When calculating damage for magic stone used with a sling, do you take the sling's damage and add it to the magic stone's damage, or do you simply take the magic stone's damage?
So, for example, if my hit damage with magic stone is 1d6+2, do I add my sling damage of 1d4+2?
Would I then be able to add +3 more to the attack and add 3 more to the damage of the magic stone?
This is my issue then if that is not the case; while everyone else’s main attacks go up as they level (martial characters get + weapons), and normal cantrips go up as well as the caster levels, Magic Stone never changes, so it will get worse over time. Have fun using that stone against anything at level 17... YAY, I did 1d6+5 against that dragon! Whereas the mage is doing 4d8 with a Chill Touch. Not that 1d6+8 is much better, but it doesn’t break the game either.
So I think that maybe if you have a sling +3, you would be able to add it to the attack and damage, just like everyone else. The stones are magical, so it would be no different than if you shot a +1 arrow with a +3 bow. You’d still get the +3, right?
No, you would not get the +3. It is a spell that you can launch through a weapon, not a weapon attack. It is a shame that Magic Stone doesn't level up over time, but it's an incredibly good spell early on - since it allows you to add your spellcasting modifier - and you are also able to give decent attacks to other people.
If you ever have weak NPC companions, such as if you're doing an escort quest or defending a town or something, you can use a single bonus action to allow 3 of them to make a 1d6+your spellcasting modifier ranged attack. That's pretty darn potent.
I believe this is why it doesn't level up over time. All you need is 3 commoners and you can do 3d6 + 3x your spell modifier damage as a bonus action.
I think that magic stone is strictly worse than shillelagh in this way. Magic stone says that the caster makes a ranged spell attack with the weapon, whereas shillelagh says that it changes the weapon's properties. I would say that if you attacked with some +3 club, shillelagh would get that bonus. I'm not sure that magic stone is the same, since you're not making a ranged weapon attack with the sling, you are using it to cast a spell. But, if you get some + to your spell attacks, then I'd say you get that.
Yes magic stone gets worse over time, but the thing about it (as well as shillelagh) is that they themselves don't scale because they're modifying attacks that might scale in other ways. As I said, magic stone requires a spell attack and I'm not sure if making a "ranged spell attack" constitutes using the attack action or the cast a spell action. But, if you can use extra attack with one of these spells, or hand the stones to npcs to throw for you, then they gain value that way and have to be balanced as such.
I have yet to do it, but using Conjure Animals to summon some flying creatures or Apes or something to drop/throw them would be an extremely potent combination. Magic Stone is a bonus action so you could still stand back and launch cantrips as your beasts hurl the stones. Lots of damage potential.
Another thing to consider is that 1d6+5 compares poorly to 4d8, but 1d6+4 compares ok with 2d8, and by the time that your cantrips are doing 4d8 damage, you likely aren't using them round after round. Also, by that time, you've had plenty of opportunity to pick up a scaling cantrip.
Edit: Also, by the time the wizard is doing 4d8 damage, the lock and fighter are doing 4d10+20 damage without expending resources. Even the 4d8 damage seems pretty pathetic then.
I think that magic stone is strictly worse than shillelagh in this way. Magic stone says that the caster makes a ranged spell attack with the weapon, whereas shillelagh says that it changes the weapon's properties. I would say that if you attacked with some +3 club, shillelagh would get that bonus. I'm not sure that magic stone is the same, since you're not making a ranged weapon attack with the sling, you are using it to cast a spell. But, if you get some + to your spell attacks, then I'd say you get that.
Yes magic stone gets worse over time, but the thing about it (as well as shillelagh) is that they themselves don't scale because they're modifying attacks that might scale in other ways. As I said, magic stone requires a spell attack and I'm not sure if making a "ranged spell attack" constitutes using the attack action or the cast a spell action. But, if you can use extra attack with one of these spells, or hand the stones to npcs to throw for you, then they gain value that way and have to be balanced as such.
I disagree here. Shillelagh may be better then magic stone, doing 1d8+spellcasting modifier, BUT, magic stone has 3 stone. So that is 3d6+spellcasting modifier. Early in the game, that is powerful, had it to some NPCs or other mages and now you have 3d6+spellcasting modifier in a round.
