Many wild shapes have the ability to grapple (often applying additional status effects) or knockdown.
When a PC attempts to do either of these things, their Athletics skill is used. A druid in wild shape retains his normal proficiencies. So, if a druid is proficient in Athletics skill, should their proficiency bonus apply (i.e. save DC becomes 8 + Str Bonus + Proficiency Bonus)?
If a Beast's abilities or attacks provide a calculation for a special grapple (see Constrictor Snake, for example), then you should use the formula provided in the block. Those DCs should be based on your own Proficiency bonus, if one reads the fourth bullet point of Wild Shape to include the Proficiency Bonus your character has as a result of the sum of their levels. That starts to get a little complicated, looking up what the Beast's hidden proficiency bonus is based on their CR, backing that out of their attacks and save DCs, and subbing in your own... but I think it's supported.
If you are performing a grapple that is not a special attack/action of the Beats's statblock (either a normal Grapple attempt made as part of the Attack action, or a special Grapple you can make as a result of one of your class or feat features) still use your Athletics skill as normal. That would be your own Proficiency Bonus (if you and/or the Beast have proficiency in Athletics) + the Beast's strength. Finally, If both you and the Beast have proficiency in Athletics, andif the Beast's statblock has a higher total than you would arrive at by adding Proficiency + Beast strength (rare, but some Beasts might have a hidden untyped bonus), then you can instead use the Athletics value that is printed in their block.
The existing DCs are a bit mysterious; for example, the giant toad is escape DC 13, but is CR 1 with Str 15 (expected DC 12), while the giant constrictor is escape DC 16, but is CR 2 with Str 19 (expected DC 14). I guess constrictor snakes have double proficiency in athletics to grapple.
The grapples in their attacks are not based on their Athletics checks, they are special attacks with special effects (could be that their Athletics score is the same, that would be a happy design synergy, but isn't mechanically what's being checked), and it isn't explicit whether they're drawing bonuses from attributes (and which ones) or other untyped bonuses. That's why I'm suggesting you just back out their proficiency bonus (+2 in both cases), and substitute your own in instead based on your character level.
I agree with DxJxC, you use the DC provided. Just like you use the attack bonus provided. You use the bonus in the stat block of the beast for anything in which the beast is proficient and the druid is not (such as its natural attacks); this should extend to DCs of special abilities. Your game statistics are replaced by the beast’s for everything that isn’t covered by the exceptions — DCs of special abilities are not covered.
Edit: Wildshape rules are unclear and can be confusing, but they certainly don't ever imply that you should be deconstructing monsters. You get their skill bonus or yours (calculated with your new stats, but apparently your old proficiency bonus). I still stand by my original thought on Wildshape: you never need to deconvolute anything or try to figure out how a bonus in a beast's stat block was constructed or guess where it gets its unobvious bonuses from. You just use the value in the stat block for its attacks and special abilities and when applicable for saving throws or skills.
If a Beast's abilities or attacks provide a calculation for a special grapple (see Constrictor Snake, for example), then you should use the formula provided in the block. Those DCs should be based on your own Proficiency bonus, if one reads the fourth bullet point of Wild Shape to include the Proficiency Bonus your character has as a result of the sum of their levels.
That bullet point definitely doesn't apply since proficiency bonus isn't a race or class feature and there's already a more specific rule in Wild Shape that determines if you can use yours (bullet point 1.)
"Proficiencies" are a class feature listed in each class. Whether "Proficiencies" includes only the list of which equipment/skills/saves your Proficiency Bonus applies to, or instead includes the numerical value of that bonus, is arguable. The fact that each Class lists the numerical value on their table is an argument in favor of considering the numerical value of that bonus to be a "benefit of any features from your class." Even if that is not the case, there is an even stronger argument that it is nevertheless a "benefit of any features from... [an] other source" (e.g, your total class levels per the multi-classing rules).
The first bullet point in no way claims that you lose your proficiencies when read in conjunction with the lower bullets, only that you gain "those of the creature."
