The example given in Twinned Spell, Charm Person. Those 2 spells have completely different meanings according to the definitions when compared to that example. Grasping Vine doesn’t even target a creature, it creates a vine, which can then target a creature. Same for Chain Lightning, it creates an extra bolt and then targets an additional creature or object.
The example given in Twinned Spell, Charm Person. Those 2 spells have completely different meanings according to the definitions when compared to that example. Grasping Vine doesn’t even target a creature, it creates a vine, which can then target a creature. Same for Chain Lightning, it creates an extra bolt and then targets an additional creature or object.
Both of the spells mentioned by you meet the condition of Charm Person in the sense that their upcast just targets more things.
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Neither of them have the ability to target as many things they want in an area similar to Fireball. They target a specific amount of things and when upcast, can target more things. They don't do more damage or do more things, they just target more things.
If you want to get SUPER specific(which I'm sure some DMs will), the wording on twinned says "an additional" creature and the new bolt will create a thing that can target up to three? Some will say that isn't "an additional creature" but considering how restrictive twinned spell became I'm not going to take an option away from a class whose entire gimmick is manipulating spells.
Appreciate you going more in depth with it. So from what I’m interpreting is this for ex:
Grasping Vine when twinned won’t create an additional vine, it would just allow the original vine to grapple an additional creature without expending the upcast spell slot…..right?
Chain Lightning when twinned would create a 4th bolt instead of 3, essentially only giving one extra target. It WOULD NOT create the single bolt that would slit into 3 more bolts for basically 4 extra targets?
It's not about the creation of objects. It's about the ability to upcast to target more things. That's it. For chain, yeah you right, it's just one additional target per upcast.
I'm going to reinforce the point of "New twinned is bad" and I don't want to take away from a class who on its own spell list gets like...14 spells to twin. Shit, grasping vine isn't on that list at all. They'd have to be some sort of Bard/Sorcerer thing to potentially get the ability to have both spells in their list.
Grasping vine doesn’t target any creatures at all, and upcasting does not let you target more creatures with the spell. Grasping vine gives you a feature which you can use to attack creatures. Using that feature is not casting the spell; even if it were, upcasting does not let you target more creatures with that attack. It lets you have more grappled at once, which is not at all the same thing.
Grasping vine doesn’t target any creatures at all, and upcasting does not let you target more creatures with the spell. Grasping vine gives you a feature which you can use to attack creatures. Using that feature is not casting the spell; even if it were, upcasting does not let you target more creatures with that attack. It lets you have more grappled at once, which is not at all the same thing.
This is wildly wrong.
You conjure a vine that sprouts from a surface in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The vine lasts for the duration. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine.
Those are the first three lines of 2024 grasping vine. This is why it counts.
Twinned spell requires that you can upcast the spell to target more creatures.
A target is the recipient of an attack roll. The spell requires you to make an attack roll, ergo it has targets. It even talks about said targets. It then closes with saying you can upcast to get additional targets.
I can't say I'm impressed by their idea of improving a poor Class by imposing further restrictions though.
I'm also frustrated by how poorly that spell is written. Specifically, the upcasting part - that is blatantly going to cause arguments at the table, which the entire point of having the rules is to avoid.
"The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4".
Grief. I see that conversation already:
"I upcast GV to L5 and I get 24, 17, 19 and 23 to hit".
"Wow, they all hit! Roll for damage!".
"So that's 12, 16, 14, 28!".
"Uh, you only do damage on the base attacks, the additional attacks only grapple".
"But it increases the number of targets?"
"Yeah, but it only says they're grappled."
"It clearly associates the damage with grappling in the main test though."
"I can see that, I can see why you might think that, but it doesn't say that's what happens, so it doesn't."
"It implies that it does, though..."
When there are two aspects to the spell and they give an option for altering the spell by, eg, increasing the targets,.they really should mention both aspects. "...number of creatures it can grapple and damage..." Or "number of creatures it can grapple (but does not inflict the damage on)..."
