One of the sad changes since 2024's update is that they removed the Magic Initiate feats for Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock. While I'm glad that they kept Wizard, Cleric, and Druid, the ones they chose to keep don't make sense to me. By that, I mean that they kept two classes that rely on Wisdom while Wizard only relies on Intelligence. Why not just have either a Druid or a Cleric and have one class that relies on Charisma?
With the new version of the feat, you get to choose the spellcasting ability for the spells it grants — you're no longer restricted to using the ability associated with the class you pick — so that aspect of it isn't really relevant anymore.
They did it because those three are the main classes of their respective "magic types" if you will (arcane, divine, primal). The other classes that have their own lists are—for the most part, anyway—subsets of those lists. And those spells they actually added to those other lists (smites for paly, sorcerous burst for sorc, etc.) are exclusive to those classes because things like magic initiate and magical secrets can't take from them.
I'd consider the lore implications of the feat too.
If your character has the wizard MI, the idea is they spent a little bit of time studying magic but not enough for it to count as a full class level. Same with cleric, or even druid.
But what does it mean for your character to take a warlock MI? Are they entering a pact with a powerful entity but only a little bit? Same with sorcerer, are they awakening magic within themselves but it's just a teensy amount of it?
The one that I think they probably could have kept was Bard, since it makes sense that your character could have picked up a little bardic magic.
Quite honestly, I'd prefer if it Magic Initiate Bard was accessible. Then I can gain access to Vicious Mockery, Hideous Laughter, and Heroism without having to be a Bard.
I spent a little time studying magic so I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Wizard.
I spent a little time studying magic but in nature! I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Druid.
I spent a little time in the faith of a god but left and somehow can still access the faith's magic represented by Magic Initiate - Cleric.
I have managed to access some latent ancestral power represented by Magic Initiate - Sorcerer.
An otherworldly being tempts me but I haven't given in yet. I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Warlock.
I spent time studying magic in college, but it was only my minor. I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Bard.
There is no flavor argument to be made for the class restrictions. You can absolutely justify every single spellcasting class as Magic Initiate choice. The only reasons I can think to justify the restriction is to control access to certain class-specific spells or to deliberately reserve removing the restriction in a later supplement. My gut reaction is that if you want to open it up, do it but keep an eye on Eldritch Blast with certain class/spell combinations (IE, College of Valor Bard + Conjure Minor Elementals + Eldritch Blast + Action Surge may be unpleasant).
There are more and bigger effects that trigger on a hit than pre-2024 so easy access to unlimited multiple attack options can get out of hand easily.
I think it's largely a throwback to the early UA for the 2024 rules. In the early days of playtesting, you had a list of "arcane," "divine," or... I think... "nature" spells. All arcane classes shared the arcane list, all divine classes shared the divine list, all nature classes shared the nature list. If memory serves, Warlocks got Eldritch Blast as some kind of class ability, but it might have been available to everyone (it's been a WHILE since then, I think the docs are still on UA, though). It was roundly disliked and rejected, but in those days, you just picked a magic initiate that fit into one of those classes. When they finalized the 2024 rules, they just picked the three classes with the largest thematic spell lists, which covered most of the spells in the game, except for those spells which are deliberately siloed to specialized classes (e.g. Eldritch Blast and Sorcerous Burst).
In general, when you see something that looks like a kind of half-baked afterthought, you can usually trace it back to the devs just falling back on rules from older editions. It's why Rangers have Favored Enemy, it's why only Warlocks have Eldritch Blast, it's why they can't seem to separate the Oathbreaker Paladin from the Blackguard of old (as if a person who abandons an Oath of Devotion to an unworthy lord suddenly becomes a demon-loving necromancer).
I think it's largely a throwback to the early UA for the 2024 rules. In the early days of playtesting, you had a list of "arcane," "divine," or... I think... "nature" spells. All arcane classes shared the arcane list, all divine classes shared the divine list, all nature classes shared the nature list. If memory serves, Warlocks got Eldritch Blast as some kind of class ability, but it might have been available to everyone (it's been a WHILE since then, I think the docs are still on UA, though). It was roundly disliked and rejected, but in those days, you just picked a magic initiate that fit into one of those classes. When they finalized the 2024 rules, they just picked the three classes with the largest thematic spell lists, which covered most of the spells in the game, except for those spells which are deliberately siloed to specialized classes (e.g. Eldritch Blast and Sorcerous Burst).