True at tier 1 handing a stone to another spell caster or to some NPCs might be valuable, but you are taking their options away. You aren't gaining all that damage, only the difference between what they could have done with the stone vs what they could have done without it. For a PC, I would expect that difference to be 1 or 2 points on average in low tiers (1d8 vs 1d6+3). For a commoner given a short now instead, I'd expect the damage difference to be 3-5 (accounting for spell casting mod and reduced hit chance).
I think it would be more effective than you'd think.
In tier 2, if you Conjure 4 Apes, you can turn three of their +5's to hit into a +7 or +8, their 1d6+3 damage into 1d6+4 or +5, and their range from 25/50 to straight up 60. That's a huge improvement all around; the increased chance to hit alone is worth it, it does a potential 6 more damage every round, has way more range, and don't forget that it's a Bonus Action to cast. Druids don't typically have a whole lot of stuff they can do with a bonus action, at least not on every single turn (unless they have Flaming Sphere active or something; different situation) so this simple combination can allow for a heck of a lot of damage potential. If you do need to take a turn off to use your BA for something else, they can just throw their normal stones.
And then of course the Druid still has their action on top of that. 3d6+ 3x spell casting mod, plus 1d6+3 (4th Ape), plus 2d8 from Fire Bolt (or whatever,) at level 5 isn't anything to sneeze at. That's, what, 41 average damage if your spellcasting mod is +5? With almost all the attacks being a +8 to hit? And all from a nice safe range.
I'm also just using Apes as an example since they're the most humanoid and can clearly already throw rocks, but technically anything could throw a Magic Stone. Summon 8 Giant Owls and have 3 of them throw them - even dip down to grab them off the ground on their turn and fly back up before throwing them - and the other 5 fly around harrowing the enemies and granting advantage with Help.
My point is that Magic Stone (and Shillelagh) don't improve at higher tiers for a reason; it would be very easy to exploit them if they did. Both are spells that are great at combining with other things.
I'd like to someday try a multiclass Druid/Ranger/Fighter that focuses on Wisdom and uses Shillelagh on a quarterstaff to fight. Think it would be a lot of fun.
You are right, of course. Estimating that a +5 to hit gives ~50% chance to hit, you are taking the expected damage for each ape from 3.25 (50% of 3.5+3) to 5.525 (65% of 3.5+5). You add about 6.8 total points (~2.3 each) to the attacks of the apes. Not negligible, especially if you don't have something better to do with a bonus action. But I was just reminding you that you aren't going from 0 to 16.6 damage for the apes, you are going from 9.8 to 16.6 damage.
Yeah, honestly I didn't actually look at the Ape before my first post and didn't know about it's Rock attack. I just wanted to nip any potential "but how would a Beast throw a stone?!" arguments in the bud by naming one that clearly could. Shot myself in the foot a bit with that one, apparently they're better at it than I thought ;) It would improve their attack, certainly, but it's definitely better meant for a creature with no ranged attacks of their own.
This seems backwards to me, why would they include the tidbit about being able to use either a Sling, or thrown by hand, if both options yielded the same damage?
This seems backwards to me, why would they include the tidbit about being able to use either a Sling, or thrown by hand, if both options yielded the same damage?
This seems backwards to me, why would they include the tidbit about being able to use either a Sling, or thrown by hand, if both options yielded the same damage?
Throwing it is a 60-foot range. By using a Sling it extends the range to 120 feet, and it also then counts as “an attack with a ranged weapon” so things like Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack can work with it too.
This seems backwards to me, why would they include the tidbit about being able to use either a Sling, or thrown by hand, if both options yielded the same damage?
Throwing it is a 60-foot range. By using a Sling it extends the range to 120 feet, and it also then counts as “an attack with a ranged weapon” so things like Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack can work with it too.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. 1d6+spell mod with sneak attack makes the Swashbuckler Hexblade fantastic at range, especially for a BA when you already get free disengage. Just make sure your sling is loaded before battle.