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Based on the wording, can Chain Lightning or Grasping Vine be twinned?
Under the 2024 rules, I don't think so. The upcast doesn't say "... can target one additional ...", and those are the keywords to check now. Neither spell has that wording.
When Chain Lightning is upcast, it simply adds more bolts, rather than targeting a second creature when cast. The number of bolts is a secondary effect.
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Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Exactly, that’s what the argument in another discussion has been. Twinned Spell specifically gives an example spell “Charm Person”. If that spell and the wording within that spell wasn’t important, it wouldn’t have been used.
Charm Person, targets ONE creature and when upcast you can target an additional creature. It says nothing about creating something or doing damage or anything like that. It simply says you can target one additional when upcast.
However, neither Chain or Grasping have those words or even the same effects as the spell example given. If that’s the case, then there’s many other spells that could also be included, ie Scorching Ray. Upcasting creates an additional ray, would that not be the exact same thing as Chain? Yet Scorching Ray can absolutely not be twinned, so why/how can Chain?
Then there’s Grasping Vine, it doesn’t even target creatures to begin with, so how is it possible to twin it?
The previous Twin Spell was simpler to breakdown and understand, can’t target self and spell must only target one creature. Not to mention, Jeremy Crawford posted specifically that Chain Lightning cannot be twinned regarding 2014.
Grasping vine doesn’t target any creatures at all, and upcasting does not let you target more creatures with the spell. Grasping vine gives you a feature which you can use to attack creatures. Using that feature is not casting the spell; even if it were, upcasting does not let you target more creatures with that attack. It lets you have more grappled at once, which is not at all the same thing.
This is wildly wrong.
You conjure a vine that sprouts from a surface in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The vine lasts for the duration. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine.
Those are the first three lines of 2024 grasping vine. This is why it counts.
You're reading the spell incorrectly, sorry. The spell reads "The vine can grapple only one creature at a time, and you can cause the vine to release a Grappled creature (no action required)." This is the only part that is modified by the upcasting, which reads "The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4." Upcasting does not let you target more creatures with the attack; it only lets you have more creatures grappled at once. That's why it doesn't count.
Based on the wording, can Chain Lightning or Grasping Vine be twinned?
Under the 2024 rules, I don't think so. The upcast doesn't say "... can target one additional ...", and those are the keywords to check now. Neither spell has that wording.
When Chain Lightning is upcast, it simply adds more bolts, rather than targeting a second creature when cast. The number of bolts is a secondary effect.
--
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Do you have any source for Chromatic Orb not being twinnable? The only argument I can see for disallowing it is that the additional targeting is probabilistic, which isn't the case for chain lighting; chain lighting always lets you target an additional creature for a higher level spell slot with no reliance on die rolls.
I don't have a source, but I would say I wouldn't allow Chromatic orb to be twinned because "you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1" in the case of it doesn't just change the number of targets, it also changes the damage of the spell.
I don't have a source, but I would say I wouldn't allow Chromatic orb to be twinned because "you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1" in the case of it doesn't just change the number of targets, it also changes the damage of the spell.
That I buy; and that too does not apply to Chain Lighting (except by virtue of the additional target meaning more total damage is done).
Based on the wording, can Chain Lightning or Grasping Vine be twinned?
Under the 2024 rules, I don't think so. The upcast doesn't say "... can target one additional ...", and those are the keywords to check now. Neither spell has that wording.
When Chain Lightning is upcast, it simply adds more bolts, rather than targeting a second creature when cast. The number of bolts is a secondary effect.
--
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.
Do you have any source for Chromatic Orb not being twinnable? [...]
It doesn't use the same upcasting wording as Charm Person. It can be upcast to increase its damage and potential leaps, not additional creatures.
