Would you be able to maintain concentration on a spell during a short rest? Do you lose it when you go to sleep? Specifically I was thinking about the Hex spell for Warlocks. Duration at spell slot 5 is 24 hours, so if you take an hour long short rest during that time, would you be able to maintain concentration? Also, would you get that spell slot back, or would you continue to have the spell slot used up because you are still maintaining the spell? If you go to sleep, would you lose concentration? What if you're an elf who does a trance to "sleep"? Would you lose concentration during the long rest?
Theoretically, yes. But your DM might say otherwise, and if it was me, I would say it is okay, but I know other DMs who do not allow stuff like this. Good question though.
Yes you can maintain concentration during a short rest, because being at short rest is not among things that breaks concentration (taking damage or being incapacitated).
I think this is not valid when you go to sleep (long rest). Being asleep is kind of being unconscious (here the suggestion from JC), condition that includes being incapacitated. This might be valid for elves as well. Trance is meditation which is supposed to be a sort of concentration.
You should be able to continue concentration during a short rest. I suppose a dm could say having to concentrate on a spell prohibits the ability to actually rest, but I would probably allow it.
Sleep is different as it is impossible to concentrate while sleeping. I would so no during a long rest. Though I might allow it until you sleep.
Nothing specifically disallows concentrating during a short rest.
In fact is a fairly common trick for mid+ level warlocks to cast hex on any living creature they can find(bugs/rats) just before a short rest (so they have 7 hours of hex left afterwards)
I'd agree with everyone else: Yes over a short rest, no if you sleep. But I would also add that I DON'T think you should get the spell slot back. The spell is still active, thus you cannot refresh the slot.
At least that's probably how I'd rule it at the table.
I'd agree with everyone else: Yes over a short rest, no if you sleep. But I would also add that I DON'T think you should get the spell slot back. The spell is still active, thus you cannot refresh the slot.
At least that's probably how I'd rule it at the table.
That ruling makes a bunch of utility spells useless. If a Cleric uses Continual Flame, they'd lose a level 2 spell slot forever. They're already paying 50gp for a relatively minor benefit.
It gets even worse with level 6+ slots, because you only get one of each until 19-20. No one would ever use Programmed Illusion!
I'd agree with everyone else: Yes over a short rest, no if you sleep. But I would also add that I DON'T think you should get the spell slot back. The spell is still active, thus you cannot refresh the slot.
At least that's probably how I'd rule it at the table.
That ruling makes a bunch of utility spells useless. If a Cleric uses Continual Flame, they'd lose a level 2 spell slot forever. They're already paying 50gp for a relatively minor benefit.
It gets even worse with level 6+ slots, because you only get one of each until 19-20. No one would ever use Programmed Illusion!
I would think that this mainly concerns concentration spells. If you are still concentrating on an active spell, do you get the spell slot back? If it's a cast and it's done, thing, then there's no reason you shouldn't get the slot back. A concentration spell seems to require a bit of magical upkeep in the form of concentration, so would you get the slot that you're using to maintain concentration back while still concentrating on it?
I'd agree with everyone else: Yes over a short rest, no if you sleep. But I would also add that I DON'T think you should get the spell slot back. The spell is still active, thus you cannot refresh the slot.
At least that's probably how I'd rule it at the table.
That ruling makes a bunch of utility spells useless. If a Cleric uses Continual Flame, they'd lose a level 2 spell slot forever. They're already paying 50gp for a relatively minor benefit.
It gets even worse with level 6+ slots, because you only get one of each until 19-20. No one would ever use Programmed Illusion!
Continual Flame and Programmed Illusion are not concentration spells, thus they are not part of the discussion. Templars Bane position makes sense as the spell is still being concentrated on during the short rest, thus the spell is still active (actively being cast?) and one could argue that the spell slot does not become free until the spell completes which for concentration spells is not until the spell is not being concentrated on.
