Hello everyone! I have a question concerning the Valor Bard's Extra Attacks feature and how it interacts with the Eldritch Knight's War Magic.
So, we have the Valor Bard's Extra Attack with says that "You can attack twice instead of once when you take the Attack Action on your turn.
In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks"
And the Eldritch Knight's War Magic that says
"When you take the attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action"
Am I wrong to assume that if I were a Level 6 Bard (College of Valor) and Level 7 Fighter (Eldritch Knight) I could use my action to cast 2 cantrips (one of which HAS to be a Wizard cantrip)?
I am not sure I would read it so generously. It depends on how literally you read the Muticlassing rules:
If you gain the Extra Attack feature from more than one class, the features don’t stack. You can’t make more than two attacks with this feature unless you have a feature that says you can (such as the Fighter’s Two Extra Attacks feature).
Similarly, the Warlock’s Thirsting Blade invocation, which grants you the Extra Attack feature with your pact weapon, doesn’t give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
The bonded bit could be read literally rather than just stating that you don’t just continue to add attacks. If they literally don’t stack at all, then that would mean (as before) you choose one and gain only the benefits from it, rather than stacking the benefits from two.
In my opinion, the interaction is valid for two reasons:
Eldritch Knight's War Magic is a different feature from the Figther Level 5: Extra Attack.
The College of Valor Bard's Extra Attack feature gives you two benefits: you can attack twice (this part doesn't stack) and, additionally, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.
I am not sure I would read it so generously. It depends on how literally you read the Muticlassing rules:
If you gain the Extra Attack feature from more than one class, the features don’t stack. You can’t make more than two attacks with this feature unless you have a feature that says you can (such as the Fighter’s Two Extra Attacks feature).
Similarly, the Warlock’s Thirsting Blade invocation, which grants you the Extra Attack feature with your pact weapon, doesn’t give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
The bonded bit could be read literally rather than just stating that you don’t just continue to add attacks. If they literally don’t stack at all, then that would mean (as before) you choose one and gain only the benefits from it, rather than stacking the benefits from two.
War Magic isn't an Extra Attack feature, though
I think RAW it wriggles though. I suspect RAI the intention is that you can only replace one (1) attack per Attack action with a cantrip, regardless of how many different ways you have to do it
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Valour Bard’s feature doesn’t specify the source for the cantrip, so there appears to be no requirement for it to be a Bard cantrip. You could, therefore, cast True Strike twice that turn, it appears.
You have to be Valour Bard level 6 and Eldritch Knight level 7 for this to work, though. As you will be character level 13 by then, you’d be doing an extra 2d6 radiant damage per hit. (As single-class Eldritch Knight, though, you’d have already gained your third attack by that level, so even if this were not the Rule as Intended, it’s hardly game-breaking.)
No, it's really strong. I thought about something similar a while ago where you would combine the new valour bard (6 levels) and the new wizard with the bladesinger subclass (7 levels, since the new bladesinger isn't out yet) with the warlock (minimum one level). Since both features don't limit you to their attack action or their cantrips, you can cast two eldritch blasts as one action. Combine that with an upcast (new) conjure minor elementals and you definitely have some serious damage numbers going.
another thing to consider is that EK (wiz) cantrip is INT based, and Bard cantrip "might" be Cha (since it just says "your cantrip", you could again cast a wiz/ek int-based cantrip).
I guess what I'm getting at is there might be some MAD-ness here. Say you want to make two attacks, both with True Strike. Well, you'd want to make sure that you take True Strike as an EK (so that it is wiz/int based), and then maybe use it twice (since the Bard feature doesn't specify). That would work, but does mean your CHA will be < your INT (if you're trying to push True Strike). So now you're a Bard with "weak" charisma, as well as a subclass whose level 3 and 6 features are virtually erased via overlap with fighter abilities.
But, you do get true strike 2x/turn, IMO - if that's all you're really going for.