A bit of a pity I wish they could have found a middle ground with those spell lists. Like I think there should be a default arcane list which all arcane casters had access to but then wizard would have an additional wizard specific list, warlocks one etc. That way all the lists would be solid but unique. Right now a couple of the lists are just bad.
I think it's largely a throwback to the early UA for the 2024 rules. In the early days of playtesting, you had a list of "arcane," "divine," or... I think... "nature" spells. All arcane classes shared the arcane list, all divine classes shared the divine list, all nature classes shared the nature list. If memory serves, Warlocks got Eldritch Blast as some kind of class ability, but it might have been available to everyone (it's been a WHILE since then, I think the docs are still on UA, though). It was roundly disliked and rejected, but in those days, you just picked a magic initiate that fit into one of those classes. When they finalized the 2024 rules, they just picked the three classes with the largest thematic spell lists, which covered most of the spells in the game, except for those spells which are deliberately siloed to specialized classes (e.g. Eldritch Blast and Sorcerous Burst).
A bit of a pity I wish they could have found a middle ground with those spell lists. Like I think there should be a default arcane list which all arcane casters had access to but then wizard would have an additional wizard specific list, warlocks one etc. That way all the lists would be solid but unique. Right now a couple of the lists are just bad.
How is that different from the way it works right now? Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks share a bunch of spells, as do Clerics/Paladins and Druids/Rangers respectively, with various inclusions/exclusions to create some distinctive elements. Bard is the odd one out, but that's kinda the point- part of their gimmick is being a grab bag from the others to the point that they've adapted Magical Secrets to literally just letting them pull from Cleric, Druid, and Wizard.
I am aware that the Warlock list is notably smaller, but that's due to the fundamental difference in class design- they're not equipped for long-term spell slot blasting and thus have "trap" picks like that cleared out, and several other spells are instead set up to come from Invocations, frequently in ways that make them better able to use those spells than regular casters.
How is that different from the way it works right now? Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks share a bunch of spells, as do Clerics/Paladins and Druids/Rangers respectively, with various inclusions/exclusions to create some distinctive elements. Bard is the odd one out, but that's kinda the point- part of their gimmick is being a grab bag from the others to the point that they've adapted Magical Secrets to literally just letting them pull from Cleric, Druid, and Wizard.
There is also Artificer to consider. Artificer is in a similar state as Bard except they were never allowed as a Magic Initiate pick. However, the Tasha's feat, Artificer Initiate, fills a similar role. It might be interesting to see Bard and Warlock get similar feats.
How is that different from the way it works right now? Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks share a bunch of spells, as do Clerics/Paladins and Druids/Rangers respectively, with various inclusions/exclusions to create some distinctive elements. Bard is the odd one out, but that's kinda the point- part of their gimmick is being a grab bag from the others to the point that they've adapted Magical Secrets to literally just letting them pull from Cleric, Druid, and Wizard.
It's different from the way it works right now... exactly in the way you laid it out. In the original playtests, Wizards, Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, and probably Artificers would have pulled all their spells from the exact same spell list. Clerics and Paladins would have pulled their spells from the exact same spell list. Druids and Rangers would have pulled their spells from the exact same spell list. Any classes/subclasses I missed would have pulled their spells from whichever of the three spell lists were thematic to them. It was entirely standardized, to the point that a couple of the early UA subclasses that were crossovers - Celestial Warlocks, for instance - would have chosen spells from crossover lists rather than having specific spells handed to them.
On the one hand, I appreciated how much it simplified the game. My wife is a newer player who gets overwhelmed by the amount of tiny details she needs to agonize over every time she picks a new class, and this would have simplified it. But on the other hand, it would have created an entirely new option paralysis when she opened the Paladin spell list and saw a hundred goddamn spells. It also reduced the classes down to their class abilities, and it really fumbled the bag on specialized classes like Bards and Warlocks, whose limited spell lists exist to kind of define the class - any unique abilities suddenly had to be these weird class abilities that were just, like, "oh, your bard knows Healing Word" or something like that.