It basically would keep a warlock from casting Hex and then resting and be able to refresh the spell slot they just used to gain another spell while having Hex active. But this only applies to concentration spells. Other spells are clearly not still occupying their spell slot as they have been expended in the casting.
Continual Flame and Programmed Illusion are not concentration spells, thus they are not part of the discussion. Templars Bane position makes sense as the spell is still being concentrated on during the short rest, thus the spell is still active (actively being cast?) and one could argue that the spell slot does not become free until the spell completes which for concentration spells is not until the spell is not being concentrated on.
It basically would keep a warlock from casting Hex and then resting and be able to refresh the spell slot they just used to gain another spell while having Hex active. But this only applies to concentration spells. Other spells are clearly not still occupying their spell slot as they have been expended in the casting.
You say "one could argue that the spell slot does not become free" but there's nothing in the rules that suggest or imply this. And "other spells are clearly not still occupying their spell slot" is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. There's no reason why an ongoing concentration spell should tie up a slot but an ongoing non-concentration spell shouldn't.
If the intention was that concentration ties up a spell slot, the rules would say so. Try searching for "from:jeremyecrawford would say so" on twitter and see how many times he's had to say something like that. (Here's a fun one: an elf can maintain concentration during trance.)
Look at it this way: the game was playtested before any of the core rulebooks were released, and every new book since has been playtested as well (1, 2). On top of that, Crawford and Mearls play the game at home and at conventions. The core rule books were still getting erratas as recently as May 2016. During that time, the Starter Set, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Sword Coast of Adventurer's Guide and Curse of Strahd were released; Storm King's Thunder was right around the corner.
What are the odds that Jeremy Crawford forgot to write down a rule in Pact Magic AND the subject never came up during 2 years of pre-release playtests, or 2 additional years' worth of playtests for 7 adventures and SCAG's Undying patron?
Warlock's small number of spell slots and spells known are balanced around the assumption that they'll be able to recover those slots. Limiting a Warlock's ability to recover slots punishes your players for using their abilities in an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Concentration is mostly a mechanic to keep spellcasters from doing too much and keep combat from slowing down. That's obvious from the fact that it didn't exist in previous editions, and if you think about it it doesn't make a lot of sense. You can read a book, pick a lock, draw a map, navigate, study your spellbook (Arcane Recovery), meditate for ki points, or even go into trance while concentrating on a spell. Those are things which should take up all of your attention. You're not really "concentrating" on the spell much at all. It's like the bonus action rule: it's an arbitrary rule to keep things balanced. There's no real reason why you casting a bonus action spell prevents you from casting non-cantrip spells, but you can cast two non-cantrips using Action Surge.
You say "one could argue that the spell slot does not become free" but there's nothing in the rules that suggest or imply this. And "other spells are clearly not still occupying their spell slot" is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. There's no reason why an ongoing concentration spell should tie up a slot but an ongoing non-concentration spell shouldn't.
The idea being that a spell removes itself from the spell slot upon finalizing. non-concentration spells would therefore finalize upon being cast, while concentration spells still require the magical essence from you to remain active (hence your need to concentrate on the spell). I don't think it is therefore arbitrary, but a fine difference between the two. You are certainly right that there is nothing in the rules which would indicate this. Though I'm not sure there is anything in the rules that would indicate the opposite either. Nor am I sure in actual play it is really going to matter all that much.
If the intention was that concentration ties up a spell slot, the rules would say so. Try searching for "from:jeremyecrawford would say so" on twitter and see how many times he's had to say something like that. (Here's a fun one: an elf can maintain concentration during trance.)
He may be right that no rule says that an elf can't. Even if a rule doesn't say a human can't, I would very much say that you can't concentrate while asleep. Not letting an elf concentrate during trance would then probably be more of a balancing act to not give elves a huge advantage over everyone else of being able to keep their spells active during a long rest while no one else can.
