So in the recent 2024 Errata, WotC did great work, and I want to thank them for it. I don't mean to be all negative. Here's a link to it for reference.
WotC seems to be in a bubble where they don't actually understand how the game plays at higher level. Conjure Minor Elementals was way too powerful relative to other options at high level, and it was obvious to hundreds of experienced players as soon as we laid eyes on it. How did this make it through to being published?
And now that they finally give it the nerf that it needs to bring it down to where it should be... they bring along two other random spells that weren't problematic at all?! Do they even understand what the problem was? The most ridiculous inclusion in the nerf list is Conjure Elemental, which sadly went from a standard spell in many a caster's 2014 repertoire to an absolute trap in 2024. It needed errata to be weaker like I need a hole in the head.
WotC... my friends... just reach out. Just check with us. We are here for you.
I must admit I lack confidence in Wizards of the Coast’s numerical balancing. I often question whether their designers have firsthand experience with high-level play.
Ya the conjure Elemental nerf seems unwarranted since it can't move and has a very limited range especially since you have to conjure it in an unoccupied space. It wasn't useful in high level play anyway since it's basically a single target save or suck and high cr monsters almost always have legendary resistances. I guess you can use it to draw those out since it's concentration but since the elemental can't move you only reliably force one save.
The conjure fey nerf makes it in line with Mordenkainen's sword, but it makes no sense to nerf conjure fey and not Bigby's hand. If they were trying to make those type of spells more uniform then they definitely failed that assignment. Bigby's hand is by far the best damage dealer of those spells now. Mordenkainen's sword is still just a waste of 250 gold and a preparation slot while Conjure fey is now weaker. Conjure fey is still useful for the frighten on hit, but a fair amount of higher cr monsters are immune to the frightened condition. Dragons notably are not immune though.
I thought something was wrong because I noticed the spell didn't mention what the elemental's move speed was. I am slowly realizing that this might be intended. A 5th level spell with a 5 ft. radius AOE...that can only target one creature at a time?
I thought something was wrong because I noticed the spell didn't mention what the elemental's move speed was. I am slowly realizing that this might be intended. A 5th level spell with a 5 ft. radius AOE...that can only target one creature at a time?
You conjure a Large, intangible spirit from the Elemental Planes that appears in an unoccupied space within range. Choose the spirit’s element, which determines its damage type: air (Lightning), earth (Thunder), fire (Fire), or water (Cold). The spirit lasts for the duration.
Whenever a creature you can see enters the spirit’s space or starts its turn within 5 feet of the spirit, you can force that creature to make a Dexterity saving throw if the spirit has no creature Restrained. On failed save, the target takes 8d8 damage of the spirit’s type, and the target has the Restrained condition until the spell ends. At the start of each of its turns, the Restrained target repeats the save. On a failed save, the target takes 4d8 damage of the spirit’s type. On a successful save, the target isn’t Restrained by the spirit.
If so, the affected area should be something like this when playing on a grid, including that green circle. So "Whenever a creature you can see enters the spirit's space or starts its turn within 5 feet of the spirit", that creature would be affected:
It still can only affect one creature at a time, they get to repeat the save every turn, and in pretty much every scenario I've ever been in, the enemies can simply avoid it.
Compare to something like 5th level witch bolt which is an almost guaranteed hit with your attack bonus, does similar damage up front, and then guaranteed damage for 10 turns.
If for some reason you're in the perfect situation that the enemy has to move through this, and they do so (and dex saves are high), you now have a 5th level spell slot (taking up your concentration) chilling on the other side of a combat encounter you still have to deal with.
Compare to Bigby's Hand. You can grapple them and do similar damage each turn for the same dex save, or you can attack them for way more guaranteed damage, and you don't have to wait for the perfect situation for it to work, you can send the hand to them.
It still can only affect one creature at a time, they get to repeat the save every turn, and in pretty much every scenario I've ever been in, the enemies can simply avoid it. [...]