Back in the 80’s I was told, when in doubt, read it word for word, don’t add or take away anything. Based on that and the fact an example spell was given in the Twin Soell description, then ONLY spells like or similar to Charm Person can be twinned….period. Chain Lightning, Grasping Vine, Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray, etc do not use the same wording and are not similar to Charm Person. Therefore cannot be twinned.
if no example was given, then yes, I could absolutely see and agree with a broader spectrum of spells being allowed. But that’s just simply not the case
Back in the 80’s I was told, when in doubt, read it word for word, don’t add or take away anything. Based on that and the fact an example spell was given in the Twin Soell description, then ONLY spells like or similar to Charm Person can be twinned….period. Chain Lightning, Grasping Vine, Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray, etc do not use the same wording and are not similar to Charm Person. Therefore cannot be twinned.
if no example was given, then yes, I could absolutely see and agree with a broader spectrum of spells being allowed. But that’s just simply not the case
I'm not sold that the wording of the upcasting has to be identical to the wording of the upcasting of Charm Person. If you read the description for the Twinned Spell feature, it is just saying that Charm Person is an example of a spell "that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature". As long as a spell meets that criterion, it can be Twinned.
Under this interpretation, Grasping Vine is twinnable. "The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one" is enough to satisfy the new 2024 definition of a Target, which includes:
the creature . . . selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
The creature is selected by the spellcaster from within the 30-foot AOE that's defined by the spell.
When it comes to Chain Lightning, the question becomes: Does the Twinned Spell feature require that the ONLY thing that you can do when upcasting is to target one additional creature? Or does it only matter that this is something that CAN be done when you upcast? The text seems to indicate the latter. Which makes Chain Lightning twinnable.
Chain Lightning is able to target creatures and it is also able to target objects. But the upcasting CAN be used to target a creature, so that should be enough to satisfy the requirement.
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On the other hand . . .
I have endured a lot of grief for my explanations of how spellcasting works on these forums. I still believe strongly that there is a distinction between the target of the spell and the 2024 definition of a target of a spell effect (the "affected creatures" from 2014).
IF you are of the opinion that the wording for the Twinned Spell feature is actually talking about adding a target for the spell (which is basically the chosen location for where the spell's effect originates) and NOT merely the spell effect, then the conclusion is that both Grasping Vine and Chain Lightning are NOT twinnable. That's because neither of these spells can be upcast to directly target an additional creature with the casting of the spell, such as what happens when you upcast Charm Person or even a spell like Magic Missile.
(Bonus Question: Is Magic Missile Twinnable?) (Hint: Yes, it is. Does it have to target an additional creature while doing so? No, it does not. The fact that it CAN do so is enough to satisfy the requirement.)
Not in the context of Twinned Spell 24. I mean, the example given is charm person
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I would read "that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature" to mean that the upcast mechanic needs to simply add targets. I think the metamagic is telling you "if and only if X" rather than "if X." I.e, this is the exact condition, rather than a sufficient one. I know that is an interpretation, but I would be surprised if the intention was anything else. If the spell can be upcast with a higher level slot to do anything other than "target an additional creature" then I would put that beyond the scope of the rule.
There is no point in getting into the weeds over what a target is; it really doesn't matter what the target is, the feature is just about changing the number of targets.
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Based on the wording, can Chain Lightning or Grasping Vine be twinned?
Under the 2014 rules, no. Under the 2024 rules, yes.
The example given in Twinned Spell, Charm Person. Those 2 spells have completely different meanings according to the definitions when compared to that example. Grasping Vine doesn’t even target a creature, it creates a vine, which can then target a creature. Same for Chain Lightning, it creates an extra bolt and then targets an additional creature or object.
Both of the spells mentioned by you meet the condition of Charm Person in the sense that their upcast just targets more things.
Neither of them have the ability to target as many things they want in an area similar to Fireball. They target a specific amount of things and when upcast, can target more things. They don't do more damage or do more things, they just target more things.
If you want to get SUPER specific(which I'm sure some DMs will), the wording on twinned says "an additional" creature and the new bolt will create a thing that can target up to three? Some will say that isn't "an additional creature" but considering how restrictive twinned spell became I'm not going to take an option away from a class whose entire gimmick is manipulating spells.