I understand your perspective, it's a grey-ish area not fully described in the Wild Shape bullets, but I don't see a reason to discount Proficiencies as a retained class/other feature and "definitely" is far too strong of language to use when arguing against it.
Bullet point 4 seems completely irrelevant. The special abilities of beasts are not your class or race features. The text from bullet point 1 relevant to the question is “Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast...” The rest of the bullet point describes what happens to some exceptions. I still don’t see ability DCs in that text (so not relevant).
There certainly also isn’t text that says “figure out what the proficiency bonus of the beast is, then subtract it from all of the bonuses and add your own instead.” Text of that nature would be required if such a complex process were intended. Instead the text tells us to use the bonus the beast has in its stat block for anything that the beast is proficient in that we are not, since that would be a game statistic replaced by bullet 1.
The fact that each Class lists the numerical value on their table is an argument in favor of considering the numerical value of that bonus to be a "benefit of any features from your class."
A character's proficiency bonus depends on their character level (PH chapter 1). It's listed on the class tables purely for ease of reference. Proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the intro text for the classes chapter, it's not listed as a class feature and it doesn't depend on which class(es) you pick.
Even if that is not the case, there is an even stronger argument that it is nevertheless a "benefit of any features from... [an] other source" (e.g, your total class levels per the multi-classing rules).
Even if it were a class feature, the first bullet point is still more specific since it explicitly addresses your proficiencies and thus supercedes the other bullet point. That's the same reason you don't get to keep your HP and hit dice even though they do depend on your classes and are listed in the Class Features section of each class entry.
The first bullet point in no way claims that you lose your proficiencies, only that you gain "those of the creature."
Your proficiencies are part of your statistics, so when Wild Shape says your statistics are replaced with those of the beast's (with some execeptions that don't apply to a monster's special grapple DCs) it's effectively saying you lose those statistics.
If you have a feature that can improve something the beast does (for example, you have a Rogue's Blindsense feature, but your beast form doesn't already have blindsight) (or, you have a rage feature that applies a static bonus on attack damage that the beast form doesn't have), I think it's fairly uncontroversial that you can choose to apply your features to replace/enhance those of the Beast. Do we already disagree on that point?
If not... the attacks and abilities of Beasts include their proficiency bonus as part of the attack or save calculation (see the table of Proficiency Bonus based on CR in the MM). If you retain your own Proficiency Bonus as a class (or other) feature, it should be similarly uncontroversial that you can choose to apply your proficiency bonus instead of that of the beast for anything and everything that the beast applies its proficiency bonus to. Hell I don't even think you have a choice... you can't apply the Beast's proficiency bonus, because you don't have that proficiency bonus, it isn't one of the things that Wildshape grants you? Applying your one and only proficiency bonus to all saves and skills is a given in Beast mode; why wouldn't you also do it for attacks and save DCs too, since that's how proficient attacks/save DCs work?
The only point of disagreement i see here is whether your proficiency bonus is retained as a class feature or entirely replaced by the Beats's, not whether you are able to use that proficiency bonus for your attacks and save DCs while in beast mode... that's just straight up the definition of how proficient attacks and save DCs operate, and I don't see a bullet in wildshape that attempts to create a specific exception to those general rules. And your proficiency bonus clearly hasn't been replaced, because (1) you still have it for saves and skills, and (2) I think there's a pretty strong argument that it's been retained as a benfit of a class or other feature. Ipso facto, if you're allowed to apply a proficiency bonus to attacks or use it to calculate saves at all, the only value you have available for that calculation comes from your character's class levels.
A character's proficiency bonus depends on their character level (PH chapter 1). It's listed on the class tables purely for ease of reference. Proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the intro text for the classes chapter, it's not listed as a class feature and it doesn't depend on which class(es) you pick.