I'm just playing around with this, please don't take it too seriously, but it's also a possible scenario where three creatures are affected on the same turn:
That... technically works RAW. I don't know how you're supposed to rule this as "intended", but all 3 would make the save and all 3 would get restrained.
I think that makes for an amusing use, but not necessarily a useful one
yeah if it just affected all creatures in its area it would be a upgraded evards black tentacles, which it should be at one level higher, only effecting one creature at a time(outside a simultaneous push which i doubt it intended) its a downgraded evards at one level higher.
Even in the case of a simultaneous push as described above the saving throws would end up being resolved in order via the rule for Simultaneous Events so you still end up with a maximum of only one of those three creatures affected.
This seems like it's meant to be cast in a doorway or other bottleneck area although once one creature is caught the rest can just run straight through it.
And I can do the same thing by casting Bigby's hand in the same door, or any other restraining spell. This costs a 7th level slot for less utility than other options you have.
And I can do the same thing by casting Bigby's hand in the same door, or any other restraining spell. This costs a 7th level slot for less utility than other options you have.
Not to be nitpicky but conjure elemental is a 5th level spell just like Bigby's hand, not a 7th. Also the comparison to Bigby's Hand ignores some aspects. Neither spell occupies its space, but you can damage bigby's hand to end the spell. That's a mixed bag, it's another hp pool to take damage for the party but it can potentially end your spell. Most importantly the elemental is passive, it can trigger on another creature's turn and doesn't require another action or bonus action to activate. This makes it significantly better than Bigby at preventing movement into an area because the creature doesn't have to be in the doorway when you cast the spell or during your turn for it to be able to stop them from going through. If you consider the action to cast a wash, this frees up your bonus action on later turns. The hand also can't damage on the first turn since you need to grapple(not restrain like elemental) the target first before you take the same action to deal damage and it only says that the Hand can choose those options with a bonus action on later turns meaning you can't use your bonus action on the turn you cast it to deal damage. Specifically "When you cast the spell and as a Bonus Action on your later turns, you can move the hand up to 60 feet and then cause one of the following effects:" Bigby's hand can move and scales better, but, as a trade off, isn't as good at locking down a target or area.
So in the recent 2024 Errata, WotC did great work, and I want to thank them for it. I don't mean to be all negative. Here's a link to it for reference.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/changelog#2024CoreRulesErrata
That said... let's get to the negative part.
WotC seems to be in a bubble where they don't actually understand how the game plays at higher level. Conjure Minor Elementals was way too powerful relative to other options at high level, and it was obvious to hundreds of experienced players as soon as we laid eyes on it. How did this make it through to being published?
And now that they finally give it the nerf that it needs to bring it down to where it should be... they bring along two other random spells that weren't problematic at all?! Do they even understand what the problem was? The most ridiculous inclusion in the nerf list is Conjure Elemental, which sadly went from a standard spell in many a caster's 2014 repertoire to an absolute trap in 2024. It needed errata to be weaker like I need a hole in the head.
WotC... my friends... just reach out. Just check with us. We are here for you.
I must admit I lack confidence in Wizards of the Coast’s numerical balancing. I often question whether their designers have firsthand experience with high-level play.
Ya the conjure Elemental nerf seems unwarranted since it can't move and has a very limited range especially since you have to conjure it in an unoccupied space. It wasn't useful in high level play anyway since it's basically a single target save or suck and high cr monsters almost always have legendary resistances. I guess you can use it to draw those out since it's concentration but since the elemental can't move you only reliably force one save.
The conjure fey nerf makes it in line with Mordenkainen's sword, but it makes no sense to nerf conjure fey and not Bigby's hand. If they were trying to make those type of spells more uniform then they definitely failed that assignment. Bigby's hand is by far the best damage dealer of those spells now. Mordenkainen's sword is still just a waste of 250 gold and a preparation slot while Conjure fey is now weaker. Conjure fey is still useful for the frighten on hit, but a fair amount of higher cr monsters are immune to the frightened condition. Dragons notably are not immune though.
