A while ago we captured someone who seem to have a lot of info about our BBEG. We our warlock casted suggestion and asked him to "tell us everything you know about him". the DM talked for a while but then stopped abruptly saying the spell is too broken and it shouldn't be possible to have this extent. Though we argued a little bit but ended with the "DM call".
Now in your opinion, should the spell allow someone to spill everything out? i mean we did suggest he tell us everything and didn't find anything in the rules that deny it. I myself have a campaign and kind of understand his stand but i want to be fair both DMs and players.
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Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
The DM could've just ruled "tell us everything you know about him" on its own isn't a reasonable request for the hostage since the BBEG might kill him to set an example and the party has no reason to keep him alive afterwards either. The hostage would know that spilling the beans immediately puts their life at risk.
Ultimately what's reasonable and what's not is up to the DM and highly dependent on circumstances.
This is a situation where things like understanding presentation, story telling, and organizational status can really make the response to the spell unique to the situation.
Let's assume that the prisoner is in the higher echelon of power, the 2nd in command of the organization. "Tell us everything you know about the BBEG" is the suggestion, I'd play this of in a semi-literal sense, but I'd also do it from a point of perspective and what information would be trusted to this 2nd in command.
You'll get information about height, weight, handedness, odd habits, social and physical quirks, favorite food and other fluff information that someone in close proximity might pick up. You'll get information about their last known location, be it a tent out in the fields, a temple in another town, or a base near where they are. You'll get information spilling out about plans, goals, conversations, and other information that the party is looking for. The fun part though is it will be a steady stream of information, and will not necessarily be in any reasonable timeline or structure, just a stream of conscious thought.
Now, if the organization is cell based then you'll get only the information that this person is allowed to know, nothing more. If the organization is loose and open with information, then you'll get more. But the greatest tool is to give the information from the perspective of this prisoner's point of view. It's not going to be neutral, reading from the DM's BBEG notes, it's going to be skewed by the prisoner's ideology and perception.
Let's say that the guy is absolutely enamored by the BBEG, then he's going to make the BBEG out to be some sort of grand personality and he's bringing about a new age of glory. If they feel the BBEG is tyrannical and they don't like him...well the information will be skewed to show that.
Suggestion isn't an "I win" button in this sense, it's merely a way to get information from the point of view of the prisoner.
Conversely if it's just a grunt...well I know he's a Black Dragonborn, likes to drink whiskey and always has wenches visiting his tent. I don't see much of him unless he's telling us to go raid the local villages. The information will be very limited.
The DM could've just ruled "tell us everything you know about him" on its own isn't a reasonable request for the hostage since the BBEG might kill him to set an example and the party has no reason to keep him alive afterwards either. The hostage would know that spilling the beans immediately puts their life at risk.
Ultimately what's reasonable and what's not is up to the DM and highly dependent on circumstances.
Sorry, my friend corrected me we asked him and i quote: "Answer all of our questions truthfully" dunno if it makes any difference but thanks anyway.
This is a situation where things like understanding presentation, story telling, and organizational status can really make the response to the spell unique to the situation.
Let's assume that the prisoner is in the higher echelon of power, the 2nd in command of the organization. "Tell us everything you know about the BBEG" is the suggestion, I'd play this of in a semi-literal sense, but I'd also do it from a point of perspective and what information would be trusted to this 2nd in command.
You'll get information about height, weight, handedness, odd habits, social and physical quirks, favorite food and other fluff information that someone in close proximity might pick up. You'll get information about their last known location, be it a tent out in the fields, a temple in another town, or a base near where they are. You'll get information spilling out about plans, goals, conversations, and other information that the party is looking for. The fun part though is it will be a steady stream of information, and will not necessarily be in any reasonable timeline or structure, just a stream of conscious thought.
Now, if the organization is cell based then you'll get only the information that this person is allowed to know, nothing more. If the organization is loose and open with information, then you'll get more. But the greatest tool is to give the information from the perspective of this prisoner's point of view. It's not going to be neutral, reading from the DM's BBEG notes, it's going to be skewed by the prisoner's ideology and perception.
Let's say that the guy is absolutely enamored by the BBEG, then he's going to make the BBEG out to be some sort of grand personality and he's bringing about a new age of glory. If they feel the BBEG is tyrannical and they don't like him...well the information will be skewed to show that.
Suggestion isn't an "I win" button in this sense, it's merely a way to get information from the point of view of the prisoner.
Conversely if it's just a grunt...well I know he's a Black Dragonborn, likes to drink whiskey and always has wenches visiting his tent. I don't see much of him unless he's telling us to go raid the local villages. The information will be very limited.
Hope my view on this is helpful.
I corrected my sentence in this reply, As far as we know these two has actually been friends.
