So, how does the Jump spell interact with the Satyr's Mirthful Leaps racial ability...?
For reference: Satyrs can add 1d8 feet to the height or distance they jump; the Jump spell triples the distance you can jump.
So, my question is: does that tripling also affect the Satyr's extra jumping distance? IOW, if a Satyr with a 10 Strength makes a Standing Long Jump, he can jump 1d8+5 feet. If he casts Jump on himself, how far can he go?
1d8+15
3d8+15
3 x (1d8+5)
Something else?
:)
(EDIT: math correction, thanks to Kotath for catching my error.)
One presumes that, since nowhere else in 5e they use parentheses for their calculations that they would not use them here either. If it says “your jump distance is increased by 1d8” then I would read (J+1d8) I would add the roll to the jump and then triple it for the spell (J+1d8)*3=N
But it doesn’t, it says:
Mirthful Leaps
Whenever you make a long or high jump, you can roll a d8 and add the number rolled to the number of feet you cover, even when making a standing jump. This extra distance costs movement as normal.
One presumes that, since nowhere else in 5e they use parentheses for their calculations that they would not use them here either. If it says “your jump distance is increased by 1d8” then I would read (J+1d8) I would add the roll to the jump and then triple it for the spell (J+1d8)*3=N
But it doesn’t, it says:
Mirthful Leaps
Whenever you make a long or high jump, you can roll a d8 and add the number rolled to the number of feet you cover, even when making a standing jump. This extra distance costs movement as normal.
So I read J*3+[1d8]=N
The creature's jump distance is tripled. A satyr's jump distance is (normal jump distance)+ 1d8. Therefore with the jump spell, their jump distance is ((normal jump distance )+ 1d8) * 3, or for a str 10 satyr doing a standing long jump, (5+1d8) * 3.
The alternative interpretation you are using results in the mirthful leap bonus not being part of their jump distance, which makes no sense... It is part of their jump. No one is throwing them...
But it’s not “part of the jump distance” it is added to the jump distance. Addition happens after multiplication. There are no parentheses, there is no suggested order of operation, so I just fell back on my 3rd grade (4th grade?) arithmetic.
Let's use Squat Nimbleness for an example instead. It adds 5 ft to your walk speed so, whenever you walk, add 5 ft. You are a Dwarf and you normally walk 25 ft. You normally dash (walk 25 ft*2) for 50 ft. You walk 25 ft + 5 ft with Squat Nimbleness for 30 ft. Do you dash 55 ft with Squat Nimbleness? Normal walk (25 ft*2)+5 ft.
What matters, Sosta, is the order in which each effect is applied.
Do you get the +1d8 and then multiply? Or do you multiply first, and then get the +1d8? As written, it could literally go either way.
It's an edge case, and a relatively minor one, yes ... but the difference is on average going to be some nine feet of distance, which could be a life-and-death difference in the right situation.
To support the "roll the dice, too" side of things, a parallel just occurred to me:
Critical Hits, and Sneak Attack.
Sneak Attack
[..] Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
Critical Hit
[...] Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. [...]
If you score a critical hit, the Sneak Attack dice are added to the total before you roll the damage dice "twice".
Why would Jump work any different from this, when cast by a Satyr (or theoretically, anyone who had extra jump distance.
Let's use Squat Nimbleness for an example instead. It adds 5 ft to your walk speed so, whenever you walk, add 5 ft. You are a Dwarf and you normally walk 25 ft. You normally dash (walk 25 ft*2) for 50 ft. You walk 25 ft + 5 ft with Squat Nimbleness for 30 ft. Do you dash 55 ft with Squat Nimbleness? Normal walk (25 ft*2)+5 ft.
No, because Squat nimbleness expressly increases your base Walking speed.
You are uncommonly nimble for your race. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Let's use Squat Nimbleness for an example instead. It adds 5 ft to your walk speed so, whenever you walk, add 5 ft. You are a Dwarf and you normally walk 25 ft. You normally dash (walk 25 ft*2) for 50 ft. You walk 25 ft + 5 ft with Squat Nimbleness for 30 ft. Do you dash 55 ft with Squat Nimbleness? Normal walk (25 ft*2)+5 ft.
No, because Squat nimbleness expressly increases your base Walking speed.
You are uncommonly nimble for your race. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You have advantage on any Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check you make to escape from being grappled.