Didnt need to be erratead?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/d-d-beyond-feedback/205680-new-broken-spells-needing-errata
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/203675-conjure-minor-elementals
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/209447-conjure-minor-elementals-up-to-12d8-per-attack
Just a few threads talking about how broken the spell was. not to mention the numourus youtube videos saying how broken it was.
The problem with alot of mechanics only comes into play when you multiclass. Multiclassing is the issue, not the abilities themselves in most cases.
You mixed up Conjure Elemental with Conjure Minor Elementals
I thought something was wrong because I noticed the spell didn't mention what the elemental's move speed was. I am slowly realizing that this might be intended. A 5th level spell with a 5 ft. radius AOE...that can only target one creature at a time?
You mean in the case of Conjure Elemental, right?
If so, the affected area should be something like this when playing on a grid, including that green circle. So "Whenever a creature you can see enters the spirit's space or starts its turn within 5 feet of the spirit", that creature would be affected:
Well, to be fair, what I said about "including that green circle" was debated for a similar spell:
- Conjure Animals 2024
- Does Conjure Animals (2024) act like Spike Growth or like Spirit Guardians? (reply #23)
It still can only affect one creature at a time, they get to repeat the save every turn, and in pretty much every scenario I've ever been in, the enemies can simply avoid it.
Compare to something like 5th level witch bolt which is an almost guaranteed hit with your attack bonus, does similar damage up front, and then guaranteed damage for 10 turns.
If for some reason you're in the perfect situation that the enemy has to move through this, and they do so (and dex saves are high), you now have a 5th level spell slot (taking up your concentration) chilling on the other side of a combat encounter you still have to deal with.
Compare to Bigby's Hand. You can grapple them and do similar damage each turn for the same dex save, or you can attack them for way more guaranteed damage, and you don't have to wait for the perfect situation for it to work, you can send the hand to them.
This spell is simply never the best choice
I'm just playing around with this, please don't take it too seriously, but it's also a possible scenario where three creatures are affected on the same turn:
That... technically works RAW. I don't know how you're supposed to rule this as "intended", but all 3 would make the save and all 3 would get restrained.
I think that makes for an amusing use, but not necessarily a useful one
yeah if it just affected all creatures in its area it would be a upgraded evards black tentacles, which it should be at one level higher, only effecting one creature at a time(outside a simultaneous push which i doubt it intended) its a downgraded evards at one level higher.
Even in the case of a simultaneous push as described above the saving throws would end up being resolved in order via the rule for Simultaneous Events so you still end up with a maximum of only one of those three creatures affected.
This seems like it's meant to be cast in a doorway or other bottleneck area although once one creature is caught the rest can just run straight through it.
And I can do the same thing by casting Bigby's hand in the same door, or any other restraining spell. This costs a 7th level slot for less utility than other options you have.
Not to be nitpicky but conjure elemental is a 5th level spell just like Bigby's hand, not a 7th. Also the comparison to Bigby's Hand ignores some aspects. Neither spell occupies its space, but you can damage bigby's hand to end the spell. That's a mixed bag, it's another hp pool to take damage for the party but it can potentially end your spell. Most importantly the elemental is passive, it can trigger on another creature's turn and doesn't require another action or bonus action to activate. This makes it significantly better than Bigby at preventing movement into an area because the creature doesn't have to be in the doorway when you cast the spell or during your turn for it to be able to stop them from going through. If you consider the action to cast a wash, this frees up your bonus action on later turns. The hand also can't damage on the first turn since you need to grapple(not restrain like elemental) the target first before you take the same action to deal damage and it only says that the Hand can choose those options with a bonus action on later turns meaning you can't use your bonus action on the turn you cast it to deal damage. Specifically "When you cast the spell and as a Bonus Action on your later turns, you can move the hand up to 60 feet and then cause one of the following effects:" Bigby's hand can move and scales better, but, as a trade off, isn't as good at locking down a target or area.