The observant feat gives +5 to both passive perception and passive investigation.
The level 9 inquisitive rogue ability gives advantage on both perception and investigation checks if moving at 1/2 speed. Circumstances that give advantage on checks are treated as a +5 modifier to passive skill checks.
So a level 9 observant inquisitive rogue with expertise in perception and investigation with a 14 in each stat (+2 mod) would have passive perception and investigation skills of
10 +5 +5 + 10 = 30
Correct? That rogue won't be missing much of anything I would think. He can also specifically do perception and investigation checks as a bonus action. With 10 bonus actions every minute, it seems to me that given even one minute of time for this character to figure something out, the DM should be using his passive investigation and perception scores very frequently. (Can an investigation check by a normal character be accomplished by taking a regular action? ... if that is the case then the character could actually get 20 perception/investigation checks in one minute).
DMG p237
"MULTIPLE ABILITY CHECKS
Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task."
In fact, the passive investigation score really only represents the AVERAGE result for this character. Given sufficient time, this character could potentially succeed on DC40 perception and investigation checks. However, with only a minute to look around the character should succeed on any DC30 perception or investigation check.
... all of this by choosing one archetype, one feat and expertise in skills that the rogue might well have chosen anyway.
It does sound a little like Sherlock Holmes (from "Sherlock", ideally) walking into a room and glancing around.
Fitting, I would think. I don't see anything absurd about it, either, other than the fact that it's very difficult to successfully hide against that character in combat. You say an archetype, a feat and expertise, as if they're something to sneeze at, but it's practically most of your meaningful choices geared towards perception/investigation.
Actively using Perception or Investigation isn't just an action or bonus action.
The Eye for Detail ability is referring specifically to a check for hidden creature/object or find a clue.
There are numerous situations where using either of these skills may take longer, but could (should?) be resolved with a single roll.
It's very much up to the DM, based upon the scenario.
As an example, an inn has been robbed and the player character is going to look through all 12 of the rooms in the inn. The DM may well just ask for a single investigation check. There's no way that the character could check every room in a single action or bonus action, it just isn't going to happen. The DM may say, "it takes you about an hour to do a thorough search," and the player rolls a poor roll and the character finds nothing. If the player is convinced that there should be something there to find, the DM may allow them to roll again, likely spending another hour searching the inn.
Of course, the Eye for Detail ability should make this process a LOT quicker for an Inquisitive. They would spend a few seconds in each room, rather than a few minutes.
Two differing sources of advantage do not add together - you either have advantage (a single +5 to passive checks) or you do not have advantage, there is no "double advantage" (a pair of +5s to passive checks). (Brainfart corrected.)
That said, yes a character can get a high enough passive score on those skills to basically never fail at them - this is by design. Investing character resources that could be used elsewhere on a particular thing makes the character actually good at it, rather than this edition of the game doing as some of the older editions have done and requiring maximum possible investment in a particular aspect of the character just to get roughly coin-toss odds of success at it.
The Observant feat doesn't give advantage, it gives a direct +5 bonus to the relevant passive scores. I see no reason it doesn't stack with the handling of Advantage in those scores (which translates to a +5 bonus).
The Observant feat doesn't give advantage, it gives a direct +5 bonus to the relevant passive scores. I see no reason it doesn't stack with the handling of Advantage in those scores (which translates to a +5 bonus).
That's right, my bad. I forgot that the feat doesn't give advantage, and that granting advantage to active checks was suggested by someone to make it not irrelevant that the character is observant should the DM call for them to actually roll instead of use the passive score.
Great idea but your forgetting one critical detail.
If you using your passive perception your reliable talent doesn't apply. Your not making a d20 roll errgo you are not entitled to your guaranteed +10. You would instead have a passive perception of: +5 (oberservant) +5 (stat) +10 (expertise) = 20.
You can either have your reliable talent (+10) or observant(+5) but you can never have both simultaneously.
You would instead have a passive perception of: +5 (oberservant) +5 (stat) +10 (expertise) = 20.
That is not correct.
Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.
For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14. The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules.
An Inquisitive Rogue with the Observant feat, using the 9th level Steady Eye feature, calculates their Passive Perception/Investigation as: 10(base) + 5 (Observant) + X (Ability Score Modifier) + Y (Proficiency Bonus) + Y (Expertise Bonus) + 5 (Advantage, Steady Eye).