"Proficiencies" appears under the list of "Class Features." Your numerical bonus appears on your class table, along with all other class features. Other than those two qualifications, what other possible criteria could there be for whether something is a "class feature" or not? What's your basis for claiming that this information in particular is not a class feature, but everything else that is presented in the same fashion is a class feature?
Even if it were a class feature, the first bullet point is still more specific since it explicitly addresses your proficiencies and thus supercedes the other bullet point. That's the same reason you don't get to keep your HP and hit dice even though they do depend on your classes and are listed in the Class Features section of each class entry.
The first sentence of the first bullet does strip away all of your game statistics. All of the subsequent sentences and bullets then operate as specific exceptions that start to give some of them back. Among the things that are given back are " the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source." If something is a "class feature," a "race feature," or an "other feature," you have it. You don't get to keep your HP and Hit Dice even though they are features, because one of the bullets specifically says so. No bullet says that you don't keep your proficiency bonus, and indeed the first paragraph says otherwise (since it allows you to continue applying your proficiency bonus to all of your skill and save proficiencies, but also choose to use the printed beast value in some circumstances if it is somehow higher)
Your proficiencies are part of your statistics, so when Wild Shape says your statistics are replaced with those of the beast's (with some exceptions that don't apply to a monster's special grapple DCs) it's effectively saying you lose those statistics.
See second point above. You get them back if they're a feature, because the bullets say you do. if your proficiency bonus isn't a feature then you have a strong argument that it's been replaced... but if that is the case, it is very unclear how you continue to apply your proficiency bonus to your skills and saves, suggesting that that isn't really the case.
How has nobody checked to see if there's been a statement on this exact issue? A Druid is not proficient with the Natural Weapons of a Wild Shape form. The only proficiencies you retain are the ones that you have in your base form. DDB automatically calculates the proper values for every aspect of a Wild Shape form when you add it to your character sheet.
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If you have a feature that can improve something the beast does (for example, you have a Rogue's Blindsense feature, but your beast form doesn't already have blindsight) (or, you have a rage feature that applies a static bonus on attack damage that the beast form doesn't have), I think it's fairly uncontroversial that you can choose to apply your features to replace/enhance those of the Beast. Do we already disagree on that point?
Yes, assuming the Wild Shape rules don't make an exception elsewhere.
If not... the attacks and abilities of Beasts include their proficiency bonus as part of the attack or save calculation (see the table of Proficiency Bonus based on CR in the MM). If you retain your own Proficiency Bonus as a class (or other) feature, it should be similarly uncontroversial that you can choose to apply your proficiency bonus instead of that of the beast for anything and everything that the beast applies its proficiency bonus to.
If you suppose you somehow keep your character's proficiency bonus you'd be in uncharted territory in that case. The general rules assume any given creature is going to have one proficiency bonus in the same way it assumes you're going to have one Strength score. The Wild Shape rules prevent that situation.
Hell I don't even think you have a choice... you can't apply the Beast's proficiency bonus, because you don't have that proficiency bonus, it isn't one of the things that Wildshape grants you? Applying your one and only proficiency bonus to all saves and skills is a given in Beast mode; why wouldn't you also do it for attacks and save DCs too, since that's how proficient attacks/save DCs work?
Wild Shape does grant you the beast's proficiency bonus when it says your statistics are replaced with the beast's. Proficiency bonus is a statistic for monsters just like it is for players. There's even a Statistics by Challenge Rating in the Statistics section of the MM intro.
And your proficiency bonus clearly hasn't been replaced, because (1) you still have it for saves and skills
You only have it for saves and skills you're proficient in. That's a specific exception Wild Shape makes. In any other situation, it has been replaced as mentioned in the first bullet point.
...and (2) I think there's a pretty strong argument that it's been retained as a benfit of a class or other feature. Ipso facto, if you're allowed to apply a proficiency bonus to attacks or use it to calculate saves at all, the only value you have available for that calculation comes from your character's class levels.
Again, supposing you could keep your proficiency bonus, you'd end up with two proficiency bonuses which the general rules don't tell you how to handle.