I think it's largely a throwback to the early UA for the 2024 rules. In the early days of playtesting, you had a list of "arcane," "divine," or... I think... "nature" spells. All arcane classes shared the arcane list, all divine classes shared the divine list, all nature classes shared the nature list. If memory serves, Warlocks got Eldritch Blast as some kind of class ability, but it might have been available to everyone (it's been a WHILE since then, I think the docs are still on UA, though). It was roundly disliked and rejected, but in those days, you just picked a magic initiate that fit into one of those classes. When they finalized the 2024 rules, they just picked the three classes with the largest thematic spell lists, which covered most of the spells in the game, except for those spells which are deliberately siloed to specialized classes (e.g. Eldritch Blast and Sorcerous Burst).
A bit of a pity I wish they could have found a middle ground with those spell lists. Like I think there should be a default arcane list which all arcane casters had access to but then wizard would have an additional wizard specific list, warlocks one etc. That way all the lists would be solid but unique. Right now a couple of the lists are just bad.
how do you middle ground having or not having a spell? because I can tell you right now that EB with conjure minor elemental is insanely powerful.
I think it's largely a throwback to the early UA for the 2024 rules. In the early days of playtesting, you had a list of "arcane," "divine," or... I think... "nature" spells. All arcane classes shared the arcane list, all divine classes shared the divine list, all nature classes shared the nature list. If memory serves, Warlocks got Eldritch Blast as some kind of class ability, but it might have been available to everyone (it's been a WHILE since then, I think the docs are still on UA, though). It was roundly disliked and rejected, but in those days, you just picked a magic initiate that fit into one of those classes. When they finalized the 2024 rules, they just picked the three classes with the largest thematic spell lists, which covered most of the spells in the game, except for those spells which are deliberately siloed to specialized classes (e.g. Eldritch Blast and Sorcerous Burst).
A bit of a pity I wish they could have found a middle ground with those spell lists. Like I think there should be a default arcane list which all arcane casters had access to but then wizard would have an additional wizard specific list, warlocks one etc. That way all the lists would be solid but unique. Right now a couple of the lists are just bad.
how do you middle ground having or not having a spell? because I can tell you right now that EB with conjure minor elemental is insanely powerful.
A middle ground would be having a solid but not all encompassing list, with a nice solid list of unique spells for each class. This is for all classes. How many unique spells do bards have, how many do sorcerers have, how many do warlocks have. What like 5 or less for each of them, that is lame. Conjure minor elementals can end up being an exclusive if they want, but I am not sure why. It is broken with or without eldritch blast, and bards who do have access to it can get eldritch blast easily enough anyways. So is it only cool when bards do it. The problem with the spell is how the spell is designed, not who has access to it.
I mean, having a bunch more unique spells on classes that all follow the basic "blaster" model is an iffy proposition. There's only so much room for differentiation when they want approximately even performance, and that's also largely what class abilities exist to cover. And, again, how is "they have a bunch of common spells and these particular ones" meaningfully different from the existing model? What value does creating a core list provide if it's just going to be broken out into the class lists again before the players need to look at it?
I disagree and think it is still broken. Spirit shroud is one level lower is only 1d8 it only works on targets 10 feet from you so its effectively for melee weapons, its side effect is 10 feet of movement slow with its much smaller area. A 1 minute duration instead of 10. And it upscales in damage slower. Though it is a bonus action cast. It is fairly balanced. One spell level is not enough to justify all the perks conjure minor elementals gets over spirit shroud.
The difference being that two classes with strong melee options- especially with the 2024 update to Warlock- get Spirit Shroud, while the class with halfway decent melee survivability with CME has almost no multi attack roll options and the class with several has the staying power of tissue paper if they remain close enough to use it. In a white room, CME sounds good. Practically speaking, you try and use it on anything you wouldn't be better served hitting with a Fireball, it's got a fair chance to come over and smack you right out of it if not onto the ground.