Casting Magic Stone is a bonus action, the attack is not however. The attack is a ranged spell attack, but you still use the attack action and simply make these attacks instead of normal weapon attacks when using these stones as ammunition. So, if you want to hurl a stone it would still use one of your normal attacks, but on the upside, since drawing ammunition is free and done as part of the attack made with it, if you have Extra Attack, you could hurl two of these in the same round.
When calculating damage for magic stone used with a sling, do you take the sling's damage and add it to the magic stone's damage, or do you simply take the magic stone's damage?
So, for example, if my hit damage with magic stone is 1d6+2, do I add my sling damage of 1d4+2?
In the context of magic stone, the only thing a sling does (that I can tell) is change the range.
On the topic of range, a sling is 30’/120’. How do you interpret its interaction with magic stone?
I believe you would just take the Magic Stone damage, it's an enhancer. And it makes the ammunition magical, for the purpose of overcoming resistance.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
So what if I have a sling +3?
Would I then be able to add +3 more to the attack and add 3 more to the damage of the magic stone?
This is my issue then if that is not the case; while everyone else’s main attacks go up as they level (martial characters get + weapons), and normal cantrips go up as well as the caster levels, Magic Stone never changes, so it will get worse over time. Have fun using that stone against anything at level 17... YAY, I did 1d6+5 against that dragon! Whereas the mage is doing 4d8 with a Chill Touch. Not that 1d6+8 is much better, but it doesn’t break the game either.
So I think that maybe if you have a sling +3, you would be able to add it to the attack and damage, just like everyone else. The stones are magical, so it would be no different than if you shot a +1 arrow with a +3 bow. You’d still get the +3, right?
Thoughts?
No, you would not get the +3. It is a spell that you can launch through a weapon, not a weapon attack. It is a shame that Magic Stone doesn't level up over time, but it's an incredibly good spell early on - since it allows you to add your spellcasting modifier - and you are also able to give decent attacks to other people.
If you ever have weak NPC companions, such as if you're doing an escort quest or defending a town or something, you can use a single bonus action to allow 3 of them to make a 1d6+your spellcasting modifier ranged attack. That's pretty darn potent.
I believe this is why it doesn't level up over time. All you need is 3 commoners and you can do 3d6 + 3x your spell modifier damage as a bonus action.
I think that magic stone is strictly worse than shillelagh in this way. Magic stone says that the caster makes a ranged spell attack with the weapon, whereas shillelagh says that it changes the weapon's properties. I would say that if you attacked with some +3 club, shillelagh would get that bonus. I'm not sure that magic stone is the same, since you're not making a ranged weapon attack with the sling, you are using it to cast a spell. But, if you get some + to your spell attacks, then I'd say you get that.
Yes magic stone gets worse over time, but the thing about it (as well as shillelagh) is that they themselves don't scale because they're modifying attacks that might scale in other ways. As I said, magic stone requires a spell attack and I'm not sure if making a "ranged spell attack" constitutes using the attack action or the cast a spell action. But, if you can use extra attack with one of these spells, or hand the stones to npcs to throw for you, then they gain value that way and have to be balanced as such.
I have yet to do it, but using Conjure Animals to summon some flying creatures or Apes or something to drop/throw them would be an extremely potent combination. Magic Stone is a bonus action so you could still stand back and launch cantrips as your beasts hurl the stones. Lots of damage potential.
Another thing to consider is that 1d6+5 compares poorly to 4d8, but 1d6+4 compares ok with 2d8, and by the time that your cantrips are doing 4d8 damage, you likely aren't using them round after round. Also, by that time, you've had plenty of opportunity to pick up a scaling cantrip.
Edit: Also, by the time the wizard is doing 4d8 damage, the lock and fighter are doing 4d10+20 damage without expending resources. Even the 4d8 damage seems pretty pathetic then.