Look at it this way: the game was playtested before any of the core rulebooks were released, and every new book since has been playtested as well (1, 2). On top of that, Crawford and Mearls play the game at home and at conventions. The core rule books were still getting erratas as recently as May 2016. During that time, the Starter Set, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Rise of Tiamat, Princes of the Apocalypse, Out of the Abyss, Sword Coast of Adventurer's Guide and Curse of Strahd were released; Storm King's Thunder was right around the corner.
What are the odds that Jeremy Crawford forgot to write down a rule in Pact Magic AND the subject never came up during 2 years of pre-release playtests, or 2 additional years' worth of playtests for 7 adventures and SCAG's Undying patron?
Warlock's small number of spell slots and spells known are balanced around the assumption that they'll be able to recover those slots. Limiting a Warlock's ability to recover slots punishes your players for using their abilities in an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Because you can only concentrate on one spell at a time AND you have to maintain concentration during combat, you are at best going to be keeping the Warlock from recovering one spell slot whose spell effects they are still getting to use. So its not really punishing them. Also since most DMs I know opt for increasing a monsters damage rather than the monsters HP to make it more challenging, I'm really not sure how often in practice the Warlock is going to manage to keep his Hex active all day to begin with to have to worry about whether or not the slot is being taken up.
Concentration is mostly a mechanic to keep spellcasters from doing too much and keep combat from slowing down. That's obvious from the fact that it didn't exist in previous editions, and if you think about it it doesn't make a lot of sense. You can read a book, pick a lock, draw a map, navigate, study your spellbook (Arcane Recovery), meditate for ki points, or even go into trance while concentrating on a spell. Those are things which should take up all of your attention. You're not really "concentrating" on the spell much at all. It's like the bonus action rule: it's an arbitrary rule to keep things balanced. There's no real reason why you casting a bonus action spell prevents you from casting non-cantrip spells, but you can cast two non-cantrips using Action Surge.
I feel like concentration is a horrible rule and shouldn't even exist. Fighters, with four attacks, maneuvers, reactions, action surges, etc. can slow down combat way more than any concentration spell. (I'm okay with having concentration spells per se, thus limiting the number you can cast at one time, but the save is a bit too much.)
To be fair the rules do state that the spell slot is expanded when casting the spell, and warlocks regain all expended spell slots when they take a short rest.
The idea being that a spell removes itself from the spell slot upon finalizing. non-concentration spells would therefore finalize upon being cast, while concentration spells still require the magical essence from you to remain active (hence your need to concentrate on the spell). I don't think it is therefore arbitrary, but a fine difference between the two. You are certainly right that there is nothing in the rules which would indicate this. Though I'm not sure there is anything in the rules that would indicate the opposite either. Nor am I sure in actual play it is really going to matter all that much.
The reason I say it's arbitrary is that I can just as easily claim that as long as the spell is active (regardless of concentration) your spell slots is tied up, since the spell is still "doing work". That makes sense too. Why is one house rule more correct than the other?
He may be right that no rule says that an elf can't. Even if a rule doesn't say a human can't, I would very much say that you can't concentrate while asleep. Not letting an elf concentrate during trance would then probably be more of a balancing act to not give elves a huge advantage over everyone else of being able to keep their spells active during a long rest while no one else can.
There is a rule that says a human can't concentrate while sleeping - you can't concentrate while unconscious. Crawford's tweet was just a roundabout way of saying trance doesn't make you unconscious.
Because you can only concentrate on one spell at a time AND you have to maintain concentration during combat, you are at best going to be keeping the Warlock from recovering one spell slot whose spell effects they are still getting to use. So its not really punishing them. Also since most DMs I know opt for increasing a monsters damage rather than the monsters HP to make it more challenging, I'm really not sure how often in practice the Warlock is going to manage to keep his Hex active all day to begin with to have to worry about whether or not the slot is being taken up.
You're taking one of Warlock's signature abilities and gutting it. You're denying them a large chunk of their resources unless they prematurely end Hex and negating one of the benefits they get from leveling up. The Warlock is certainly going to feel punished. That's really hard to justify when you're not even sure there's a problem.