Appreciate you going more in depth with it. So from what I’m interpreting is this for ex:
Grasping Vine when twinned won’t create an additional vine, it would just allow the original vine to grapple an additional creature without expending the upcast spell slot…..right?
Chain Lightning when twinned would create a 4th bolt instead of 3, essentially only giving one extra target. It WOULD NOT create the single bolt that would slit into 3 more bolts for basically 4 extra targets?
It's not about the creation of objects. It's about the ability to upcast to target more things. That's it. For chain, yeah you right, it's just one additional target per upcast.
I'm going to reinforce the point of "New twinned is bad" and I don't want to take away from a class who on its own spell list gets like...14 spells to twin. Shit, grasping vine isn't on that list at all. They'd have to be some sort of Bard/Sorcerer thing to potentially get the ability to have both spells in their list.
Chain lightning yes; grasping vine no.
Grasping vine doesn’t target any creatures at all, and upcasting does not let you target more creatures with the spell. Grasping vine gives you a feature which you can use to attack creatures. Using that feature is not casting the spell; even if it were, upcasting does not let you target more creatures with that attack. It lets you have more grappled at once, which is not at all the same thing.
This is wildly wrong.
You conjure a vine that sprouts from a surface in an unoccupied space that you can see within range. The vine lasts for the duration.
Make a melee spell attack against a creature within 30 feet of the vine.
Those are the first three lines of 2024 grasping vine. This is why it counts.
Twinned spell requires that you can upcast the spell to target more creatures.
A target is the recipient of an attack roll. The spell requires you to make an attack roll, ergo it has targets. It even talks about said targets. It then closes with saying you can upcast to get additional targets.
I can't say I'm impressed by their idea of improving a poor Class by imposing further restrictions though.
I'm also frustrated by how poorly that spell is written. Specifically, the upcasting part - that is blatantly going to cause arguments at the table, which the entire point of having the rules is to avoid.
"The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4".
Grief. I see that conversation already:
"I upcast GV to L5 and I get 24, 17, 19 and 23 to hit".
"Wow, they all hit! Roll for damage!".
"So that's 12, 16, 14, 28!".
"Uh, you only do damage on the base attacks, the additional attacks only grapple".
"But it increases the number of targets?"
"Yeah, but it only says they're grappled."
"It clearly associates the damage with grappling in the main test though."
"I can see that, I can see why you might think that, but it doesn't say that's what happens, so it doesn't."
"It implies that it does, though..."
When there are two aspects to the spell and they give an option for altering the spell by, eg, increasing the targets,.they really should mention both aspects. "...number of creatures it can grapple and damage..." Or "number of creatures it can grapple (but does not inflict the damage on)..."
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Under the 2024 rules, I don't think so. The upcast doesn't say "... can target one additional ...", and those are the keywords to check now. Neither spell has that wording.
Chain Lightning is similar to Chromatic Orb, and Chromatic Orb spell is not twinnable.
When Chain Lightning is upcast, it simply adds more bolts, rather than targeting a second creature when cast. The number of bolts is a secondary effect.
--
Exactly, that’s what the argument in another discussion has been. Twinned Spell specifically gives an example spell “Charm Person”. If that spell and the wording within that spell wasn’t important, it wouldn’t have been used.
Charm Person, targets ONE creature and when upcast you can target an additional creature. It says nothing about creating something or doing damage or anything like that. It simply says you can target one additional when upcast.
However, neither Chain or Grasping have those words or even the same effects as the spell example given. If that’s the case, then there’s many other spells that could also be included, ie Scorching Ray. Upcasting creates an additional ray, would that not be the exact same thing as Chain? Yet Scorching Ray can absolutely not be twinned, so why/how can Chain?
Then there’s Grasping Vine, it doesn’t even target creatures to begin with, so how is it possible to twin it?
The previous Twin Spell was simpler to breakdown and understand, can’t target self and spell must only target one creature. Not to mention, Jeremy Crawford posted specifically that Chain Lightning cannot be twinned regarding 2014.