A character's proficiency bonus depends on their character level (PH chapter 1). It's listed on the class tables purely for ease of reference. Proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the intro text for the classes chapter, it's not listed as a class feature and it doesn't depend on which class(es) you pick.
"Proficiencies" appears under the list of "Class Features." Your numerical bonus appears on your class table, along with all other class features. Other than those two qualifications, what other possible criteria could there be for whether something is a "class feature" or not? What's your basis for claiming that this information in particular is not a class feature, but everything else that is presented in the same fashion is a class feature?
Because proficiencies also appear in the 'Beyond First Level' paragraph, where it specifies that they are based on level, and in the section on multiclassing, it specifies "Your proficiency bonus is always based on your total character level, as shown in the Character Advancement table, not your level in a particular class."
Note that this has no effect on proficiencies only possessed by your beast form; you only apply your personal proficiency bonuses to things you are proficient in.
How has nobody checked to see if there's been a statement on this exact issue? A Druid is not proficient with the Natural Weapons of a Wild Shape form. The only proficiencies you retain are the ones that you have in your base form. DDB automatically calculates the proper values for every aspect of a Wild Shape form when you add it to your character sheet.
The fact that the two tweets on that page aren't SAC, and don't cite any printed rule text is a pretty good hint to your answer. But I will conceed, "druids don't get proficiency in natural weapons" is a good argument for half of this debate (it doesn't address Save DCs though, which is what the discussion started around).
Never said it was SAC; just that it's an answer, and it is in line with what the text of Wild Shape actually says the feature does.
[edit]
It does address the entirety of the issue. You aren't proficient with the Wild Shape form's Natural Weapons. The attacks available to you are those which are available to the beast. Grapples, knockdown, etc are riders on the beast's attacks (which you are not proficient with). The DC is what it says on the attack stat block.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you suppose you somehow keep your character's proficiency bonus you'd be in uncharted territory in that case. The general rules assume any given creature is going to have one proficiency bonus in the same way it assumes you're going to have one Strength score. The Wild Shape rules prevent that situation.
A wildshaped druid only has one Strength score (the beast's form). "In the same way," you only have one proficiency bonus (your character's).
Wild Shape does grant you the beast's proficiency bonus when it says your statistics are replaced with the beast's. Proficiency bonus is a statistic for monsters just like it is for players. There's even a Statistics by Challenge Rating in the Statistics section of the MM intro.
I'll conceed that if you don't keep your Proficiency bonus as a feature, yes, you would be provided the beast's as one of its statistics. I maintain that you can't have both simultaneously however.
You only have it for saves and skills you're proficient in. That's a specific exception Wild Shape makes. In any other situation, it has been replaced as mentioned in the first bullet point.
The first bullet does have an example of what it looks like to apply a proficiency bonus that you don't have: "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." That's a specific exception to the general rules of Ability Checks, which allows you to use the beast's printed bonus in its block instead of the usual [Proficiency if proficient] + Attribute modifier formula that Ability Checks normally use. What is is not is a specific exception operating in the reverse direction, telling you to use your own bonus in place of the Beast's under special circumstances. This is a distinction I'm finding hard to write down without going on for pages and pages... this bullet is telling you to do normal Ability Checks with your proficiency modifier but maybe instead sub in some static printed beast values if it's to your benefit, not telling you to do normal Ability checks with the beast's proficiency modifier but maybe instead sub in your own proficiency modifier and still do a normal Ability Check. Very big difference.
Again, supposing you could keep your proficiency bonus, you'd end up with two proficiency bonuses which the general rules don't tell you how to handle.
I agree, there's no rules for having two bonuses, and that's why I don't think its possible. The way that bullet one tells you to use skills is compatible with the idea that you have only one prof. bonus (your own) but might use a static printed value in the beast block as a substitute. It is incompatible with the idea that you might have only one prof. bonus (the beast's) but but might use a static printed value on your own character sheet as a substitute. So if we only have one proficiency bonus, and if bullet one is written correctly without a missing rule, then the only proficiency bonus that works with it is your own.