To explain further this is what happened:
We entered a tower that represent a source of power which is linked to a gem and a host. in that tower we found a time prison where several people were in there locked for over thousand years. After we freed them we found out that the guy i am talking about had himself and other imprisoned and be a sacrifice for the BBEG. He wasn't co-operative so we casted suggestion and said "Answer all of our questions truthfully". We went on and you know the rest.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
interesting reaction but how would it be worded in a proper manner? If you were trying to interrogate someone using suggestion.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Suggestion is only a 2nd level spell. I would argue it will almost never achieve better results in an interrogation than Zone of Truth, also 2nd level but specialized for only interrogation-type situations. It just doesn't have the power to force someone to reveal everything you might want to hear. It could still be very useful, in combination with more mundane interrogation techniques like intimidation or persuasion, plus some compelling role play.
so, figure out ahead specific questions you'd like to know.
For starters. Do you have a healer in your group that cna heal back regrown fingers or ears or something? If you do, you can do a base deception (passing depends on dice roll) that you want to join BBEG's army. Then have one person, cut off body part that can be healed back by your healer, from another member of YOUR OWN party.
Now this hostage dude, is like "what the hell is wrong with these people". Then use suggestion to find the location/way to get in touch with BBEG to "join up" with him.
The guy, might find it reasonable, that you'd join up and want to with the guy, if you're willing to cut off your own body parts to prove your worth.
Suggestion is only a 2nd level spell. I would argue it will almost never achieve better results in an interrogation than Zone of Truth, also 2nd level but specialized for only interrogation-type situations. It just doesn't have the power to force someone to reveal everything you might want to hear. It could still be very useful, in combination with more mundane interrogation techniques like intimidation or persuasion, plus some compelling role play.
Suggestion is single target. Zone of truth is area of effect. Zone of truth informs you of which rounds they have to tell the truth and which they don’t. Suggestion is mult purpose and as has been suggested the wording can be interpreted in a number of ways. Results from Zone of truth are clear .. though the choice of words from the creature can be misleading .. suggestion may not be clear at all.
So, I don’t have a problem with creative uses of suggestion .. the DM however needs to be even more creative in their responses and that can be an issue since not everyone can do “creative on demand” well.
Suggestion is only a 2nd level spell. I would argue it will almost never achieve better results in an interrogation than Zone of Truth, also 2nd level but specialized for only interrogation-type situations. It just doesn't have the power to force someone to reveal everything you might want to hear. It could still be very useful, in combination with more mundane interrogation techniques like intimidation or persuasion, plus some compelling role play.
Suggestion is single target. Zone of truth is area of effect. Zone of truth informs you of which rounds they have to tell the truth and which they don’t. Suggestion is mult purpose and as has been suggested the wording can be interpreted in a number of ways. Results from Zone of truth are clear .. though the choice of words from the creature can be misleading .. suggestion may not be clear at all.
So, I don’t have a problem with creative uses of suggestion .. the DM however needs to be even more creative in their responses and that can be an issue since not everyone can do “creative on demand” well.
Yeah, treating Suggestion like Wish, where enemies will attempt to contort the spirit of the request while complying with the letter of it, is a better approach than having the DM outright refuse to allow the player to use a spell that they've taken the time to prepare and cast.
"Tell us everything you know about your boss!" "I know where he is. I know how old he is. I know what race he is." etc. etc. for 8 hours without discussing details would be one approach. Rattling off inane details "I know that he wore a red shirt this morning. I know that the shirt is wool. I know that he has two arms. I know that he has 10 fingers. I know that he has 10 fingernails..." to run out the clock is another approach. Answering "Truthfully." to each question is another great suggestion. That kinda stuff is a great way for the DM to hold onto their cards, because not only is it entertaining, it also equips the players to turn the tables on the DM and use the same tactics when they get Suggested down the road... while just saying "you players can't use this spell, but I might use it on you in the future" is going to feel crappy.
A while ago we captured someone who seem to have a lot of info about our BBEG. We our warlock casted suggestion and asked him to "tell us everything you know about him". the DM talked for a while but then stopped abruptly saying the spell is too broken and it shouldn't be possible to have this extent. Though we argued a little bit but ended with the "DM call".
Now in your opinion, should the spell allow someone to spill everything out? i mean we did suggest he tell us everything and didn't find anything in the rules that deny it. I myself have a campaign and kind of understand his stand but i want to be fair both DMs and players.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
The DM could've just ruled "tell us everything you know about him" on its own isn't a reasonable request for the hostage since the BBEG might kill him to set an example and the party has no reason to keep him alive afterwards either. The hostage would know that spilling the beans immediately puts their life at risk.
Ultimately what's reasonable and what's not is up to the DM and highly dependent on circumstances.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
This is a situation where things like understanding presentation, story telling, and organizational status can really make the response to the spell unique to the situation.