It doesn’t “add 5 to your total distance moved,” it flat out increases that base movement, ergo: 30*2
Thank you, you just proved my point by saying EXACTLY what I knew you would. All Jumping movement is described as either standing OR running long OR high jumping. Mirthful Leaps adds 1d8 whenever you do that, it flat out increases your base Jumping movement.
But Jump multiplies your base jump, Mirthful Leap adds to the total number of feet jumped, not your base jump distance.
No, it says "The creature's jump distance." It does not say "Base jump distance." Normally those two numbers would be the same, but for satyrs, they are not the same.
They are the same, because Mirthful Leap doesn’t affect your “jump distance” at all, it “add[s] the number rolled to the number of feet you cover.” “Feet you cover” is specifically not using the phrase “jump distance.”
Mirthful Leaps
Whenever you make a long or high jump, you can roll a d8 and add the number rolled to the number of feet you cover, even when making a standing jump. This extra distance costs movement as normal.
Let's use Squat Nimbleness for an example instead. It adds 5 ft to your walk speed so, whenever you walk, add 5 ft. You are a Dwarf and you normally walk 25 ft. You normally dash (walk 25 ft*2) for 50 ft. You walk 25 ft + 5 ft with Squat Nimbleness for 30 ft. Do you dash 55 ft with Squat Nimbleness? Normal walk (25 ft*2)+5 ft.
No, because Squat nimbleness expressly increases your base Walking speed.
You are uncommonly nimble for your race. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You have advantage on any Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check you make to escape from being grappled.
It doesn’t “add 5 to your total distance moved,” it flat out increases that base movement, ergo: 30*2
Thank you, you just proved my point by saying EXACTLY what I knew you would. All Jumping movement is described as either standing OR running long OR high jumping. Mirthful Leaps adds 1d8 whenever you do that, it flat out increases your base Jumping movement.
Mirthful Leap doesn’t use the same wording. It doesn’t “increase your jump distance by 1d8,” it instead “add[s] the number rolled to the number of feet you cover.” That’s specifically different wording.
You don’t even get a choice about it. Say you only want three more feet, and you roll an 8, you must add 8 to the number of feet you cover if you chose to roll that die, even if that overshoots you’re target. Would you actually want that tripled?!?
You say “not good faith” I say “jump distance” is base jump distance, and “number of feet you cover” is total jump distance. Otherwise, why wouldn’t they have just written “jump distance” like every other time?
And it’s not a matter of base racial feature vs added as a feat. It’s a matter of wording.
Nothing in the rules that describe Jumping, says that you can jump any less than your max jump so, the point about Mirthful Leap not being lessened is equally silly. I think I will give credit to most people to understand that they can use their jump up to the point that it accomplishes what they seek. If I have a 10 Str, can I standing long jump 6 ft? No, I had better use a running long jump that allows me UP TO 10 ft in jump distance.
My point is, I believe that adding a random 1d8 to the total jump distance that you have to take the full number rolled if you choose to do it is exactly what they were trying to do with it. I believe it was an attempt to capture the randomness and capriciousness of the race, and to act as a sort of balance factor for other things like not being humanoid.
This isn’t quite like anything else, it reminds me more of the randomness of the older editions. And it feels intentional to me.
So, how does the Jump spell interact with the Satyr's Mirthful Leaps racial ability...?
For reference: Satyrs can add 1d8 feet to the height or distance they jump; the Jump spell triples the distance you can jump.
So, my question is: does that tripling also affect the Satyr's extra jumping distance? IOW, if a Satyr with a 10 Strength makes a Standing Long Jump, he can jump 1d8+5 feet. If he casts Jump on himself, how far can he go?
:)
(EDIT: math correction, thanks to Kotath for catching my error.)
I think options #2 and 3 makes the most sense. I don't think that conclusion is much of a leap. ; P
Yeah, I didn't check the OPs numbers, just the calculation format.
For the record, I also think it should be either (2) or (3). I guess I'm mostly seeking validation for my gut instinct. :)
Also .... math corrected. :)
If we call jump distance J, the Satyr's ability gives + 1d8 to J, while the Jump spell gives you 3J so I feel the correct outcome is 3J + 1d8
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Yeah, doesn’t all multiplication/division happen before addition/subtraction.
https://www.mathsisfun.com/operation-order-pemdas.html
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That rather depends how the formula is set up. Like what you just said, "PEMDAS":
... so, where J equals the basic jump distance from the PHB, which of these is the correct formula:
... and if it's the latter rather than the former, do you then use the distributive property before rolling dice, or not?