Why are people so down on this combo and so focused on true strike? This is a good combo though it is kinda MAD. You can booming blade twice which is something a sorcerer has to use meta magic and a bonus action to do. It comes online late and RAW it seems to work fine. You can build the character as a bard 12/fighter 8 and have a lower intelligence only using the EK preparations for non dc spells like detect magic or shield. 2 booming blades at level 13 when this build comes online does as much as a level 13 paladin attacking twice and using a first level divine smite. Yes, It doesn't do as much as a straight class EK at level 13, 2d8 damage isn't as good as another attack, but it's still a decent build that's essentially a half-caster with more sustained damage than a paladin.
Alternatively, you could build primarily as an EK and go either 14/6, 11/9, or 12/8. The 14/6 would be doing basically as much as a full EK throughout its career. The build is different and takes some work to optimize but isn't significantly worse than other builds once optimized.
Given the way booming blade is worded, the damage if they move would not be doubled if you hit a target twice in the same turn
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Given the way booming blade is worded, the damage if they move would not be doubled if you hit a target twice in the same turn
I didn't even factor the moving damage in when I noted that it does the same damage as a paladin using a 1st level divine smite. Though I fail to see why multiple instances of an effect would fail to stack and you didn't provide any argument as to why it wouldn't.
To show the numbers a paladin would get an extra d8 on their attacks with radiant strikes at level 11 for 2d8 over 2 attacks. The base damage of divine smite is 2d8 for a total increase of 4d8 using a bonus action. A booming blade deals an extra 2d8 at that level to the base hit. Booming blade twice would add up to 4d8 increased damage which would then increase to 6d8 at level 17. At that level a paladin would have to use a 3rd level divine smite to do the same damage.
Given the way booming blade is worded, the damage if they move would not be doubled if you hit a target twice in the same turn
I didn't even factor the moving damage in when I noted that it does the same damage as a paladin using a 1st level divine smite. Though I fail to see why multiple instances of an effect would fail to stack and you didn't provide any argument as to why it wouldn't.
To show the numbers a paladin would get an extra d8 on their attacks with radiant strikes at level 11 for 2d8 over 2 attacks. The base damage of divine smite is 2d8 for a total increase of 4d8 using a bonus action. A booming blade deals an extra 2d8 at that level to the base hit. Booming blade twice would add up to 4d8 increased damage which would then increase to 6d8 at level 17. At that level a paladin would have to use a 3rd level divine smite to do the same damage.
I believe he was referring to this rule:
Combining Spell Effects
The effects of different spells add together while their durations overlap. In contrast, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. The most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap. For example, if two Clerics cast Bless on the same target, that target gains the spell’s benefit only once; the target doesn’t receive two bonus dice. But if the durations of the spells overlap, the effect continues until the duration of the second Bless ends.
Given the way booming blade is worded, the damage if they move would not be doubled if you hit a target twice in the same turn
I didn't even factor the moving damage in when I noted that it does the same damage as a paladin using a 1st level divine smite. Though I fail to see why multiple instances of an effect would fail to stack and you didn't provide any argument as to why it wouldn't.
To show the numbers a paladin would get an extra d8 on their attacks with radiant strikes at level 11 for 2d8 over 2 attacks. The base damage of divine smite is 2d8 for a total increase of 4d8 using a bonus action. A booming blade deals an extra 2d8 at that level to the base hit. Booming blade twice would add up to 4d8 increased damage which would then increase to 6d8 at level 17. At that level a paladin would have to use a 3rd level divine smite to do the same damage.
I believe he was referring to this rule:
Combining Spell Effects
The effects of different spells add together while their durations overlap. In contrast, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. The most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap. For example, if two Clerics cast Bless on the same target, that target gains the spell’s benefit only once; the target doesn’t receive two bonus dice. But if the durations of the spells overlap, the effect continues until the duration of the second Bless ends.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for making the argument instead of a claim without supporting it.
It still doesn't change that the damage output is comparable to a paladin without the moving damage.
Am I wrong to assume that if I were a Level 6 Bard (College of Valor) and Level 7 Fighter (Eldritch Knight) I could use my action to cast 2 cantrips (one of which HAS to be a Wizard cantrip)?
