated that initially the player classed as another, and is multi-classing as a Rouge. In this case, Dexterity wasn’t initially considered a top 2 or 3 ability for higher than normal score. ( a score of 10 or 11 could be considered normal in most circles. )
Better to adjust the Difficulty to the player/character ability than to hold firm to a absolute standard that can’t really account for the immense diversity of possible character builds.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Well, if this Rogue has Dex 13 or less, it has more serious problems than just Stealth TBH
Because the character is multiclassed the Dexterity score must be a minimum of 13. You have to have at least a 13 in the Primary abilities of both the new class and the current class in order to multiclass. That's a minimum of +3 on Stealth (if we assume the character is Proficient). Expertise is available to all Rogues at first level, so if the character used expertise on Stealth their absolute minimum is +5.
On the other hand, if the character has a bare minimum Dex score and they put their Expertise to other skills (or even worse, didn't take Stealth as a Proficiency) they probably shouldn't be too surprised that they fail fairly often.
Used to be a character needed to meet a class ability score prerequisite for multiclassing, but after some debate most decided to ignore the prerequisites as it stifles the ability to multiclass optimally.
As I said, if even at a 13 dex score and just proficiency the hide fail rate with a DC15 is 55%, enough to beat the passive but not the active.
As for where the expertise was applied, if the player doesn’t make at any point in building the character any effort to gain proficiency in stealth, then expert can’t be used to double the proficiency.
So another possibility is the Dex score at 16-17, +3 mod no proficiency so no expertise in stealth, and the player miscalculated the early game stealth DC15 of 2024, and based the use of the hide ability on 2014 passive perception mechanics.
As said before, it’s just far easier to know the maximum modification a character can achieve on a task and set the DC on a 50-50 shot for the player/character.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.