I feel like concentration is a horrible rule and shouldn't even exist. Fighters, with four attacks, maneuvers, reactions, action surges, etc. can slow down combat way more than any concentration spell. (I'm okay with having concentration spells per se, thus limiting the number you can cast at one time, but the save is a bit too much.)
Without the save, spellcasters are too powerful. Back in 3rd edition the only way to stop a spellcaster was to have another spellcaster of level 5+ with Dispel Magic available, or to have a stupidly-optimized melee build that could win initiative and kill the caster outright. It really sucked.
I really like the effects that concentration saves have had on the game. Spellcasters can't get by with just their spellcasting stat, and the party is encouraged to work together to keep the caster safe. For a melee character, knowing that you're the reason the caster's precious spell slots aren't wasted is much more gratifying than simply stopping the casters from losing HP. Until people start dropping unconscious, HP pools are mostly interchangeable.
For whatever reason, the games I've played in, the DM has opted for giving monster more damage rather than more hp. (As I recall that is what Matt from Critical Role does as well, but at least he forgets the concentration checks half the time or ends up having them make like five at once). If your DM is that type of DM then you can almost never make a concentration check because the DC is like 20-30 because of the DMs attempt to speed up combat. Maybe this isn't as wide spread as my experience would allow me to believe and instead most DMs opt for more hp rather than more damage.
Not to mention if you get hit four or five times in a round and half the party has up concentration spells, that is really going to slow down combat as you have to constantly check to see if a spell is working or not, and then convey to everyone in the party that the spell isn't working any more and which abilities/hit points/etc. they have to remove now. Concentration might not be so bad with certain attack spells (at least those get one shot at least).
Its most the buffs that I think there is a problem. You cast the spell before combat, everyone adjusts their pcs to account for the buff(s), spellcasters get hit before anyone acts, spell lost and the buff(s) have to be removed all before anyone benefited from them and took any actions. Eventually it could make a PC shy away from buffs if they aren't going to stay active for a round.
For whatever reason, the games I've played in, the DM has opted for giving monster more damage rather than more hp. (As I recall that is what Matt from Critical Role does as well, but at least he forgets the concentration checks half the time or ends up having them make like five at once). If your DM is that type of DM then you can almost never make a concentration check because the DC is like 20-30 because of the DMs attempt to speed up combat. Maybe this isn't as wide spread as my experience would allow me to believe and instead most DMs opt for more hp rather than more damage.
My condolences then. I don't like messing with stat blocks on the fly for precisely that reason. There's a certain amount of damage a monster should be doing at a given CR and deviating too much from that leads to problems like this. E.g. a CR 10 monster should do around 68 damage per round. That's almost always split up across 2-3 hits, so you'd be looking at DC 17 concentration saves at worst. Tough, but not impossible, especially with War Caster. If the monster does all its damage in one action, that's a good opportunity to cast Shield, or it's probably an effect that allows a save for half damage.
In a game like that I can see how having your spells go up and down every turn would be obnoxious.
I think it's smarter to just add a couple of lower-CR monsters if you need more damage. That helps prevent other problems too, like players managing to lock 1 strong monster down with a combination of shoves, grapples, and spells like Web or Grease. Or conversely, players getting out of grapples or other conditions. It's really hard to keep things interesting when players have 4-5 actions a round and the enemy side only gets 1.
Its a problem when you know a lot of people that play D&D! Games I've ended up in have a tendency to have like 8 or more players. And when I first started D&D it was long before pre-painted plastic miniatures so all of our games didn't use miniatures. Hence, it being easier to alter a monster's stat blocks than adding monsters and having 8 players to keep track of and like 10+ monsters.