One other thing to note is that if you have access to the Eldritch blast you are not making 2 attacks with the two cantrips you are actually making 6 attacks at up to 6 different foes. That is potential very powerful - either 6 foes for 1d10 each or 1 foe for 6d10..
One other thing to note is that if you have access to the Eldritch blast you are not making 2 attacks with the two cantrips you are actually making 6 attacks at up to 6 different foes. That is potential very powerful - either 6 foes for 1d10 each or 1 foe for 6d10..
Not sure how you're getting to 6 with this one? You can't use Eldritch Blast with War Magic, but you can with Valor Bard's Extra Attack. So unless you mean Fighter 11/Bard 6/ Warlock 1?
What you can do, to get two castings of Eldritch Blast is go Warlock/Sorcerer and use quickened spell, unless you're going for some absurd Fount of Moonlight build, I else wise don't think I'd recommend then getting Bard involved for the extra attack.
Actually, I just had a crazy thought, how does War Magic and Valor Bard's Extra Attack work with Haste?
Valor Bard's Extra Attack reads as you can switch one of the attacks of Extra Attack, when Haste doesn't permit Extra attack, so that likely doesn't work.
War Magic simply states that when you take the Attack Action you can swap one of the attacks for a cantrip, this seems less clear to me as to if you could actually use War Magic off of a Haste Attack?
Presumably both of these would work with an Action Surge but I think that is more expected...
I think you can do it just fine. Haste does let you use the Attack action. Even though it's limited to one attack, it's still explicitly the Attack action, and both of those features let you replace an attack made using the Attack action.
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Hello everyone! I have a question concerning the Valor Bard's Extra Attacks feature and how it interacts with the Eldritch Knight's War Magic.
So, we have the Valor Bard's Extra Attack with says that
"You can attack twice instead of once when you take the Attack Action on your turn.
In addition, you can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action in place of one of those attacks"
And the Eldritch Knight's War Magic that says
"When you take the attack action on your turn, you can replace one of the attacks with a casting of one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action"
Am I wrong to assume that if I were a Level 6 Bard (College of Valor) and Level 7 Fighter (Eldritch Knight) I could use my action to cast 2 cantrips (one of which HAS to be a Wizard cantrip)?
Sounds correct
I am not sure I would read it so generously. It depends on how literally you read the Muticlassing rules:
The bonded bit could be read literally rather than just stating that you don’t just continue to add attacks. If they literally don’t stack at all, then that would mean (as before) you choose one and gain only the benefits from it, rather than stacking the benefits from two.
In my opinion, the interaction is valid for two reasons:
War Magic isn't an Extra Attack feature, though
I think RAW it wriggles though. I suspect RAI the intention is that you can only replace one (1) attack per Attack action with a cantrip, regardless of how many different ways you have to do it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Valour Bard’s feature doesn’t specify the source for the cantrip, so there appears to be no requirement for it to be a Bard cantrip. You could, therefore, cast True Strike twice that turn, it appears.
You have to be Valour Bard level 6 and Eldritch Knight level 7 for this to work, though. As you will be character level 13 by then, you’d be doing an extra 2d6 radiant damage per hit. (As single-class Eldritch Knight, though, you’d have already gained your third attack by that level, so even if this were not the Rule as Intended, it’s hardly game-breaking.)
Thanks for all the replies you guys.
I know that this combo is not that strong, but I think it is a fun combo because you can have a lot of options on your turn instead of just attacking.
I just wanted to make sure I'm not misinterpreting the rules as I read them.
No, it's really strong. I thought about something similar a while ago where you would combine the new valour bard (6 levels) and the new wizard with the bladesinger subclass (7 levels, since the new bladesinger isn't out yet) with the warlock (minimum one level). Since both features don't limit you to their attack action or their cantrips, you can cast two eldritch blasts as one action. Combine that with an upcast (new) conjure minor elementals and you definitely have some serious damage numbers going.
necroing, but only by 15 hours ;)
another thing to consider is that EK (wiz) cantrip is INT based, and Bard cantrip "might" be Cha (since it just says "your cantrip", you could again cast a wiz/ek int-based cantrip).