:)
One presumes that, since nowhere else in 5e they use parentheses for their calculations that they would not use them here either. If it says “your jump distance is increased by 1d8” then I would read (J+1d8) I would add the roll to the jump and then triple it for the spell (J+1d8)*3=N
But it doesn’t, it says:
So I read J*3+[1d8]=N
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But it’s not “part of the jump distance” it is added to the jump distance. Addition happens after multiplication. There are no parentheses, there is no suggested order of operation, so I just fell back on my 3rd grade (4th grade?) arithmetic.
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Imagine it like this:
Apple Buyer. Whenever you purchase apples you may roll 1d8 and add the total to the number of apples you can take home.
Appletastic. Whenever you purchase apples, your total number of purchased apples is multiplied by 3.
So if you purchase 5 apples, that number gets tripled to 15 apples, and then you actually get to take home 15+1d8 apples.
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Let's use Squat Nimbleness for an example instead. It adds 5 ft to your walk speed so, whenever you walk, add 5 ft. You are a Dwarf and you normally walk 25 ft. You normally dash (walk 25 ft*2) for 50 ft. You walk 25 ft + 5 ft with Squat Nimbleness for 30 ft. Do you dash 55 ft with Squat Nimbleness? Normal walk (25 ft*2)+5 ft.
What matters, Sosta, is the order in which each effect is applied.
Do you get the +1d8 and then multiply? Or do you multiply first, and then get the +1d8? As written, it could literally go either way.
It's an edge case, and a relatively minor one, yes ... but the difference is on average going to be some nine feet of distance, which could be a life-and-death difference in the right situation.
To support the "roll the dice, too" side of things, a parallel just occurred to me:
Critical Hits, and Sneak Attack.
If you score a critical hit, the Sneak Attack dice are added to the total before you roll the damage dice "twice".
Why would Jump work any different from this, when cast by a Satyr (or theoretically, anyone who had extra jump distance.
No, because Squat nimbleness expressly increases your base Walking speed.
It doesn’t “add 5 to your total distance moved,” it flat out increases that base movement, ergo: 30*2
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But Jump multiplies your base jump, Mirthful Leap adds to the total number of feet jumped, not your base jump distance.
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Thank you, you just proved my point by saying EXACTLY what I knew you would. All Jumping movement is described as either standing OR running long OR high jumping. Mirthful Leaps adds 1d8 whenever you do that, it flat out increases your base Jumping movement.
They are the same, because Mirthful Leap doesn’t affect your “jump distance” at all, it “add[s] the number rolled to the number of feet you cover.” “Feet you cover” is specifically not using the phrase “jump distance.”
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Mirthful Leap doesn’t use the same wording. It doesn’t “increase your jump distance by 1d8,” it instead “add[s] the number rolled to the number of feet you cover.” That’s specifically different wording.
You don’t even get a choice about it. Say you only want three more feet, and you roll an 8, you must add 8 to the number of feet you cover if you chose to roll that die, even if that overshoots you’re target. Would you actually want that tripled?!?
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You say “not good faith” I say “jump distance” is base jump distance, and “number of feet you cover” is total jump distance. Otherwise, why wouldn’t they have just written “jump distance” like every other time?
And it’s not a matter of base racial feature vs added as a feat. It’s a matter of wording.
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Nothing in the rules that describe Jumping, says that you can jump any less than your max jump so, the point about Mirthful Leap not being lessened is equally silly. I think I will give credit to most people to understand that they can use their jump up to the point that it accomplishes what they seek. If I have a 10 Str, can I standing long jump 6 ft? No, I had better use a running long jump that allows me UP TO 10 ft in jump distance.
My point is, I believe that adding a random 1d8 to the total jump distance that you have to take the full number rolled if you choose to do it is exactly what they were trying to do with it. I believe it was an attempt to capture the randomness and capriciousness of the race, and to act as a sort of balance factor for other things like not being humanoid.
This isn’t quite like anything else, it reminds me more of the randomness of the older editions. And it feels intentional to me.
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