I disagree here. Shillelagh may be better then magic stone, doing 1d8+spellcasting modifier, BUT, magic stone has 3 stone. So that is 3d6+spellcasting modifier. Early in the game, that is powerful, had it to some NPCs or other mages and now you have 3d6+spellcasting modifier in a round.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
True at tier 1 handing a stone to another spell caster or to some NPCs might be valuable, but you are taking their options away. You aren't gaining all that damage, only the difference between what they could have done with the stone vs what they could have done without it. For a PC, I would expect that difference to be 1 or 2 points on average in low tiers (1d8 vs 1d6+3). For a commoner given a short now instead, I'd expect the damage difference to be 3-5 (accounting for spell casting mod and reduced hit chance).
I think it would be more effective than you'd think.
In tier 2, if you Conjure 4 Apes, you can turn three of their +5's to hit into a +7 or +8, their 1d6+3 damage into 1d6+4 or +5, and their range from 25/50 to straight up 60. That's a huge improvement all around; the increased chance to hit alone is worth it, it does a potential 6 more damage every round, has way more range, and don't forget that it's a Bonus Action to cast. Druids don't typically have a whole lot of stuff they can do with a bonus action, at least not on every single turn (unless they have Flaming Sphere active or something; different situation) so this simple combination can allow for a heck of a lot of damage potential. If you do need to take a turn off to use your BA for something else, they can just throw their normal stones.
And then of course the Druid still has their action on top of that. 3d6+ 3x spell casting mod, plus 1d6+3 (4th Ape), plus 2d8 from Fire Bolt (or whatever,) at level 5 isn't anything to sneeze at. That's, what, 41 average damage if your spellcasting mod is +5? With almost all the attacks being a +8 to hit? And all from a nice safe range.
I'm also just using Apes as an example since they're the most humanoid and can clearly already throw rocks, but technically anything could throw a Magic Stone. Summon 8 Giant Owls and have 3 of them throw them - even dip down to grab them off the ground on their turn and fly back up before throwing them - and the other 5 fly around harrowing the enemies and granting advantage with Help.
My point is that Magic Stone (and Shillelagh) don't improve at higher tiers for a reason; it would be very easy to exploit them if they did. Both are spells that are great at combining with other things.
I'd like to someday try a multiclass Druid/Ranger/Fighter that focuses on Wisdom and uses Shillelagh on a quarterstaff to fight. Think it would be a lot of fun.
You are right, of course. Estimating that a +5 to hit gives ~50% chance to hit, you are taking the expected damage for each ape from 3.25 (50% of 3.5+3) to 5.525 (65% of 3.5+5). You add about 6.8 total points (~2.3 each) to the attacks of the apes. Not negligible, especially if you don't have something better to do with a bonus action. But I was just reminding you that you aren't going from 0 to 16.6 damage for the apes, you are going from 9.8 to 16.6 damage.
Yeah, honestly I didn't actually look at the Ape before my first post and didn't know about it's Rock attack. I just wanted to nip any potential "but how would a Beast throw a stone?!" arguments in the bud by naming one that clearly could. Shot myself in the foot a bit with that one, apparently they're better at it than I thought ;) It would improve their attack, certainly, but it's definitely better meant for a creature with no ranged attacks of their own.
Well, the other thing that this does is to make their attacks magical, possibly adding damage in that way (though not useful for shepherd druids).
So it is quite valuable, I just wanted to point out that the value isn't the entire face value.
This seems backwards to me, why would they include the tidbit about being able to use either a Sling, or thrown by hand, if both options yielded the same damage?
Because you can throw it farther with a sling.
Throwing it is a 60-foot range. By using a Sling it extends the range to 120 feet, and it also then counts as “an attack with a ranged weapon” so things like Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack can work with it too.
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Ding ding ding, we have a winner. 1d6+spell mod with sneak attack makes the Swashbuckler Hexblade fantastic at range, especially for a BA when you already get free disengage. Just make sure your sling is loaded before battle.
Casting Magic Stone is a bonus action, the attack is not however. The attack is a ranged spell attack, but you still use the attack action and simply make these attacks instead of normal weapon attacks when using these stones as ammunition. So, if you want to hurl a stone it would still use one of your normal attacks, but on the upside, since drawing ammunition is free and done as part of the attack made with it, if you have Extra Attack, you could hurl two of these in the same round.
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