The Player's Handbook specifies that a Metamagic option is added when casting a spell. If a spell has a casting time greater than an action, is it possible to add Metamagic to that spell at any point during the casting time, or does it have to be applied when the Cast a Spell action is taken?
Not sure why it'd be relevant- casting times jump from 1 action/bonus action/reaction to 1 minute. Pretty much no combat lasts that long in-game time, and even when it does you'll be very unlikely to hold concentration through it. Out of combat the requisite time will pretty much always just immediately elapse from the player perspective unless the DM is throwing a curve ball at the party, which returns to the part where you're unlikely to be able to hold the casting.
Who said I was aiming for anything, and why does it matter? A simple yes or no will answer the question if there's a ruling for it. I couldn't find one anywhere.
If you must have a hypothetical scenario, let's say the party is in a situation where they've got one opportunity to cast a one-minute spell, and then partway through, unexpected enemies show up. Either they cast Silence as part of their ambush, or demonstrate some other magical ability that suggests they might have Silence too. Can the spellcaster apply Subtle Spell at that time to ensure the spell isn't disrupted?
I don't know of any official ruling on it- probably because it's the sort of thing that would take a really really rare circumstance to come up. If we really drill down on the wording, it looks like under 2024 rules you are only casting the spell in the sense that you need to meet the pre-reqs- spell slot, components, etc.- during the first action, so no you cannot throw in a Metamagic on the fly, but you also can't disrupt the cast with a Silence spell since you're just taking the Magic Action to hold your spell in place. 2014 specifically says you spend the action casting the spell every turn, so you arguably have a case there. Granted, this is all very abstract theorycrafting because by any practical measure it's more effective to either just hit you in the face to make you lose Concentration or just let it ride since you won't be contributing to the fight while you're mid cast and there's little to nothing that would meaningfully impact a combat scenario with a 1 minute cast time.
Who said I was aiming for anything, and why does it matter? A simple yes or no will answer the question if there's a ruling for it. I couldn't find one anywhere.
If you must have a hypothetical scenario, let's say the party is in a situation where they've got one opportunity to cast a one-minute spell, and then partway through, unexpected enemies show up. Either they cast Silence as part of their ambush, or demonstrate some other magical ability that suggests they might have Silence too. Can the spellcaster apply Subtle Spell at that time to ensure the spell isn't disrupted?
As The_Ace_of_Rogues already stated, this type of things would be far too often a rare scenario, but I can see a case where it could come up, the 10 minute long casting of Prayer of Healing by either a Cleric or a Paladin, alternatively during the (ritual) casting of Find Familiar at 1 hour/1 hour & 10 minutes.
I would say that the Magic Action is unclear and the section on components or casting spells doesn't cover it either. As such it'll be down to a DM to interpret.
I'd personally say that you need to fulfil the component requirements for the entire casting, the section on concentration is just an extra prerequisite you must also achieve for the duration of casting, I would also say that you can only take the meta magic option during your turn however the silence effect would not impede your casting until your turn as such you could use the subtle spell meta magic since you are actively casting a spell. But I could also very well just play it like The_Ace_of_Rogues says so that it's less interruption to the actual encounter as people get confused over what is/is not allowed.
If you're going to interrupt such spells (something I'd probably only do in egregious resting situations/casting places, I.e. lets rest in this kobold infested cave with out securing a safe/defensible area) then I'd probably make it more the case that the spell is going to be interrupted at a point where narrative the player has to decide between trying to maintain the spell or dropping it to engage in combat.
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I was thinking along these lines as well, but your mention of Counterspell is actually causing me to change my mind. The scenario of casting a 1 Action spell and getting Counterspelled is quite relevant to the overall discussion about how the Sorcery Points mechanic should work. It doesn't really make sense that you could cast a spell and then an enemy burns their own spell slot by casting Counterspell based on fact that he can see you casting a spell and then you essentially counter that by applying Subtle Spell after the fact, which makes it so that the enemy cannot see you casting the spell. So then, how was he even able to cast Counterspell in the first place? That outcome can't be correct.
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I mean, unless I missed a change in ‘24 the slot is expended at the start, and if you lose concentration during the casting duration you don’t get it back.
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I mean, unless I missed a change in ‘24 the slot is expended at the start, and if you lose concentration during the casting duration you don’t get it back.
It's in the magic action:
If you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 minute or longer, you must take the Magic action on each turn of that casting, and you must maintain Concentration while you do so. If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot. See also “Concentration.”