It does address the entirety of the issue. You aren't proficient with the Wild Shape form's Natural Weapons. The attacks available to you are those which are available to the beast. Grapples, knockdown, etc are riders on the beast's attacks (which you are not proficient with). The DC is what it says on the attack stat block.
If it is true that Beast DCs are intended to be static values appropriate to challenge rating (like traps and poisons are), and not based on the attributes and proficiency bonus of the creature, then I would concede that you should always just use the Beast's DC. The introduction to the MM never mentions monster's save DCs at all, let alone any relation between those values and the monster's attributes or proficiency bonus... so this is a real possibility I hadn't fully considered. For that matter though, it also doesn't mention that their to-hit or damage values are based on their proficiency bonus or attributes either, so you start to approach a horizon where their attributes and proficiency bonus mean nothing other than making unarmed attacks for 1+str damage? The only thing that the MM specifically says is based on proficiency bonus and/or attributes are Saves, Skills, AC, and HP.
It may be that (1) you retain your proficiency bonus as a class feature, but (2A) you aren't proficient with your beast's natural weapons and so must make their attacks at a lower value than the beast would (just add attribute, no prof. bonus at all) or (2B) proficiency and attributes are irrelevent to your beast's printed attacks because they're static values not calculations, and (3) save DCs are also static values not calculations and thus set in stone regardless of your own proficiency bonus or the beast's adjusted attributes.
Not sure any of that is preferable... but it is troubling.
It's really simple. The first bullet point of Wild Shape literally says:
Throw away your stats, use the beast's...
...except for your skill and saving throw proficiencies and some other exceptions (INT, WIS, CHA...).
If you and the creature have the same skill or saving throw proficiency, you can use your old proficiency bonus.
Therefore, the one and only proficiency bonus you have is the beast's, unless we're talking about a skill or saving throw both the druid and the beast are proficient in.
Even if you take an overly generous interpretation of Wild Shape that allows the druid to use their old PB for their own skill and saving throw proficiencies, that still wouldn't apply to attacks or saving throw DCs (which can be totally arbitrary numbers anyways.)
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Many wild shapes have the ability to grapple (often applying additional status effects) or knockdown.
When a PC attempts to do either of these things, their Athletics skill is used. A druid in wild shape retains his normal proficiencies. So, if a druid is proficient in Athletics skill, should their proficiency bonus apply (i.e. save DC becomes 8 + Str Bonus + Proficiency Bonus)?
If a Beast's abilities or attacks provide a calculation for a special grapple (see Constrictor Snake, for example), then you should use the formula provided in the block. Those DCs should be based on your own Proficiency bonus, if one reads the fourth bullet point of Wild Shape to include the Proficiency Bonus your character has as a result of the sum of their levels. That starts to get a little complicated, looking up what the Beast's hidden proficiency bonus is based on their CR, backing that out of their attacks and save DCs, and subbing in your own... but I think it's supported.
If you are performing a grapple that is not a special attack/action of the Beats's statblock (either a normal Grapple attempt made as part of the Attack action, or a special Grapple you can make as a result of one of your class or feat features) still use your Athletics skill as normal. That would be your own Proficiency Bonus (if you and/or the Beast have proficiency in Athletics) + the Beast's strength. Finally, If both you and the Beast have proficiency in Athletics, and if the Beast's statblock has a higher total than you would arrive at by adding Proficiency + Beast strength (rare, but some Beasts might have a hidden untyped bonus), then you can instead use the Athletics value that is printed in their block.
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The existing DCs are a bit mysterious; for example, the giant toad is escape DC 13, but is CR 1 with Str 15 (expected DC 12), while the giant constrictor is escape DC 16, but is CR 2 with Str 19 (expected DC 14). I guess constrictor snakes have double proficiency in athletics to grapple.