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One of the sad changes since 2024's update is that they removed the Magic Initiate feats for Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock. While I'm glad that they kept Wizard, Cleric, and Druid, the ones they chose to keep don't make sense to me. By that, I mean that they kept two classes that rely on Wisdom while Wizard only relies on Intelligence. Why not just have either a Druid or a Cleric and have one class that relies on Charisma?
With the new version of the feat, you get to choose the spellcasting ability for the spells it grants — you're no longer restricted to using the ability associated with the class you pick — so that aspect of it isn't really relevant anymore.
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They did it because those three are the main classes of their respective "magic types" if you will (arcane, divine, primal). The other classes that have their own lists are—for the most part, anyway—subsets of those lists. And those spells they actually added to those other lists (smites for paly, sorcerous burst for sorc, etc.) are exclusive to those classes because things like magic initiate and magical secrets can't take from them.
I think it was to prevent everyone taking Magic Initiate to get Eldritch Blast. I doubt Sorcerous Burst was a significant problem.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I'd consider the lore implications of the feat too.
If your character has the wizard MI, the idea is they spent a little bit of time studying magic but not enough for it to count as a full class level. Same with cleric, or even druid.
But what does it mean for your character to take a warlock MI? Are they entering a pact with a powerful entity but only a little bit? Same with sorcerer, are they awakening magic within themselves but it's just a teensy amount of it?
The one that I think they probably could have kept was Bard, since it makes sense that your character could have picked up a little bardic magic.
Quite honestly, I'd prefer if it Magic Initiate Bard was accessible. Then I can gain access to Vicious Mockery, Hideous Laughter, and Heroism without having to be a Bard.
I spent a little time studying magic so I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Wizard.
I spent a little time studying magic but in nature! I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Druid.
I spent a little time in the faith of a god but left and somehow can still access the faith's magic represented by Magic Initiate - Cleric.
I have managed to access some latent ancestral power represented by Magic Initiate - Sorcerer.
An otherworldly being tempts me but I haven't given in yet. I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Warlock.
I spent time studying magic in college, but it was only my minor. I can cast a spell represented by Magic Initiate - Bard.
There is no flavor argument to be made for the class restrictions. You can absolutely justify every single spellcasting class as Magic Initiate choice. The only reasons I can think to justify the restriction is to control access to certain class-specific spells or to deliberately reserve removing the restriction in a later supplement. My gut reaction is that if you want to open it up, do it but keep an eye on Eldritch Blast with certain class/spell combinations (IE, College of Valor Bard + Conjure Minor Elementals + Eldritch Blast + Action Surge may be unpleasant).
There are more and bigger effects that trigger on a hit than pre-2024 so easy access to unlimited multiple attack options can get out of hand easily.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I'm kind of glad they didn't those classes have very few uniqueish spells, so I would like to reduce the ways those get handed out.
I think it's largely a throwback to the early UA for the 2024 rules. In the early days of playtesting, you had a list of "arcane," "divine," or... I think... "nature" spells. All arcane classes shared the arcane list, all divine classes shared the divine list, all nature classes shared the nature list. If memory serves, Warlocks got Eldritch Blast as some kind of class ability, but it might have been available to everyone (it's been a WHILE since then, I think the docs are still on UA, though). It was roundly disliked and rejected, but in those days, you just picked a magic initiate that fit into one of those classes. When they finalized the 2024 rules, they just picked the three classes with the largest thematic spell lists, which covered most of the spells in the game, except for those spells which are deliberately siloed to specialized classes (e.g. Eldritch Blast and Sorcerous Burst).
In general, when you see something that looks like a kind of half-baked afterthought, you can usually trace it back to the devs just falling back on rules from older editions. It's why Rangers have Favored Enemy, it's why only Warlocks have Eldritch Blast, it's why they can't seem to separate the Oathbreaker Paladin from the Blackguard of old (as if a person who abandons an Oath of Devotion to an unworthy lord suddenly becomes a demon-loving necromancer).