I guess what I'm getting at is there might be some MAD-ness here. Say you want to make two attacks, both with True Strike. Well, you'd want to make sure that you take True Strike as an EK (so that it is wiz/int based), and then maybe use it twice (since the Bard feature doesn't specify). That would work, but does mean your CHA will be < your INT (if you're trying to push True Strike). So now you're a Bard with "weak" charisma, as well as a subclass whose level 3 and 6 features are virtually erased via overlap with fighter abilities.
But, you do get true strike 2x/turn, IMO - if that's all you're really going for.
Why are people so down on this combo and so focused on true strike? This is a good combo though it is kinda MAD. You can booming blade twice which is something a sorcerer has to use meta magic and a bonus action to do. It comes online late and RAW it seems to work fine. You can build the character as a bard 12/fighter 8 and have a lower intelligence only using the EK preparations for non dc spells like detect magic or shield. 2 booming blades at level 13 when this build comes online does as much as a level 13 paladin attacking twice and using a first level divine smite. Yes, It doesn't do as much as a straight class EK at level 13, 2d8 damage isn't as good as another attack, but it's still a decent build that's essentially a half-caster with more sustained damage than a paladin.
Alternatively, you could build primarily as an EK and go either 14/6, 11/9, or 12/8. The 14/6 would be doing basically as much as a full EK throughout its career. The build is different and takes some work to optimize but isn't significantly worse than other builds once optimized.
Given the way booming blade is worded, the damage if they move would not be doubled if you hit a target twice in the same turn
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I didn't even factor the moving damage in when I noted that it does the same damage as a paladin using a 1st level divine smite. Though I fail to see why multiple instances of an effect would fail to stack and you didn't provide any argument as to why it wouldn't.
To show the numbers a paladin would get an extra d8 on their attacks with radiant strikes at level 11 for 2d8 over 2 attacks. The base damage of divine smite is 2d8 for a total increase of 4d8 using a bonus action. A booming blade deals an extra 2d8 at that level to the base hit. Booming blade twice would add up to 4d8 increased damage which would then increase to 6d8 at level 17. At that level a paladin would have to use a 3rd level divine smite to do the same damage.
I believe he was referring to this rule:
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for making the argument instead of a claim without supporting it.
It still doesn't change that the damage output is comparable to a paladin without the moving damage.
Upon taking the Attack action on your turn;
You can attack twice instead of once.
OR
You can attack once and cast one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action.
OR
You can attack once and can cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action.
OR
You can cast one of your Wizard cantrips that has a casting time of an action and cast one of your cantrips that has a casting time of an action.
One other thing to note is that if you have access to the Eldritch blast you are not making 2 attacks with the two cantrips you are actually making 6 attacks at up to 6 different foes. That is potential very powerful - either 6 foes for 1d10 each or 1 foe for 6d10..
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Not sure how you're getting to 6 with this one? You can't use Eldritch Blast with War Magic, but you can with Valor Bard's Extra Attack. So unless you mean Fighter 11/Bard 6/ Warlock 1?
What you can do, to get two castings of Eldritch Blast is go Warlock/Sorcerer and use quickened spell, unless you're going for some absurd Fount of Moonlight build, I else wise don't think I'd recommend then getting Bard involved for the extra attack.
Agreed. i don't think there's a way for Eldritch Knight to make Eldritch Blast a Wizard spell.
Actually, I just had a crazy thought, how does War Magic and Valor Bard's Extra Attack work with Haste?
Valor Bard's Extra Attack reads as you can switch one of the attacks of Extra Attack, when Haste doesn't permit Extra attack, so that likely doesn't work.
War Magic simply states that when you take the Attack Action you can swap one of the attacks for a cantrip, this seems less clear to me as to if you could actually use War Magic off of a Haste Attack?
Presumably both of these would work with an Action Surge but I think that is more expected...
I think you can do it just fine. Haste does let you use the Attack action. Even though it's limited to one attack, it's still explicitly the Attack action, and both of those features let you replace an attack made using the Attack action.
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