If you watch critical role, the PCs are way over powered. I haven't really paid much attention to the damage they take each round, mostly because Matt almost always forgets about Concentration. But it seems like they usually end up losing it roughly the first time he remembers it. This is somewhat hard to pin down though because this means they are usually having to roll like four times at once, and its hard to remember how many attacks they had suffered in one round. When you are getting hit two or three times in a round, is when concentration gets to be a lot harder.
I like the idea of only being able to have one concentration spell active at once, but the rolling when taking damage, is I think more time consuming than it is worth. Unless you are having epic battles that last more than three or four rounds, I'm not sure how big of a difference it makes for a lot of them.
Also note that if any monster deals more than 52 damage at once, it means the concentration spell has no way to succeed. Somewhere between 30 and 40 damage meaning you are probably losing concentration, and anything less than that is when you have the real chance of keeping a spell going. So great low level games, but worse high level games when monsters start doing more than you can reasonably roll.
Its a problem when you know a lot of people that play D&D! Games I've ended up in have a tendency to have like 8 or more players. And when I first started D&D it was long before pre-painted plastic miniatures so all of our games didn't use miniatures. Hence, it being easier to alter a monster's stat blocks than adding monsters and having 8 players to keep track of and like 10+ monsters.
Ah, that explains a lot. Yeah, a lot of the game's core assumptions start to break down with groups of that size. And you're right, playing without a tactical map is challenging.
I like the idea of only being able to have one concentration spell active at once, but the rolling when taking damage, is I think more time consuming than it is worth. Unless you are having epic battles that last more than three or four rounds, I'm not sure how big of a difference it makes for a lot of them.
Why do the casters get hit so often though? Do you frequently fight groups of enemies larger than the party? Do the casters have abysmally low AC, or is the DM increasing the attack bonus of the monsters too?
Also note that if any monster deals more than 52 damage at once, it means the concentration spell has no way to succeed. Somewhere between 30 and 40 damage meaning you are probably losing concentration, and anything less than that is when you have the real chance of keeping a spell going. So great low level games, but worse high level games when monsters start doing more than you can reasonably roll.
Taking that much damage in a single attack isn't very common with standard monsters though. Even a CR 15 Adult Green Dragon only deals 17 damage with its strongest weapon attack. Its poison breath does 56, but it only has a 1/3 chance of recharging, and if you make the save the damage is halved. Purple Worms can deal 19 piercing + 42 poison, but it only has 5 foot reach with that and a save halves the poison damage. Sure, at higher levels making the saves gets harder, but you also have more options to improve saving throws or avoid getting hit. Besides self-buffs like Blink or Fly, there's trapping spells like Web or Evard's Black Tentacles, or they can Enlarge the group grappler so it can grapple large creatures.
Would you be able to maintain concentration on a spell during a short rest? Do you lose it when you go to sleep? Specifically I was thinking about the Hex spell for Warlocks. Duration at spell slot 5 is 24 hours, so if you take an hour long short rest during that time, would you be able to maintain concentration? Also, would you get that spell slot back, or would you continue to have the spell slot used up because you are still maintaining the spell? If you go to sleep, would you lose concentration? What if you're an elf who does a trance to "sleep"? Would you lose concentration during the long rest?
Theoretically, yes. But your DM might say otherwise, and if it was me, I would say it is okay, but I know other DMs who do not allow stuff like this. Good question though.
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Yes you can maintain concentration during a short rest, because being at short rest is not among things that breaks concentration (taking damage or being incapacitated).
I think this is not valid when you go to sleep (long rest). Being asleep is kind of being unconscious (here the suggestion from JC), condition that includes being incapacitated.
This might be valid for elves as well. Trance is meditation which is supposed to be a sort of concentration.Elves can remain concentrated: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/840264666001604609
You should be able to continue concentration during a short rest. I suppose a dm could say having to concentrate on a spell prohibits the ability to actually rest, but I would probably allow it.
Sleep is different as it is impossible to concentrate while sleeping. I would so no during a long rest. Though I might allow it until you sleep.