A bit of a pity I wish they could have found a middle ground with those spell lists. Like I think there should be a default arcane list which all arcane casters had access to but then wizard would have an additional wizard specific list, warlocks one etc. That way all the lists would be solid but unique. Right now a couple of the lists are just bad.
How is that different from the way it works right now? Wizards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks share a bunch of spells, as do Clerics/Paladins and Druids/Rangers respectively, with various inclusions/exclusions to create some distinctive elements. Bard is the odd one out, but that's kinda the point- part of their gimmick is being a grab bag from the others to the point that they've adapted Magical Secrets to literally just letting them pull from Cleric, Druid, and Wizard.
I am aware that the Warlock list is notably smaller, but that's due to the fundamental difference in class design- they're not equipped for long-term spell slot blasting and thus have "trap" picks like that cleared out, and several other spells are instead set up to come from Invocations, frequently in ways that make them better able to use those spells than regular casters.
There is also Artificer to consider. Artificer is in a similar state as Bard except they were never allowed as a Magic Initiate pick. However, the Tasha's feat, Artificer Initiate, fills a similar role. It might be interesting to see Bard and Warlock get similar feats.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
It's different from the way it works right now... exactly in the way you laid it out. In the original playtests, Wizards, Bards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, and probably Artificers would have pulled all their spells from the exact same spell list. Clerics and Paladins would have pulled their spells from the exact same spell list. Druids and Rangers would have pulled their spells from the exact same spell list. Any classes/subclasses I missed would have pulled their spells from whichever of the three spell lists were thematic to them. It was entirely standardized, to the point that a couple of the early UA subclasses that were crossovers - Celestial Warlocks, for instance - would have chosen spells from crossover lists rather than having specific spells handed to them.
On the one hand, I appreciated how much it simplified the game. My wife is a newer player who gets overwhelmed by the amount of tiny details she needs to agonize over every time she picks a new class, and this would have simplified it. But on the other hand, it would have created an entirely new option paralysis when she opened the Paladin spell list and saw a hundred goddamn spells. It also reduced the classes down to their class abilities, and it really fumbled the bag on specialized classes like Bards and Warlocks, whose limited spell lists exist to kind of define the class - any unique abilities suddenly had to be these weird class abilities that were just, like, "oh, your bard knows Healing Word" or something like that.
how do you middle ground having or not having a spell? because I can tell you right now that EB with conjure minor elemental is insanely powerful.
A middle ground would be having a solid but not all encompassing list, with a nice solid list of unique spells for each class. This is for all classes. How many unique spells do bards have, how many do sorcerers have, how many do warlocks have. What like 5 or less for each of them, that is lame. Conjure minor elementals can end up being an exclusive if they want, but I am not sure why. It is broken with or without eldritch blast, and bards who do have access to it can get eldritch blast easily enough anyways. So is it only cool when bards do it. The problem with the spell is how the spell is designed, not who has access to it.
As a note, CME isn't broken any more. Errata was applied a good while back, and it's still good, but not broken.
I mean, having a bunch more unique spells on classes that all follow the basic "blaster" model is an iffy proposition. There's only so much room for differentiation when they want approximately even performance, and that's also largely what class abilities exist to cover. And, again, how is "they have a bunch of common spells and these particular ones" meaningfully different from the existing model? What value does creating a core list provide if it's just going to be broken out into the class lists again before the players need to look at it?
I disagree and think it is still broken. Spirit shroud is one level lower is only 1d8 it only works on targets 10 feet from you so its effectively for melee weapons, its side effect is 10 feet of movement slow with its much smaller area. A 1 minute duration instead of 10. And it upscales in damage slower. Though it is a bonus action cast. It is fairly balanced. One spell level is not enough to justify all the perks conjure minor elementals gets over spirit shroud.
The difference being that two classes with strong melee options- especially with the 2024 update to Warlock- get Spirit Shroud, while the class with halfway decent melee survivability with CME has almost no multi attack roll options and the class with several has the staying power of tissue paper if they remain close enough to use it. In a white room, CME sounds good. Practically speaking, you try and use it on anything you wouldn't be better served hitting with a Fireball, it's got a fair chance to come over and smack you right out of it if not onto the ground.