You're reading the spell incorrectly, sorry. The spell reads "The vine can grapple only one creature at a time, and you can cause the vine to release a Grappled creature (no action required)." This is the only part that is modified by the upcasting, which reads "The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one for each spell slot level above 4." Upcasting does not let you target more creatures with the attack; it only lets you have more creatures grappled at once. That's why it doesn't count.
Do you have any source for Chromatic Orb not being twinnable? The only argument I can see for disallowing it is that the additional targeting is probabilistic, which isn't the case for chain lighting; chain lighting always lets you target an additional creature for a higher level spell slot with no reliance on die rolls.
I don't have a source, but I would say I wouldn't allow Chromatic orb to be twinned because "you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1" in the case of it doesn't just change the number of targets, it also changes the damage of the spell.
That I buy; and that too does not apply to Chain Lighting (except by virtue of the additional target meaning more total damage is done).
It doesn't use the same upcasting wording as Charm Person. It can be upcast to increase its damage and potential leaps, not additional creatures.
Back in the 80’s I was told, when in doubt, read it word for word, don’t add or take away anything. Based on that and the fact an example spell was given in the Twin Soell description, then ONLY spells like or similar to Charm Person can be twinned….period. Chain Lightning, Grasping Vine, Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray, etc do not use the same wording and are not similar to Charm Person. Therefore cannot be twinned.
if no example was given, then yes, I could absolutely see and agree with a broader spectrum of spells being allowed. But that’s just simply not the case
I'm not sold that the wording of the upcasting has to be identical to the wording of the upcasting of Charm Person. If you read the description for the Twinned Spell feature, it is just saying that Charm Person is an example of a spell "that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature". As long as a spell meets that criterion, it can be Twinned.
Under this interpretation, Grasping Vine is twinnable. "The number of creatures the vine can grapple increases by one" is enough to satisfy the new 2024 definition of a Target, which includes:
The creature is selected by the spellcaster from within the 30-foot AOE that's defined by the spell.
When it comes to Chain Lightning, the question becomes: Does the Twinned Spell feature require that the ONLY thing that you can do when upcasting is to target one additional creature? Or does it only matter that this is something that CAN be done when you upcast? The text seems to indicate the latter. Which makes Chain Lightning twinnable.
Chain Lightning is able to target creatures and it is also able to target objects. But the upcasting CAN be used to target a creature, so that should be enough to satisfy the requirement.
----------
On the other hand . . .
I have endured a lot of grief for my explanations of how spellcasting works on these forums. I still believe strongly that there is a distinction between the target of the spell and the 2024 definition of a target of a spell effect (the "affected creatures" from 2014).
IF you are of the opinion that the wording for the Twinned Spell feature is actually talking about adding a target for the spell (which is basically the chosen location for where the spell's effect originates) and NOT merely the spell effect, then the conclusion is that both Grasping Vine and Chain Lightning are NOT twinnable. That's because neither of these spells can be upcast to directly target an additional creature with the casting of the spell, such as what happens when you upcast Charm Person or even a spell like Magic Missile.
(Bonus Question: Is Magic Missile Twinnable?) (Hint: Yes, it is. Does it have to target an additional creature while doing so? No, it does not. The fact that it CAN do so is enough to satisfy the requirement.)
They should have just changed the name of Twin Spell, cause it is a completely new feature then 2014.
Called it something like Enhance Spell or something.
But yes any spell that has the ability to upcast in the 2024 version can have Twinned Spell used on it. It doesn't matter how many targets it can do.
Not in the context of Twinned Spell 24. I mean, the example given is charm person
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I would read "that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature" to mean that the upcast mechanic needs to simply add targets. I think the metamagic is telling you "if and only if X" rather than "if X." I.e, this is the exact condition, rather than a sufficient one. I know that is an interpretation, but I would be surprised if the intention was anything else. If the spell can be upcast with a higher level slot to do anything other than "target an additional creature" then I would put that beyond the scope of the rule.
There is no point in getting into the weeds over what a target is; it really doesn't matter what the target is, the feature is just about changing the number of targets.