The grapples in their attacks are not based on their Athletics checks, they are special attacks with special effects (could be that their Athletics score is the same, that would be a happy design synergy, but isn't mechanically what's being checked), and it isn't explicit whether they're drawing bonuses from attributes (and which ones) or other untyped bonuses. That's why I'm suggesting you just back out their proficiency bonus (+2 in both cases), and substitute your own in instead based on your character level.
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Chicken Champ already said this, but to emphasise:
You use athletics when you replace an attack with a grapple. When grappling is an effect of a natural weapon, you use the DC provided.
It is save versus DC not an ability contest.
I agree with DxJxC, you use the DC provided. Just like you use the attack bonus provided. You use the bonus in the stat block of the beast for anything in which the beast is proficient and the druid is not (such as its natural attacks); this should extend to DCs of special abilities. Your game statistics are replaced by the beast’s for everything that isn’t covered by the exceptions — DCs of special abilities are not covered.
Edit: Wildshape rules are unclear and can be confusing, but they certainly don't ever imply that you should be deconstructing monsters. You get their skill bonus or yours (calculated with your new stats, but apparently your old proficiency bonus). I still stand by my original thought on Wildshape: you never need to deconvolute anything or try to figure out how a bonus in a beast's stat block was constructed or guess where it gets its unobvious bonuses from. You just use the value in the stat block for its attacks and special abilities and when applicable for saving throws or skills.
That bullet point definitely doesn't apply since proficiency bonus isn't a race or class feature and there's already a more specific rule in Wild Shape that determines if you can use yours (bullet point 1.)
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"Proficiencies" are a class feature listed in each class. Whether "Proficiencies" includes only the list of which equipment/skills/saves your Proficiency Bonus applies to, or instead includes the numerical value of that bonus, is arguable. The fact that each Class lists the numerical value on their table is an argument in favor of considering the numerical value of that bonus to be a "benefit of any features from your class." Even if that is not the case, there is an even stronger argument that it is nevertheless a "benefit of any features from... [an] other source" (e.g, your total class levels per the multi-classing rules).
The first bullet point in no way claims that you lose your proficiencies when read in conjunction with the lower bullets, only that you gain "those of the creature."
I understand your perspective, it's a grey-ish area not fully described in the Wild Shape bullets, but I don't see a reason to discount Proficiencies as a retained class/other feature and "definitely" is far too strong of language to use when arguing against it.
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Bullet point 4 seems completely irrelevant. The special abilities of beasts are not your class or race features. The text from bullet point 1 relevant to the question is “Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast...” The rest of the bullet point describes what happens to some exceptions. I still don’t see ability DCs in that text (so not relevant).
There certainly also isn’t text that says “figure out what the proficiency bonus of the beast is, then subtract it from all of the bonuses and add your own instead.” Text of that nature would be required if such a complex process were intended. Instead the text tells us to use the bonus the beast has in its stat block for anything that the beast is proficient in that we are not, since that would be a game statistic replaced by bullet 1.
A character's proficiency bonus depends on their character level (PH chapter 1). It's listed on the class tables purely for ease of reference. Proficiency bonus is never mentioned in the intro text for the classes chapter, it's not listed as a class feature and it doesn't depend on which class(es) you pick.
Even if it were a class feature, the first bullet point is still more specific since it explicitly addresses your proficiencies and thus supercedes the other bullet point. That's the same reason you don't get to keep your HP and hit dice even though they do depend on your classes and are listed in the Class Features section of each class entry.
Your proficiencies are part of your statistics, so when Wild Shape says your statistics are replaced with those of the beast's (with some execeptions that don't apply to a monster's special grapple DCs) it's effectively saying you lose those statistics.
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If you have a feature that can improve something the beast does (for example, you have a Rogue's Blindsense feature, but your beast form doesn't already have blindsight) (or, you have a rage feature that applies a static bonus on attack damage that the beast form doesn't have), I think it's fairly uncontroversial that you can choose to apply your features to replace/enhance those of the Beast. Do we already disagree on that point?