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I mean, unless I missed a change in ‘24 the slot is expended at the start, and if you lose concentration during the casting duration you don’t get it back.
It's in the magic action:
If you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 minute or longer, you must take the Magic action on each turn of that casting, and you must maintain Concentration while you do so. If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot. See also “Concentration.”
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I was thinking along these lines as well, but your mention of Counterspell is actually causing me to change my mind. The scenario of casting a 1 Action spell and getting Counterspelled is quite relevant to the overall discussion about how the Sorcery Points mechanic should work. It doesn't really make sense that you could cast a spell and then an enemy burns their own spell slot by casting Counterspell based on fact that he can see you casting a spell and then you essentially counter that by applying Subtle Spell after the fact, which makes it so that the enemy cannot see you casting the spell. So then, how was he even able to cast Counterspell in the first place? That outcome can't be correct.
I didn't mean that, sorry. That's not how I understand Counterspell either. And as DM it's a scenario or outcome I wouldn't allow.
If you're using Counterspell, it's because the spell has already been cast (not fully, of course, because the effects of a spell won't occur), so the Sorcerer has already applied (or not) Metamagic to it.
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I mean, unless I missed a change in ‘24 the slot is expended at the start, and if you lose concentration during the casting duration you don’t get it back.
Similar to 2014, really:
Longer Casting Times
Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so. If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
Good conversation, and there are multiple interpretations that could be valid.
I guess the question is are you casting the spell every round you use the Magic action, or is the spell cast the first round and the magic action is just maintaining the casting until the requisite time is up as part of the action economy so you can't take a different action while casting a longer duration casting?
In the first case, when it comes time to take the Magic Action and cast the spell again on your turn, you could use any metamagic (still limited to one for the entire casting). Normally, you would probably wait until the end and cast your metamagic on the last casting so it can't be wasted by a later concentration break. But this would allow you to cast the Subtle Spell metamagic in response to the silence spell.
In the second case, you are just maintaining the spell, so no components apply and you would not need to use Subtle Spell to counteract a silence spell. You would need to use your metamagic the first round you cast the spell since in this scenario that is when the spell is cast.
In balance, I agree with the majority opinion (first case) as it makes a better use of the rules and seems cleaner to adjudicate. For example, what happens if a crocodile bites you, making you grappled and restrained, and then submerges with you under the water? Apply the holding breath rules and concentration rules to see if you can get your longer casting time spell off. If you apply the common interpretation that talking underwater (verbal component) uses up all your held breath, suddenly casting that spell is a lot more complicated. An unlikely scenario granted, but it shows how the rules can be applied easier under the first case.
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The Player's Handbook specifies that a Metamagic option is added when casting a spell. If a spell has a casting time greater than an action, is it possible to add Metamagic to that spell at any point during the casting time, or does it have to be applied when the Cast a Spell action is taken?
Not sure why it'd be relevant- casting times jump from 1 action/bonus action/reaction to 1 minute. Pretty much no combat lasts that long in-game time, and even when it does you'll be very unlikely to hold concentration through it. Out of combat the requisite time will pretty much always just immediately elapse from the player perspective unless the DM is throwing a curve ball at the party, which returns to the part where you're unlikely to be able to hold the casting.
What exactly are you aiming for with this?
Who said I was aiming for anything, and why does it matter? A simple yes or no will answer the question if there's a ruling for it. I couldn't find one anywhere.
If you must have a hypothetical scenario, let's say the party is in a situation where they've got one opportunity to cast a one-minute spell, and then partway through, unexpected enemies show up. Either they cast Silence as part of their ambush, or demonstrate some other magical ability that suggests they might have Silence too. Can the spellcaster apply Subtle Spell at that time to ensure the spell isn't disrupted?
I don't know of any official ruling on it- probably because it's the sort of thing that would take a really really rare circumstance to come up. If we really drill down on the wording, it looks like under 2024 rules you are only casting the spell in the sense that you need to meet the pre-reqs- spell slot, components, etc.- during the first action, so no you cannot throw in a Metamagic on the fly, but you also can't disrupt the cast with a Silence spell since you're just taking the Magic Action to hold your spell in place. 2014 specifically says you spend the action casting the spell every turn, so you arguably have a case there. Granted, this is all very abstract theorycrafting because by any practical measure it's more effective to either just hit you in the face to make you lose Concentration or just let it ride since you won't be contributing to the fight while you're mid cast and there's little to nothing that would meaningfully impact a combat scenario with a 1 minute cast time.