Nothing specifically disallows concentrating during a short rest.
In fact is a fairly common trick for mid+ level warlocks to cast hex on any living creature they can find(bugs/rats) just before a short rest (so they have 7 hours of hex left afterwards)
I'd agree with everyone else: Yes over a short rest, no if you sleep. But I would also add that I DON'T think you should get the spell slot back. The spell is still active, thus you cannot refresh the slot.
At least that's probably how I'd rule it at the table.
I would say you regain all the spell slots, even if you are concentrating. After all, you have already spent that slot.
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Oh. Cool. I hadn't really read up much on Warlocks. After seeing some of this discussion, I'd probably change my mind on that ruling.
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For whatever reason, the games I've played in, the DM has opted for giving monster more damage rather than more hp. (As I recall that is what Matt from Critical Role does as well, but at least he forgets the concentration checks half the time or ends up having them make like five at once). If your DM is that type of DM then you can almost never make a concentration check because the DC is like 20-30 because of the DMs attempt to speed up combat. Maybe this isn't as wide spread as my experience would allow me to believe and instead most DMs opt for more hp rather than more damage.
Not to mention if you get hit four or five times in a round and half the party has up concentration spells, that is really going to slow down combat as you have to constantly check to see if a spell is working or not, and then convey to everyone in the party that the spell isn't working any more and which abilities/hit points/etc. they have to remove now. Concentration might not be so bad with certain attack spells (at least those get one shot at least).
Its most the buffs that I think there is a problem. You cast the spell before combat, everyone adjusts their pcs to account for the buff(s), spellcasters get hit before anyone acts, spell lost and the buff(s) have to be removed all before anyone benefited from them and took any actions. Eventually it could make a PC shy away from buffs if they aren't going to stay active for a round.
My condolences then. I don't like messing with stat blocks on the fly for precisely that reason. There's a certain amount of damage a monster should be doing at a given CR and deviating too much from that leads to problems like this. E.g. a CR 10 monster should do around 68 damage per round. That's almost always split up across 2-3 hits, so you'd be looking at DC 17 concentration saves at worst. Tough, but not impossible, especially with War Caster. If the monster does all its damage in one action, that's a good opportunity to cast Shield, or it's probably an effect that allows a save for half damage.
In a game like that I can see how having your spells go up and down every turn would be obnoxious.
I think it's smarter to just add a couple of lower-CR monsters if you need more damage. That helps prevent other problems too, like players managing to lock 1 strong monster down with a combination of shoves, grapples, and spells like Web or Grease. Or conversely, players getting out of grapples or other conditions. It's really hard to keep things interesting when players have 4-5 actions a round and the enemy side only gets 1.
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Its a problem when you know a lot of people that play D&D! Games I've ended up in have a tendency to have like 8 or more players. And when I first started D&D it was long before pre-painted plastic miniatures so all of our games didn't use miniatures. Hence, it being easier to alter a monster's stat blocks than adding monsters and having 8 players to keep track of and like 10+ monsters.
If you watch critical role, the PCs are way over powered. I haven't really paid much attention to the damage they take each round, mostly because Matt almost always forgets about Concentration. But it seems like they usually end up losing it roughly the first time he remembers it. This is somewhat hard to pin down though because this means they are usually having to roll like four times at once, and its hard to remember how many attacks they had suffered in one round. When you are getting hit two or three times in a round, is when concentration gets to be a lot harder.
I like the idea of only being able to have one concentration spell active at once, but the rolling when taking damage, is I think more time consuming than it is worth. Unless you are having epic battles that last more than three or four rounds, I'm not sure how big of a difference it makes for a lot of them.
Also note that if any monster deals more than 52 damage at once, it means the concentration spell has no way to succeed. Somewhere between 30 and 40 damage meaning you are probably losing concentration, and anything less than that is when you have the real chance of keeping a spell going. So great low level games, but worse high level games when monsters start doing more than you can reasonably roll.
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