At 9th level, proficiency bonus is +4, and OP stated the ability score modifier is +2. They would have a Passive Perception/Investigation of: 10 + 5 + 2 + 4 + 4 + 5 = 30.
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Hi All,
The observant feat gives +5 to both passive perception and passive investigation.
The level 9 inquisitive rogue ability gives advantage on both perception and investigation checks if moving at 1/2 speed. Circumstances that give advantage on checks are treated as a +5 modifier to passive skill checks.
So a level 9 observant inquisitive rogue with expertise in perception and investigation with a 14 in each stat (+2 mod) would have passive perception and investigation skills of
10 +5 +5 + 10 = 30
Correct? That rogue won't be missing much of anything I would think. He can also specifically do perception and investigation checks as a bonus action. With 10 bonus actions every minute, it seems to me that given even one minute of time for this character to figure something out, the DM should be using his passive investigation and perception scores very frequently. (Can an investigation check by a normal character be accomplished by taking a regular action? ... if that is the case then the character could actually get 20 perception/investigation checks in one minute).
DMG p237
"MULTIPLE ABILITY CHECKS
Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task."
In fact, the passive investigation score really only represents the AVERAGE result for this character. Given sufficient time, this character could potentially succeed on DC40 perception and investigation checks. However, with only a minute to look around the character should succeed on any DC30 perception or investigation check.
... all of this by choosing one archetype, one feat and expertise in skills that the rogue might well have chosen anyway.
It does sound a little like Sherlock Holmes (from "Sherlock", ideally) walking into a room and glancing around.
Fitting, I would think. I don't see anything absurd about it, either, other than the fact that it's very difficult to successfully hide against that character in combat. You say an archetype, a feat and expertise, as if they're something to sneeze at, but it's practically most of your meaningful choices geared towards perception/investigation.
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D&D Beyond FoundersActively using Perception or Investigation isn't just an action or bonus action.
The Eye for Detail ability is referring specifically to a check for hidden creature/object or find a clue.
There are numerous situations where using either of these skills may take longer, but could (should?) be resolved with a single roll.
It's very much up to the DM, based upon the scenario.
As an example, an inn has been robbed and the player character is going to look through all 12 of the rooms in the inn. The DM may well just ask for a single investigation check. There's no way that the character could check every room in a single action or bonus action, it just isn't going to happen. The DM may say, "it takes you about an hour to do a thorough search," and the player rolls a poor roll and the character finds nothing. If the player is convinced that there should be something there to find, the DM may allow them to roll again, likely spending another hour searching the inn.
Of course, the Eye for Detail ability should make this process a LOT quicker for an Inquisitive. They would spend a few seconds in each room, rather than a few minutes.
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Two differing sources of advantage do not add together - you either have advantage (a single +5 to passive checks) or you do not have advantage, there is no "double advantage" (a pair of +5s to passive checks).
(Brainfart corrected.)That said, yes a character can get a high enough passive score on those skills to basically never fail at them - this is by design. Investing character resources that could be used elsewhere on a particular thing makes the character actually good at it, rather than this edition of the game doing as some of the older editions have done and requiring maximum possible investment in a particular aspect of the character just to get roughly coin-toss odds of success at it.
The Observant feat doesn't give advantage, it gives a direct +5 bonus to the relevant passive scores. I see no reason it doesn't stack with the handling of Advantage in those scores (which translates to a +5 bonus).
Keep in mind, a lot of situations gives Perception and Investigation DisAdv.
So you auto cancel or those.
Great idea but your forgetting one critical detail.
If you using your passive perception your reliable talent doesn't apply. Your not making a d20 roll errgo you are not entitled to your guaranteed +10.
You would instead have a passive perception of: +5 (oberservant) +5 (stat) +10 (expertise) = 20.
You can either have your reliable talent (+10) or observant(+5) but you can never have both simultaneously.
That is not correct.
An Inquisitive Rogue with the Observant feat, using the 9th level Steady Eye feature, calculates their Passive Perception/Investigation as: 10 (base) + 5 (Observant) + X (Ability Score Modifier) + Y (Proficiency Bonus) + Y (Expertise Bonus) + 5 (Advantage, Steady Eye).
At 9th level, proficiency bonus is +4, and OP stated the ability score modifier is +2. They would have a Passive Perception/Investigation of: 10 + 5 + 2 + 4 + 4 + 5 = 30.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.