If not... the attacks and abilities of Beasts include their proficiency bonus as part of the attack or save calculation (see the table of Proficiency Bonus based on CR in the MM). If you retain your own Proficiency Bonus as a class (or other) feature, it should be similarly uncontroversial that you can choose to apply your proficiency bonus instead of that of the beast for anything and everything that the beast applies its proficiency bonus to. Hell I don't even think you have a choice... you can't apply the Beast's proficiency bonus, because you don't have that proficiency bonus, it isn't one of the things that Wildshape grants you? Applying your one and only proficiency bonus to all saves and skills is a given in Beast mode; why wouldn't you also do it for attacks and save DCs too, since that's how proficient attacks/save DCs work?
The only point of disagreement i see here is whether your proficiency bonus is retained as a class feature or entirely replaced by the Beats's, not whether you are able to use that proficiency bonus for your attacks and save DCs while in beast mode... that's just straight up the definition of how proficient attacks and save DCs operate, and I don't see a bullet in wildshape that attempts to create a specific exception to those general rules. And your proficiency bonus clearly hasn't been replaced, because (1) you still have it for saves and skills, and (2) I think there's a pretty strong argument that it's been retained as a benfit of a class or other feature. Ipso facto, if you're allowed to apply a proficiency bonus to attacks or use it to calculate saves at all, the only value you have available for that calculation comes from your character's class levels.
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"Proficiencies" appears under the list of "Class Features." Your numerical bonus appears on your class table, along with all other class features. Other than those two qualifications, what other possible criteria could there be for whether something is a "class feature" or not? What's your basis for claiming that this information in particular is not a class feature, but everything else that is presented in the same fashion is a class feature?
The first sentence of the first bullet does strip away all of your game statistics. All of the subsequent sentences and bullets then operate as specific exceptions that start to give some of them back. Among the things that are given back are " the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source." If something is a "class feature," a "race feature," or an "other feature," you have it. You don't get to keep your HP and Hit Dice even though they are features, because one of the bullets specifically says so. No bullet says that you don't keep your proficiency bonus, and indeed the first paragraph says otherwise (since it allows you to continue applying your proficiency bonus to all of your skill and save proficiencies, but also choose to use the printed beast value in some circumstances if it is somehow higher)
See second point above. You get them back if they're a feature, because the bullets say you do. if your proficiency bonus isn't a feature then you have a strong argument that it's been replaced... but if that is the case, it is very unclear how you continue to apply your proficiency bonus to your skills and saves, suggesting that that isn't really the case.
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How has nobody checked to see if there's been a statement on this exact issue? A Druid is not proficient with the Natural Weapons of a Wild Shape form. The only proficiencies you retain are the ones that you have in your base form. DDB automatically calculates the proper values for every aspect of a Wild Shape form when you add it to your character sheet.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yes, assuming the Wild Shape rules don't make an exception elsewhere.
If you suppose you somehow keep your character's proficiency bonus you'd be in uncharted territory in that case. The general rules assume any given creature is going to have one proficiency bonus in the same way it assumes you're going to have one Strength score. The Wild Shape rules prevent that situation.
Wild Shape does grant you the beast's proficiency bonus when it says your statistics are replaced with the beast's. Proficiency bonus is a statistic for monsters just like it is for players. There's even a Statistics by Challenge Rating in the Statistics section of the MM intro.
You only have it for saves and skills you're proficient in. That's a specific exception Wild Shape makes. In any other situation, it has been replaced as mentioned in the first bullet point.
Again, supposing you could keep your proficiency bonus, you'd end up with two proficiency bonuses which the general rules don't tell you how to handle.
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Because proficiencies also appear in the 'Beyond First Level' paragraph, where it specifies that they are based on level, and in the section on multiclassing, it specifies "Your proficiency bonus is always based on your total character level, as shown in the Character Advancement table, not your level in a particular class."