Let's assume that the prisoner is in the higher echelon of power, the 2nd in command of the organization. "Tell us everything you know about the BBEG" is the suggestion, I'd play this of in a semi-literal sense, but I'd also do it from a point of perspective and what information would be trusted to this 2nd in command.
You'll get information about height, weight, handedness, odd habits, social and physical quirks, favorite food and other fluff information that someone in close proximity might pick up. You'll get information about their last known location, be it a tent out in the fields, a temple in another town, or a base near where they are. You'll get information spilling out about plans, goals, conversations, and other information that the party is looking for. The fun part though is it will be a steady stream of information, and will not necessarily be in any reasonable timeline or structure, just a stream of conscious thought.
Now, if the organization is cell based then you'll get only the information that this person is allowed to know, nothing more. If the organization is loose and open with information, then you'll get more. But the greatest tool is to give the information from the perspective of this prisoner's point of view. It's not going to be neutral, reading from the DM's BBEG notes, it's going to be skewed by the prisoner's ideology and perception.
Let's say that the guy is absolutely enamored by the BBEG, then he's going to make the BBEG out to be some sort of grand personality and he's bringing about a new age of glory. If they feel the BBEG is tyrannical and they don't like him...well the information will be skewed to show that.
Suggestion isn't an "I win" button in this sense, it's merely a way to get information from the point of view of the prisoner.
Conversely if it's just a grunt...well I know he's a Black Dragonborn, likes to drink whiskey and always has wenches visiting his tent. I don't see much of him unless he's telling us to go raid the local villages. The information will be very limited.
Hope my view on this is helpful.
Sorry, my friend corrected me we asked him and i quote: "Answer all of our questions truthfully" dunno if it makes any difference but thanks anyway.
I corrected my sentence in this reply, As far as we know these two has actually been friends.
To explain further this is what happened:
We entered a tower that represent a source of power which is linked to a gem and a host. in that tower we found a time prison where several people were in there locked for over thousand years. After we freed them we found out that the guy i am talking about had himself and other imprisoned and be a sacrifice for the BBEG. He wasn't co-operative so we casted suggestion and said "Answer all of our questions truthfully". We went on and you know the rest.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Answer all our questions truthfully. Where is he?
Truthfully
What is he planning?
Truthfully
Why do you keep saying truthfully?
Truthfully
I think we need to work on a better suggestion.
interesting reaction but how would it be worded in a proper manner? If you were trying to interrogate someone using suggestion.
Born under the watch of something from the furthest corners of the far realms.... It knows all.... it sees all... and it asks: "What is it that you want to see?"... and my answer is... ALL"
Suggestion is only a 2nd level spell. I would argue it will almost never achieve better results in an interrogation than Zone of Truth, also 2nd level but specialized for only interrogation-type situations. It just doesn't have the power to force someone to reveal everything you might want to hear. It could still be very useful, in combination with more mundane interrogation techniques like intimidation or persuasion, plus some compelling role play.
Arlong.
so, figure out ahead specific questions you'd like to know.
For starters. Do you have a healer in your group that cna heal back regrown fingers or ears or something? If you do, you can do a base deception (passing depends on dice roll) that you want to join BBEG's army. Then have one person, cut off body part that can be healed back by your healer, from another member of YOUR OWN party.
Now this hostage dude, is like "what the hell is wrong with these people". Then use suggestion to find the location/way to get in touch with BBEG to "join up" with him.
The guy, might find it reasonable, that you'd join up and want to with the guy, if you're willing to cut off your own body parts to prove your worth.
Blank
Suggestion is single target. Zone of truth is area of effect. Zone of truth informs you of which rounds they have to tell the truth and which they don’t. Suggestion is mult purpose and as has been suggested the wording can be interpreted in a number of ways. Results from Zone of truth are clear .. though the choice of words from the creature can be misleading .. suggestion may not be clear at all.
So, I don’t have a problem with creative uses of suggestion .. the DM however needs to be even more creative in their responses and that can be an issue since not everyone can do “creative on demand” well.
perfectly said.
Blank
Yeah, treating Suggestion like Wish, where enemies will attempt to contort the spirit of the request while complying with the letter of it, is a better approach than having the DM outright refuse to allow the player to use a spell that they've taken the time to prepare and cast.
"Tell us everything you know about your boss!" "I know where he is. I know how old he is. I know what race he is." etc. etc. for 8 hours without discussing details would be one approach. Rattling off inane details "I know that he wore a red shirt this morning. I know that the shirt is wool. I know that he has two arms. I know that he has 10 fingers. I know that he has 10 fingernails..." to run out the clock is another approach. Answering "Truthfully." to each question is another great suggestion. That kinda stuff is a great way for the DM to hold onto their cards, because not only is it entertaining, it also equips the players to turn the tables on the DM and use the same tactics when they get Suggested down the road... while just saying "you players can't use this spell, but I might use it on you in the future" is going to feel crappy.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.