As The_Ace_of_Rogues already stated, this type of things would be far too often a rare scenario, but I can see a case where it could come up, the 10 minute long casting of Prayer of Healing by either a Cleric or a Paladin, alternatively during the (ritual) casting of Find Familiar at 1 hour/1 hour & 10 minutes.
I would say that the Magic Action is unclear and the section on components or casting spells doesn't cover it either. As such it'll be down to a DM to interpret.
I'd personally say that you need to fulfil the component requirements for the entire casting, the section on concentration is just an extra prerequisite you must also achieve for the duration of casting, I would also say that you can only take the meta magic option during your turn however the silence effect would not impede your casting until your turn as such you could use the subtle spell meta magic since you are actively casting a spell. But I could also very well just play it like The_Ace_of_Rogues says so that it's less interruption to the actual encounter as people get confused over what is/is not allowed.
If you're going to interrupt such spells (something I'd probably only do in egregious resting situations/casting places, I.e. lets rest in this kobold infested cave with out securing a safe/defensible area) then I'd probably make it more the case that the spell is going to be interrupted at a point where narrative the player has to decide between trying to maintain the spell or dropping it to engage in combat.
I'd allow postponing the decision to use Metamagic until the slot is actually expended, since that's when the spell is really cast.
Or it's at least a clean solution to me. That way, if your spell is counterspelled, for example, you don't lose Sorcery Points. Same if your Concentration is broken.
And it's true that for spells requiring the Magic action (EDIT: I mean, 1 Action), a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to cast, it doesn't really matter.
I'd say yes, but it will probably never matter.
I was thinking along these lines as well, but your mention of Counterspell is actually causing me to change my mind. The scenario of casting a 1 Action spell and getting Counterspelled is quite relevant to the overall discussion about how the Sorcery Points mechanic should work. It doesn't really make sense that you could cast a spell and then an enemy burns their own spell slot by casting Counterspell based on fact that he can see you casting a spell and then you essentially counter that by applying Subtle Spell after the fact, which makes it so that the enemy cannot see you casting the spell. So then, how was he even able to cast Counterspell in the first place? That outcome can't be correct.
I mean, unless I missed a change in ‘24 the slot is expended at the start, and if you lose concentration during the casting duration you don’t get it back.
It's in the magic action:
To me since you use Metamagic to modify spells you cast, spells that require more time to cast are eligible for as long as you're doing so.
I see. Thanks
I didn't mean that, sorry. That's not how I understand Counterspell either. And as DM it's a scenario or outcome I wouldn't allow.
If you're using Counterspell, it's because the spell has already been cast (not fully, of course, because the effects of a spell won't occur), so the Sorcerer has already applied (or not) Metamagic to it.
From Counterspell:
EDIT: for clarity.
Similar to 2014, really:
I stand corrected. Interesting.
By the way, this nice conversation reminded me of this thread I created about Longer Casting Time using the 2024 rules: 2024 Bonus Action or Reaction spells while casting spells with Longer Casting Times
Good conversation, and there are multiple interpretations that could be valid.
I guess the question is are you casting the spell every round you use the Magic action, or is the spell cast the first round and the magic action is just maintaining the casting until the requisite time is up as part of the action economy so you can't take a different action while casting a longer duration casting?
In the first case, when it comes time to take the Magic Action and cast the spell again on your turn, you could use any metamagic (still limited to one for the entire casting). Normally, you would probably wait until the end and cast your metamagic on the last casting so it can't be wasted by a later concentration break. But this would allow you to cast the Subtle Spell metamagic in response to the silence spell.
In the second case, you are just maintaining the spell, so no components apply and you would not need to use Subtle Spell to counteract a silence spell. You would need to use your metamagic the first round you cast the spell since in this scenario that is when the spell is cast.
In balance, I agree with the majority opinion (first case) as it makes a better use of the rules and seems cleaner to adjudicate. For example, what happens if a crocodile bites you, making you grappled and restrained, and then submerges with you under the water? Apply the holding breath rules and concentration rules to see if you can get your longer casting time spell off. If you apply the common interpretation that talking underwater (verbal component) uses up all your held breath, suddenly casting that spell is a lot more complicated. An unlikely scenario granted, but it shows how the rules can be applied easier under the first case.