Note that this has no effect on proficiencies only possessed by your beast form; you only apply your personal proficiency bonuses to things you are proficient in.
The fact that the two tweets on that page aren't SAC, and don't cite any printed rule text is a pretty good hint to your answer. But I will conceed, "druids don't get proficiency in natural weapons" is a good argument for half of this debate (it doesn't address Save DCs though, which is what the discussion started around).
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Never said it was SAC; just that it's an answer, and it is in line with what the text of Wild Shape actually says the feature does.
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It does address the entirety of the issue. You aren't proficient with the Wild Shape form's Natural Weapons. The attacks available to you are those which are available to the beast. Grapples, knockdown, etc are riders on the beast's attacks (which you are not proficient with). The DC is what it says on the attack stat block.
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A wildshaped druid only has one Strength score (the beast's form). "In the same way," you only have one proficiency bonus (your character's).
I'll conceed that if you don't keep your Proficiency bonus as a feature, yes, you would be provided the beast's as one of its statistics. I maintain that you can't have both simultaneously however.
The first bullet does have an example of what it looks like to apply a proficiency bonus that you don't have: "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours." That's a specific exception to the general rules of Ability Checks, which allows you to use the beast's printed bonus in its block instead of the usual [Proficiency if proficient] + Attribute modifier formula that Ability Checks normally use. What is is not is a specific exception operating in the reverse direction, telling you to use your own bonus in place of the Beast's under special circumstances. This is a distinction I'm finding hard to write down without going on for pages and pages... this bullet is telling you to do normal Ability Checks with your proficiency modifier but maybe instead sub in some static printed beast values if it's to your benefit, not telling you to do normal Ability checks with the beast's proficiency modifier but maybe instead sub in your own proficiency modifier and still do a normal Ability Check. Very big difference.
I agree, there's no rules for having two bonuses, and that's why I don't think its possible. The way that bullet one tells you to use skills is compatible with the idea that you have only one prof. bonus (your own) but might use a static printed value in the beast block as a substitute. It is incompatible with the idea that you might have only one prof. bonus (the beast's) but but might use a static printed value on your own character sheet as a substitute. So if we only have one proficiency bonus, and if bullet one is written correctly without a missing rule, then the only proficiency bonus that works with it is your own.
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If it is true that Beast DCs are intended to be static values appropriate to challenge rating (like traps and poisons are), and not based on the attributes and proficiency bonus of the creature, then I would concede that you should always just use the Beast's DC. The introduction to the MM never mentions monster's save DCs at all, let alone any relation between those values and the monster's attributes or proficiency bonus... so this is a real possibility I hadn't fully considered. For that matter though, it also doesn't mention that their to-hit or damage values are based on their proficiency bonus or attributes either, so you start to approach a horizon where their attributes and proficiency bonus mean nothing other than making unarmed attacks for 1+str damage? The only thing that the MM specifically says is based on proficiency bonus and/or attributes are Saves, Skills, AC, and HP.
It may be that (1) you retain your proficiency bonus as a class feature, but (2A) you aren't proficient with your beast's natural weapons and so must make their attacks at a lower value than the beast would (just add attribute, no prof. bonus at all) or (2B) proficiency and attributes are irrelevent to your beast's printed attacks because they're static values not calculations, and (3) save DCs are also static values not calculations and thus set in stone regardless of your own proficiency bonus or the beast's adjusted attributes.
Not sure any of that is preferable... but it is troubling.
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It's really simple. The first bullet point of Wild Shape literally says:
Therefore, the one and only proficiency bonus you have is the beast's, unless we're talking about a skill or saving throw both the druid and the beast are proficient in.
Even if you take an overly generous interpretation of Wild Shape that allows the druid to use their old PB for their own skill and saving throw proficiencies, that still wouldn't apply to attacks or saving throw DCs (which can be totally arbitrary numbers anyways.)
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